How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies? I'm having huge problems with a resolved goyf in combination with mana denial pressure.
Printable View
How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies? I'm having huge problems with a resolved goyf in combination with mana denial pressure.
Did a few matches today, be patient and prioritize Pyromancer
Hi all! i take this list from a mate and now i'm testing it, i think is really solid and strong. any advice?
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Innocent Blood
3 Standstill
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
2 DTT
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: ??
Anyone try a single Kolaghan's Command? I feel like if you can get Miracles into top-deck mode, even with a live Top, once they draw a Terminus you can force them to discard at instant speed before the Miracle trigger resolves.
I've run it as a 1-of. It's solid in that capacity, but I dump it with Brainstorm/Preordain as often as I search it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
"How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies?"
That is the question, isn't it? This deck is very good against Omni Show and strong against Miracles. There are strategies, such as Lands, which are difficult in the first game, but which are addressed via the sideboard.
The weakness of this deck, however, is Delver. BUG Delver is the easiest variant to handle, and that is even at best. The versions of Delver with lightning bolt are much more difficult.
At the SCG in Columbus, my record in the swiss was 7-1-1. The draw was to RUG Delver and the loss was to Grixis Delver (losing the the eventual winner). In the top eight, I lost to Grixis Delver. I'm still thinking about how best to address the Delver matchup.
The build I played had a greedy manabase, but was nearly a two-color deck. It used Black only for casting Cabal Therapy itself. Otherwise, the deck was just a blue-red control deck. And yes, play it as a control deck and not a tempo deck, despite the Gro-inspired manabase.
The real threat out of Delver are the creatures. They can be too fast and too well-defended. And the Grixis delver deck in particular is designed to be resilient to removal.
Against RUG Delver, I have been thinking that Edict effects are strong; Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict are very interesting options. Of course, the mean introducing Black as a main color again, but that isn't the end of the world.
Things are more difficult against Grixis Delver. Edict effects get much worse against Young Pyromancer. Targeted removal doesn't do anything against True Name Nemesis. And cards like Marsh Casualties are embarrassing against everyone's favorite Zombie Fish. It isn't an easy problem to solve.
I agree completely. A list with 4 ponder 3+ preordain, obviously, looses tempo early to cast cantrips. Maindeck Snare is actually a very good one off. Maindeck Etruth is also not bad in these MUs. Maindeck Gurmag/Tasigur is also better than Tnn in that consideration. I think that a diverse sideboard, packed with one offs is the way to go. One offs like :Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atog Lord
. Hydroblast - very good against yp and against every urX delver strat anyway
. Edict - Goyf Delver Gurmag tnn and goose solo, I'm talking about Iblood that costs 1, not about diabolic edict.
. Etruth - Goyf Gurmag delver
. Marsh - resolved yp tnn
The one other thing to consider is nexus in the infect MU. The sideboard has to take it into account, be it murderous cut, rakdos charm, needle or blood moon.
So these answers have to have a very low cmc because YP will handle the situation when it comes to late game. YP protected means the MU is won.
Another way to do it is to keep some number of forces or change your list so that it can handle basics. But this can actually be worse.
Tarmogoyf + Wasteland is almost gamebreaking. We can't play around daze at that point. You need Dig + bolt if he didn't play sorceries^^ (bolt goyf then cast dig, wether he has daze or not).Quote:
Waikiki
How do you guys generally beat Delver strategies? I'm having huge problems with a resolved goyf in combination with mana denial pressure.
I really like the list without pyromancer why no one talk about it? XD
Inviato dal mio ALE-L21 utilizzando Tapatalk
Link to list?
i took this list for testing:
1 tombstalker
2 snapcaster mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
Instants [20]
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [8]
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Lands [18]
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
and went against a good fish player with UR monastery (so a very similar deckbuild with stifle and monastery and full set of dig)
the result was 2-2 on mainboard 2-3 sidein
All matches was very close, and wasteland more than once wins the game
My opinion is that snapcaster is too slow in this deck, 3 mana open are too much and flashbacking a bolt is normally the option. Aniway in this matchup is a 2x1 situation.
Tombstalker is enormous but BB in cc is too difficult to cast, i will try the zombiefish next
DRS are simply not so powerful, ok you eat graveyard, fix mana, and i win a match for a 2 life point gain, but i don't know if is the right choice. Monastery Swiftspear is a very nice card to consider in rush.
At the moment the manabase is very poor, DRS sometimes fix it but at turn one sometimes i prefer ponder/brainstorm/delver
The very question is the side, against delver decks i should love something lyke pyroclasm or maybe a bigger creature like goyf. Also snare works well but are 1 x 1
Maybe in green there is something that could help?
This isn't the correct thread. This is grixis Control. What you're looking for is Grixis Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulabnar
Also, the Pyromancer-free Standstill list belongs in the Standstill thread....
It does not exist, so i choose this one, even because it sounds strange to me that a first place in SCG tournament deck was not in Decks To Beat forum section.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Grixis Tempo AKA Grixis Delver
Grixis Landstill
Both have been in New and Developmental for a good while. If you want to see them in Established, write a Primer.
Congrats on the bump to DTB guys!
I've really enjoyed playing this deck so far, saw a version on Modo with 17 lands but a full 16 cantrips, has anyone else tested it?
To be fair, the website that we receive our data from lists Grixis Delver as Grixis Pyromancer, so neither is truly a DTB unless you count the Swiftspear/Delver versions and the Snapcaster/Dack/TNN versions as the same deck. Should we still try to keep the discussions separate despite the categorization of tcdecks?Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Example: Brett Schmuckler's deck from Columbus 5k listed as Grixis Pyromancer:
Creatures [13]
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
Instants [19]
3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [11]
1 Forked Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Lands [17]
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sudden Demise
1 Thoughtseize
I don't play this deck, so I don't have much of an opinion, but frankly, if a deck has Delvers and Dazes, I would call it Tempo.
To be fair, no one here is going to work on Delver variants when they have their own thread while this thread is definitely where people are packing Counterspell instead of bugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I took this for a spin on Monday. I had been playing a Delver version, but I felt like it was too reactive with Pyromancer and I really wanted to play a basic Island in a deck with Wastelands, as I felt it gave me the best matchups against the common decks at my store: Omni, D&T, and MUD. (And Enchantress, but I dodged that this week.) The Island helps against the mana-denial decks, while the Wastelands were crucial to beating cards like Port and Boseiju.
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
1 Fire // Ice
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Dimir Charm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Plague
Beat Jund Depths 2-1 in round 1, he couldn't stick a Liliana or Smallpox to kill True-Name game 1, comboed turn 3 in game 2 and in game 3 I extracted his Loams on turn 2.
Beat Omni 2-1 in round 2. Game 1 he had a hand clogged with Cunning Wishes, eventually felt like he had to use them, grabbed pact of negation to counter something I did, and forgot to pay. Game 2 I shredded his hand with Therapy and rode Pyro and buddies to victory.
Lost to Deadguy Ale 0-2 in round 3. He had it all in a way I never do when I play DGA. Win die roll, Scrubland into Deathrite into Waste-Stoneforge into Bob that flips fetchlands into Tasigur. Game 2, I have to mull to 5 (7 had no lands, 6 had trop-volc-4 cards with B in the cost) and he even Vindicated my land. I wasn't even mad.
Beat Miracles 2-0 in round 4. Standard miracles match, didn't let him resolve a Counterbalance until he was on 9 and I double-bolted him and Fired him with CB on the stack, then he had to scoop.
I'm a fan of this deck, but it seems really soft to anything non-blue other than, like, Elves or maybe Dredge. I can see why it's a good choice for an SCG.
Tropical Island is a total trap, though. Would rather have another basic. Maybe board the Trop to cast Grudge postboard or nuke creatures with DRS when that's relevant, but I think I would rather have Badlands more often (which also allows Hymn to Tourach).
I've felt the same while playing the deck...then you're paired vs Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis