[Discussion] Hulk Flash

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I have to agree with this. Since FS isn't legal yet, Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation couldn't be fit into this yet for the upcoming GP. Even with those 2 cards though, this is still a combo deck, running 8 tutors (Mystical Tutor and Summoner's Pact) and 8 cards for protection (Force of Will and Pact of Negation) which isn't that far from most combo decks.

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I'd say it is far from other combo decks for two reasons: it's much less vulnerable to hate outside of countermagic, and you only have to resolve a single 2cc spell to win the game outright. What we've seen so far are unoptimized, sideboardless builds having some problems with blue-based aggro-control. Given the addition of the Pact cards from Future Sight, some time for real optimization, and the creation of a solid sideboard, I think the deck will be quite likely be able to deal with blue-based control. Only time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I haven't been checking the forums lately but it seems like everyone thinks this deck is absurdly broken. However from the little of this thread that I have read, it's still a combo deck that loses to blue-based aggro/control.

I'm not sure how popular this thing will get (because not everyone attending the GP will have read about this), but this is just 1 more reason to play UWb Fish. :wink:

Can someone post me a current decklist though? I wouldn't mind goldfishing this on MWS a few times to see how strong it actually is.

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The problem is that the combo is much, much cheaper and easier than any other combo out there.

First, it's a two card combo. That's the absolute minimum number of cards that can be involved and have it still technically be called a 'combo'. Also, neither of those cards needs to be in the graveyard to go off so it does not require a discard outlet (like Dragon needed, for instance).

Second, it costs two mana. Two. And only one is colored. And that one colored is in arguably the best color in game, blue. It bears repeating, so I'll say it again: TWO MANA. That's the second-to-least amount of mana you can pay for something. With the addition of one of any number of other cards (Petal, ESG, etc.) you can cast it first turn. Even without, you can cast it second turn off of normal basic landdrops.

Third, the deck has a crapton of tutors for the combo. Both the pre- and post-FS lists tend to run 6 tutors for the blue part and 4 tutors for the green part.

Fourth, it's very resilient. Dragon could be interrupted by STP. Storming off can be interrupting by a timely Chant or Abeyance. As soon as the Hulk trigger resolves, you win the game. It's also not vulnerable to a lot of the hate levelled at other combo decks.

So, to reiterate, we've got a two-card, two-mana combo that's easily tutorable and resilient to the most common forms of combo hate in the format, in probably the best color for draw/dig and protection.

This is easily one of the best combinations ever, and also one of the potentially most format wrecking. The versions that have to run, like, Worldly Tutor and Misdirection are pretty good, but the version with the Pacts are going to be insane because free protection + tutoring is just the nuts.

Just for thoughts, I'm reminded of the B/R list changes from 2004. Something about us losing Bazaar because it was creeping past the $200 mark already, but the core of the deck.....Dragon.....was the real card that got banned, because WoTC saw that he was the threat, not the reanimation.

I fully believe that if anything, they will ban Protean Hulk. Why? Because a simple banning of the KEY ABILITY of the deck is much easier than an errata that has to be reconfigured for MTGO as well as rewritten for physical cards, yet again.

So in all reality, I think those of us that love the idea of this deck sticking around, need to look into a replacement for Protean Hulk for abusive purposes. I'm highly doubting we can get anything to insta-kill like the DotV/Walls combo, but I'm really honestly doubting Flash is the true target of the banning.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

I have a question for whoever is willing to go the wotc forums. I am unclear about what exactly is happening with the DCI.

Is the wording in gatherer just preparation for the May 1st update? Is this the final wording on the card, or are they going to be re-errataing the card? Why remove the errata just to re-errata it?

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If you're referring to what Nihil (and I) read on the WotC boards, someone talked to "one of their Judge friends" and "that Judge friend" said Wizards was going to make more Oracle changes on May 1st. I'd believe it, too, if my BS detector wasn't going crazy.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Can someone post me a current decklist though? I wouldn't mind goldfishing this on MWS a few times to see how strong it actually is.

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Here's the list I've been using:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Island

4 Shifting Wall
4 Phyrexian Maurauder
4 Disciple of the Vault

4 Protean Hulk
1 Summoner's Pact
4 Flash

4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Serum Visions

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Pit
4 Engineered Explosives
...

This version is designed to combo off a little slower. The X-creatures are not dead draws, because you can often use them to flashback Therapy. Discarding all of your opponent's countermagic is doable, as is disrupting opposing combo decks. This list is pretty vulnerable to Chalice though, at least preboard.

One way to adapt this list for pre-FS is to replace Mystical Tutor for Lim-Dul's Vault.

I do pity the poor, poor format. Anyone have any concrete news when they're going to do something about this absurdity?

I was thinking about adding 2cc util creatures to take care of problem cards to the deck, but then it occurred to me, if you used a CIP creature, like Man-of-War, Meddling Mage, or Monk Realist, wouldn't, when the CIP ability went onto the stack, state-based effects be checked, killing all the dorks and thus putting the disciples triggers on the stack before any CIP abilities resolve? Correct me if I got that wrong. That means that any utility creatures you brought out with Hulk along with the kill for protection/answers would have to be continous effects themselves correct?

P.S. This deck is retarded.

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Third, the deck has a crapton of tutors for the combo. Both the pre- and post-FS lists tend to run 6 tutors for the blue part and 4 tutors for the green part.

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It's not only 4 tutors for the Hulk. I've been looking for pacts with Mystical Tutor too, because the actual tutor (Summoner's Pact) doesn't cost mana anyway.
So it's more like 12 ways to get the Hulk and 8 (or 10 if Merchant Scroll is used) to get Flash.

Technically 14 ways to find Hulk if you have Merchant, since you also have Merchant-->Mystical-->Summoner's Pact-->Hulk. However, I think it's alot more likely you'll have simply drawn a Pact or Hulk by that point, but it's nice to have options.

I definitly prefer the Gemstone Cavern version... indeed. Starting the game on the draw, EOT Mystical Tutor, turn 1: land, Flash. GG

And always with 4 Lotus Petal and 1 ESG.

Ok, this is the list I was testing with:

Hulk Flash

Lands (10)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island

Creatures (16)
4 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
4 Phyrexian Marauder

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Flash
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

I goldfished about 15 hands on MWS before playing any actual opponent's. My observations from the goldfishes were that the deck consistently had turn 2 wins and, very often, had countermagic backup. I did not get any turn 1 kills, and I completely fizzled in 2 games due to not drawing anything relevant in my opening 7 and nothing relevant after mulliganing down to 5 (Shifting Walls, countermagic, and Disciples, with no draw/tutors etc). I like the deck, I think it's extremely strong. I even won a game against an opponent on around turn 7 or 8 or something through 1 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy's, and 1 Hymn to Tourach (his clock sucked and I got 2 extremely lucky topdecks in Protean, then Flash).

Overall, I think the deck is very strong. I do not think the deck is the be-all end-all of the format. A few pieces of disruption put this deck in a bad spot. If the opponent has a relevant clock, they should win. That being said, I believe UGx Thresh (and especially UWb Fish) will still post favorable matchups against this deck. I do think this deck is stronger than the other combo options available though. I do not think this combo will be banned, I think this deck will simply shift the metagame into a much stronger focus on the already increasingly popular aggro/control variants (whether black-based or blue-based).

Hanni you didn't get the fast wins as you should NOT be using Chrome mox, but instead Elvish spirit guide. Also Gemstone caverns over the fetches , and simiian spirit guide over merchant scrol.
Try those changes and you will see a much faster and more consistent win.
The deck can go off way before any hate becomes an issue, yes it needs tuning but I have had an insane amount of turn0/1 wins.

I fail to see how you get an insane amount of turn 0 wins. To win on turn 1, you need to see Gemstone Cavern, ESG or SSG, Flash, and either Summoner's Pact or Protean Hulk. I can see drawing into that maybe 1 out of a 100 games or so but not with any regularity.

As far as turn 1 wins go... I find that the reason it's hard to do so is not because of Chrome Mox but because of Mystical Tutor. ESG and SSG do not provide colored mana sources, so it's not helping cast anything besides Flash or Merchant Scroll. I like Chrome Mox because it provides more oncolor mana sources. I also find that the fetchlands help improve consistency when I have only a mediocre hand (like a couple of Walls and 1 tutor) and a Brainstorm.

It seems like the ESG/SSG/Caverns build is maybe a bit faster but alot less consistent. I don't want to play a combo deck that tries to combo out turn 1 and fizzles. I'll try both versions though.

i also advocate playing as singleton ronom unicorn, has won me a couple games knocking out random hate like confinement.

gemstones solve that issue of the turn 0 blue mana requirement

the curve for me has prob ben

out of 30 games

turn 0 -2
turn 1 - 8
turn 2 - 13
turn 3- 5
turn later then 3 about 2

i agressivly mulligan with the deck as well, if i hgave more then 2 walls/discp and its an auto mulligan... 2 walls/discp is an auto mulligan if i cant see an easy turn 1 or 2 win.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I fail to see how you get an insane amount of turn 0 wins. To win on turn 1, you need to see Gemstone Cavern, ESG or SSG, Flash, and either Summoner's Pact or Protean Hulk. I can see drawing into that maybe 1 out of a 100 games or so but not with any regularity.

As far as turn 1 wins go... I find that the reason it's hard to do so is not because of Chrome Mox but because of Mystical Tutor. ESG and SSG do not provide colored mana sources, so it's not helping cast anything besides Flash or Merchant Scroll. I like Chrome Mox because it provides more oncolor mana sources. I also find that the fetchlands help improve consistency when I have only a mediocre hand (like a couple of Walls and 1 tutor) and a Brainstorm.

It seems like the ESG/SSG/Caverns build is maybe a bit faster but alot less consistent. I don't want to play a combo deck that tries to combo out turn 1 and fizzles. I'll try both versions though.

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no, we just need.

1 Gemstone Cavern OR 1 Lotus Petal OR 1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 FLash + 1 Pact or 1 Hulk

to help this we have 4 Mystical to play EOT (with the Cavern) getting the Summoner's Pact or Flash)

Anyway turn 0 or 1 run aren't very usual and you will never get an "insane" amount of turn 0 win. But 10, 20% of winning rate on turn 0 is possible. And Gemstone Cavern helps a lot.

I also don't like very much the Pact of Negation because, yes, it's great while you start comboing but not so great anytime else (let's say it's good just to be pitched for FoW...). but we win instant speed and it's easy to play in response to their disrupt and or when they have all tapped, etc. etc.

Probably we should try replacing Pact of Negation. (but it's just a possibility.. may be there aren't better options)

You can't play the walls from your hand after Protean Hulk's ability resolved?

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no, we just need.

1 Gemstone Cavern OR 1 Lotus Petal OR 1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 FLash + 1 Pact or 1 Hulk

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No... You need 1 Gemstone Cavern AND 1 Lotus Petal or ESG. Flash costs 1U, not 1.

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to help this we have 4 Mystical to play EOT (with the Cavern) getting the Summoner's Pact or Flash)

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Mystical delays the combo by 1 turn, thus pushing it into either turn 1 if you have Gemstone Cavern (4-of in a 60 card deck), or turn 2 otherwise.

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Anyway turn 0 or 1 run aren't very usual and you will never get an "insane" amount of turn 0 win. But 10, 20% of winning rate on turn 0 is possible. And Gemstone Cavern helps a lot.

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Turn 1 is possible, I'm not saying it's not. This deck still hasn't given me consistent turn 1 wins in the 40 or so hands I've played with it. Possible, yes, consistent, no. Turn 2 is very consistent. Turn 1 happens but not very often. Gemstone Caverns may make the speed of the deck increase, I haven't tested it with those yet. The only time it's going to increase the speed is in the opening hand though, along with the right cards. It probably does make the deck faster overall. Maybe this is why I'm not goldfishing turn 1 as often as everyone else seems to have been.

As far as turn 0 winning 20%? LMFAO... seriously, don't try to feed me that bullshit.

As far as Pact of Negation goes, I think it's amazing. It doesn't help protect the setup spell (Mystical Tutor), but it protects Flash or stops Stifle on Hulk... all at free cost.

I would like to bring more attention to Drathro's post on the previous page. You only need three creatures for a win:

Karmic Guide
Carrion Feeder
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

It works like this: Fetch Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder with Hulk. Return Hulk with the Guide, sac it to Feeder and fetch Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy the Guide, and in response, sacrifice Kiki-Jiki. When the copy comes into play, return Kiki-Jiki with it. Repeat for infinite hasty Karmic Guide tokens. (You can also make an infinitely large, hasty Carrion Feeder token at the end of the loop, if this pleases you).

Compared to the Disciples/Marauders/Walls kill:

+ ~8 free slots
- much easier to hate
- requires a combat phase

Both the pros and cons here are, shall we say, not insignificant. I mean, eight slots. On the other hand, it dies to a Fanatic, which is not ideal to a somewhat flabbergasting degree. Not being able to win at instant speed is also quite a bit more problematic for the post-FS, Pact versions, although there are multiple combinations of two cards you could add to regain this (Bloodshot Cyclops + Teardrop Kami, Academy Rector + Goblin Bombardment are two). (I'm still searching for other options with even fewer cards; Rector in particular opens up a ton of possibilities).

One thing you could do is maindeck the (10-12 card) Disciple combo and sideboard the (3 card) Karmic Guide version, then swap them against opponents who can't (or will side out their ways to) hate on the latter, letting you effectively bring in the entire rest of your sideboard for free.

This deck just shuts down pure Aggrodecks.

Each Aggrodeck would need to have heavy disruption to win against this.

And the argument "Then they all going to play more aggro-control" isn't an argument, it's just a metashift to a side, Magic never should go to:

Increase the number of Decks who can be played with success.

Here's a build I cooked up, working rather well so far:

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Tropical Island
4 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
3 [SH] Shifting Wall
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [DIS] Coiling Oracle
2 [DIS] Protean Hulk

// Spells
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [MM] Land Grant
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [6E] Flash

The low landcount is a direct result of the fact that you've got 8 tutors that can fetch for lands so as long as you have a single manasource in the start, you're fine. Land Grant is there to Mystical Tutor for without having to go for Summoner's Pact and risking the game, basically if you need a permanent mana source (also the reason for the lone Tropical in the manabase). Street Wraith is to Pact for when you want a Mysticalled card now, or just to cycle. Sage of Epityr is Pact-target if you need a pitch for Force (I found out that the scenario comes up a relevant number of times where you need to be able to Pact for a blue creature), and is decent library manipulation while at it. As for Hulk, you never want to draw multiples as Flash is the card getting countered, not Hulk, so only 2 Hulks. Chain of Vapor MD deals with Leyline of the Void along with other stupidity. No Petals since you're fast enough, and permanent manasources give you a better long game along with EoT shenanigans. ESGs are obviously Pactable mana sources and the deck can go off at EoT with Flash, followed by Flash on your own turn. All in all, versatile, effective, beautiful. SB should prolly have more Islands for the times when opponent forces you to play along with multiple Echoing Truths to fight Chalice set at 1 (which also stops Mystical Tutor, hence the word 'multiple'), perhaps Xantid Swarm or Misdirection, along with maybe Viridian Shaman or something 3-CC artifact-ripping or just 3-CC bounce critter.

EDIT: Yea, I obviously misread Summoner's Pact, which means that the Force-pitch critter needs to be UG and out of that pool, only Coiling Oracle fits the bill of doing something. Street Wraith is still useful as a singleton, but I don't think I'd want too many of them due to mulligan-issues, and the fact that the deck plays 7 cards it doesn't want to draw.