War of the Spark

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

How in the world are you guys talking about the Karn and not the Teferi?

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Teferi will see a lot of play in standard esper as a way to stop reclamation from casting Nexus or other stuff. That + dovin’s veto makes esper the dominant deck in standard i think.

Karn in legacy however, is insane. These are the lines i look forward to:

Turn 1 ancient tomb, liquimetal coating
Turn 2 city of traitors, karn, striplock with +1

Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn -2 tormods crypt -> game 1 fighting chance against graveyard decks.

Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn
Turn 3 sol land mycosynth lattice lock
Turn 4 +1 animate lattice, attack for 6 until u win
Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn, any silver bullet or Sword of X Y which ever color your opponent plays

Or

Karn -2 get back whatever was Swords to Plowshared

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

Your argument basically boils down that Teferi is not a win-con which is rather obvious. But just because it doesn't screw your opponents plan and directly win the game doesn't mean its not going to be a great card against control decks. Once he's on the table he allows your win-cons to resolve and avoid being removed. That's why I think resolving one will make you win the match-up. I will be interested to see how this ends up. I definitely see this at least as a main stay sideboard card in any deck that can make blue and white mana. I could be wrong.

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Well, you missed one of my intervening replies, so indeed, yes, the fact that it is not a win-con on it's own is an issue. But your framing of it as if there is simply nothing a Miracles deck could do. Your own words are "What are they going to do at that point?" So, I point out several things they can do and you seem to just handwave that away, instead framing my point as being it's only the case that Teferi is "not a win-con."

I mean, frankly it seems to me that you are being somewhat disingenuous. I never said Teferi was unplayable. In fact, by asking for the "case for his playablity" is am presupposing that the answer is not already defined! I do think Teferi is playable. I do think it will see play. But I don't think it will be as useful as the case is being made here. There are many matchups where he won't do much, of which I think that vs. Grixis is one, because of REB, because of Bolt, because of a bunch of factors really. I think he is likely a sideboard card in all likely hood and likely not as OP as it might seem on paper.

Damn, forgot all about Liquimetal Coating. Weren't there a couple of almost but not quite there decks that tried to take advantage of that when it got printed? I'd imagine NewKarn pushes that over the edge into play-ability, especially given that he can find it out of your board.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Damn, forgot all about Liquimetal Coating. Weren't there a couple of almost but not quite there decks that tried to take advantage of that when it got printed? I'd imagine NewKarn pushes that over the edge into play-ability, especially given that he can find it out of your board.

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Cards like abrade and kolaghans command that have modality help with the playability of maindekc liquimetal coatings. However, even if u decided to run zero coatings, you can still strip lock if u put one of them in your sideboard. You really only need karn in the maindeck and that’s what makes him so badass. He does so much.

Also, painter servant and grindstone are both artifacts. He can find the missing piece, or both pieces should you want something otheer than lattice. Another 2 card artifact combo is thopter and sword.

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Originally Posted by H

Well, you missed one of my intervening replies, so indeed, yes, the fact that it is not a win-con on it's own is an issue. But your framing of it as if there is simply nothing a Miracles deck could do. Your own words are "What are they going to do at that point?" So, I point out several things they can do and you seem to just handwave that away, instead framing my point as being it's only the case that Teferi is "not a win-con."

I mean, frankly it seems to me that you are being somewhat disingenuous. I never said Teferi was unplayable. In fact, by asking for the "case for his playablity" is am presupposing that the answer is not already defined! I do think Teferi is playable. I do think it will see play. But I don't think it will be as useful as the case is being made here. There are many matchups where he won't do much, of which I think that vs. Grixis is one, because of REB, because of Bolt, because of a bunch of factors really. I think he is likely a sideboard card in all likely hood and likely not as OP as it might seem on paper.

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It's not a hard lock but it does cripple them. I feel like they would have to answer it to really win the game. I never said you believed it was unplayable. Maybe you're reading that into what I'm saying. All I'm saying is, if I had to bet, its going to be a sideboard card for sure. That being said, a sideboard card frequently ends up being OP in certain matchups. That's kind of the point of those cards. Maybe we're largely in agreement and just arguing semantics. :laugh:

So I noticed that combined with Sol Lands, Interplanar Beacon could really help with casting 3 mana walkers turn 2. And if we're getting spicy with Liquid Metal Coating we can imagine something with Dack Fayden theft.

Turn 1 - Sol Land + Liquid Metal Coating
Turn 2 - Interplanar Beacon + Dack Fayden --> Steal Permenant.

Imagining it with Karn, and if you're playing this weird stompy shell to accel into planeswalkers, why not JTMS? Hell, you can play this nightmare:

8 Sol Lands
4 Interplanar Beacon
10 Lands

4 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond

4 Dack Fayden
4 JTMS
4 New Karn

4 Liquid Metal Coating
4 Chalice

4 Force of Will
8 Blue Cards above 1 CMC

And that is somehow 60 cards :tongue:

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Cards like abrade and kolaghans command that have modality help with the playability of maindekc liquimetal coatings. However, even if u decided to run zero coatings, you can still strip lock if u put one of them in your sideboard. You really only need karn in the maindeck and that’s what makes him so badass. He does so much.

Also, painter servant and grindstone are both artifacts. He can find the missing piece, or both pieces should you want something otheer than lattice. Another 2 card artifact combo is thopter and sword.

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The issue here is that Strip-locking your opponent gets less and less useful as the game goes on. So, you likely "get" a Midrange or Control sort of deck with this from time to time, but Tempo is likely going to punish you hard for Karn not really doing anything to protect himself or you. Note that all the lines you suppose are wide open to Daze and Spell Pierce and you can bet that Delver decks will pack those in the event that this seems to be "a thing." Not to mention Stifle.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying that Karn isn't a good or decent card, just that he likely isn't all that much more powerful than Scion of Urza in the long run. Granted, he does seem to make Painter more interesting, but that is a totally different situation, since Scion isn't really "made" for combo decks and new Karn is obviously better there.

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Originally Posted by H

The issue here is that Strip-locking your opponent gets less and less useful as the game goes on. So, you likely "get" a Midrange or Control sort of deck with this from time to time, but Tempo is likely going to punish you hard for Karn not really doing anything to protect himself or you. Note that all the lines you suppose are wide open to Daze and Spell Pierce and you can bet that Delver decks will pack those in the event that this seems to be "a thing." Not to mention Stifle.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying that Karn isn't a good or decent card, just that he likely isn't all that much more powerful than Scion of Urza in the long run. Granted, he does seem to make Painter more interesting, but that is a totally different situation, since Scion isn't really "made" for combo decks and new Karn is obviously better there.

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The spell pierce and stifle argument goes for all planeswalkers of course, and yes it is a thing. You dont have to keep striplocking, Once you hit 6 mana and u know the path is safe u just stop striplocking and kill the opponent with lattice. If you’re being swarmed there’s stuff like contagion engine (which proliferates his loyalty back), and otherwise there is duplicant for bigger threats or oblivion stone to nuke the board.. duplicant is a nice singleton against show and tell too. Use the other -2 for a needle on sneak attack. If you dont want to go that high in casting cost you could even argue for serrated arrows, or ensnaring bridge if protecting karn is really that important. There are soooo many ways to sideboard yourself out of hell. Yes, spell pierce is a thing, but when karn resolves you’re going to have some game

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3LLOcAW4AARItk.png:large

Looks like the dead gods of Amonkhet come back as Terminator zombies. That's pretty sweet lore-wise.

The Wanderer also seems to be a pretty big deal, whoever it is.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Looks like the dead gods of Amonkhet come back as Terminator zombies. That's pretty sweet lore-wise.

The Wanderer also seems to be a pretty big deal, whoever it is.

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Yeah, except Hazoret, because apparently she never died in the lore.

My guess would be Espeth is the Wanderer. But I'm sure Wizards will think up something way worse. Too bad her card is not at all playable, because I dig the Paneswalker-Sia look if the art.

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Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uplo...hampion_EN.png

This probably costs a little too much for Legacy but it does so many things.

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This seems sweet in red stompy/prison type shells. Being able to toss bad or duplicate cards to both get new ones and generate mana for doing more the same turn seems pretty good unless I'm just totally bonkers...

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Originally Posted by H

Yeah, except Hazoret, because apparently she never died in the lore.

My guess would be Espeth is the Wanderer. But I'm sure Wizards will think up something way worse. Too bad her card is not at all playable, because I dig the Paneswalker-Sia look if the art.

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Never said anything about Hazoret. She isn't mentioned on said picture, either, for this very reason.

Elspeth is the most common guess, although it's hard to say how her going to the underworld turned her into a Katana-wielding "Pssh, nothing personal, kid" swordswoman. I have my doubts about that. Some people think it's an avatar of Emrakul based on her depiction on Shrine of the Forsaken Gods, but that seems pretty silly, too.

My guess it's a new, unrelated character that acts as a plot hook for the future.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Never said anything about Hazoret. She isn't mentioned on said picture, either, for this very reason.

Elspeth is the most common guess, although it's hard to say how her going to the underworld turned her into a Katana-wielding "Pssh, nothing personal, kid" swordswoman. I have my doubts about that. Some people think it's an avatar of Emrakul based on her depiction on Shrine of the Forsaken Gods, but that seems pretty silly, too.

My guess it's a new, unrelated character that acts as a plot hook for the future.

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I didn't mean to imply you did, just saying that strangely (to me), it won't be a "complete cycle" of Zombie Gods.

I mean, you are right, it is likely it is someone new. Hopefully she eventually gets a playable card though where the art doesn't suck.

I figure she's Serra, the whip/sword thing she's got has what look like feathers/feathery images in it. And the card fits Serra in every way but angels.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I figure she's Serra, the whip/sword thing she's got has what look like feathers/feathery images in it. And the card fits Serra in every way but angels.

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Serra died ages ago in a random Planeswalker duel after she lost her will to live after her lover died, IIRC.

Edit: One argument for Elspeth might be that the Wanderer exiles big creatures, so she might be the hard counter for indestructible zombie gods, lore-wise. She's a godslayer after all. Did she take Godsend with her to the underworld or did Helioth take it from her after he killed her?

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Originally Posted by Barook

Serra died ages ago in a random Planeswalker duel after she lost her will to live after her lover died, IIRC.

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Right so it would be totally dumb if it was Serra, hence it's probably Serra.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Right so it would be totally dumb if it was Serra, hence it's probably Serra.

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Well, it would actually jive with why they finally gave her a card in the Modern Horizons set, if so.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Teferi will see a lot of play in standard esper as a way to stop reclamation from casting Nexus or other stuff. That + dovin’s veto makes esper the dominant deck in standard i think.

Karn in legacy however, is insane. These are the lines i look forward to:

Turn 1 ancient tomb, liquimetal coating
Turn 2 city of traitors, karn, striplock with +1

Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn -2 tormods crypt -> game 1 fighting chance against graveyard decks.

Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn
Turn 3 sol land mycosynth lattice lock
Turn 4 +1 animate lattice, attack for 6 until u win
Or

Turn 2 sol land, karn, any silver bullet or Sword of X Y which ever color your opponent plays

Or

Karn -2 get back whatever was Swords to Plowshared

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https://images.app.goo.gl/Uf2FRJmeuDEjAbBe8

Where does the Karn spoiler come frome? I thought Wizards had switched to a "except for mana abilities" templating for this.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Where does the Karn spoiler come frome? I thought Wizards had switched to a "except for mana abilities" templating for this.

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https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...t-simic-legend