[Deck] Suicide Black

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The Engineered Plague thing is a guess that you aren't going to see as big of a Goblins decrease as you think. Plus, after testing, Plague is the difference between a highly favorable UBW Fish matchup and a slightly unfavorable one. Plague on Wizards is what convinced me to maindeck it over Therapy. Before, the build was the reverse. 3 Maindeck Therapies and 1 in board.

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Yeah, I would rather play therapies because of the number of creatures you have, but I guess if you can get 2x plagues out naming goblin/angel you can be safe from the flash match-up. But then again, its hard getting 2/3 plagues and they can just echoing truth you.

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Any reason you hate any of the cards you listed? Anurid's the best he's ever been as, like you said, there's going to be a decrease in goblins. Carnophage curves out beautifully in combination with a turn one Hymn or Shade or Anurid on a Ritual, and follows a Duress nicely if you get a Mox. The single Giant is drawbackless unless you anticipate everybody else running Leyline of the Void, in which case, cut it for something else. Akuba is fantastic against both combo and control and cuts down on the occasional problem of having more mana than you know what to do with.

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Yes, well:

Carnophage: I hate to run less than 4, and because your deck lacks removal, he becomes a wall that pings you for 1 per turn when your opponents have 3/3s and 4/4s etc. (Thats why if you ran therapy in conjunction with all of your black guys, it could be better)

Anurid: Meh, your running tons of creatures also. I guess his life loss isn't game breaking most of the time.

Wicked Akuba: The main deal is your not playing removal, which means he is just a bear. Of course, if you played things like diabolic etc, he would be much better. I like drekavac or Nakaya shade better here. (Nakaya is 1 power less than nantuko, but that part is pretty negligent) Or how about slithering shade?! Slither is very good with drekavac, gathan etc. Yes, and I was talking about a leyline or mox you draw into that becomes useless.

Anyways, I would love to see the "hellbent" version of the deck. Anurid can be replaced with Drekavac, and maybe we'll even see slithering shade in action lol.

I think we'll go back to Therapy after the GP, assuming Goblins completely bombs out. We just kind of guessed Goblins would still be there in force and the plagues might be necessary.

The hellbent version is much more fun, heh. Gathan Raiders and Drekavac are in force, and we're trying Putrid Cyclops out currently, but not sure about him.

Ok, Blackguard, first of all I never said Red Death was inferior. I merely said that I prefer Suicide Black and that there were certain aspects of Red Death that I don't care for, so stop putting words in my mouth. Secondly, I mainly posted that because I'm sick of seeing posts about Red Death in the Suicide thread since there is NO POINT. They are significantly different decks, as you've already pointed out and there is no reason to post about them here. In regards to what you were saying, I'll concur that Pithing Needle is probably not as significant and that you can play around the whole nonbasic issue. Secondly, you're telling me that you want to rely on a single sideboard card to fix all your problems with the creatures that Bolt and Chain Lightning are supposed to remove. I don't see how you think 4 copies of Dystopia can really stop 4 Werebear and 4 Mongoose, especially when they run how many counterspells? I also find it amusing that you just recommended on the Red Death board that they put Diabolic Edict maindecked to deal with threats that you admitted could not be dealt with using the removal currently in the deck. As far as the whole bit about Chalice, it doesn't hurt Suicide very much at all considering the only cards you deny yourself are Dark Rit and Duress and generally the 1 point Chalice you're resolving more than makes up for your lack of Duress. On the other hand, Red Death loses Chain Lit, Lit Bolt, Seal of Fire, Dark Rit (If they run it still), and Duress. Given this, I'd say they are much more significantly disadvantaged since a 1 point Chalice effectively removes all your removal spells plus your added reach. Honestly I don't really care anymore since it seemed that people were trying to remove the entire disruption base from Red Death that was handed down by Suicide, effectively breaking any ties between the two decks. My recommendation: stick with Red Death if you like it so much and I'll stick to Suicide Black.

Have any of you considered using skittering skirge over that lone wretched anurid spot? Skirge won't give you life loss with Empty the Warrens and would even provide a 3 power flying attacker for you.

The downside is of course you can never really play him second turn if you have another threat in hand. But, with the high density of two-drops in the deck, this shouldn't be that much of a problem. You could cast Nantuko Shade, Rotting Giant, Hymn to tourach second turn then follow up with a third turn Skirge. Or first turn ritual, Negator then second turn Skirge. Both instances would give you fast clocks. Thus, there would be no need to cast additional threats after skirge at least until your initial attackers are removed.

Lastly, I think an adoption of maindeck duresses, hymns (which the deck already does) and Leylines of the Void will be the way to go if we even want a chance against hulk flash.

I believe a retraction is in order for what i said about negator. I have tested it briefly on MWS and its fucking nuts. It has replaced the tempo parasite shade in my build, and i cant honestly see me ever playing sui again without it... so to blackguard, anwar, Khurtz... you were right and i was wrong.

I also tested red death... but i did not like it. 4 diabolic and 3 ghastly demise works perfectly for me. Im not saying that red death is inferior to sui black, im just saying i did not like it.

Here is the list ive been testing and im pretty satisfied with it.

17 swamp
3 wasteland

4 carnophage
4 sarcomancy
4 hippie
3 Negator

4 Hymn to tourach
4 diabolic edict
3 duress
3 sinkhole
3 ghastly demise

4 Dark rit

Sideboard:
4 E plauge
3 null rod
3/4 planar void/leyline
2/3 contaigon
1/3 dystopia

First off if you have not tested zombies, i strongly suggest you do. It wrecks goblins by stopping lackey and trading with piledriver. Against fish it keeps them from attacking with everything but avenger / creatures pro mom but then you snipe them with edict and demise. There just average against thresh because once they have thresh or tarmogyf there useless.

Im not so sure about dystopia... It seems like its only good against thresh, but that may be enough because thresh is a pretty bad matchup.

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Originally Posted by blackguard90

Is this a budget issue? When there is a sui black T8 in the next major tournament, i'll consider your claim that RD is inferior.

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Oh and there is a sui black deck in top 8 of the Grand prix... 900 people in attendance i believe, and he has a good matchup for chance at top 4. Now consider

I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

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Originally Posted by MattH

I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

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I wouldnt know where to put it. I could run 2 dystopia and 1 duress, but im not realy sure. If i did that my sideboard would be this

4 E plauge
3 null rod
3 planar void
2 contaigon
2 dystopia
1 duress

Here is Bill Starks list that T8ed the GP:

Main Deck
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

SB
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Engineered Plague

With 8 leyline, I hope he plays Flash.

The fourth Wasteland is probably better than the third Sinkhole, and the fourth Duress is probably better than a Null Rod.

Ok so bill got top 4 out of a 900 person field... can people finally stop putting down sui black, i believe it has proven its viability.

I dont know if i like waste over sink... waste costs a land drop, sink costs using 2 mana. Also i like null rod because its good against combo and affinity. Dystopia has proven less useful.

While I absolutely love just about any variation of mono-black. I can't agree with you technogeek. Bill's version is well tuned and an excellent meta-game choice for this GP. If this meta continues to exist then perhaps it will be a viable top tier deck. However, I think when most people put mono-black aggro down (damn their callous souls), they were referring to a meta that wasn't defined by hulk flash, where nearly every deck packs sideboarded leylines and looks like a quirky variation of fish (I exaggerate, but I think you get the point). I for one, will be surprised if something isn't done about flash come June 1st. At that time I heavily doubt the viability of MBA being anything more than a tier 2 deck, even if it is finely tuned and piloted a skilled player.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

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Well his creature base/ control package was designed to deal with the flash meta... when flash is banned, we can all go back to playing confidants and negators.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards.

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I've been testing this build a lot lately, and Unmask does wonders here. Plus, against very few decks do you need to ever put out more than 1-2 threats.

And while, yes, you may die to Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm isn't viable in a format with Flash. Also, don't forget, it's not that hard to open with Swamp, Unmask, Sarco/Carno, and follow it next turn with Swamp, Ritual, Jitte, Equip, Swing. Now you're out of Pyroclasm and red removal range.

This build was well thought out and a fantastic choice. It anticipated a large field of Flash and Fish decks packing White and thereby relying very heavily on Swords to Plowshares as its sole removal piece. It also was well equipped to handle goblins with 4 Plagues, 4 Jittes, Unmask, and 8 1-drops that handle a Lackey barring Pyrokinesis or double Fanatic.

It's also worth noting that the build can function entirely on two Swamps, but is capable of functioning well if it draws a flood of them due to having 12 pumpers. This deck was built to avoid mana screw over a long series of matches, which was the smart thing to do at a tournament this size.

As for getting rid of problem cards, since when has Suicide Black -ever- been able to get rid of problem cards? Outside of like, you know, Dystopia. Suicide Black is a deck that makes as many other decks as possible have answers to what it packs, not the reverse, and this is no exception.

Bill Stark is actually making use of a very old Hatred-Suicide Black creature shell. The deck ran 8 one cc zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy), 8 two cc shadow creatures (dauthi slayer and dauthi horror) and 4 copies of Phyrexian Negator. The deck also ran duress and unmask.

The shadow creatures are easily replaced by the pump knights in Bill Stark's deck. Pump Knights have powerful evasion similar to shadow in the form of flying and prot from white and are actually better than said shadow creatures as pump knights can easily end the game with enough mana.

Nantuko Shade replaces Phyrexian Negator. That being said, isn't Bill Stark using too many pump knights? Between Nantuko Shade and 8 Pump Knights, that's certainly a lot of creatures to funnel your mana into.

I'm thinking dropping Nantuko Shade for Phyrexian Negator. This will probably make the deck worse but then again, it will make the deck less reliant on getting to critical mana. It will also allow you to deal a lot of damage even when your mana screwed. Plus first turn Unmask-Swamp-Ritual-Negator is gg.:smile:

I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

Here is my take on Zilla's proposed changes:

1. I agree absolutely. Negators belong in the main. The question is whether you use it over pump knights or shades. I prefer using them over the shades as pump knights are an invaluable tool against white-based Fish decks and Threshold. You really need some form of evasion/prot from white in the deck to act as a hard remove threat against aforementioned decks. Against Flash though, Shade+Negator is much better.

Going down to three jittes is...interesting. I don't know, I really like the 4 jittes main. They make the aggro-control matchup that much better. Three might be the optimal number however. Tomb of Urami is also interesting and could be useful if the rest of your team gets destroyed. I'd also love to add in a copy of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in here over a swamp.

2. I disagree with Cabal Therapy. The deck really doesn't want to be sacrificing your creatures. This isn't the Rock where you can afford to sacrifice creatures to gain an advantage. You want to disrupt then end the game quickly with fast beats. The discard package is already pretty tight. Adding more or replacing existing components is subpar, IMO.

I'm with Zilla on Therapy. I really like it here. The question on what to replace is a difficult one though. I almost always lean to Hymn over duress, unless the deck can't support BB, but Duress makes Therapy even better, and frees up that 2cc spot for a creature drop, so I don't know...

I have to go against the majority here and recommend running Dark Confidant. If he catches a Bolt, I'm happy that didn't hit my 'gator. The same applies to blockers even when he doesn't trade - if you get to attack with him, he has at least replaced himself. One thing worth mentioning is that he makes your acceleration better - with 4 Rituals, 4 Moxes he truly shines.

I want every threat that costs more than 1 to be game-altering, be it through sheer power or abilities. Playable cards for which this applies include Nantuko Shade, Dark Confidant, Hypnotic Specter and Phyrexian Negator. Wicked Akuba and Flesh Reaver have the potential but aren't consistently good.

Re Pump Knights: What's the use of being unplowable when there are so many juicier targets for spot removal anyway? Stromgald Crusader has the benefit of keeping Mystic Enforcers and Exalted Angels at bay, but that's still pushing it. Otherwise, I think the Pump Knight inflation reflects a screwy metagame that will go away soon.
Generally I'd rather scream 'Answer this(,) Bitch!' once per turn until they run out of answers than having removal-proof creatures. Which shouldn't take long given that I'm ripping their hand to shreds.

Whether or not pump knights are the product of a screwy metagame and will go away in a month is a topic for another thread. What is relevant to this thread is that pump knights is good in the present metagame. The ability to evade stp and swing past meddling mages, serra avatars, mother of runes, etc is simply too good to pass up.

Like I said, I don't like Cabal Therapy here. It IS hard to cut cards for therapy as Stark's disruption suite is already pretty optimal.

The more I think about it, the more I like Negators here. I really need to fit them in somehow...

Dark Confidant is good, I agree. Just what do you cut? The zombies are valuable one drops, the pump knights and shades are fast clocks. You really don't want to cut disruption if you want to stand toe-to-toe with Flash. The Confidants, while good theoretically, would only dilute the deck as is.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

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Didn't we establish a while ago that "Flying" was rediculously powerful in the format? Sure, First Strike is nice, but it's not providing evasion. Oh, and Hymn is definately cut if the decision is between Duress and Hymn, as Duress is too sick against combo to remove. Plus, Hymn is double black.

So, here's what we have now:

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Carnophage
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Sarcomancy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual