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I personalty don't like wasteland, Karakas or Kor :Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
wasteland : your land drops are more important then your opponents, you do not care about your opponents lands like maze or karakas
Karakas : If you could fetch for it I would understand the inclusion of this land in the deck. ( why make your self more vulnerable to wastes ? )
Kor : same as Karakas
factory: I don't think it's needed in this deck. ( I think it's better in a land still variant of that deck )
I've playtested with alot of different configurations in the past few years with this deck, and I will say that each has its pros and cons. I will also say that changes in the metagame often make one choice which was bad before good now, and vice versa.
I already explained why I'm playtesting with Factory at the moment, but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind and try something else later.
I have been liking Mishra's Factory alot in testing, though. I run 4 mass sweepers (Terminus), and Factories stick around to continue applying pressure afterwards, or provide a nice 3/3 chump blocker if I need it (usually when I need to protect Jace or something). Clocking an opponent with just 3 SCM is a pretty bad backup plan, but clocking an opponent with 4 Factory 3 SCM is not.
If I upped my Entreat count to 3, Factory would be less necessary. I've been satisfied with my Entreat count for now, though.
EDIT: Honestly, I might reconsider Elspeth again for testing purposes. Entreat is without a doubt clearly more powerful, but I like that Elspeth forces opponents to overcommit into Terminus, and then she sticks around afterwards. She can then jump a Factory in the air, or rebuild a new token army. She plays nicely with postboard Humility, too. Elspeth is lower in overall power level to that of Entreat, but she's easier to cast and has more synergy with the deck overall. Much to think about, I suppose.
I agree that the factories make for a good kill condition. But I think that it's not needed in this deck . It all comes down to play still and what you want ( a stable mana base or another win condition )Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I totally agree with you that 2 Entreat is the right number
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Elspeth provides a good mix. She doesn't take a lot to set up (just have mana) and works well with Terminus. If you prefer a variety of options to get your game going, Elspeth and Entreat the Angels can go well together.
Wasteland
On Cavern of Souls, what I noticed too is that some Sliver deck users are really juicing up on its no-counter, any-color gift, and combined with Aether Vial it becomes a lot more painful to deal with because of the increased consistency and speed of threats, in different kinds and colors. So far, that and Goblins are the ones really utilizing that new powerful land. I'm not sure yet if we should "waste" them or just mind our own game. There's not much of them I think...for now.
I did not get to play vs cavern in legacy yet but between my main and side board I have 4 STP 4 Terminus and 1 devastation tide + vs vial and aggro decks I board out my counter spellsQuote:
Originally Posted by sarapfish
Slivers doesn't have Matron and Ringleader, so I'm alot less worried about them than I am about Goblins. Goblins has historically been a rather difficult matchup for this deck, but I really like what Terminus MD and Humility SB do to improve the matchup. Entreat the Angels in the midgame is also pretty brutal, since they lack sweepers, 4/4 bodies block all their stuff clean, and they can't block the fliers in return.
I tried running Mishra's Factory (x3) and it seems that it's worth testing. Not really a burden on the manabase, and they provide valuable punches offensively when the coast is clear as well as defensively against lighter threats. I like it so far.
Other than that, the tweaking is mostly on the number of entreats (so far 2 seems to be the effective number but still testing 3), and planeswalkers (with Elspeth or not).
Avacyn Restored gave us good direction, with Terminus and Entreat both entering as possible mainstays and maybe part of the deck's new skeleton.
I'd say at this point that Terminus is obviously a mainstay. This deck is naturally built to take advantage of the Miracle effects, similarly to why the deck was able to use Predict in the earlier versions. A 1 mana WoG effect is extremely powerful.Quote:
Avacyn Restored gave us good direction, with Terminus and Entreat both entering as possible mainstays and maybe part of the deck's new skeleton.
I remember back a year or two ago when people were running Firespout instead of Wrath of God because it cost 1 less mana.
Entreat isn't necessarily a mainstay, since it has less synergy with Terminus than Elspeth does. It's power level is well beyond Elspeth's though, so personally I'll be giving up some synergy for the more powerful effect (and stick with Entreat).
new top 8 on the last scg open:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=46650
\\Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Sensei's Divining Top
\\Enchantments
1 Humility
\\Instants
2 Banishing Stroke
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
\\Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
\\Sorceries
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Temporal Mastery
4 Terminus
\\Basic Lands
4 Island
2 Plains
\\Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
\\Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
\\Sideboard:
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Culling Scales
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Negate
I would say there are a lot of things to talk about.
1. kind of special sideboard
2. 3 TM??
3. No CB main
4. THREE entreat the angels
5. 3 Spell Snare in a Sneak and Tell and RUG meta?
6. 2 Banishing Stroke (I like them)
7. Wasteland over Mishras
8. 3 StP, maybe ok with 4 Terminuas and 2 Banishing Stroke
9. 1 Humility main?
I can see that crucible with TM is strong, especially with wasteland and/or fetchland. This list is interesting at least. Any thoughts?
The way it got crushed against MUD was discouraging. I've been testing the various UW control builds discussed in this thread against Sneak and Show and that deck can easily match our counters to cheat a fatty quicker than we can set up defenses. I think the top 3 decks that UW Control should aim to beat are RUG, Sneak and Show, Maverick. I would say the current matchups are favorable for Maverick, even for RUG and unfavorable for Sneak and Show. It needs improvement on those matchups if it's going to get a decent position in the metagame (taling about the general UW Miracle archetype here, not that specific list).
Upping the MD Spell Pierce count is what naturally comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Thoughts?
...splashing black for Thoughtseize and Liliana is what I do. I think I can help out at that MU as I played SneakAttack for quite awhile and left the sinking ship last week. What SneakAttack can't deal with:
Discard, followed by Counter
Ethersworn Canonist, followed by Counter
Pithing Needle, followed by Counter
I will post my own list later today, even though it might not be too good, cause it's been quite awhile since I last played Control-Decks. I was only playing stupid Combo-Decks in the last months (Dredge, SneakAttack).
Greetings
Went 3-0 at a small local event yesterday with the following list:
Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Porphyry Nodes
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Notes:
I feel that Elspeth is a must. She's so good at buying time in a proactive way (Rather than Jace-bounce defensively) and presents a threat that opponents need to answer before she and the cards you're amassing take over the game. Entreat is like putting all your eggs in one basket, if it resolves, cool you probably win, but like Hanni has said, you want to be entreating for more than 2 usually, meaning elspeth is an earlier drop and she can start over if the board's wiped (ee, e.truth, etc...).
CB in the main, not side. This seems to be the consensus now, but let me reiterate. It's very good against almost everything played right now. I've been playing 3 SDT, 3 CB, not sure what's correct, but I don't think 4 of each is necessary (I might test more with 4 SDTs though), but I like having the 2 extra spots in the main for cards like Elspeth/Oring/Porphyry Nodes.
Which leads me to Porphyry Nodes. It's a main deck answer to S&T shenanegins, but unlike Oring, can deal with Progenitus. It's also admirable against any deck that plans on having more than 1 creature out at a time. It's a free extra removal spell for a couple turns.
I agree with Hanni that at least 1 Oblivion Ring main is something to consider. It answers a lot of unexpected things, but also provides another main deck answer to things like S&T.
Now the SB. I'm waiting for my other Humility to arrive, so I figured try Ensnaring bridge in its place for the time. I haven't had to play agaisnt S&T yet though, so I don't know how the rest fairs. I will say though, the first 11 cards (down to E.Tutor) are very solid SB choices right now, I side all of them in a lot and they feel right. Humility is necessary right now I'd say, at least 2. I would like to try out pithing needle, might run a couple this week.
As for the land debate, I don't know what's correct. I prefer consistency and therefore have avoided colorless sources. But, I am tempted to try factories as a 2-3 of. I also don't like the Academy Ruins that some people are running for just their SDTs? If I try out a ruins, I'd like to work an EE or 2 into the 75 to make it worth it.
I prefer Counterspell and Spell Pierce. Snare is too conditional for the current meta, and the other 2 are answer-alls pretty much, I like knowing I have definite answers. Main deck pierces are awesome, so many people still don't seem to realize that it's a maindeck card in decks other than RUG or UR Delver and play right into it G1.
After having finally played the deck at a big tournament (and miserably drawing 4 rounds out of 7), I definitely think factory is good in this deck. Entreat and jace just aren't reliable and fast enough as win-cons to avoid drawing repeatedly. Elspeth might help too I guess.
I played UW Miracles at SCG: Columbus and placed 44th after going 0-2 in the first two rounds. I also know the player that made top 8 at this event and helped with some of the card choices that he was playing. I will post my list, which is more streamlined compared to the heavy miracle list he was running, and a small tournament report later today or tomorrow if anyone wants to read it.
I would love to read about a report and card choices between your list and his. A friend of mine has been playing a UWb control list with terminus counters and thopter combo for a kill. In our testing it has a very good matchup against RUG delver and sneak show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
I've been stomping RUG and Maverick with the decklist I posted. I haven't had a chance to play against Sneak/Show with it, but I've played that matchup a bunch in the past. They gained Griselbrand since then, while I gained Terminus.
The matchup before was just fine for me. I'm slow with no clock, but I have hard counters. Most Sneak/Show lists I've seen run 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Misdirection, 2 Pierce/Fluster. I'm usually capable of playing around Daze, and them having 7 "pitch" counters means I can gas them out. I run 4 FoW 4 Counterspells, and just because I only have 4 3cc spells for Counterbalance, does not make Counterabalance irrelevant. Countering even one or two cantrips with Counterbalance can gas them out, to the point where they might not even have a blue spell to pitch to the FoW in their hand.
Going in, they have 4 Griselbrands. The other half of their creature base is 4 Emrakul. If they SNT Emrakul, I have 2 Jace TMS, 2 Oblivion Ring, and 4 Terminus to answer him. That's a buttload, considering we're talking about a resolved SNT. Sneak Attack -> Emrakul is harder to deal with, but Top still enables instant speed Terminus, and Oblivion Ring can still answer Sneak Attack if they can't pay the extra R immediately.
Griselbrand is more difficult to answer, since he can draw them 14 cards once resolved, dodging removal in that regard, but that doesn't mean they automatically win. I've beaten several Reanimator decks now after Griselbrand resolved. I realize Sneak/Show isn't Reanimator, but I can still see there being games where they draw 14 cards, put another fatty into play, I Terminus before they swing, and then close it out with Factory beats. They can't Misdirect Terminus, and Daze doesn't stop Termi either.
Postboard, Humility is an awesome trump card, especially when protected by Counterbalance. There are an assload of options in U/W, and even more with a color splash. Needle, Meddling Mage, Peacekeeper (did you guys forget about this awesome wittle guy?), Aura of Silence, Ensnaring Bridge (I wouldn't recommend this in this deck, but it's a great option in Thopters), Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Vendilion Clique, so on and so forth. Black offers discard, red offers REB. There are plenty of answers to Sneak and Show. This matchup shouldn't be that worrisome. Let the hype wear down.
Lands (22):
3x Tundra
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Mishra’s Factory
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
Spells (30):
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
2x Counterspell
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Spell Pierce
Creatures (4):
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (4):
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Side (15):
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Humility
3 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vendilion Clique
One’s: 13
Two’s: 9
Three’s: 4
Four’s: 4
Five’s: 4
Six’s: 4
Let me preface this tournament report with I have never played a Counterbalance deck before in my life.
Round 1: Eric Fry with MUD (Placed Second)
Game 1: I remember seeing him play at GP: Indy with Death and Taxes. I keep my hand with natural turn 2 Counterbalance Top. I ended up being crushed by having to Force a Chalice of the Void on the first turn and then he was able to resolve lightning greaves, metalworker into Forgemaster and then into Sundering Titan leaving me with one island on turn 3…. He wasn’t on Death and Taxes.
Game 2: Much of the same thing happened except he had trinisphere on turn 2, which I had to Force. He then played 2 grim monoliths into lightning greaves into forgemaster into blightsteel colossus.
0-1
Round 2: Dale Boyce with Burn
Game 1: I mulligan to 4 cards as my seven had 3 Miracle cards in it and the sequential hands were poop. I finally kept when I had one land that tapped for blue mana. He starts off and goes mountain goblin guide attack…. Next game.
Game 2: I keep a better hand and assemble counterbalance top on turn 3. I end up brainstorming on my fourth turn and put back a plains and an Elspeth, Knight-Errant…. My hand contained a Snapcaster Mage and a Sensei’s Divining Top after the brainstorm. I optimized my brainstorm but didn’t optimize the counterbalance top package. The next turn I was burned out since I was only at 5 life and fell to 3 after the Goblin guide attacked.
Side note: Adrian Sullivan was seated right next to me and his match ended before mine. I think he was on BUG Control and his opponent was playing Merfolk (Might be seeing a comeback!?). After the second game Adrian asked me if I would like some advice and told me about the brainstorm misplay. I thanked him and applied his advice for the rest of the day. Later when I got home I was watching the first round of coverage from Nashville where Adrian mentioned that his second to least favorite deck in legacy was Dredge. Adam Prosak guessed his least favorite deck was high tide. Surprisingly, Adrian’s least favorite deck is Counterbalance…. Anyways, mad props to Adrian Sullivan for offering helpful advice even if it is someone who likes to durdle around with Counterbalances and Tops.
0-2
Round 3: Joe Kovach with Reanimator
Game 1: It looks like he was playing with a semi budget list without entombs being the most notable card. He replaced it with buried alive which seemed fine especially against a deck with not many 3 drops compared to one drops to flip with a counterbalance. He ends up punting game 1 when he plays Iona and names blue instead of white. I have been floating a terminus at the top on my deck a pulled the trigger during his attack stop. He ends up reanimating two more creatures which are taken care of with swords and snapcaster mage. I eventually get the counterbalance lock and beat down with factories and cliques.
Game 2: This wasn’t much of a game as I had surgical in hand and a snapcaster. I drew into another surgical and assembled top and counterbalance around turn 5 or so. Creatures went beat down and I won the first match of the day.
1-2
Round 4: Patrick Tea with UR Delver
Game 1: He stated that this was the first legacy event that he was playing in and that he was borrowing most of the cards from friends. It looked like his deck was fine with the exception of his manabase. He was running sulfur falls and a steam vents because he couldn’t find volcanic islands. I end up stabilizing at 7 life and Vendilion Clique beat him down.
Game 2: Much of the same happened. I stabilize at 6 life, setup the lock and beat him down with snapcaster and a factory. During one of the games he played a Karakas……I guess UR doesn’t have very many answers to Sneak Attack and he apparently worked it into his mana base.
2-2
Round 5: Erick Stone with Dredge
He ends up being seated next to a friend and they have a little conversation that went like, “You should be X-0 if you didn’t miss your triggers.” I then replied with “Oh, so you’re that guy.” My opponent looks at me funny and I explain, “You’re playing dredge, aren’t you?” My opponent denies it a bit and his friend changes the subject. I press on saying, “Yep, changing the subject so soon. You’re definitely that guy.” He then confirms it even before the match started.
Game 1: After forcing his first discard outlet and he sac’s his LED and flashes looting back. He only has a thug and didn’t flip over anything relevant. I see what might be the worst flop he could get from his second attempt at dredging leaving him to draw until his hand fills up. I eventually find an entreat the angels and cast it at the end of one of his turns and swung for lethal.
Game 2: keep a hand with Surgical extraction and after he sac’s LED to flashback a looting I surgical the grave troll leaving him with just a thug. He doesn’t flip much but it’s better than last time. He ends up getting a Sun titan and some zombies on the field. Topdeck and see the terminus and drop it on the table. I then end up extracting his Narcomebas and his Ichorids leaving him with no effective way of producing zombies besides a lone bloodghast. I end up finding another entreat the angels to take the game away.
3-2
Round 6: Jerrod Webb with Dream Halls
Game 1: It ends up being draw go for a while knowing he was playing some Show and Tell variant from shuffling. I put him on Sneak Attack as it’s the most popular one right know. I go for a counterbalance and I believe he forces it and I let it die. He gets a third island and I then know it’s probably Dream Halls as sneak attack normally plays 2 Islands (Ran the list last weekend) and Hive Mind would have fetched duals to potentially pay for a slaughter pact or pact of the titan. He ends up casting dream halls and I have to let it resolve. He passes the turn and I discard a swords to play an Elspeth. He casts a conflux and I have the force of will. I then clock him with and Elspeth, soldier token, and a factory.
Game 2: Dream halls ends up resolving again but he just passes the turn meanwhile I have been attacking with factory. I draw and top and find the entreat the angels. I pass the turn and make enough angels to ensure I win on my turn.
4-2
Round 7: Jerry Yang with Sneak and Show
A mutual Judge friend walks by and says he had faith in Jerry and none for me in this tournament and he hopes Jerry crushes me. It was probably provoked due to the fact I told him the Maverick list he sent me earlier in the week was not coherent enough to actually play. His list contained many non-creatures with 4 Thalia main board. Including having the plan to turn 2 a Thalia and then ramping up to 5 mana to play a main board Armageddon as a plan to beat Sneak Attack.
Game 1: He does what Sneak Attack does and he Sneaks in an Emrakul to kill me on turn 3 or 4.
Game 2: I play a turn one Karakas to let him know he is not going to be killing me that easily. He ends up show and telling and I put clique into play. In response to the triggered ability I bounce the griselbrand to his hand with karakas and see a hand of monsters and sneak attack but no actual way to produce a red mana. I let him keep his hand and clock him with clique and karakas back up. On one turn he REB my clique and I return it to my hand. Luckily he had no way of Sneaking an Emrakul into play and I play the clique again at the end of his turn which seals the deal.
Game 3: He goes for turn 3 show and tell and I immediately let it resolve and have my card picked before he has his. He flips over an Emrakul and I flip over Humility (Greatest card ever!). I then play a factory on my turn which is still a 2/2 due to layering and I race his 1/1 emrakul with my awesome Spring time Mishra’s Factory.
5-2
Round 8: Raymond Perez with GWb Maverick (Black for Bobs and I think discard if I remember right)
Game 1: I played Maverick at GP: Indy show I knew how the match up would play out. The game lasts long but a timely terminus could have spelled disaster for him. I do not find it in time and I know I’m in a bad position as I look at the clock and there is only 22 minutes left. So, I quickly sideboard and shuffle up.
Game 2: I feel in control all throughout this game. An early porphyry nodes stunted his board and allowed me to setup Counterbalance top, which is effective but still not the best thing you want to be doing. He only has two cards in hand and I know I need to hurry up and win so I tap out to play Jace the Mindsculptor and fateseal. Not seeing anything too terribly relevant. I then played a porphyry nodes to further stunt him. He draws the irrelevant card and slams a choke….He said it was in his opener but I can’t believe I actually ran into it. He passes his turn and I kill his arbor and the second nodes die. I’m stunted on 2 mana (factory and plains) luckily I have counterbalance and top in play. I fateseal and pass. He plays a 2 drop and I top and can not find a two drop to save my life or even a disenchant to destroy the choke. This continues and I grind Jace up to 13 counters. I have Snapcaster and swords to block and swords his other guy. I start to believe I have won through choke and make the play when he attacks. He then responds with the tormod’s crypt he laid on turn 2 or 3 which I forgot about. Jace fell below 12 and He grinds me out…. I know I misplayed in this game and it was a terrible feeling. Luckily the guy I played the game with was probably my coolest opponent of the day and I enjoyed the games we played.
5-3
Round 9: Matt Lucas with BW Zombies
Game 1: He leads with a scrubland and carrion feeder and I think he is on some rwb zombies list with goblin bombardment. He then lays down a Messenger and I take 4 instantly and get hit with the Feeder. He then plays the rack. Meantime, I assemble Counterbalance and Top but it was too late as he was able to grind out the game with the rack even after I swords and snapcaster swords his guys.
Game 2: I assemble counterbalance top and swords a few of his guys and clock him with snapcaster and a factory. His deck is full of ones and twos and counterbalance literally steals the game away. In this game he did land a rack and after hymning me a few times I hand to build my hand up again. Luckily I had a top which allowed me to play around the rack while fixing my draws.
Game 3: Much of the same as game 2. Swords, Surgical, Snapcaster, and Counterbalance with top won me the game pretty handily. At one point I start to wonder why I never saw a disenchant in either this game or in game 2 to get rid of the rack as it forced me to play top, top, then draw with top at the end of his turn in order to not take damage from the rack. As it turns out, I never boarded them in…. oh well I guess I didn’t need them anyways.
6-3
I place 44th out of 258 players even after starting the day out in the 0-2 bracket.
As you can tell my list is more streamlined when comparing it to Belfatto’s list. When miracles got spoiled we discussed how the miracle mechanic was insane and how I thought the deck to beat in legacy would be a UW landstill list with terminus and entreat the angels. Belfatto was insistent on banishing stroke and temporal mastery making the cut too but I was more hesitant to agree. We talk about what would be the optimal list for miracles and I believed it was something with counterbalance because of the natural combo with top. But we both agreed that slamming a terminus into a standstill is backbreaking for an opponent.
Flash forward a couple of weeks and Belfatto ran his list at a local legacy tournament for an imperial seal. I took a look at his list and saw it with basically 4 of every miracle including 4 stroke, 4 mastery, 4 terminus, and I think 3-4 entreat the angels. I again expressed how I didn’t like the stroke or the mastery but Belfatto is kind of stubborn and disregarded it. I couldn’t play in the tournament because of a friend scheduling his wedding on the same date, but after the wedding I headed up to the store to check out what was going on. I was surprised to see Belfatto in the top 4 playing his “dedicated” miracles list. His list hasn’t changed much besides the tutor package and cutting some of the miracles. 2 Stroke, 3 Mastery, 3 Entreat, and 4 Terminus.
The following weeks we discussed the sideboard and I told him about porphyry nodes. He looked at it and said, “why not play culling scales?” I saw that it was 3 mana and I didn’t like it. It targets permanents where nodes doesn’t making it a house against mongeese and geist of saint trafts. It also wrecks Maverick and other creature based aggro decks for only one white mana compared to three. However, in typical Belfatto fashion, this weekend I understood why culling scales was so good and it’s because you can target your top with it and draw with your top making it so that you never have to sac it unlike the nodes. I saw him do this to a Maverick opponent and his opponent was completely locked out. I believe when I tune the list again I am going to be running a split between the two cards as culling scales can be good against other non-aggro decks.
The kill conditions in our decks are also different. I elected to go with Mishra’s factory due to the synergy they have with Humility, as well as snapcaster mage, Jace, and clique. In his deck, it relies heavily on winning with either a Jace or an entreat the angels and I did not want to stuck with only 6 win cons.
The debate with Factories and Wasteland is also very deck dependent. They both can win you games and as for which I think is better, it depends on what you are more comfortable with. I experimented with a UW miracle landstill deck that ran both a few weeks ago and deemed that it was too many colorless sources. However, a 3/2 split may not be a bad thing especially with crucible of worlds which I opted not to play as I only ran 3 factories. If you are playing wastelands then you almost have to play crucible of worlds.
I still feel like stroke should be cut or played as just a one of. It’s a good card but your hands will get awkward when you have a ton of miracles and no brainstorm. The masteries have grown on me a little but I would not play more than two. It definitely can help you accelerate you in the early game and reverse a mulligan but it still seems like casting one without a planeswalker or something to attack is not very exciting and what’s the point in playing an explore over a snapcaster mage?
As for the enlightened tutor package, I ended up cutting it because of the Surgical Extractions. I felt while running snapcaster mage that I should be running Surgical Extractions instead of relic of progenitus which is also very good on it's own. Because of that it left me with too few artifact and enchantments to actually play the tutor package and I opted to just run more humilitry, nodes, and spell pierce.
Anyways, I’m glad Belfatto did very well all weekend and my deck performed amazingly after round 2 for me even though I finished building it the day of at 6:00am.
@Fade
Nice report and great list. Congrats on your finish! Porphyry Nodes seem to be the attention catcher here, as I've never used them.
I've upped my Mishra's Factory count to 4, trying to get a confirmation as to whether it burdens the manabase stability or not. So far so good, and I've been enjoying the after-terminus beating it provides. I think I'll go with this route and not play with Wastelands.
Well, with (Vial) Merfolk no longer a pillar of the format anymore, Standstill does get a bit stronger. Expect (Vial) Goblins with Cavern of Souls to make a comeback at some point, though.Quote:
But we both agreed that slamming a terminus into a standstill is backbreaking for an opponent.
My issue with Standstill is still the speed of the format. Most aggro decks these decks have a ton of 1-drops, and decks with larger cc creatures usually have ramp to accelerate them out. This is usually coupled by 4 Wastelands. This means you literally need to hit a Terminus to be able to reliably drop a Standstill.
My comparison with Standstill has always been Counterbalance. Both spells are two mana blue enchantments. Both spells create card advantage. The difference being Standstill is immediate CA when broken, whereas Counterbalance is incrimental advantage over the course of the game. Neither card will bring you back from a bad position (i.e the opponent has doods on the board), but Standstill is literally uncastable in those positions while Counterbalance is, and Counterbalance can help stop the bleeding by preventing more damage from being done (i.e more doods being put into play). Standstill is a great overall card, but I feel as though Counterbalance improves signicantly more matchups, specifically some typically bad matchups like Burn, Storm (Tendrils or Tide), etc.
I really don't think running both engines (Standstill and Counterbalance) in the same deck is necessary, unless the metagame is control heavy. In which case, both would be really good. Right now though, it seems overkill.
That's my take on that issue, though. I haven't played with Standstills in this deck since I merged it out of the U/W Landstill thread in 2008 (I think), so maybe it's time to revisit that plan again. I am running Factory again, so it wouldn't require as many changes to do so.
---
I want to repeat my point I made a long time ago that Temporal Mastery is really stupid for this deck. What does it do here, really? I'd much rather run Crucible than Explore, and unless I have a Jace on the board to tick a counter onto, it seems meh. If TM had a home, it would be in RUG or Merfolk or something like that, and even those decks aren't running it. It's simply unecessary, and it's going to lower overall consistency.
Regarding Banishing Stroke, the card is solid, but there are a few reasons I prefer O Ring. First of all, you can't go tossing in a bunch of Miracle cards and expect to maintain a strong Counterbalance curve (Entreat being an exception since it's 3cc). O Ring being 3cc may be slower in effect vs Stroke, but it improves the Counterbalance curve significantly. Secondly, overloading on Miracle's can backfire in games where you start with a few of them dead in hand and don't find a Brainstorm or resolve a Jace in time. I also like that O Ring deals with Emrakul, which has been seeing more play lately. Still though, Stroke is a solid card, and could replace O Ring for those who don't care about their 3cc spell count for Counterbalance (or those that don't run Counterbalance at all).
Regarding Clique, the 1/1 maindeck/sideboard split looks very promising. I may playtest that config at some point, since it gives the deck additional tools for dealing with Show and Tell decks, while being solid against the rest of the field.
I have been playing a U/W variant recently and through a lot of play testing found that counterbalance at least in 3x-4x range is way to much for the deck to handle. The deck is already playing 5+ miracle cards and four tops. Both of theses cards are terrible to find in multiples. Recently I have moved the counterbalances to the board as a 3x to make room for an extra spell pierce, a path to exile and a humility main deck.
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
4 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Glacial Fortress
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Counterbalance
Mulitple CBs allow you to not have to top if you have a fetch. Multiple tops let you take a card from the top then fetch away. More than one terminus is necessary once your opponent knows what you plan to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by GradStudentGuy
Why is having multiples of the way you gain a winning position bad?
Okay guys, I am having problems with a decision. It's about whether playing UW or UWb Terminator. Here's my UWb list for a starting point:
3 Underground Sea
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
So, black is mainboard for 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Liliana. In the sideboard I play more Discard, Extirpates and Virtue's Ruin. The Thoughtseizes proved incredibly strong, whereas Liliana wasn't too shabby either - but lacked some playing-consistency due to BB. Id be glad if any of you gave me a good input how to improve my UWb list. Firstly, I would want to stay in black, as it's been giving me an edge in the mirror. An T1 Thoughtseizes is a much stronger play than a T1 Top if you ask me. In addition to this I wouldnt like to go below 5 CC3 spells.
Ideas?
Thanks and Greetings
EDIT:My idea was: - 2 Underground Sea +1 Island -2 Liliana + 1 Thoughtseize making it 60 cards. Problem: only 3 CC3 cards, which is wayy to few. Maybe moving the 3rd TS to the side and putting a O-Ring in. To add up the CC3 count maybe a 1off E-Tutor would make the cut? But where? Is all these durdling around with black really worth it?
@GradStudentGuy
A Humility in main seems fun. I just might try that. Just as a preference using your list, I would probably take out some ponders for some Counterbalances.
@Philipp802
I'm not a fan of the UWb version, but I do see the merits of it. I would go towards 22 lands (your choice of configuration), then put in some Vindicates in place of Liliana (lightens splash color needs and provides flexible solutions).
I don't know how much you like Thoughtseize, but if you really want them T1, I think 2 copies won't seem to get you that start often.
I did the following:
-2 Underground Sea
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Scalding Tarn
+2 Island
+1 Plains
-2 Liliana
+2 Oblivion-Ring
+1 Enlightened Tutor
I do not want to cut the Thoughtseizes simply because I am already pretty geared against the SneakAttack-MU! In this MU Id like to have TS over SpellPierce 10/10 times. I play 2 more Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. Why O-Rings and not Vindicate? Same reasoning - the SneakAttack-MU. I can drop it via Show and Tell which owns a Emrakul and is still decent vs SneakAttack/Griselbrand. In addition to this reasons the little black-splash allows me to play a Surgical/Extirpate-Split and Nihil Spellbombs. In the Sideboard I run 1 more E-Tutor + Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Runed Halo and Pithing Needle.
Greetings
Philipp, sarapfish and yourself have already covered much of what I have to say about your list, but this is a more detailed reasoning behind some choices for you or others thinking about UWb to consider. (I wrote this out before either of you replied to your UWb list, but the submission never went through).
Personally I believe UWb not to be worth it at least until S&T shows up in the numbers everyone feared (no where near that yet, maybe your meta is though). I'd rather not destabilize the manabase or make it any more prone to non-basic hate than it has to be.
Seeing as you would prefer to stick with a black splash I would try these changes:
-2 Liliana
+1 Thoughtseize/IoK
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Fetch Land (with no colorless sources you can safely drop to 22)
+1 Oring or Clique (if you really want to keep 5 3ccs), otherwise another Snapcaster, Counterspell, or Elsepth
(you seem to have made similar changes already)
About the manabase in general. Losing Liliana allows you to tighten up your mana a lot. I say replace 1 sea with an Island, and if you add an Oring or Elspeth a second sea for an Island, otherwise replace the Scrubland for the Island. Cut 1 Fortress for a plains, or perhaps remove another fetch in place of any of those lands.
You're running thoughtseizes against a field of RUG and UR delver, they are quick and efficient. You can't afford 10 fetches, especially not with thoughtseizes. I'd consider even replacing all the MD Thoughtseizes with IoKs and moving TS to the board for this reason, but that's something you should test out first. Many times against UR and RUG I have stabilized between 1-4 life, those life dings you're taking will add up, keep that in mind in the early game and fetch as few times as possible.
Oh, I've never been a UWb user for this deck type, was just responding as if I were in his (Philipp802) shoes. In my UW list, I'm now testing Mishra's Factory as Hanni suggested.
Just to share, I'm currently considering:
1.) 3 Terminus + 1 Humility (instead of Terminus set)
2.) Gideon Jura (still wondering if this deck can be his home or a 5cc walker is bad)
Opening hands with more then one counterbalance and multiple miracle are just terrible most of the time. While the counterbalances effect is powerful if you don't have a top filtering your draws your going to get stuck with these in your hand. Furthermore, there is a greater abundance of two and three drops in the meta ( excluding rug ) making the combo not as powerful as it use to be .Top and fetches are already being used to filter for miracles. Having an active counter balance while trying to digging for miracles strains the mana base and quickly goes through our fetch lands. Counterbalance in my play experience is best left for the board where you can board out some miracle cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
The main point I am driving at is when you have a ton of cards that are dead if you draw duplicates you are not going to keep up with decks who don't have the same issue.
I think you're over exaggerating the opening hand a bit. I actually like to see a Terminus in my opener, because it means that I can have access to a Terminus with a single Brainstorm or midgame Jace. It's better than getting swarmed and not seeing a single Terminus. Between 4 Brainstorm 3 Jace, and 3 SCM to flashback any previously cast Brainstorm's, the deck has more than enough ways of liberating that Terminus you drew your the opener.Quote:
Opening hands with more then one counterbalance and multiple miracle are just terrible most of the time. While the counterbalances effect is powerful if you don't have a top filtering your draws your going to get stuck with these in your hand. Furthermore, there is a greater abundance of two and three drops in the meta ( excluding rug ) making the combo not as powerful as it use to be .Top and fetches are already being used to filter for miracles. Having an active counter balance while trying to digging for miracles strains the mana base and quickly goes through our fetch lands. Counterbalance in my play experience is best left for the board where you can board out some miracle cards.
The main point I am driving at is when you have a ton of cards that are dead if you draw duplicates you are not going to keep up with decks who don't have the same issue.
Drawing multiple Counterbalances isn't necessarily bad either. Alot of times, the first one is going to get countered or discard or whatever. Sometimes, you need to pitch something to FoW, and an extra Counterbalance is great for that. Either way, resolving a Counterbalance is great against nearly every single matchup. It's not about hardlocking an opponent, it's about incrimental card advantage. Counterbalance to this deck is what Standstill was to Landstill. Even if you miss a few blind flips with it early, the first card it counters is parity, and every card after that is +1 CA. In a slower control deck like this, you're going to get plenty of mileage out of that Counterbalance before the game is over.
The fact that Counterbalance improves otherwise horrible matchups like Burn, Spiral Tide, Aggro Loam, ANT, Sligh, Reanimator, so on and so forth, is gravy. There are few to no matchups that Counterbalance isn't at least somewhat useful in. Once you assemble a Top, there are alot of matchups that you totally dominate, like RUG Tempo. It's still a pretty good card against Maverick and Show and Tell, you just need to look at it from a different lens, i.e don't treat it as a lock, treat it as a card advantage engine.
Counterbalance has always been an incredible card for control decks, despite the majority of the community running it in aggro/control decks way back when (Bant w/ Counterbalance primarily). Just because some of the decks in the format run slightly higher cc's these days doesn't make it a bad card.
Also, there is consistency in redundancy, which is why running 4-of's of your strongest spells is a good idea, i.e Terminus and Counterbalance. The deck has plenty of ways of fixing it's hand; the card quality of this deck is one of the best in the format. I'm not worried about occasionally drawing multiples of cards I don't need multiples of.
I think the point is that there are multiples of bad-multiples, which is somewhat endemic to a highly-reactive deck, and especially so for one where there are many high-powered spells that are hard to "aim," like Terminus and Counterbalance, which are somewhat-to-very circumstantial - they don't always do what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Brainstorming, FoW pitching, and good card selection can play through this and give you a lot of really powerful spells which do do what you want, but you can also just die while holding lots of circumstantial blanks.
For having so much card selection, it can still feel like a very inconsistent deck.
Decks have been running 4 Counterbalance for ages. I don't see why there is an issue with it now, considering how powerful the card is. It might blank a few blind flips, it might be dead in multiples if you have already resolved one... but it's still a single spell that can and will counter multiple spells over the course of the game. You're also not taking into consideration that it frequently eats opposing countermagic vs Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, etc, or removal from GSZ into Qasali from Maverick, Nic Fit, etc. Against RUG Tempo especially, you really want to see multiples.
As far as Terminus goes, it being a blank in hand is no different than Wrath of God. Sure, Wrath of God is no longer a blank once you hit 2WW, but Terminus is no longer a blank once you cast Brainstorm or Jace, and it can be hardcast late game for 4WW if it comes to that. The fact that its Miracle cost costs as much mana as Swords to Plowshares, except it wipes the entire board clean, is an overpowered effect, simply put. Why would I not run a playset of such a powerful removal spell? Terminus has been more clutch for me than StP has.
Reactive or not, these spells are very general in their use. All decks play spells, and most decks have many 1cc and 2cc spells, so Counterbalance is rarely a dead spell. Most decks run creatures, whether it be aggro, combo, or control, so Terminus is rarely a dead spell. These cards are immensely powerful, and worth running in multiples. Simply put: you want to see them. In Terminus' case, you want to see multiples of them throughout the course of most games.
To make a statement that the deck is inconsistent has me dumbfounded. I'm not sure what the extent of your experience is with playing this deck, or this sort of deck, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment. The deck has always been very consistent for me, and the only inconsistencies I do run into are the same inconsistencies that any other control deck would run into, whether it be U/W, BUG, etc.
I've been playtesting with this archetype for years now, and I'm very satisfied with the shell of the deck. I've been running 4 Counterbalance in this deck for 4+ years now. Questioning to validity of running 4 at this point, to me, is silly. I could understand a suggestion to run 3 instead of 4, but to cut them from the maindeck entirely because they are "inconsistent"... seems absurd.
Terminus is a new addition, so there's more room for discussion there. With the playtesting I've done so far with it though, the card is bonkers. This deck has been close to Tier 1 forever now, and it's always been missing that "something." Terminus was the card this deck needed to break into Tier 1 quality, and I wouldn't run less than 3. I'm very happy with 4 right now; Terminus has won me a rediculous number of games so far. A 1cc removal spell that wipes the entire board is a very overpowered effect, the card advantage against aggro decks is massive, and the fact that it clears the board completely clean, so that I can drop a Jace, is fantastic. I run 4 so I can see them frequently. Again, there is consistency in redundancy.
Entreat also added greatly to this decks power level, further escalating its tier quality. Now, instead of games dragging on with an Elspeth like they sometimes would before, I just make a shitload of Angels and win next turn.
tl;dr I run 4 Counterbalance and 4 Terminus because they win me games. Alot of games.
Ive updated my list again:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
//It's a miracle
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
//Counterspells
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
//Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
//Library-Manipulation
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
//Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
@Counterbalance:
Counterbalance is important and strong. And 4 is surely fine. I play 3 + 1 Tutor for it which worked well for me. I can see you cutting it down to 3, but cutting it entirely? Then you should play a deck that's stronger on controlling the game by itself - BUG Control - but then UW might be the wrong shell for you.
To clarify:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
If I were running this archetype in a tournament tomorrow (which I was supposed to do but it was cancelled!) I would certainly be running 4 Terminus and would go with one of several versions I've played, depending on the tournament, running 4, 2, or 0 CB maindeck depending on the strategy I was going to play and what I expected to see.
That doesn't change the fact that it takes a tempo-investment to use opening hand miracles, top (especially the second), and counterbalance. I don't think they're bad, or that the strategy is bad, but there are a lot of maindeck spells which don't immediately impact the board or stack or which address one powerfully and not the other. You can play against combo and see StP, Termnius, Enterat, and Jace and just lose. I think that's worth thinking about in Game 1.
Thus, I go back and forth on running Ponders because hitting all your stuff with the right timing can be so powerful. I have also kept kicking around Chrome Mox, which I've seen in some (usually more miracle-heavy) lists. At many points it would be awful, but the tempo-injection on turn 1 and use of (for a while) dead cards in the opening draw could provide a jump ahead in controlling the board, while the card disadvantage can come back through Terminus/CB.
I understand your point, but that's a fundamental issue inherent with control. It's not something new or specific to this deck. All control decks run into that problem, where sometimes you draw all removal against creatureless decks, or all countermagic against a swarm of cheap efficient creatures.Quote:
That doesn't change the fact that it takes a tempo-investment to use opening hand miracles, top (especially the second), and counterbalance. I don't think they're bad, or that the strategy is bad, but there are a lot of maindeck spells which don't immediately impact the board or stack or which address one powerfully and not the other. You can play against combo and see StP, Termnius, Enterat, and Jace and just lose. I think that's worth thinking about in Game 1.
I also realize that this deck has a somewhat poor tempo gameplan, but again, that's fundamental of control decks. Between 1cc topdecked Terminus, StP, FoW, and even Counterspell (which becomes active as soon as turn 2 if you hit UU), you can answer early game threats. Terminus fixes alot of the early tempo problems too. If you rush out a turn 1 Top and 2 Counterbalance, but your opponent runs out a couple of dudes while you set that up, normally you have to dig out of a hole. With Terminus, a single topdecked Terminus clears the board for you, bringing you back from behind to a stable gamestate, and then CounterTop on a clean board puts you ahead.
I have not felt the need for the extra "tempo" myself, but I think I'd sooner run Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and/or Path to Exile (or Ghastly Demise with a black splash) before I'd run Chrome Mox.Quote:
Thus, I go back and forth on running Ponders because hitting all your stuff with the right timing can be so powerful. I have also kept kicking around Chrome Mox, which I've seen in some (usually more miracle-heavy) lists. At many points it would be awful, but the tempo-injection on turn 1 and use of (for a while) dead cards in the opening draw could provide a jump ahead in controlling the board, while the card disadvantage can come back through Terminus/CB.
I don't think Ponder is necessary. That doesn't mean I'm right, nor wrong, that's just the way I build and play U/W Control. It's not that much of a leap to cut CB/Top for Snare/Ponder, cut Entreat/Terminus/O Ring for SFM/Clique and turn the deck into Stoneblade. There's not much of a card difference, but it makes the decks play drastically different. Again, it comes down to this being the way I build and play U/W Control.
I'm not sure why some people are STILL questioning the power of Counterbalance.
- It helps some of our really bad matchups, like Storm and Burn. These matchups are traditionally bad for slow U/W control decks.
- It's the trump card in late game control match-ups. Re-useable counters will win those counter wars.
- There are ALWAYS targets for it. Even with things like Caverns of Souls (which would only see play in niche tribal decks that are terrible against the format ATM) and Vial (which doesn't see play anymore), there isn't such a thing as a deck with no non-creature targets that can actually play in Legacy (except maybe goblins).
- I'm ok with Goblins/Merfolk being a bad matchup since they don't see play due to a Batterskull smashing them out and Mavericks causing them issues.
- Standstill is terrible while Counterbalance can always come down and do something.
- It's a great match for all of the Miracle cards since both need SDT, making a CB Top deck with miracle cards a good match.
Just because CounterTop isn't the tier 1 deck it used to be doesn't make it bad. If anything, the recent miracle cards have given it a second wind.
Also, Hanni is right. CT was missing that "something" to firmly put it into Tier 1 again. A 1cmc Wrath that can be done on your opponents turn sounds like that missing something to me. Doesn't Terminus also help our (lol) Goblins and Merfolk matchups?
I played some Mirror-Matches this afternoon...and waarrgghhh. I do not know what your plan is but I played with UW Miracle and my UWb Miracle. UW vs UW is just dumb. Whoever lands the CB first and doesn't get blown out by Angels/Jace won. Thoughtseizes in the board did improve the MU slightly but not enough. I will test the following:
Mainboard:
+1 Tropical Island
Sideboard:
-1 Surgical Extraction ( unimportant)
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (unimportant)
-2 Disenchant
+2 Krosan Grip
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Engineered Explosives.
I did change the anti-GY-slots but that's unimportant. The important changes are the Grips for the Mirror-matches,which should work wonder - and honestly, who flips a blind CC3? What do you think? Is it worth the extra-nonbasic?
Greetings
I don't know how popular the deck is right now, or will become, but I'd think Elspeth would be good for the mirror. She assassinates opposing Jaces, and survives after a Terminus. The soldier tokens block SCM like a champ, too.
Elspeth seems arguably good, but what to cut? My maindeck is even so tight that I play 61 cards (mainly for the Trop).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Greetings
The green splash for SB krosan grips are also something I considered, not sure if the deck is played enough for it to be worth the effort though. If you decide to go this route, I'm pretty sure you need two green sources (most likely 2 trops), it sucks balls to be stuck with a krosan grip because your only green got wasted, however rare that situation might be.
Sounds fair. But if you take a look at my list above you will realise that I am already featuring a black-splash to have a better match against Combo-Decks - mainly SneakAttack. Squeezing a second Tropical in there will be a little tough won't it?