[Deck] Goyf Sligh

Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

However, game two can provide you with some headaches since the have effective hate cards. Depending on the colors being run, Landstill can have accesss to Chill and/or CoP: Red. Be sure to board in your Krosan Grips. I can imagine that a UBW build running discard and CoP: Reds could have solid game two against Goyf Sligh.

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Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten

Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

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That's pretty much it. If they are able to drop a standstill with an empty board, go land-go til either a problem happens (Man-land) or they go into thier discard step (Lava Dart is amazing here). Discard can be savage early, but in the late game if your holding up for critical mass it's not that big of a deal.

I normally board in Grips and Needles (for thier man-lands and/or Deed/EE) over Fireblast and Kird Apes.

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Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten

Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

However, game two can provide you with some headaches since the have effective hate cards. Depending on the colors being run, Landstill can have accesss to Chill and/or CoP: Red. Be sure to board in your Krosan Grips. I can imagine that a UBW build running discard and CoP: Reds could have solid game two against Goyf Sligh.

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Very True P_R, I always smash Landstill game one, games twon and three are a diffrent story. I find myself haveing problems with the amount of hate that landstill decks can pack, Swords, Counter Spell, F.O.W., and Smother to name a few. I found that the more burn I pack the better the match is for me, creatures get hated out but they don't pack enough counters to stop all the burn. I try to get my opponent to somewhere between 8-10 and then try and Alpha Strike them out w/ POP and Fireblasts.

I've seen Landstill as yet another reason to run Cursed Scroll. Really, it's been that way since before Goyf and nothing has changed. We all know this deck runs out of gas at times. Scroll helps with that, as well as taking care of Silver Knight.

Personally, I run 3 Scrolls and 3 Lavamancers main. The deck still goldfishes consistently by turn 4 and has the occasional turn 3 kill so I really don't want to hear any whining about slowing the deck down...though someone probably will anyway.

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Originally Posted by umbowta

I've seen Landstill as yet another reason to run Cursed Scroll. Really, it's been that way since before Goyf and nothing has changed. We all know this deck runs out of gas at times. Scroll helps with that, as well as taking care of Silver Knight.

Personally, I run 3 Scrolls and 3 Lavamancers main. The deck still goldfishes consistently by turn 4 and has the occasional turn 3 kill so I really don't want to hear any whining about slowing the deck down...though someone probably will anyway.

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Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.

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Ditto, I run 3-4 lavamancers and they are slow enough. Cursed Scroll is even slower and playing them both in the same deck will just slow you down even more. If you want to run scroll, then run scroll but not lavamancers, or visa versa. I really don't see this deck working with both.

Here is a list with the black splash that I might throw together. Not sure if you want splashed decks posted here, but the MD is exactly the same as most people.

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
1 Forest

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy (the wanna-be seize)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price of Progress

So I wanted to splash for the better combo MU, but not hurt the deck at all by adding Dark Confidant to an uber fast sligh deck. I like Quirion as the 4th creature just because it is better than all of the other ones listed. It may be better as a burn piece, but it is 2cc and reacurring damage. Still need to test it more. If I did drop them, I would add Lava Spikes. Thoughts on the list?

@ Jak

If you look back a page or two you will find the deck I splased black in. It worked very well, I played Bob main deck and Duress in the Board. If you are going to run Bob main board you might wanna cut fireblast though, ouch.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
1 Forest

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy (the wanna-be seize)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price of Progress

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If you going with a black splash, then why not play Dark Confidant main deck. I think he is darn right amazing in this deck if you decide on a black splash. In the sideboard I would go with Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, b/c your creatures are there to deal damage not getting rid of them to Therapy.

I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant. I like price of progress main deck if it was 2 colors, but since your running 3, I would simply more it to the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

If you going with a black splash, then why not play Dark Confidant main deck. I think he is darn right amazing in this deck if you decide on a black splash. In the sideboard I would go with Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, b/c your creatures are there to deal damage not getting rid of them to Therapy.

I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant. I like price of progress main deck if it was 2 colors, but since your running 3, I would simply more it to the sideboard.

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I don't like Confidant MD just because he is slow. I wanted a light splash for the problematic MUs and Confidant doesn't help them. I like running Magma Jet over Confidant because, IMO, deck manipulation is mush better than slow draw.

Cabal Therapy will turn into Seize when I get them as I said, but it is still pretty good. Games 2 and 3, you should know what the opponent is playing and name the feared combo card.

Price main is perfectly acceptable. You should have the opponent to lower life than you against Thresh and Landstill. They won't get you down to 4-6 life. Plus, I would never fetch Badlands game 1. There is no need. If I draw, then so what, it is not like I will do myself over 6 damage.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I don't like Confidant MD just because he is slow. I wanted a light splash for the problematic MUs and Confidant doesn't help them. I like running Magma Jet over Confidant because, IMO, deck manipulation is mush better than slow draw.

Cabal Therapy will turn into Seize when I get them as I said, but it is still pretty good. Games 2 and 3, you should know what the opponent is playing and name the feared combo card.

Price main is perfectly acceptable. You should have the opponent to lower life than you against Thresh and Landstill. They won't get you down to 4-6 life. Plus, I would never fetch Badlands game 1. There is no need. If I draw, then so what, it is not like I will do myself over 6 damage.

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Wait, Bob is slow, you're running Jet? Bob, if he lives, draws you an extra spell every turn. This decks biggest problem is stalling out and playing against combo. Bob draws you that extra bolt or Goyf, every turn!!! I ran him day two at TMLO III and he was amazing, most of the time. Never did I go, turn 2 or 3 bob and say " man I wish he was something else. "

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/C.../Card83771.jpg > http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/C.../Card51180.jpg

I also said I like deck manipulation better than drawing a random card. Bob is slow at gaining you card advantage. You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA. Now I would rather play Jet and send 2 dead lands to the bottom of my deck, while dealing 2 damage. Also, Bob main means flipping Fireblast terrible against combo, making it so much easier for them to Tendrils you. The life loss would add up with Bob, fetches, and PoP. I do not want to distort the deck to add a creature with minimal advantages over another card.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I also said I like deck manipulation better than drawing a random card. Bob is slow at gaining you card advantage. You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA. Now I would rather play Jet and send 2 dead lands to the bottom of my deck, while dealing 2 damage. Also, Bob main means flipping Fireblast terrible against combo, making it so much easier for them to Tendrils you. The life loss would add up with Bob, fetches, and PoP. I do not want to distort the deck to add a creature with minimal advantages over another card.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

....If you are going to run Bob main board you might wanna cut fireblast though, ouch.

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So what you're saying is Bob doesn't net you cards? How is Bob not gaining card advantage, he replaces himself the turn after you play him? You don't get to use the cards you reveal off jet till the next turn? If you choose to Scry the cards to the bottom then the darw is just as random as Bob's draw is.

If you think Bob has minimal advantages over Magma Jet, you are sorely mistaken. Besides the fact that he dies to creature removal, Bob is better than Magma Jet all day long. Magma Jet hits for two. Once. Bob gets in as long as the board is clear (which it almost always is in the matchups he is good in). Magma Jet fixes your draw once, MAYBE sets you up for two good cards max. Bob draws you an extra card every turn he is in play. People always complain, "oh you'll flip Fireblast and take 6." Hello, that's an extra Fireblast in your hand and ready to deal 4 to their face, plus Bob attacking, is the 6 damage made up. Card Avantage WINS games, and if Bob is unanswered, 99% of the time you will win. This is way better than a marginal burn spell and Scry 2. He should be SB card at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA.

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I have not tested this deck at all so I can't say if Bob is good in it.

But that statement is just not true, you have to wait for only one turn. Bob creates CA in the first upkeep because he is still in play then and that's a 2 for 1 by definition. (you gain a random card AND a 2/1 with a very relevant ability for just one card).

I'll concede the arguement. I was thinking close-minded and just didn't like the idea of Bob in a fast, aggro deck. I can see where he would be great, but I was focusing on where he would be bad more. Magma Jet is still good though and should be run with Bob.

Quirion wasn't the best in the little testing I did, so I guess I will throw Bob in there.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant.

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Seriously? Magma Jet is probably the third best burn spell ever printed (Lightning bolt and Chain Lightning being 1st and 2nd). Think about it like this: You play incinerate, yea you get 1 more point of damage, but what the next 1-2 of your draws are land? If it were a magma jet you could fix the top to ensure or increase the chances of business cards next turn. Its like delayed gratification. In other words, in the long run Magma Jet is able to net you more damage potentially because it allows you to skip drawing land or other useless cards you don't need and it decreases your chances of drawing cards like that. Maybe if you're running a R burn spell for 3 dmg I can see the argument because of the mana efficiency but I would say that Magma Jet is definitely better than Incinerate.

As for the two cards (Dark Confidant and Magma Jet) being compared directly, yea I would rather run Confidant. The only thing I don't like about splashing black is that PoP can potentially screw you, but I think Bob is definitely worth the splash.

Sacearuse, you mentioned that Ichorid is a bye or a very easy match-up. I'm just curious as to how it is usually played because I haven't got to test against this deck yet. Basically, I know you sac the Fanatics whenever they get bridges, and also burn their dudes, but what specific plays have sealed the deal in this match-up in your experience?

@ Luckatron2

Well you really said it, Mogg to get rid of bridges and then just burn them out. They help you out by flashing back Deep Anal. and don't really have any answers to your burn and Tarmogoyf. I have played against Ichorid twice, once with Goyf Sligh and once with str8 burn, both match’s were over quickly. Goyf Sligh can just over power Ichorid, with out Bridge its not even a match. If they get Bridge going you are in trouble though, I pack Pyroclasm in the SB and it definitely helps in this match.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.

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If you're suggesting that running without Scrolls changes this decks clock from a consistent turn 4 to even 3.5, by all means, give your viewpoints. Previous testing with 3 Scroll/3 Mancers main:

20 little fishes, on the play, with mullies, yielded:
turn 3 wins...1
turn 4 wins...17
turn 5 wins...2
average...4.05
then I got bored.

I can't personally justify abandoning the mid/late game plan because match play doesn't equal goldfishing. I can, however, justify Cursed Scroll to help answer Landstill. It can be dropped on turn 1 and gets under Standstill all day long. It can't be STP'ed, it can't be WOG'ed, and yet it must be dealt with. Maybe they'll get lucky and hit that singleton E.E. Maybe they even have deed. It's still good and the average still = 4.05...before I got bored anyway. Pretty frickin fast for an aggro deck with a back up plan.

I should also mention that a Tarmogoyf ground stall can be quite annoying, and quite easily taken care of (without having to spend an additional card) with an active Scroll.

Anyway, Troopatroop, If you've already goldfished a bunch a times and would like to share results, please do...save me from the drudgery. If you can hit a turn 3 win at least 8 times out of 20, then I'll concede that the deck might be fast enough to abandon a mid/late plan.

@ umbowta :

If landstill is such a problem for you then maybe you wanna play a deck better suited for your meta. Adding cursed scroll will slow this deck down, Lavamancer can be droped turn one and activated turn two, thats 2 damage guraunteed. With cursed Scroll you can play it turn one, wait till turn three to activate it, and maybe get 2 damage through. Plus if you are sitting under a Standstill lock then you are going to have a lot of cards in your hand, IDK about you but how many time do you think you hit for 2 with the Scroll?