Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
meanee
I have played this deck on and off for quite some time now, and I hate EtW. Therefore I play green.
Yearh I know it sounds awful, but I play 4 xantid swarm in the sideboard, and they are really worth against both landstill and thresh (which are both quite a large part of my meta).
My manabase looks like this:
8 fetches
3 basics (island, swamp, plains)
1 sea
1 tundra
1 scrub
1 tropical
And a bayou in the board too. This also helps in matches against any kind of LD.
Besides from the fact that I play green, I also play 4 chant AND 2 duress main. I don't think that 3 chant is enough - at least not in a metagame with blue in it. Of course - if it works for you guys, gogogo! But I have found myself in a lot of trouble fighting off counters with only three cards to hate it.
In many instances you have to play an ill-gotten gains to win. A clever landstill/thresh player nows this, and that will certainly make him counter the chant, so that when your Gains resolve, he will retrieve his force, to murder your infernal tutor. To fight this, you need A LOT of mana... Something I don't find myself having too often.
Anyway I like the deck a lot, and it is so much fun to play. There is something about playing combo and still being able to fight through counters and discardspells and other shizz...
- meanee
Extirpate will likely treat you a lot better than Duress against control. Extirpate main as a 1-of can be pretty good (especially in an environment filled with Ichorid or blue-based control) where it can nab hard counters eot before you go off post countered chant.
A green splash looks fine although I'd question the usefulness of Bayou in the sideboard unless you board more than a 1-2of KGrip. (I've been considering 1 Trop, SB: 1 KGrip recently with the upswing of targetted discard in Daze decks.) Xantid Swarm is actually pretty bad compared to Abeyance and the combo that Extirpate brings to Chant and Abeyance. I would not recommend rewarding Landstill for not playing 15 anti-combo slots (which would mean they get to leave in STP and/or Deed).
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Post testing a few games with Emidln with a KGrip list. I was playing the Hatfield's exact 5c list from VA:
- This deck still has issues with Counterbalance game one. Maybe it was MWS, maybe it wasn't, but I won both games preboard on the back of Counterbalance.
- Krosan Grip is really good. Actually removing CB is immeasurably better then just bouncing it.
- The one postboard game played was won by Emidln through 3 Force of Wills.
- 5c can deal itself a LOT of damage, which became increasingly relevent as the game progressed.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
I posted a skeleton a page or so earlier of the cards that everyone plays with. I don't really understand the aversion to Death Wish. It's really good against anything that isn't burn. Your list looks to be about 59 cards (assuming 2 Tendrils and 2 IGG) which would lead me to suggest going -1 Draw4, +1 Ponder, +1 Extirpate in your metagame. If you're playing against Extirpates, Death Wish will become a lot better. I would probably board the 4th Chant and 2 Abeyance with 4 Serenity, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Confidants, and Extirpates (1-2).
Tundra is required. If you can't get Tundra, play Hallowed Fountain until you can get Tundra. You fetch for it more than any other dual land. Volcanic Island isn't required at all. The only things you'll consider casting in the color red are ETW and Pyroclasm, neither of which would be required in your metagame.
That's fine, I just picked up a Tundra. Thanks for the suggestions. I think that I want to run 3 Ponders, 1 Pate, and 1 Duress. In my testing against Canadian Thrash Duress would have been stronger than Chant in many situations.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Duress does exactly the same as Chant when comboing off, as it takes FOW out of their hand, but Chant counts for an extra storm. Duress, however, won't timewalk, which is way better than being able to disrupt the opponent off one card.
In which situations would Duress be better?
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mental
That's fine, I just picked up a Tundra. Thanks for the suggestions. I think that I want to run 3 Ponders, 1 Pate, and 1 Duress. In my testing against Canadian Thrash Duress would have been stronger than Chant in many situations.
Preboard, Canadian Thresh wins only when FT is short on lands/petals. This is actually the common way for FT to lose against aggro-control. (In the games Will mentioned above, I had 1 land game 1 and I believe 2 lands, with the second being very late in game 2.) The way to make FT short on lands/petals is to aggressive Daze/FoW/Disrupt/CB/Red Blast Ponders and Brainstorms. Unlike CB Thresh, Canadian Thresh has little ability to actually counter the setup if FT plays around Daze preboard which will force Canadian Thresh into its mana denial strategy with Stifle/Wasteland. Carefully played, this is easy to work around with fetches and opportune fetching and will generally lead to Canadian Thresh contesting FT on the combo turn, which rarely goes in the favor of Thresh.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaiminho
Duress does exactly the same as Chant when comboing off, as it takes FOW out of their hand, but Chant counts for an extra storm. Duress, however, won't timewalk, which is way better than being able to disrupt the opponent off one card.
In which situations would Duress be better?
Chant also takes away another blue card (pitched to FoW) and 1 life (to FoW too). This helps a lot if you're not going fo the IGG plan
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Chant also takes away another blue card (pitched to FoW) and 1 life (to FoW too). This helps a lot if you're not going fo the IGG plan
Chant is significantly better against Counterspell decks. In the event that an opponent has multiple Counterspells but only has the available mana to play one Counterspell (it is common for an opponent to leave Counterspell mana up while using other lands to play threats) playing Chant forces an opponent to tap their lands to counter Chant. This is a better situation for the combo player than Duress which an observant opponent will let resolve since their ability to prevent you from casting threats does not diminish.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
I do not think that dures is BETTER than Orim's chant, I play both (4/2 split).
What di you guys do, if you are playing against thresh, og landstill, and they counter your chant and have 1 island untapped? Just play ahead, and hope that he's not got a doombringing stifle, nor a - somtimes very annoying - daze?
See my problem is that I hate to be killed by a stifle, and I just think that happens a lot these days ;)
If you play with just a couple of duress, sometimes you will be able to cast orim's chant - then if it is not countered, Fine! Proceed and win, but if it is countered you play your duress to take out his last counter/stifle. If he can fight you through this, he is either lucky or cheating :)
Of course you can also simply find and play to chant, but I have found the mana requirement to be problematic.
My sb is something along the lines of:
4 confidant
4 swarm
1 tendrils
1 ill-gotten gains (1 death wish main)
2 wipe away (none main)
2-3 krosan grip/rushing river (depending on whether I fear counterbalance or stax)
0-1 bayou
- meanee
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Well technically in that circumstance if your an compotent storm combo player that is playing fetchland tendrils. An playset of orim's chants is all you need considering you can always fetch for them with tutors. Of course adding duresses could bring an advantage as well as an disadvantage.
The advantage of playing duress is it gives your tendrils deck more resiliency to countermagic. However, the disadvantage is that it does not really help you to go off efficiently enough when needed. Besides duress does nothing to board hate(e.g. meddling mage, gaddock teeg and etc.) which is an significant downfall.
Besides if you fear countermagic you always can board in your abeyances which can be significant. Especially if you see your opponent plays something like an tormod's crypt on the first or second turn. Abeyance is definitely better then duress too since it takes generally the same role as chant as well as cantripping can be tech.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
meanee
1 ill-gotten gains (1 death wish main)
2 wipe away (none main)
2-3 krosan grip/rushing river (depending on whether I fear counterbalance or stax)
0-1 bayou
Why 1 IGG in side? When you play one of your maindeck IGG it gets RFG, so you can wish for it anyway. If they get extirpated too.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
The doubt between Orim's Chant & Duress is an old diatribe I've seen one year ago also in the TES's thread.
Quote:
What di you guys do, if you are playing against thresh, og landstill, and they counter your chant and have 1 island untapped? Just play ahead, and hope that he's not got a doombringing stifle, nor a - somtimes very annoying - daze?
In the same mode your opponent can counter duress and then he can play stifle on your deadly ToA.
Basically Orim >>> Duress because when you use the Ill-Gotten plan you want that your opponent can't play the cards he takes from grave (stifle, FoW,...). Orim allows to do this, Duress no.
An other situation where Orim >> Duress: if your opponent has no protection and 2 Stifle in hand.
You can consider also that Orim functions like a Time Walk in many situations: against aggro, against disruption decks and like protection (more efficient than Duress) against combo. At my last tournament Orim helps me to take one more turn FTW against an horde of green goblin of a Belcher's player for example.
There is a myriad of situations where Orim >>> Duress. The only disavantages of Orim is that it's white, but with the last builds playing a basic plains this isn't a problem. I think you can cut the duress maindeck and alternatively play them in sb.
I see that you playing a split of both Orim / Duress, but do you really need 6 protection in a deck with so many cantrips and tutors? I think that 6 protections slow down too much the speed of the deck. Usually I play in an heavy blue enviroment but I don't play more than 3 Orim's Chant maindeck because with so many cantrips/draw4/tutors it's not so difficult to search one or more Orim.
Why do you play so many split second card in side?
Don't you need more efficient boucers like Rebuild or response like Serenity instead of all these split second card? Basically split second cards is only for Counterbalance (and marginally for Arcane Laboratory). I think that 1 copy is enough because we have also mystical to search wipe away / krosan grip (I don't like this solution: weak the manabase).
I'm happy that this thread has more visibility, but lately I think that there are a lot of suggests here that are already sayed and tested in the last months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Why 1 IGG in side? When you play one of your maindeck IGG it gets RFG, so you can wish for it anyway. If they get extirpated too.
I think because sometimes we can start the combo with the only Death Wish in hand so we can search in SB Ill-Gotten and increase the storm combo to 10 (but we need also a tutor or ToA in grave). I don't like this choice, I think that it's a slot in SB wasted away.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
There is really no reason to play Xantid Swarm over Abeyance in this deck. At this point, there also isn't much of an excuse to not include at least one copy of these cards in your sideboard:
Echoing Truth
Rushing River
Wipe Away
Extirpate
Serenity should also be an auto-include unless you happen to live in a metagame without Loam, Survival, Stax, Goblins, and Chalice Aggro.
As far as the maindeck is concerned, it's a really bad idea to remove Wipe Away because the color blue does get played in this format. Being able to remove problematic cards game one without fear of countermagic is a big deal.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
This post was approaching too long for a PM that I received from rsaunder asking for a current list. I'm posting it here because it seems to be relevant and the questions are important.
The current list is pretty close to the one that you played, although I'm currently experimenting with just what Street Wraith provides in given matchups vs solutions like extra business (which solves a problem I'll talk about a little later) and Portents (to help dig more yielding 10 Cantrips).
These are the cards that I really want to play. It's important to note that this is 66ish cards.
// 15 lands out of these 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland
// 16 of 16 accel
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
// At least 10 out of these 14, but min 11 with SW
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
// At least 12 out of these 14
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Death Wish
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
// At least 4 of these 6
4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
The sideboard has been looking like this (again, note that it is much larger than 15 (22 cards I think)):
// Extra win conditions vs Earwig Squad, Death Wish targets
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
// Anti-discard
4 Dark Confidant
// Anti-permanents
4 Serenity
1 Rebuild
2 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sudden Death
// Blue Hate
2 Abeyance
2 Extirpate
The important questions that I'm running into right now are:
(1) Is the fifteenth land better off as a Flooded Strand yielding 1 basic Island or as a basic Island yielding 3 Flooded Strand?
(2) How many cantrips are optimal? Specifically, is Street Wraith as a 4-of better than 2 Portent and 1 Business, 1 Protection Spell or 2 Portent, 2 Business Spells? (I've determined that I definitely don't want 4 Portent, but 2 seems to be really good.)
(3) Stemming from the second question, how important are the second Ill-Gotten Gains and the second Tendrils of Agony relative to the third and fourth Orim's Chant and the first Extirpate?
(4) Is there enough blue, Ichorid, Breakfast, and the mirror to justify Extirpate maindeck? Against blue is the (virtually) guaranteed resolution of the second Chant after the first Extirpate and the first Chant worth the extra effort required to find either the second Chant or the first Extirpate to pull off the combo in the maindeck?
(5) How much hate for Counterbalance is appropriate. It is easy to splash for Krosan Grip off Tropical Island, but how many Krosan Grip are necessary with what amount of Wipe Aways between main and sideboard?
(6) Is Sudden Death a worthwhile addition to the sideboard? In matchups where multiple Mages are a possibility, Mage on Tendrils, Mage on Wipe Away could be a really difficult situation, but it seems that the best way to use the second Mage (from an anti-FT perspective) is to simply name Tendrils again. This would lead to resolving Chant and then Clasm as the best solution, something that would likely require a Volcanic Island.
(7) Is Pyroclasm necessary? It's my firm belief that Krosan Grip should at least be a 1-of which dictates that Clasm would put us into a 5th Color. This is possible (even with 3 Basics and 7 fetches), but is it worth it?
(8) Does the deck have enough problems with discard that Dark Confidant is worth the 3-4 slots dedicated to him. Without these slots, fitting in hate for Earwig Squad and an Empty the Warrrens is possible (giving maindeck access to ETW via Death Wish).
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nightbringer
Hi,
I just startes following this tread but i was wondering why so few people play Grim tutor?
Is it because its to expensive or is it just no good in this deck?
I guess, it's just the fact that nobody wants to buy a full playset of them for 'bout 400$. (Don't really know what they're exactly) And actually Grim Tutor is useless in every other deck, uneless you're playing Vintage, and they're very hard to find.
But Grim's also a thing I was wondering about: If I have access to at least one, should I play it?
Another thing I'm not sure about, is the g-splash. Is it worth to run another dual and either increase your landcount or your vulnerability to wasteland/moon, just to run a some grip in sb? Are the any other green cards to play, since we don't need xantid?
And what's the extirpate for? Sure, it's great against ichorid, and it can remove Lftl, but does it really improve some matchups that much, that it's worth the slot? edit: Ah I see, just forgot about the pitchcounters it takes.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
If you flip back a few pages I believe there is a disscussion about running grims in FT. I'm not nearly as qualified to touch on this topic as Emidlin but the end point was that it while amazing against counterbalance as a must counter it didnt really do much else that say a draw 4 or death wish cant do. There was alot more to the arguement I realize but as I said I'm not really the best guy to talk about running grims in here.
As for the green splash I personally do not feel the vulnerability to waste and moon is worthy of its inclusion. Not to mention there has never been a situation where it was any better for then Wipe Away although I understand that that will not always be the case. Not to mention in my meta there is only one (competient (Spelling?)) deck packing counter-top compared to the sheer number and compeitency of players playing some form of deck running waste and/or moon effects.
The extirpate while phenomenal at RFGing a certain hastey annoyance also serves to do recon in control matchups if for example you have no more chants for some unkown reason and need to know if they have something to screw with the plan... It could provide card advantage.. not to mention ripping a hard counter from ur opponent is never bad.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Especially so since the deck runs 4 Mystical Tutors to fetch the aforementioned Chants.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
(8) Does the deck have enough problems with discard that Dark Confidant is worth the 3-4 slots dedicated to him. Without these slots, fitting in hate for Earwig Squad and an Empty the Warrrens is possible (giving maindeck access to ETW via Death Wish).
To answer the question as it was presented:
- To answer the first part, does Confidant repair the damage done by pinpoint discard in a short enough time-frame to combo off before the opponent's pressure kills you? Then yes, but it seems to me that, if Confi lives, he adds to the opponent's pressure and doesn't do enough to help against having your key pieces ripped fom your hand.
- For the Second, are you finding Earwig Squad to be a problem? In the Goblins thread they've dismissed it as too slow to matter and haven't included it an any lists. I would be more concerned about the RB lists that run Cabal Therapy or the Rw builds with Orim's Chant than the seemingly sub-optimal Earwig Squad.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Hi, i'm also playing this deck, and I really like it (more then TES or something..). This is the build i'm testing:
// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity
- Should 3 Chants main be enough? I see everybody playing 3 main, but why not 1 more? (I dont know what to cut..)
- I don't like Serenity, you have to waste (3/)4 SB slots on it, because you cant tutor it with Mystical Tutor. I think, with all the bounce you play, you can (almost) always find a bounce that does the same thing as Serenity in that situation.
- I also don't like Sudden Death/Pyroclasm/etc to answer Teeg/MM, you have your bounce for them..
- The SB is 17 cards, since I don't know what to cut... (and its also meta dependent)
Tips for the list? Maybe the 4th Ponder/Chant..
Jip
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dlevsApiJ
Hi, i'm also playing this deck, and I really like it (more then TES or something..). This is the build i'm testing:
// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [JU] Death Wish
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
- Should 3 Chants main be enough? I see everybody playing 3 main, but why not 1 more? (I dont know what to cut..)
- I don't like Serenity, you have to waste (3/)4 SB slots on it, because you cant tutor it with Mystical Tutor. I think, with all the bounce you play, you can (almost) always find a bounce that does the same thing as Serenity in that situation.
- I also don't like Sudden Death/Pyroclasm/etc to answer Teeg/MM, you have your bounce for them..
- The SB is 17 cards, since I don't know what to cut... (and its also meta dependent)
Tips for the list? Maybe the 4th Ponder/Chant..
Jip
Personally, I'd cut an island for the 4th chant, and the Cruel Bargain/Death wish if you really want to fit in the 4th Ponder.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Duress is a pretty bad card in the sideboard. It's worse than Abeyance in this deck. Death Wish doesn't need to be more than a 1-of in the 75. That frees 3 slots right there. Dark Confidant isn't necessary as a 4-of with Cruel Bargain, which frees another slot. Tendrils isn't necessary unless you are facing down Earwig Squad, so that's another slot. You're at 3 real slots right now. I would highly recommend making those 3 slots Serenity because there is nothing else that costs 2 mana to hose both artifacts and enchantments at the same time so well. That you play 3-4 doesn't matter because you have a large amount of cantrips and if you see even one of them when you board it in, you win the game. There are very few cards that are "gg" material, and this is one of them.
Cutting sources that produce blue mana in a deck that most often mulligans for lack of blue mana is a bad idea. Anytime the second island is cut should be for a land that also taps to cast Ponder/Brainstorm/Mystical Tutor.
