i dont know maybe it works i dont really like the cyclops though seems werid to play him and yes your right about the pyroclasm and that stuff. there isnt any better 3 drops instead of him?
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i dont know maybe it works i dont really like the cyclops though seems werid to play him and yes your right about the pyroclasm and that stuff. there isnt any better 3 drops instead of him?
Thoughtbound Primoc, Sulpher Elemental, and Lavacore Elemental if you like taking risks.Quote:
Originally Posted by boris23
Thoughtbound Primoc only has a power of two and can screw you if your opponent plays Dark Confidant, Mangara of Corondor, or whatever. On the upside, it has evasion and dodges Earthquakes.
Sulpher Elemental's only draw back is the power of two. However, it does have Flash and Split Second, in addition to the advantage over white decks.
Lavacore Elemental is useless with out another creature connecting. It is the biggest choice and well above the curve.
First off, I really like the deck. It's a really cool idea, and it looks like a strong metagame choice at the moment. Just a heads up, I am relatively new to the format, so if my suggestions make no sense I'm just being ignorant, and I'd love to understand why I'm wrong.
looking at the list in the original post:
Dragon Stompy 2.0 created by Tacosnape
//Mana (26)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
(Creatures - 18)
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bloodrock Cyclops
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Arc-Slogger
(Spells - 16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB:
3 Smash
4 Boil
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon
I would be inclined to make the following changes:
-1 FTK
-1 Rolling Earthquake
-1 Jitte
-3 mountains
+1 RazorCore/Arc Slogger
+1 SoFI
+1 Demonfire/Molten Disaster
+3 fetchlands
Reasoning behind these choices:
FTK just isn't very good in the format right now. The only creature you really need it to deal with is Goyf, and by the time you play this there's a good chance it's too late. There are just better choices, and it's almost as easy for you to have 5 mana turn 2/3 as it is for you to have 4 mana, so I think it's worth the slight change in numbers.
Jitte is legendary, so I'm uncomfortable running 4 copies of it. SoFI is the best replacement you'll get for Jitte while evading the legend rule, and this is just a personal change.
I think that Rolling Earthquake, while amazing in some cases, isn't something you necessarily want to see twice a game, especially when you deal so much damage to yourself with lands and such. a singleton X spell gives you outlets for your double lands and seethings songs if you happen to draw it. Especially since you seem to tend to empty your hand pretty quickly, this seems like it'd be an amazing late game topdeck that'd steal some games you had no right winning. It's another personal touch, but I don't think it could hurt.
You're really dependent on drawing gas off the top of the deck after the first few turns, and I think some fetchlands will help that a little. I understand not wanting the full compliment, but using a few can't hurt.
All in all, it seems like a solid build of a nice deck, and the only other comment I have are some potential replacements for Cyclops:
Arms Dealer. Not the best beater, but it'd help clear the board in some situations. I don't think it's a great replacement, but certainly not too bad
Barbarian Bully. It could be worse. It's a pseudo 4/4 for 3. Even without pumping it, it trades with Piledriver and Confidants and such, and with a pump it has a chance to trade with Mongeese and 'Goyfs, as well as being a pretty decent clock on it's own. This also gives you another outlet for Squee besides Razorcore.
Bogardan Firefiend wouldn't be bad for trading with stuff. It's not too good a beater, but it provides ample opportunites for trades and 2 for 1s.
Brothers Yamazaki have the potential to be amazing in that slot, and they aren't too much worse when you don't get two...could be worth a shot?
Those aren't too bad I don't think. Definitely not what you'd like out of a 3 drop, but it could be worse.
Again, just some small suggestions. I really like the deck, and can't wait to see where it goes.
yes i like the deck 2 and lavacore elemental should never be played i really hate that card. bogarden firefiend is kinda funny and i agree with the 3 jittes i usally play a deck with 4 and they sometimes get clogged up in my hand although jitte wins games but usally i end up discarding it to mask of memory and usally side one out.
Since you're going for Hellbent anyway, has it been determined if Gathan Raiders are superior to Blackrock Cyclops? On paper it certainly seems like it would be, 3 for a 2/2 is worse than Blackrock, but one can pitch Squee or spare land/mox to flip him for a 3/3 with no drawback and the potential to go 5/5. As a later game top deck he's a 5/5 for 5 which isn't anything to write home about, but seems no worse than a topdecked 3/3 for 3 that can't block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
I started picking up the cards for this, it seems like the strongest of the Chalice based decks.
I would really like to fit in a few trinispheres, proably 3. It's a really must-counter in the early game for basically any deck but Stax/FS/other 2 mana-land decks. Probably, I'd drop one Jitte and the 'Slogger/Masticore, but what else?
Also, Masticore is pretty awful as a topdeck, and it's pretty costly. Perhaps replace them fully with sloggers?
And in this format, FTK doesn't always have a target. Is there something else to fill that slot with, if you have a controlly/combo-y metagame?
I agree with slogger being better than Masticore, because then you can also cut Squee from the deck, and Squee is terrible.
You don't need Squee, Goblin Nabob for Razormane Masticore to be ridiculously good.
First of all, Razormane can swing into every creature in the format and, unless that creature has first strike, live. Worried about a 6/7 Tarmogoyf? Send 3 damage into it during the Draw Step and swing in.
It should be noted that the "Version 2.0" posted above is a completely outdated list, however.
If you're playing Pit Dragon (and probably even if you aren't) play Gathan Raiders. You typically have something you can pitch (extra mana sources, etc.) and a 5/5 for 3 is really, really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
He's big enough to tangle with a Tarmogoyf much of the time, and that in itself is pretty significant.
Flame-Tongue, on the other hand, is very, very poor in the most important matchup around, Threshold. He rarely kills a Tarmogoyf, can never kill a Goose or Dragon or threshed Enforcer. He also has a butt of 2, so he's less than good with Earthquake. And good luck playing him against Landstill.
Yeah, I have come to the same conclusions about FtK. I think it would be better as a more controlish card. Not sure which, but trinisphere could be good as a 3 of.
I've been testing (generic) Masticore over FTK and Arc-Slogger over Razormane Masticore, and I've been liking the results.
Because Masticore comes down a whole turn earlier sans Seething Song, there's a wider range of decisions you can make over what to pitch. In addition, Masticore survives damage-based removal better than Razormane, can pump out the same amount of damage-distributed, even- and gives you a sink for your mana when it "Hellbent"s you. It's better than FTK in that it wins Mongoose fights and at least draws Goyf ones, plus can drop on an empty board.
In the same way, Arc-Dlogger is a clock the same speed as Razormane, with the same-sized toughness, and the ability to throw at least 6-8 to the dome. The one problem is when you lack RR. For example, in a Mox+Tomb+City hand, which you can't cast slogger off of. Well, then you can imprint it, unlike Razormane.
Right now, the list i'm looking at is -4 Cyclops, +4 Gathan raiders -3 razormane, +2 Arc-slogger, -2 jitte, +3 trinisphere, -4 FTK, +4 Masticore. I like Jitte a ton, and would like to fit one more in at least.
Care to share your list with us, Tacosnape?
Have any of you guys considered Fire Imp? It seems like a sexy 3 drop, no?
Seems pretty bad when a lot of people are even thinking of taking FtK out of the deck.
The problem with Fire Imp is that, as a mini-FTK, it has the same problems as its bigger brother, excapet more so:
- It doesn't do anything versus Threshold.
- It's absolute garbage versus creatureless decks.
- As a nonblack creature with low toughness, it folds in a stiff breeze.
Not to mention that in a deck where one creature should be able to take the opponent out, that a 2/1 for 3 is uninspiring. Oh, and it dies to Rolling Earthquakes of your own, which is not good.
Yes please show the list Taco.
What is the best number to drop Chalice at vs. Threshold?
In my testing, it seems like the number is one, for two reasons:
1) Thanks to your 8 :2:-lands and the Moxen, you have a pretty good chance of slipping it under Threshold's counter wall, especially on the play.
2) If they don't counter it, it shuts down the hidden power behind Thresh- the cantrip engine that rifles through their deck like a monkey on crack. Without Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, etc. they have a very tough time turning draw into fat or removal.
Yeah, I agree with you. I would, if you can, set it at 2 first turn. Tarmogoyf is a much bigger threat. I haven't done testing, but it seems that Goose is easier to take care of.
In order to set it at 2 first turn, you'd need.
:2: -Land
Mox
Mox
Red Card
Red Card
Chalice
Anything
This happens very rarely. Even then, it's not the best idea to shut down 2 mana. You hit, at best:
Tarmogoyf
Daze
Gaddock Teeg+Meddling Mage OR Fire/Ice + Werebear.
Predict
Compare to:
Ponder
Brainstorm
Portent
Serum Visions
Spell Snare
Nimble Mongoose
Pithing Needle
Swords to Plowshares OR Lightning Bolt
Sensei's Divining Top
Sure, 2 hits more threats. But here is the thing: yours are bigger. at best, they've got a 6/7 4-5 turns in. Compare that to your turn two 5/5 or 4/4. The real threat is letting them draw into/cast their removal.
Seething SOng...
I am just saying that Tarmogoyf can kick this decks ass.
If it's turn one, especially on the play (so you avoid Spell Snare and Brainstorm responses) I really think there is no question: you lay Chalice at 1 (double especially if it's post board).
This deck has almost no trouble dealing with Tarmogoyf if you throw out a Chalice @1 on turn 1. Here's why:
1) He's probably going to be small-ish. They will put lands in the yard (and maybe a Daze or Predict), and we put very little in the yard (usually either Seething Song or Rolling Earthquake) so a 2/3 or 3/4 Goyf is the usually as opposed to the best case scenario after a Chalice @1.
2) We are probably going to see 0-1 of them. Goyf is only a 4-of in Thresh. The reason he feels like an eight of is they draw half their fucking deck with cantrips. Cut off that draw, cut off more goyfs. Along with this, we cut off a lot of their access to boarded cards like Krosan Grip (this is why Chalice @2 kind of sucks because it only sticks for a few turns while they dig up a Grip).
3) We have a ton of ways to deal with Goyf, especially a 3/4 or smaller. We run Ftk, RazorCore, Pit Dragon, Rolling Earthquake, Hellbent Raiders and any creature with a Jitte (which Chalice @2 cuts you off from). The reason these don't normally do the trick against Goyf is because without a Chalice @1, they plow, counter, and needle our answers (as well as grow their Goyf). Cutt off all those Spell Snares, Plows, Needles, and dig mechanism and Goyf is really no huge deal.
Chalice @2 has become a much bigger deal against Threshold, but I still usually go for @1 first.