[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by Versus

Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters

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Sounds like one of those days... I hope it's soon balanced out by a better run of luck. And yeah, experience and the mental game certainly play a big part.

Just to be clear, the above situation results in no Jitte counters, right? Just as bouncing an attacking Wren's Run Vanquisher doesn't kill a blocking Serra Angel, and bouncing a Essence Sliver doesn't give life. I guess it's a bit different since the creature has the ability in the other examples, but the same idea applies: after damage goes on the stack, the critter is bounced. As damage resolves and triggered abilities are checked, the Jitte is no longer equipped, or the Vanquisher/Sliver is no longer in play.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Just to be clear, the above situation results in no Jitte counters, right?

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Right.

I messed around with the black splash for a while, eventually cutting ports.
heres my list
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LRW] Plains (1)
4 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 2 [PY] Abolish
SB: 1 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

The sb needs a little help but its pretty good, would anyone like to try to tune this to the m-l meta?

Versus,

Wow, bad draws. It happens.... Well, im sure u played it as well as anybody else would have. Srry for not reading ur tournament report. I didnt see it earlier. Anyway, im sure u had a great time!

Ebbitten,

Your build looks very solid. You should run at least one more J.Grunt for all of the Tarmo-decks in ML. They do play alot of burn over there too, and grunt is imune to most of their kill spells... why cabal therapy over duress? Where are the E. Plagues, do u feel that Tivadar is better when combined with karakas/vial? Ceteris Peribus, I would make your SB like this:

3-engineered plague - goblins, Empty the Warrens, in ur ML case Kithkin lol
4-leyline of the void - ichorid, c.breakfast, IGG, survival
4-duress - belcher, IGG, survival, burn
4-thorn of amethyst - belcher, IGG, thresh, burn

Other than cheesy combo decks, ur list could take on most other decks without needing the sideboard. If you dont like leyline ot Void, then Extirpate would be the next best choice. SotPC would be good too...
take advantage of the great Black sideboard options if your going to splash black, dude :smile: pithing needle would be a good choice also. it takes care of survival/SDTop/Vial/Deed/E.Explosives/... its a long list; needle is a good SB option. Is Dragon Stompy getting heavy over there? If so, with all of the other red stuff I wouldn't blame you for running CoP in your sb, lol - anyway, im not hatin on your list. I like it - black is a good splash for the deck.

@ Versus: I'm sorry about your poor experience. It sucks when these things happen.

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Originally Posted by Versus

Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters and I just got disenchanted with the day as a whole and started playing like shit.

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Did they at least get the ruling correct?

I've been doing a lot of work with Vial lately and I've become very leery of the reactive uses of it. Putting even 3 or 4 total creatures in a deck that are going to be best used at instant speed off of a Vial influences the drawability of a deck greatly.

I've been slowly removing the cool things and replacing them with proactive effects so that my initial draws are better.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I've been doing a lot of work with Vial lately and I've become very leery of the reactive uses of it. Putting even 3 or 4 total creatures in a deck that are going to be best used at instant speed off of a Vial influences the drawability of a deck greatly.

I've been slowly removing the cool things and replacing them with proactive effects so that my initial draws are better.

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Specifically what creatures are you referring to?

Well at first i just added cabal therapy because the sb was kinda thrown together but thinking back i'm not entirely sure why. So heres my updated sb:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 2 [PY] Abolish
SB: 1 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 [US] Duress

the 2 abolish/1 disenchant feels a little weird so i'm open to suggestions.

The only thing I feel is lacking here is a solid card draw/filter slot. In the mono-white build, you're relying on good draws and deck redundancy to get you your answers. The black splash is interesting in that it adds Confidant, which is insane card advantage and a beater, and Thoughtseize. If draw is one concern, would Sword of Fire and Ice do well in here in place of the Jitte's? Both Jitte and SoFI handle aggro handidly, but the main difference is that SoFI nets you a card, and provides Goblin protection. Thoughts on SoFI in place of Jitte? Or at least a split?

Mr. Took, I can say with total conviction that taking out the Aether Vial is tantamount to removing Brainstorm from Threshold. (this is what Bilbo calls "being on his honour")

Seriously though, this deck actually makes use of multiples. You hold the second until after you play Cataclysm (selecting the Jitte to stay in play - not the Vial). It makes the deck nearly impervious to land destruction. I don't have to say how big it is versus Landstill or Threshold in the opening draw. To respond to your statement directly, I will keep a one-land hand if I have one of these, and this is why I compare it to Brainstorm. And finally, it is the one card I want over all other in my opening seven against an unknown opponent.

Vial doesn't just do any of this, though. The deck has a habit of putting creatures back in your hand - so the Vial gets a much greater workout than say, in Slivers. Finally, Vial puts the combo portion of the deck with Mangara on a whole other level.

I don't think Aether Vial belongs in every aggro deck, but it does belong in this one.

Is there a consensus about what version is the best against storm combo and Belcher? Seems to me that the green splash with Teeg is the most proactive, but stifle is clearly a winner against anything but the Charbelcher itself.

I've been having a blast playing this, by the way. Cheers to everyone who has helped develop it up until now.

I took a monowhite build without Port/Wasteland (I don't own them) to a small local tourney yesterday and placed first. I was very happy with the deck. The hardest matchup was against a land/loam deck that used recurring Mindslaver. Twice I got out of the Mindslaver lock, and I was able to use Stonecloaker/Grunt to pick out key cards from his yard. The games took forever and it was not easy, but very fun.

Worst play: Playing Jitte when I had a Jitte out. Damn newbie. :cry:

Most Fun: Stonecloaker bouncing Serra Avenger in response to [Control Magic-like spell]. He's so damn versatile it's just sick.

Worst draw: I mulled down to 5 and ended up with nothing but land, Vials, and Jittes for about a million turns. I lost to a janky Tim deck (but came back in games 2,3 to whomp him). Thankfully, it's the only time I really got hosed with my initial hands. I think I only had to mull in that one game.

This deck really does destroy non-combo metas. Thanks for all the work on it!

Quick question: I have all the cards to add the blue splash, or could keep it monowhite (and get Ports/Wastelands). Should I keep it more white weenie-ish or should I add the cantrips and Stifles? Finn's initial post took out the Mana Tithes but didn't add Dazes... does the blue version run completely counterless then?

Another one: How about Mask of Memory for card draw? I know we don't have as much evasion as Angel Stompy, but it's cheap to both acquire and play, so it might be worth a quick test. One problem is lack of room in the deck (as evidenced by all the 3-ofs we run). Perhaps the blue splash can also suspend Ancestral Visions.

My current sideboard:

4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Glowrider
3x Tivadar of Thorn
2x Jotun Grunt
3x *undetermined

Basically I've got my goblin hate (tivadar), additional threshold support (jotun), and my anti-combo set up in the board (amethyst and glowrider). I run a fairly standard maindeck, which includes 4x mana tithe. Like most D&T I've got a strong aggro match, a fairly solid control matchup, weaker on the combo, but half of my sideboard is dedicated against it.

What are suggestions for the last 3 slots? I was considering Kataki, War's Wage. I'm not sure it would be good for much beyond Affinity. What are D&T's worst matchups? 43 Lands could be bad I imagine. I know Abolish is a pretty typical sb card also. Recommendations?

For drawing cards in the monowhite build, i think Weathered wayfarer is a good option. I cut Isamaru for 3 Wayfarer. It allows the reccuring wasteland, with Jotun Grunt who delays the wasteland from my yard to my library. I play only 3 KaraKas and 3 Flagstones of trokair (but 4 wasteland), it's enough whith 3 Wayfarer.
@Kirbysdl : Not easy to find a slot for Mask of memory. For me Jitte is too essential to cut it. Perhaps you can try : - 1 Aether vial, -2 Jitte, for +2 enlightened tutor, +1 mask of memory, but i think is bad.

Actually, what is your sideboard in the monowhithe build ?

Galroth,my current sideboard is almost like yours except using 4 Orim's Chant in place of 1 Tivadar of Thorn and the 3 undetermined spaces.
It helps A LOT versus some combo decks,i've been using them and they have been really helpful 'till now.

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Originally Posted by marko

@Kirbysdl : Not easy to find a slot for Mask of memory. For me Jitte is too essential to cut it. Perhaps you can try : - 1 Aether vial, -2 Jitte, for +2 enlightened tutor, +1 mask of memory, but i think is bad.

Actually, what is your sideboard in the monowhithe build ?

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I agree that the decklist is tight, but if people can find room for 4 Confidants, it should be possible to add a couple of Masks. :wink: The bigger problem is how often Mask will be useful, given that we need to hit the opponent for it to work.

My board was pretty janky, since I'm still building the deck:

2 Disenchant (should be Abolish?)
2 Aura of Silence (Surprisingly useful, but perhaps should be Seals)
1 Jotun Grunt (2 in the main)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (3 in the main)
3 True Believer (Woulda been fun against Mindslaver)
4 Thorn of Amethyst (Never used it...)
2 Abeyance (Should be Orim's Chant probably, but I don't own them)

My local meta is actually very low on combo... I think I can probably get away with ditching the Thorns and Abeyances and packing more varied critters in, e.g. Tividar and Grunt #4.

@Galroth and Xurcks: any disenchant effects in your main? You don't have any in the side.

EDIT: Ok, I'm once again acting like an idiot. Mangara Disenchants anything. =) You'd need something else if he were Needled or Humilitied though.

@kirbysdl: i've been using 2 oblivion rings in my MD for a while and have been liking them as all-around removal.

Can anyone tell me why nobody else thought to use Oblivion Ring? It seems like a very easy inclusion.

PhaerimmArchlord reappears from the nothing hahaha
Well,come back here then so we can discuss the O.Ring in the deck :P

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

@ Versus: I'm sorry about your poor experience. It sucks when these things happen.



Did they at least get the ruling correct?

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Yeah, they ruled right finally. It of course was my opponent who called them over. The initial Judge said yes, then he called for the Head who at first agreed it DID receive them. After further protest from my opponent they came to the conclusion that no counters were created. I was pretty done with Magic at that point. It was a long day so I never made a peep about the ruling. After the match was over I took a third judge to the side to find out WHY it didn't receive the counters. I thought the whole "last known info" thing would apply. This third judge agreed that Jitte DID get the counters then asked to read the card and changed his mind to no again??? At this point I was completely confused.

Just one of those days...