What about a turn one Lackey if they cannot deal with it they are forced to counter it because the cannot deal with first turn
Gang-bang
speaking of gang-bang, I LOVE BUTTSEX!!!!11!!!
kiki
or even ringleader
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What about a turn one Lackey if they cannot deal with it they are forced to counter it because the cannot deal with first turn
Gang-bang
speaking of gang-bang, I LOVE BUTTSEX!!!!11!!!
kiki
or even ringleader
If they don't hold a FoW or Swords for your turn 1 Lackey, the odds are they are just going to Wrath on Turn 4 and clean up what you had anyways. So unless you have the amazing nuts of Lackey -> Warchief , cast PD, cast PD.... and they have no answers....
Edit: To be fair, as a Turn 1 Drop it is a large threat, but it is by far from game over if it resolves.
Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1118881680
But the point is Lackey is almost forcing the control player to deal with the lackey so they would have less recources for the food chain.
Perhaps, but the Swords that they would likely burn on the Lackey (as opposed to FoW) isn't going to stop your Food Chain in the first place. Also, if Food Chain does resolve and you manage to get a load of Goblins en masse, you still need haste. So unless you have 2x Cheifs, that Swords they didn't waste on your Lackey will remove your haste and leave you impotent while they Wrath/Disk/Vengeance away your board.Quote:
Originally Posted by calosso
Here is a decklist for Goblins that have brought me through a tournament UNDEFEATED vs. ATS, Landstill, Welder, and many other decks that are at best SLOW. (I am not calling welder slow just reliant on key cards).
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Mogg Fanatic
2x Skirk Prospector
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Seige-Gang Commander
2x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Badland
8x Mountain
The Lackey turn one is obviously the best play, and if there are any 1/1's in the way when I go to swing I can usually kill it with a Mogg Fanatic.
Wasteland is simply the best card in the format.
Rishadan port is great when you have played enough goblins to put your opponent to their heels. It allows you (especially in combination with Wasteland) to limit the amount of measures they can use to stay alive.
Only two Prospectors because you get them at will with Matron and Ringleader.
Only one Sharpshooter because the decks that you cannot kill with 12 Goblins and 90some damage, usually cannot kill you either, so just go and get it with Matron or Ringleader.
Kiki-Jiki needs no explanation, Lackey in a Kiki-Jiki then two lackeys, then death. Duplicate Ringleader, Duplicate Seige-gang, Duplicate Warchief so all goblins are REALLY cheap, (my favorite) Duplicate Matron, usually for the win.
Ringleader is next to broken. (I do not know if anyone cares but I went through my whole deck 4 cards at a time and found that 75% of four cards revealed will have 3 OR MORE goblins in them.) This test was done 4or 5 times.
Vial is just good. I beats counter and gives you free cards with ringleader and matron and kiki-jiki, at instant speed. People play their turns to get to the next, meaning they are planning on what you turn will produce, when you use their end step to play a ringleader and find 3 new goblins that really messes someones momentum up.
Go ahead and knock it, I really don't care because it wins me tournaments, if you can handle it, build it and try it.
Oh, and the reason for the Badlands is I like to study other decks A LOT. I scout, and know my opponents, this allows me to use one of the best cards ever printed to it's fullest ability, Cabal Therapy. If you know what makes a deck tick, and can post-pone that from occurring, you will increase you winning percentage GREATLY.
As for the people who HATE Lackeys, you will be happy to know that when I win game one, unless my opponent likes to go second, I ALWAYS SIDE OUT 4X GOBLIN LACKEY.
They are only good on turn one and there are just too many things to stop them any time after, however, being the first play of a round may be the best play in 1.5
So, is what splash color is the one of general consensus? Green for Food Chain? White for Swords? Black for Cabal Therapy?
That's a good question, and one that likely will be getting it's own thread in the Open forum soon. It seems that the biggest toss up is between Mono-Red for consistancy, splash White for Disenchant (more than StP), or black for general hand disruption elements to try and give yourself a fighting chance vs. Landstill (which is still a bad matchup)...
At this point, I think the Mono-Red players are more numerous than the splash players (of any color)... and that's to be expected, especially since most people who may have brought this deck with them from 1.x may not have dual lands. That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't help us out as far as what splash is the ideal splash. Currently, Zilla and I have seemed to agree that it is a Metagame issue... There is a lot of Control and High-Tide combo in my area, so the hand disruption helps me win games I have no right to win, where Zilla may see a metagame where the Disenchants and Swords will win him many more games than a Cabal Therapy/Duress or a Perish. I'd say stick with a Mono-R build first, evaluate your metagame and find out what you are losing to or are having trouble with, then splash accordingly.
I like to splash black for Cabal Therapy because I am very good with that particular card. I generaly know what other decks need to win in a timely manner. Swords is kind of mindless because you wait for the threat and then deal with it. I like to play aggressively (which is why I like goblins) and Cabal Therapy feeds into that style. I also like to get the E-Plague before it hits the surface. If it comes into play, you have the same chances of winning as if you were to disenchant it; for it has already done it's worst when it comes into play. The second plague is never talked about because if [/I]it[I] hits, everyone knows the outcome.
This is a bit off-topic but I was wondering...
(and yes, I used the Search function to see if this was already covered. I came up with nothing.)
I read a Mike Flores article about Vial Goblins in which he pretty much advocated the use of FtK. Now, being the impressionable youth that I am, I immidiately tossed 4 FtK into my Vial build. I must admit that they really are quite nice with a Kiki on the board, in addition to them being just all around good. However, FtK does suffer the drawback of being milled away when I play a Ringleader - something that happened often enough to make me wish the damn things were just goblins.
I was browsing the thread and noticed something that I had missed time and time again (I reread these forums when I'm bored). You guys are running Gempalm Incinerator where I would be running FtK. I swapped out the FtKs for Incinerators as soon as I noticed this and I havent gone back. The Incinerators are just too useful, both in the early, mid, and late game. Most times, the creatures I am trying to kill dont have a toughness above 4 anyway (utility creatures, mostly). I cant think of any other pros right now, its 3 am here.
Anyway, I was just wondering if you guys had already realized this or..uh, I dunno. What do you think of Gempalm Incinerator VS Flametongue Kavu???
Another thing. I noticed that the RB builds dont run Incinerator where the RW builds do. Is there a reason for this??
C'mon, man. From page one of the thread:Quote:
I read a Mike Flores article about Vial Goblins in which he pretty much advocated the use of FtK. Now, being the impressionable youth that I am, I immidiately tossed 4 FtK into my Vial build. I must admit that they really are quite nice with a Kiki on the board, in addition to them being just all around good. However, FtK does suffer the drawback of being milled away when I play a Ringleader - something that happened often enough to make me wish the damn things were just goblins.
And CA replied:Quote:
Also, one of Flores' more interesting choices was maindeck FTK. I know it's not maindeck worthy, but in matches where the card advantage isn't as important, FTK might deserve to be sided in for Ringleaders.
Could they be good? Yes. But the big problems that arise are that they aren't goblins and are bad with Ringleaders. Also, they don't help your problem matchups at all since they're bad vs. Landstill/Control with board sweepers. You should roll aggro. Gempalms are great when you need to get rid of a one toughness creature to let your Lackey through. FTK doesn't help with that.Quote:
On the FTKs, I primarily left them out because of the fact that they aren't Goblins, but that isn't to say they aren't strong. This deck does lack removal, and having a few FTKs in the board could potentially be strong as you want your Vials on 4 anyways. My primary worry about them would be dropping them to the bottom of the library via Ringleader, because I have never wanted to side out Ringleaders so far. Plus they are not tutorable via Matron.
If you like FTK, use it. If you like Goblin Grenade or Food Chain, use em. But remember that when you replace goblin slots with non-goblin cards you weaken a potentialy broken card in Goblin Ringleader. 75% of the time you will flip 2 or more goblins with the Ringleader. If in addition to Vial you add FTK and STP, you may want to change that percentage to 45%. Ringleader is a close-to-broken with the ammount of cards it can get you, and if you build your deck correctly, you can exploit that to it's fullest potential.
On the topic of Gempalm Incinerator, it is important to note that cycling it will also draw you a card making it one of the ALL TIME GREATEST RED BURN CARDS EVER.
[color=#000000:post_uid2]Mike Flores not withstanding, I can't think of a situation when you'd what to side in FTK. As it has been said you should roll over creature decks and it (FTK) doesn't help in your problem matches (Landstill/ Solidarity). The environment that Type_Necromancer and I play in features heavy creature based decks and Type_Necromancer has had very little trouble dominating with his build. In a pinch sided in Gempalms help out nicely, but Kiki Jiki, Sharpshooter, and a veritable horde take down those decks. He's right about the power of Ringleader; it powers the horde. I also think that splashing black is the right choice: cabal therapy allows you to work around (somewhat) combo and control. I don't feel that added removal (swords) or acceleration (food chain) is needed.
This all being said, I don't like Goblins (not my style), but it is definately explosive. :O[/color:post_uid2]
Hey, with my experience from the source tournament and other random testing, I've come to realize several things about my deck. For one thing, I hated chrome mox in the vast majority of situations. The only times I liked it was when I also drew Sparksmith or Sharpshooter vs. a combo deck, or when I had a Skirk Prospector to imprint. This leads me to the second matter:I only liked Skirk Prospector when I had either a Chrome Mox or a Seige-gang commander. If I did end up doing something like using it to accelerate out a turn 2 warchief, all it did was make it so that my warchief was swords/bolted/etc on turn 2 instead of 3. I cut all but one of these, and have been happy with my testing so far(Left one in to matron for if I needed synergy with Seige-gang). Any thoughts on this?
I've come to the same conclusion about Chrome Mox; rarely do I ever want to see it. However, I would never dream of cutting prospector. The deck's already relatively light on lands, relying instead on Lackey/Vial to cheat costs, and there have been a few times when I've missed land drops and had to rely on Prospector to power out a game ending Ringleader and the such. Also, I find my self using him for Sharpshooter tricks quite often. That withstanding, he is still a one drop that smoothes out the curve. What do you run in absence of Chrome Mox and Prospector?
Edit: Sorry, this was from a mono-R or R/w standpoint, I had not considered the addition of Therapy.
my current list is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Revert_To_Saved
// Lands
4 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
7 [OD] Mountain (3)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [AT] Mogg Fanatic
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [ON] Sparksmith
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [ON] Sparksmith
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
With 22 land and 16 one-drops, 9 of which are creatures, I haven't run into any shortage of those. While it can be useful with Sharpshooter, it is pretty rare comparatively speaking. The direct cut I made was -2 prospector for another gempalm and therapy - one more way to force through turn 1 lackey and Therapy is gold in quite a few matchups.
EDIT:Changed 13 to the correct number of one drops
When you splash Badlands for Black or Plateau for White, you only need 2 since you run a fair about of fetch.
That's true with the white splash, but black usually ends up with more cards requiring the color. White gets you Disenchant and possibly StP, whereas black usually gets Therapy and Duress from the get go, then lots of meta specific ones including Bidding/Living Death, making a stronger splash necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by boom
This is only true for builds with Bidding in the board, which Aseraphim's list does not include. In a build running only Duress and Therapy, 2x Badlands, 8x Fetch is the correct way to go. It will consistently get a black source by first turn, without leaving you unnecessarily open to Wastelands if you don't need black. This is super important in a deck as tight on mana as Vial Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Revert_To_Saved
I just did some testing with both manabases, and these are the results I got(based on opening hands(since turn 1 is when you most want to duress/therapy, no mulligans):
4 Badlands, 7 Fetch
Games(Presideboard):
No therapy, black 48
therapy, black 33
No therapy, no black 13
therapy, no black 6
Games(Postsideboard):
No Therapy, black: 46
Therapy, black: 34
no therapy, no black: 6
therapy, no black: 14
2 Badlands, 8 Fetch
Games(Presideboard)
No therapy, black: 55
Therapy, black: 26
No Therapy, No black: 13
Therapy, no black: 6
Games(Postsideboard)
No therapy, black: 23
Therapy, black: 41
No Therapy, no black: 15
Therapy, no black: 21
Making it clear, postboard I had both therapy and duress lumped under 'Therapy'. So, presideboard there was no difference in the number of times I had a therapy I couldn't cast, but postboard there was a 7% increase from going with effectively -1 black source. Now, most of the hands with a therapy and no black were really crappy - no land, only wastelands, just one mountain and a bunch of 2+ casting costs with a therapy, etc... so i'll assume that 40-50% of these hands would have been mulled into one of the above three categories, which are pretty much fine(This is a pretty decent assumption- the vast majority of hands with uncastable therapies were complete ass). This reduces the difference to 3-4%, which is much less and is probably worth it when you also get more resiliency from wasteland. I'll test it out in actual games and if it still doesn't work, go to 3 badlands 8 fetch(Which is what the manabase should have been originally.
With the new changes to the core set it's pretty likely that Goblin King is going to get the creature type goblin. Does anyone think that this might be worth testing now?
Also, has anyone tested Goblin Wizard? It's yet another way to cut mana costs and has the ability to stop Swords to Plowshares and get around protection from red sons of bitches (most of them being white).
Lastly, has anyone considered four maindeck burning wish as a tutor for Bidding, Pillage, etc. ?
I don't play Vial Goblins. I'm just wondering if anyone has considered any of this.