Children of Korlis seems like it's got decent potential for a deck like this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Printable View
Children of Korlis seems like it's got decent potential for a deck like this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
meh i wouldn't overlook the man plan. it can be good if you make it the right way. im sure someone will eventually test and find out how much it sucks or how amazing it is.
against popular kills?
the man plan is better because:
tarmogoyf.. comes down on turn 2. you can play your goyf on turn 1 (lotus petal, chrome mox), and you can swing with it before they drop goyf before the draw.
against burn, you have SB space to beat it. angels grace and chant should help here.
against dreadnought, you already run bounce and play chant to race them. in this case, evasive creatures are good (ie. tombstalker and bitterblossum (and negator kinda, and Avatar of Discord if you play it) because the opponent will have blockers (in this case goyf may not be such a good idea). but either way, if its game 2, they know you are playing combo, nobody expects the man plan, the stifles would be saved for storm obviously, they won't play dreadnought.
crusher, terravore? you can race those easily. they come down as 3/3's usually (maybe larger depending on the number of fetches. you should beat aggro loam anyway.
against combo, chant is the MVP because you can stop them mid way from going off. AG seem like it could be a decent side in as well. and MD duress is always helpful too.
i don't know how to structure the man plan, its just an idea.
i'm trying to not say the same shit everyone else is saying (ie. 'no run 3 chrome mox, not 4.' 'No FT is better than TES!' ' etc..)
back there jericohs@cottage had a great post. you guys are brainstorming different ways to approach ANT, he gave one. it may not have been the greatest idea ever but it got my brain thinking at least. if you just take one approach to the deck you may not necessarily get anywhere. thats why i suggested the man plan.
i will say once again, Scragnoth is really strong vs. landstill/CB decks. it might be a nice side in. they can't remove it once it comes down. if those matchups give you trouble, then solve that matchup problem with 4 SB slots.
Please use capitals where needed. They will make your posts clearer.
-PR
With humility or by having a bigger creature (tarmo e.g.) facing him.
As I told before, the main problem with the man plan is that it will be your single SB option (with the one of not SBing). Intuitively, I would say it's better to place dedicated game breaking cards, because they exist, particularly in white, with serenity (affinity, stax) and angel's grace (any aggro + burn). You may want to try it, but yo ucan make the surprise only once in a game, not on G2 and G3. And even more problematic, the guy you raped on round 1 will talk about it to all his mates, so that you can be sure that everybody in the tourney will know your deviance by round 3.
How the hell do you manage to lose to aggro with the IGG loop in the deck...Quote:
Angel's grace + AN is a combo that I thought we all knew. First I thought it was stupid to transform a 1-card combo into a 2-card combo, but after some testing I realised that the aggro MU was almost the worst for the deck (since I run 8 MD protection + 1 bounce). First I tried to accelerate the combo in order to race those aggro decks. Then I realised that the AG+AN combo solved my aggro problems.
I dont thing 9 MD protection/bounce are needed 6 has worked perfectly for me. it leaves room for 3 ponder which is bombo for the turn 2 verson.
Just a thought about the bouncer slot. I'm currently playing Repeal, and I'm loving it. When playing Ad Nauseam I want my cards to worth the damage they deal to me, taking 4 to a Tendrils is ok to me since we need it to win, but getting 3 from a card that I won't use in many matchups is kind of disappointing. And Repeal has also a nice interaction with Mystical Tutor, specially after playing Ad Nauseam, when IT won't work all the time.
That was the post I was about to write.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
Good luck bouncing Gaddeck Teeg.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I was actually thinking that IGG loop should beat aggro pretty well. Of course, you do not always have it sitting in your hand though but you should be able to AdN into it.
You see you don't necessarily have to devote so much card space to a man plan. the tradition man plan that everyone thinks of is usually like 15 cards sided in, but that is not really necessary. You can apply pressure with both parts of your combo (as long as you don't try to AdN into tombstalker as that would cause you a headache, or kill you instantly and give your opponent a head rush instead). If you resolve AdN you can play down a shit ton of stuff cause you will draw alot of it.
Here's an example of my 'man plan':
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tomb of Urami
3 Naturalize
2 Massacre
2 Xantid Swarm
I'm not sure if this is the exact board I use but dam let me tell you, phyrexian negators have been much better for me then xantid swarm ever was. both are must counter for landstill or MUC (when you actually play against it) but negator ends the game quickly once and if it comes down. xantid swarm sits there for too long laughing because the opponent can't play countermagic but usually it gets bounced or something before i can actually go off.
I will say once again that Tomb of Urami has been excellent against Stax, Thresh and Landstill. I have used it against MUC too but the game was really weird (in that he had a counterspell for seriously everything i tried to play, mana sources, rituals and business. it was really pissing me off). Sometimes you can draw4 into a negator and play it and pass but if you can apply pressure (or at least i do pretty well) with your draw4's and your creatures, as you can just imprint negators you don't need on chrome moxen, or LED/IGG loop into a win and negator is just irrelevant. Its also a nice play and pass if you got fucked on a lack of business spells.
I don't believe that the man plan needs to have 15 cards, it can really just have 8.
I'm going to test Scragnoth btw as i think it would be amazing to drop one against landstill which can be a difficult matchup for me.
No offence man plan sucks, you only need it vs burn ironicaly. Its not a good idea if you fear the burn/aggro matchup board more IGG and tendrils like 2 IGG board and 1 tendrils would be a fine aggro board if you dont auto win the aggro match already (I was playing the burn matchup and it was really 1 sided ANT crushes the deck unless you flip outrageously bad)
Repeal is awesome........in vintage.
Teeg and Chalice at 1 are the reason because Repeal sucks.
Same for Chain of Vapor. It sucks in legacy.
About the problem: Orim vs Duress, there are an hundred of posts in this forum on the old FT/TES threads. If you have the patience to read, you can understand why players, with a little bit of experience with FT/TES, prefer Orim maindeck.
Why is Burn a problem? It seems the worst matchup from some comments.
It's simple: the plan A become the IGG loop, for this reason I side out a copy of AN. AN in this matchup is the plan B, I play it only if I can win easily in the first 2 turns if I remain with more than 5 lifes after AN resolves.
Again, why do we fill the SB of crappy cards like Angel's Grace and Children of Korlis? Orim is not enough for aggro matchup? Someone perhaps forget that aggro usually is a easy matchup for combo, so I repeat: why do you use card like these?
Is Burn or Dreadstill the worst matchup?
The world upside down.
Man plan sucks. You improve partially a few matchups, but you haven't response in SB to all others. I try it with Stalker, Confidant, Hyppie & Negator, but I waste my time. If you want to waste your time, I don't block you.
The IGG setup is not as easy as the AN one (you need a lot of mana, IT and the ability to empty your hand). Moreover, it is often difficult to make a 10-storm with a single IGG. Plus with pyrostatic pillar in play, you automatically lose with the IGG loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I think I would consider sensei's divining top before ponder because it enables you to find tendrils with a single blue source. Moreover it's often better in a deck that can shuffle that often. Maybe, I'm not brave enough, but I really think that playing a protection is worth to lose 1 turn.Quote:
I dont thing 9 MD protection/bounce are needed 6 has worked perfectly for me. it leaves room for 3 ponder which is bombo for the turn 2 verson.
CoK is clearly bad, AG is far better, but you rhétoric is faulty, you say that those cards are bad, because they are crappy... As I told earlier, relying on the IGG plan is too random.Quote:
Again, why do we fill the SB of crappy cards like Angel's Grace and Children of Korlis? Orim is not enough for aggro matchup? Someone perhaps forget that aggro usually is a easy matchup for combo, so I repeat: why do you use card like these?
Hmm I wonder why Fetchland Tendrils plays IGG, it's Clearly bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
:rolleyes: You're suggesting a 2-card combo with for 7 mana(4BBW) allow me to suggest Trix then. It cost the same but is in one color. IGG is quite easy to set up, there are more possibilities then LED/LED/IT. Also later in the game with a big yard and little life IGG is very powerfull. It's also powerfull in fighting discard.
BB
BB
Why are you arguing that IGG is powerful. Of course it is. I even play 1 copy MD, but to my mind it's not enough to ensure to win the burn MU. My 2 cards combo costs 6 manas (3BBW) and it's far more easy to gather than the IT/IGG combo. Playing both enables you to follow one plan or another, enables you to go off on turn 1 or 2 with only AN. And AG can also be a card that counters the opposing lethal fireblast, giving you the time to combo at least one turn later. And finally, pyrostatic pillar does not mean GG with AG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
Edit: yesterday, I've won against a Dragon Stompy build that had Chalice@1, Chalice@2 and a moon effect into play thanks to an IGG loop, so I know how it can win desperate situations. I had no bounce because I had to bounce a creature in order to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
What is happening lately, people have problems speaking english... WHAT!?
Repeal is awesome in Vintage? For a while, maybe like a year ago. People don't play Teeg in Vintage. The only deck that used Teeg was Dawn of the Dead. And that deck wasn't even tier 1. I would call that deck "FAIR". Second, in Vintage you drop Chalice at 0, not 1.
Why does Chain of Vapor suck in Legacy? This guy thinks he's the tits and ass of magic ladies and gentlemen cause he doesn't bother with explaining his posts at all...lol When jegger says something he's right and no explanations necessary.
:tongue:
I have played both and played TES and FT. I perfer TES because it is faster. But here duress is indeed better then FT because when AdN goes off without protection it doesnt fear stifle, or such, It fears only 1-2 cards force and (counter spell) If your off its over. Thats just the way the game plays, duress helps you get off easier then chant does when your first sources are lower then say TES. You have no spirit guides and need a crapton of black mana so you just happen to be able to disrupt them.Quote:
About the problem: Orim vs Duress, there are an hundred of posts in this forum on the old FT/TES threads. If you have the patience to read, you can understand why players, with a little bit of experience with FT/TES, prefer Orim maindeck.
I think we can excuse his English seeing as he is from Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
Also, I think he was saying that people play Teeg and Chalice@1 in Legacy thus making Repeal/CoV less than ideal in Legacy. Just to clear that up.
True. This is the sense of my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
And sorry for my bad english.
Please, can you send me in pvt the mistakes I do in my posts?
I want to learn.
I've been assimilated by the english. Shouldn't everyone else be assimilated by now. I don't know a single country on the face of the earth that doesn't actively use the universal and easy to learn language. ;-)
You can say a lot of things about English, but it's not easy to learn to speak or write well because it's incosistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
what is Ad Nauseam? Can someone please explain.
-----------------------------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulletus
Ad Nauseam
Instant--3BB
Reveal the top card of your library. You lose life equal to the card's casting cost and put that card into your hand. Repeat as many times as you choose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Not exact wording, but that is in essence what it does.
Oh, and the quote is now sigged. Lol.
i know it may sound a little ridiculous but how does spell snare sound as a side in vs. control? you can counter CB, meddling mage, gaddock teeg.. im not sure if it counters chalice at 1 but that would be sick as hell too. and it counters counterspell. so if you are on the play in game 2, you mull for discard to get rid of CB or mull for spell snare to counter it. thoughts?
Thoughtseize would be better because it doesn't force you to play a reactive game and takes FOW as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
but thoughseize is kinda meh with AdN. you need that life. and you are already losing life from fetches.
plus they are expecting discard so they wana play that shit ASAP, which will make it run unprotected into your little surprise. which is why i backed up somebody before when they suggested testing daze.
EDIT:
and against control why is a reactive game plan relevant if they cant drop the permanent based hate that is fucking you over in the first place? they dont have a clock anyway. at least one that is relevant to something as fast as this is.
I think it's better to have different solutions for different threats, like slaughter pact, duress, chant and serenity. And bounces are here for the universality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
but why waste all that SB space on different answers when you could just use one? that doesnt make sense to me.. and this is an answer that costs U for like almost everything. you can cut a lot out of the board and free it up for other matchups. no?Quote:
I think it's better to have different solutions for different threats, like slaughter pact, duress, chant and serenity. And bounces are here for the universality.
If you think it's really for almost everything, then play it MD but in SB, you need to split the usecases of each slot, and it's difficult to find the complementary of snare.
Yes you can counter Chalice at 1 with Spell snare.
I personnaly think that Duress is the best card against Control in this deck.
What do you think of this?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20273
It has Top8'ed a 90-people event, that gives some credit to the list, I think. I really like the inclussion of SDT as a colorless (aka black) way of drawing the Tendrils you put in in the top of your library with Mystical in a post Nuaseam scenario, as it's often difficult for you to get UU when you go fast and play Nauseam tapped. It is also an effcient card when paired with eight fetchlands ass we all know.
I like it :smile:. Though a singleton Top would be better imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
I'm not sure whether this ANT list was linked here before but it's definitely noteworthy. It won a 47 player tournament afterall..___(!4 Merchant Scroll:really: )
That's an interesting list. I would really like to read that tournament report. I'm suspect of thos Scrolls and Diamonds, though I guess the scrolls do get a lot better post board. If Sensei's Divining Top finds a home as more than a 1-of it might be worth considering some number of Doomsdays. Looks like AdN is well on its way to the DTB forum already...Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus;286119I'm not sure whether [URL="http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20140"
i agree. very interesting. i can kinda see the diamonds being useful in getting rid of all those extra land you draw off of AdN. but merchant scroll really puzzles me. its it jus for looking for the bounce or something? i guess it could make sense if meditate was in here but i dont see it in here.. wtf.Quote:
)
That's an interesting list. I would really like to read that tournament report. I'm suspect of thos Scrolls and Diamonds, though I guess the scrolls do get a lot better post board. If Sensei's Divining Top finds a home as more than a 1-of it might be worth considering some number of Doomsdays. Looks like AdN is well on its way to the DTB forum already...
LOL you people. Really?
We just had this discussion like 4 pages ago for both of the decklists (just checked - 5 pages ago for the 47-man, 3 pages ago for the 90-man). The 90 person decklist is jegger's friend, and jegger already explained his card choices. jegger also mentioned the one that placed in the 47 person. But for the sake of people who don't like reading threads, I'll post my observations again.
Merchant Scroll dodges Chalice @ 1.
May not seem like a big deal to some people, but if you've ever had to go up against it g1 you'll know that you've basically lost unless you already have your bounce in hand, or have a godlike 7 that can play around Chalice. I was playtesting against Dragon Stompy, and the moon effects actually become very relevant when this happens (building up mana to play around Chalice/Trinisphere), and I actually condone jegger's suggestion for running 2 Islands (should you expect moon effects in your meta). Also, remember Merchant Scroll is "to hand". Yes, it's still sorcery; yes it still lets your opponent read you for free; but it dodges that freaking chalice.
Mox Diamonds serve as initial mana sources post Ad Nauseum.
Often times going off after AdN, you won't have any spare mana floating, or very little if you do (unless you cracked LED, but that doesn't all the time). That's why I kept saying that Chrome Mox should stay @ 4, because finding that starting source of mana is crucial. Mox Diamond is iffy since there's so few lands, but look at it this way: Diamond is indeed a permanent mana source, it allows the deck to speed up a bit more and possibly negate the drawbacks from cards like Merchant Scroll, and up the consistency of post AdN mana sources. Colors can also be a problem (SOMETIMES), believe it or not, so I guess that's another +1 for Mox Diamond.
Don't mean to be rude or sound like an asshole, but please read the thread, especially when we spent an entire page talking about this stuff already.
Also, jegger has the link to the 90-man tournament report, but it's up to him if he wants to post it here or not since it's all in Italian.
Responding to a PM for an updated list,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten gains
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
13 Land and 4 Chrome Mox is the "sweet spot" between hitting land drops and building Threshold and the speed and consistency of the artifact mana.
It's light on disruption, but you can get around most counter walls by using Infernal Tutor to double your discard spells or SB in Thought Seizes. You're resilient against Spellsnare and Stifle and can race Counterspell, so Orim's Chant isn't much of a loss.
My apologies, some people (myself included) simply do not have time to read every post of every thread. Maybe we could get an update on the OP?
The list that won the 47 man event only faced a single blue deck, Meathooks. I don't know about the details of each round, but he played (in round order) Aggro Loam 2-1, Boros 2-0, Meathooks 2-0, Belcher 2-1, bye, 2-1 Boros.
Uh...the 47 player event? That's from MAGIC-LEAGUE. That's like the worst spot to get reliable information for decks ever. I remember a time where Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa won a pretty large sized standard trial with some janky deck, and everyone on that website was like "lolomg look at how newb we are lol".Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Even the deck player himself said that Merchant Scroll sucked and he wished it was something else. His matchups were also:
Round 1: 2-1 Aggro Loam
Round 2: 2-0 Boros
Round 3: 2-0 Meathooks
Round 4: 2-1 Belcher
Round 5: bye
Round 6: 2-1 Boros
Are you kidding me? No Dreadstill/fish, no Threshold, no Faerie/Dragon Stompy, no Counterbalance in sight, hell, not even an Ichorid deck that could have potentially raced him since he didn't even play Orim's Chant. That's not even close to being good backup data for that version.
Merchant Scroll blows in this deck, as does Mox Diamond.
Edit: omg Jaiminho you ho, totally gimped my post :P. Damn you and your fast typing skills.
As for the 90 player event, his list is almost exactly like the one that I was testing a couple of weeks ago (I had -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Pact of Negation and +2 something else, maybe a Ponder and a land). I talked about SDT like in the beginning of this thread too, but eventually I found that to utilize SDT to the fullest, you needed alot more lands, and I might as well be playing Doomsday FT.
Owned. That round thing info is what I posted on mtgsal. Couldn't find it quicker than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Even in FT, Top ends up sometimes being only a Street Wraith that allows some piles that Wraith itself wouldn't, since Meditate will end up being a draw 3, not a draw 4, allowing LED mana to be used before drawing that 4th card. Still, in slower matches, Top is totally insane. AN doesn't like slow games, so it can't abuse Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Hot news. In the spanish blogosphere I've heard several references of ANT making 2 top8 at the last tournament of the Lliga Catalana de Legacy with a great assistance of 96 players. Decklists will be published soon, probably this week. ANT menaces with reaching DtB status in its very first month. :eek:
I won the 50 man Hassloch tourney today with the following list:
4x delta
4x strand
3x usea
2x tundra
1x island
1x swamp
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x led
4x petal
4x chrome mox
4x infernal
4x mystical
4x brainstorm
4x duress
4x chant
4x ad nauseam
1x tendrils
1x iggy
My SB sucked, so I won't mention it. I don't think bounce spells are needed in the mainboard, as you can play around Chalice and they probably won't bounce Counterbalance (you'd have to play Wipe Away, which I personaly think is too narrow: too expensive for the MB). I didn't have any special CB hate in the SB as I think the best play is to Duress/Chant them and/or rush the CB. It worked out for me pretty well two times against ITF.
I beat: Survival, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy (horrible MU!), Imperial Painter, 2x ITF.