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Thx for the replies!
The snapcaster/LW additions are really interesting. I didn't even think of those.
Anyway since there aren't a lot of aggro or combo decks in my meta lately I'm definitely going to do some more testing/research with a similar list.
Deck feateured by Caleb again on Channelfireball:
4-4 vs RUG
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...let-rug-vs-gb/
Actually it was a more controllish RUG build, no Delvers.
Yea Next Level Blue, but I feel like Nic Fit is pretty favored in this match up versus both Delver and then higher curve varieties of RUG. I think NLB has better game than Delver RUG, due to having basics and Jace, but they don't put up that crazy of a clock and a Veteran Explorers' trigger pushes past most of the tempo strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Really I think this deck plays control better than most of the Blue control lists, outside it's ability to interact with Combo decks. I've been playing Maverick alot lately and have hit that "wall" where versus fair decks I feel totally in the game, versus Belcher, ANT, Show and Tell, etc, not having Force is a hard liability to overcome.
Actually it's Next Level ***** but I'm nit picking here :).Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Out of the recent suggestions for this deck I find a single Doran the most intriguing. It has applications by hitting three creatures in a tough archetype, taking 1 damage per swing from V. Clique, 2 per delver and 1 per snapcaster.
Here's my current build of Nic Fit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Bayou
4 [SOM] Forest
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
5 [BD] Swamp
// Creatures
3 [FNM] Eternal Witness
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [V11] Progenitus
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ON] Gigapede
// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JGC] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
Currently the only "flex" slots are Deranged Hermit (not sure if it's good enough to be a GSZ target/alternate NO target), the 2nd Thrun and Kitchen Finks. One of these cards might be better off as the Ooze or Spiritmonger (a GSZ'able 6/6 with regeneration for 5 is not bad). But besides those slots, the deck has been perfect. I don't play Grave Titan because Persecutor has been fine at doing virtually the same role, and there's no way to search for Grave Titan. I tried playing Living Wish as a 3-of for a while, but it was too slow.
Qweerios' build was pretty brilliant, but I made some changes: First, 2 Phyrexian Tower instead of 1. I realized I was almost always happy to see Phyrexian Tower. It's pretty amazing and enables plays like landing a turn 2 Progenitus or double Hymn and a Cabal Therapy on turn 2.
I know you guys might be skeptical of the lower curve, curving out at 4-5 mana (or 6 if you count GSZ'ing for Gigapede/Heritage Druid), but it's worked incredibly well, making hands without Explorer smoother, and making hands with it just plain explosive. The 3 Witnesses have been excellent and it's a perfect card for Veteran Explorer, as you can choose a target for E-Witness based on how much mana you have. Plus, hitting people with 2x Hymns is insane.
I'm now convinced that Abyssal Persecutor is one of the most underrated creatures in Legacy. He's been just fantastic in this deck, and flying is huge, especially when Cliques and Delvers are more common now than ever. Costing 4 mana is the main reason to use him over Grave Titan, though. I'm afraid Grave Titan might be a bit on the win-more side since he comes out so much later. Removing Persecutor has never been a problem. Like I said, a flying 6/6 that comes out on turn 2 or 3 even without Explorer is game-winning.
Gigapede is also awesome as a GSZ target. Shroud+resilience has been great. Gigapede, Thrun and Progenitus are the most resilient creatures in the game, so I run them all. Gigapede and and Thrun being immune to spot removal is extremely helpful, especially vs. Jace. Thrun's regeneration is randomly useful for surviving Deeds and whatever else.
The biggest change I made from Qweerios' list is adding a full 4 Natural Order, and it's been a great choice. I don't see any reason not to play a card that says "I win in two turns" in a deck that plays plenty of green creatures, just remember to grab a Dryad Arbor off a fetch in case you need some fodder for Natural Order (I frequently EOT grab Dryad Arbor then cast NO), or grab a Dryad Arbor in response to their Edict. Some people run 3 NO. That's a mistake. Resolving NO is the easiest way to win, so run 4. Disruption from Cabal Therapy + Hymn with Natural Order means the deck can race burn, combo, Elves, etc. Playing Natural Order often comes down to this: Force of Will? No? You lose. Adding more speed to a slow deck has worked wonders for me.
Hymn is amazing. I don't run white so I can comfortably run lots of BB and GG costs, such as Thrun, Persecutor, Hymn, NO, and Witness. Don't run less than 4 Hymn because its a card that says "Target player mulligans twice." It does a fantastic job of attacking the other player's resources and it just gets better with Therapy. If you're going to hit a resource, hit it hard.. Plus, fewer cards in hands + Legacy's low curve=they can get fewer benefits from Explorer. Hymn is also the saving grace for fast decks like burn and combo.
Finally, since Deed can't hit Planeswalkers, I run 4 Pulse and they've worked excellently.
Thoughts/criticisms?
@Greenpoe
I like the idea of incorporating Natural Order into the deck. It seems like a faster "combo finish" after stripping an opponents hand with Therapys and Hymns.
I'm not sure I'm on board with the 2nd Thrun and the additional Gigapede. These seem sort of superfluous when you have GSZ to fetch Thrun if you want it and NO -> Progenitus for finishers. I mean with 4 GSZ, 4 NO and a Thrun that's 9 midgame cards to put a Shroud guy on the table, under what circumstances are you looking for that number to be increased to 11?
I think Sensei's Divining Top is worth running at least as a 1-of, I'd probably run 2. Having some manipulation can really help find what you need, especially with many slots devoted to toolbox cards and disruption. I understand it getting the nod over Sylvan Library for it's superior interaction with Pernicious Deed.
@ Nic Fit discussion in general
I sort of like the idea of Avenger of Zendikar as an alt NO target in the GB build It can fill the Deranged Hermit role pretty well and isn't totally out of the realm of GSZ in the late game.
For the Sideboard vs. Delver it is either Dead Weight or Disfigure. Dead Weight is better when it can be used to permanently shrink other targets like Tarmogoyf. Disfigure is better when used to kill a Vendillion Clique / Snapcaster / Mindcensor / Mother of Runes.
Primeval Titan / Stronghold is very good. With Stronghold+Witness on Deed/Pulse/Swords to Plowshares you can control the lategame. A nice bonus is that Scavenging Ooze even enables you to destroy their recursion in G1 so you can beat the very late game without investing any slots. Wasteland is very bad if drawn though and I am not sure if it is worth it.
Jace/SFM is probably the hardest matchup, I agree with that. For the Artifact/Enchantment removal I just run Wickerbough Elder. I am of the opinion that creatures have to give value in this type of deck so if they Sword a creature they get 2-for-1-ed. Also Pridemage is only playable in GBw and in that deck I try to avoid 2-drops to become immune to Spell Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I also don't like Skeletal Scrying. I think Garruk, Primal Hunter will be more reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I play a 3rd Top over the Skeletal Scrying in my version of Caleb's current list. The deck has enough shuffle effects to where having an active top lets you land haymaker after haymaker against anything midrange or control, and there's always ways to shuffle away a duplicate Top if you draw one.
It really helps you dig out of the 'few lands in play, 5-6cmc bomb in hand' predicament that the deck often has and really helps find answers lategame when you do have the mana but nothing to do with it. For examples of these kind of games, see the video series posted on CFB this week. One thing to keep in mind is that, drawing naturally without Explorer ramp, it is going to take a million years of Legacy Time to get to six mana. Top at least gives you a way of getting to your land if you run into a stifle on Explorer or spell snare on the GSZ to get an Explorer.
Top, to me, feels to me like the fourth best card in the deck , behind Cabal Therapy (1st), Explorer (2nd), and GSZ (3rd).
Other thoughts:
- I can't get behind Primeval Titan vs. Grave Titan, but at the same time I am not too big on Grave Titan either. Yes, red/blue decks can't really usually deal with him, but I rarely actually need him to win. Once you get four or five power worth of utility creatures (Finks, Witness, Ooze) beating down and they have one or no cards left in hand, it's over. When you do need an army Deranged Hermit delivers.
That being said, I haven't cut a Grave Titan from Caleb's list, though, because of the huge numbers of concession-upon-resolution Grave Titan gets.
Primeval Titan isn't bad though. If you aren't going to play enough Tops in the deck it's better than Grave Titan since you at least with Volrath's Stronghold you are always drawing gas. I can't get behind the Wasteland though, the only thing you want a Wasteland to deal with really is a Riptide Lab and against that you just eat their graveyard with Ooze.
- Recurring Nightmare shouldn't be cut. It's a reusable mana-dump for card advantage in this deck, and all the deck really wants to do in the lategame is use its large amounts of mana in some fashion. It comes online usually after blue decks have expended their countermagic. Even without Rector you don't need more than one if you run enough Tops to find it in the super-late game after you've dragged out half the land from your deck. It's always the best last card in your hand.
- I've had better success vs. combo boarding in a large discard package (a third Hymn, some Thoughtseizes, third Liliana, a singleton Teeg) with three Extirpates. You get kinda hosed by S&T combo decks running Leyline of Sanctity (though keep in mind they cannot mull into it) and especially Belcher variants, but you at least have a clear gameplan against combo-deploy your discard spells, recur them as needed with Witness, Extirpate their business, and lock them out of drawing into a critical mass for the rest of the game with Liliana's +1.
My total SB looks like (maindeck very similar to Caleb's list)
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Innocent Blood
Innocent Blood is way worse vs. Bant/Maverick than running Damnation, but is insane vs. the blue/red tempo decks where you REALLY want a 1 cmc removal that you can cast early (read: play around Daze) to stop a fast Delver of Secrets/Goblin Guide or turn two Tarmogoyf (the latter being way less scary). Innocent Blood gets the nod over Ghastly Demise because it's very good vs. the Emrakul cheatyface decks.
Claim over Grip because it can be a weird and decent source of lifegain (claim your own Top) against burn decks (where you want it anyway to fight Vortex) and Batterskull is like the least scary clock in the world against this deck and there are a lot or ways maindeck to deal with it (Deed@5 into Therapy/Hymn, Wickerbough, edicts, Pulse, block with Deathtouch Zombies, etc, etc, etc.). Counterbalance, the only other reason to play Claim, is a complete joke vs. this deck.
I would rather run Scryb Ranger as a 1-of (GSZ target) in the SB than Disfigure/Dead Weight for the Delver MU. Protection from blue means it'll block their Delver, Snapcaster, and Clique all day. He can be useful vs. Jace as well since he won't get bounced. Flash means you can drop him in when they attack with the 1/1 Delver and kill it.
from Cairo, I'd say Hornet Queen is better than Avenger of Zendikar. 5 flying deathtouch creatures can swing the game in your favor at times when they're about to go lethal and Progenitus couldn't get race fast enough. The flying army is something neither Avenger nor Deranged Hermit have. Deranged Hermit hasn't been too great for me. I tried replacing the 2nd Thrun with Gaea's Revenge and she's been great, both as a NO target, GSZ target and even hardcast. Killing a full turn sooner than Progenitus has been very relevant. The pseudo-shroud is great, and uncounterable is always nice too. Just remember not to side out E-Witnesses when you're playing Natural Order.
The problem with Ranger vs. the delver decks is that it is far less consistent than versus the clique + jace decks. Against UR delver they have ~ 4 bolts, 4 chain lightnings, 3ish fire and ice, 4 grim lavamancers + 4 snapcasters to rebuy. Taking into account spell snare if we try to hardcast it, and daze or FOW for a 3 mana GSZ over a third of their deck answers our Ranger.
Edit-> I am not saying 'it dies to removal so don't run it', as that can be said for most creatures ever printed. What I am trying to say is that our trump card for the MU should not be trumped back by a third of their maindeck.
I think, green has some good cards vs Delver: Stingerfling Spider, Daybreak Ranger, Aerie Ouphies, Trophy Hunter, ...
I am currently testing a GBr build.
Here is the list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Non-Creatures:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Sarkhan the Mad
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Mountain
3 Forest
3 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
Just messed around a bit and came to question: Would red be better ?
With Lightning Bolt we got reach to get the last points of life, to kill creatures, to kill Jace (!).
Flametongue is very nice with Recurring Nightmare and overall vs aggro decks.
Terminate replaces Swords/Dismember/Go for the Throat.
And Sarkhan FITs the sacrifice theme very well. Sacc Explorer and getting two lands + 5/5 Dragon ? Nice.
Inferno Titan is nice but not necessary ... I am looking for some better cards to go with this build.
SB:
Pillar vs Combo
Ancient Grudge is soooo good vs Batterskull, Sword, etc. ...
I am looking forward to test Bloodbraid Elf a bit more but I'm guessing he isn't that good when cascading into Zenith or temporary bad cards.
Greets
I think a couple cards are really getting overlooked here. First is Cursed Scroll. It comes online pretty fast if you can get at least one Explorer activation, and none of the Delver or SFM decks can deal with it pre-board. Takes care of extra mana late in the game, and can also be used to off your own Explorer if you really need to.
Second is Dungrove Elder. Guy is seriously pretty nuts. He seems to come down between 4 and 6 power, and turns late-game Explorers into bombs.
I tried Primeval and Avenger, but just wasn't that thrilled. I ether never made it to 7/8 mana, or had the game locked down by that point anyway.
I also run 3 Tops, and don't think I would cut any. In a deck where you really want to see specific combinations of cards, it's invaluable to have good card selection.
Fjedsen, if you cut Grave Titan from your list you can have only single black spells. This would allow for the trimming of 1 or 2 swamps giving you a more robust manabase at the cost of swapping a titan or adding a different bomb.
Red as 3rd color compared to white: The only white card worth playing, MD and SB, is Swords to Plowshares but it is a very good one.
Not sure how Sarkhan would perform compared to Garruk PM but I doubt he would be much better. Flametongue Kavu is an inferior version of Skinrender (sad but true) and Terminate is an inferior Path to Exile so those cards are no reason to go into red.
So it comes down to Lightning Bolt vs. Swords to Plowshares and Sideboard choices. If they have Jace and know about the Bolts they will +2 it but the option is still very good. I would still prefer Swords to Plowshares though because of Jin Gitaxias, KotR and Tombstalker. For the Sideboard I think you forgot Red Blasts. I would love to have access to those, sniping Brainstorms, Delvers; Jin Gitaxias and Merfolk is great and getting Snapcasters and Jaces on the stack even better.
White also gives you access to hardcast Pridemage if you draw into it, also Teeg and Canonist in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I'll also chime in that red isn't really where we want to be. Some things like Urabrask can be decent, and it does allow for some good sideboard options, but I'd like blue (for ConSphinx, Jace, and maybe Gifts), or just the standard white as better 3rd colors. Red seems the weakest to me.
Also, I'm surprised that Primal Hunter is still the gold standard amongst everyone. Relentless just feels so much better for the deck -- he's a sac outlet + powerhouse with Vet (or god forbid Rector), and he can be used to remove threats when necessary, while also supplying a clock. He also makes Master of the Wild Hunt stupid good.
I guess you're right. Red isn't that good. I was messing around, and remembered this extented list from looooong ago:
2 Mountain
6 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Vampiric Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
Sideboard
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Withered Wretch
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
3 Engineered Plague
The creature base looks so synergistic with Recurring Nightmare, that I thought I could give it a chance.
I'm fine tunig the list though ;)
Clearly needs Veteran Explorer -- Solemn won't do the trick, I don't think. Otherwise, seems interesting anyway.
I'll be playing my Double Dragon version tomorrow (today?) at Jupiter. Changes include maindeck O-Ring in lieu of 1 Hymn to Tourach (shaky gut feeling about this, but Snare IS everywhere, and O-Ring -has- done work when it's been in the deck in the past), and 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Swords in the SB in place of 2 Swords and 1 Finks. We'll see how it goes. I'm optimistic about the Bloods and have come to the conclusion that 3 was too many Finks all along.
@Arian:
First of all try a Faith's Fetters as a Rector target! They swing the game around against Aggro. Getting a Delver and neutralizing their next Bolt can win games that no other card could.
But they also get problem cards like Elspeth, Jace TMS and Riptide Laboratory in the control matchup. They get protected stuff like Emrakul, Batterskull and Mother of Runes which is a nice bonus. If you search Fetters from your library they would have to react to the Rector trigger and most of the times they either don't know they have to do that or they just can't. And unless they have Removal for the Fetters which almost no one has they lock the permanents down on the battlefield so they can't get Batterskull back with Academy Ruins and they can't play another Jace. I am 100% sure that Fetters will improve the deck. You can easily cut a Deed for it, two are enough with Rector plus they have been disappointing for me recently, usually it is an overpriced Damnation that can die to Pridemage, Pithing Needle and Stifle.
I am not 100% sure but I feel like your deck might want 2-3 Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck because they make the life so much easier against most decks. With 13 cards with CMC 4 or higher (plus Mana sinks like Fierce Empath, Deed, Witness and GSZ) you are imo a bit too heavy on the high end of the curve. I'd say cut 2-3 of the more expensive cards for Swords.
I am unsure about this but I have recently cut Hymn altogether from my GBw and so far I don't miss them. I just play 2-3 Inquisition of Kozilek to supplement the Therapies. The advantages are that it lowers your curve, it improves your mana (you could replace Urborg with a Fetchland) and that it makes Spell Snare a dead card for them.
About the list on the previous page: Vampiric Tutor = banned.
@bowvamp // @ arianrhod
Note that list is from old extended.
@thread
The initial GBR list posted reminds me of surviveteran. I've also thought of FTK before and it certainly has merits over skinrender, such as having 4 power instead of 3, shooting for 4 dmg instead of 3 -1/-1 (which becomes more important if you are utilizing recurring nightmare) and demanding only one red as opposed to two black.
Interested to see what testing shows before deciding a red splash is worthless. Let's remember people were turning their noses up at Blue Zoo for weeks before it was finally embraced.
Red gives Burning Wish, which means you can wish for Damnation, a win-con like Call the Skybreaker, or answers to almost anything.
In other news, I've been testing a 2nd Dryad Arbor, mainly to get fetched by fetchlands for use with NO (even with the low green creature count, NO is still insane as an "oops I win" type card), but it's also useful to surprise block a Confidant, come out in response to Liliana's -2, or grab it to just chump block when they think there's no blockers. I've also been testing out Glissa, the Traitor as a 1-of GSZ target, just because first strike+death touch can make them really not want to attack, then they have to overextend, which makes Deed insane.
@Tao -- It's funny, because I was originally running Fetters and promptly forgot that it existed when I was sifting through my binder last night trying to find my O-Ring. Oops. I've also come to the conclusion that I need to speed the deck up a little. Jupiter didn't go the greatest today, with the exception of actually meeting and playing against someone else from the thread, running the GB Abyssal version. I'm sorry that I didn't get his Source name, but I'm sure he'll turn up somewhere. Knell did nothing for me, and I think that the meta has shifted enough at this point that it just isn't good anymore, as much as it pains me to say it, since I have won many games off of it. I've also been looking at Hymn with increasingly distrustful eyes, although I worry a lot about our combo matchup without it. It may be that we should adopt the stance the Rock thread is currently taking, by dropping Hymn for more 1cc discard -- that seems much better against Stoneblade, which is rapidly becoming a problem again after disappearing for a little while.
I'll submit a full report (and I took notes on sideboarding this time...mostly!) sometime tomorrow or Monday, after I've passed out and had a chance to detox.
One parting shot: I am just as firmly convinced as ever that Garruk Relentless is the planeswalker of choice for this deck. If you doubt me on this, I beg you to test it. I'll admit that he'll be less impressive in a straight G/B version w/o rector, but whether shooting Vets, Delvers, SFMs, Cliques, Hierarches, etc etc etc, or whether it's Bitterblossoming or tutoring up whatever creature you need at the moment, he's just freaking amazing in here.
I didn't mean to dismiss the idea. I just wanted to compare Red with White for the deck. Bolt plus Red Blasts plus maybe some other stuff might very well be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Watta
But anyway. FTK is straight up worse than Skinrender. 4/2 and 3/3 are similar P/T stats. The easier mana cost is on FTKs side but that is by far outweighed by Skinrender being better against big creatures. He dominates a 4/5 or 5/6 Goyf and also buys a lot of time against Tombstalker while FTK is doing nothing against them.
@Arianrhod
One of the reasons I stopped playing GWb Mav in favor of Nic Fit was to play Hymn. It is the most broken card black has to offer, and I do not say that lightly. Although, as a general guideline, I try to stay away from it as much as possible in 3-colored decks because it probably won't land on T2 with no alternate cost. Hymn is extremely efficient but loses its appeal when it puts a strain on your manabase. Also, Hymns are extremely synergetic with board sweepers, they force your opponent to overextend in the midgame rather than play around Deed.
On another note, I brought the deck to a couple of small events (20-30 ppl) and did fairly well. At my greatest dissapointment, I don't own any Lilianas yet but I am glad the deck has been performing well for me. I have also adopted the 4/2 split with Pulse/Deed for the following reasons:
-Jace > Nic Fit, playing against a deck landing a jace and packing enough counter/removal is akin to running into a wall.
-Deed has narrower application than Pulse, sweepers aren't great against every non-storm deck. Deeds are also deathly slower against decks that can answer them.
-Board sweepers are best kept in the sideboard.
As far as the Artifact destruction GSZ target dilemma goes, I have settled on Zealot for now and won't look back at Wickerbough. Having a silver bullet against artifacts, to me, is not about creating an opportunity for card advantage, it is about getting rid of Batterskull ASAP. My opponent is putting pressure on me with a T3 Bskull, I don't want to let him untap. If I am relying on Wickerbough to answer Bskull, I have to:
-get my skull battered for 2 turns, then;
-trump Bskull to be able to remove him, while I;
-hope my opponent doesn't play anything else to kill me while I take my sweet time.
The main difficulties I have been facing in the last weeks and that I'd like to improve on have been:
a) Jace, 1/1's can't pressure him and having your opponent brainstorm every turn is troubling to say the least;
b) Dark Confidant, when played on T2, his ability snowballs extremely fast, especially when he is preceded by a T1 Thoughtseize/Mom.
c) Geist of Saint Traft, backed by removal and counters, he can generally close the game in 3 swings. However, I can attribute some of my difficulty answering Geist to my lack of Lilianas.
d) Sword of Feast and Famine/Mirran Crusader, very difficult for strict G/B to deal with...
On an unrelated note, Consuming Vapors has been performing extremely well. I have been more satisfied with Vapors than Damnation for two excellent reasons:
1. It is 1 sided.
2. It is backbreaking against U/R Delver.dec, Tempo Thresh, Team America, and Zoo.
On the topic of adding a third color, I think red definitely has more to offer than white. I don't think StP, Vindicate, and Qasali Pridemage support a white splash on their own (StP being the only important addition). Red, however, offers Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Artifact Mutation, andDestructive Flow for instance. Cards definitely worth exploring. I probably wouldn't play Lightning Bolt > Terminate because the burn reach isn't all that useful for this deck and Bolts can't get rid of a Percy. Artifact Mutation sounds like a neat way to get rid of Batterskull and Swords of X and Y. Destructive Flow is also an interresting way to abuse a high basic land count.
Red also adds rolling earthquake, which could be a way to get rid of planeswalkers + swarms.
I think that comparing Hymn to something like Necropotence or Yawg Will is a little bit of an overestimation. The only time I could agree is when you land a turn 1 Hymn through Rituals or Moxen -- at that point, Hymn does have the potential to just straight up win games. Hymn on turn two or three is far less impressive, however, since blue decks have the option to Snare or Brainstorm in response, and everyone else has probably already done something. Hymn is one of the few ways we have to interact with what our opponents are doing with Explorer mana, however, which is definitely important -- at the same time, Hymn doesn't always get what you want, whereas targeted discard can sculpt their line of play very nicely to what you want it to be.
DFlow seems very counter to the intentions of the deck. I recognize, certainly, that most decks don't run enough basics, and it would indeed hurt them. But for those decks that do run basics, it seems poor to give them the very lands that Flow wouldn't kill. Also, if you're having tons of trouble with Jace (which the archetype as a whole does), then I would certainly play Bolt over Terminate, since Bolt lets you hit Jace. I guess it depends on what you're taking out for them, but I'd imagine that you should have plenty of answers for getting rid of your Percy.
Note that I will defend Rector and Sun Titan until I no longer play this deck. Swords/Vindicate/Pridemage aren't the only reasons to play white; indeed, I don't think they're the main reason to play white.
Of course, at the end of the day, it all comes down to your personal paradigm. This deck is very Nietzschean -- "there is no right or wrong way, only a way. This is mine, what's yours?" I personally love Rector and the broken things that it lets me do. Other people, such as yourself, prefer Percy for the rapid kills it can generate (I'm assuming, since it's a much faster list). Still other people like the flexibility of Birthing Pod. Etc, etc. I don't think arguing for a "best version" is where the thread should go. Instead, I think that it would be far more productive if everyone supported everyone else and helped to make everyone's personal lists the best their individual paradigms can be. These are my feelings; mileage may vary.
Dude you are my hero!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Nic Fit Top8ed the German 242 man "Win a Lotus" Legacy tournament. Lists are not out yet, hope they come soon.
Well, by that logic, why not compare it to Demonic Tutor, or even Black Lotus... its name does contain the word "black" after all. What I should have said was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
"Hymn to Tourach is the most broken legacy-playable card that the color black on the Magic: the Gathering color wheel has to offer."
About splashing a third color for this deck, I think I will try it at the next event I attend this week. Putting the difficulties I encountered in perspective, I think a light red splash for Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast would fix the Delver/Jace/Snap problem. Substituting a forest for a mountain and 2 Bayous for a Badland and a Taiga is such a minor change to the manabase, it looks harmless. Here is what I intend to play:
Creature (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate
Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
Land (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Damnation
Is Vithian Renegades not better than Viridian Shaman in the Red splash builds? I guess there are a few Enchantments that it can be nice to answer if your meta has the GBw Rector build or Enchantress, but one does have Pulse and Deed too.
Well, technically you should say that it's the most broken legacy-legal card, since playable has a different set of meanings within the context, and I'm pretty sure that Necropotence is strictly playable. But I'm not here to argue semantics =) That's my last word on the matter.Quote:
Well, by that logic, why not compare it to Demonic Tutor, or even Black Lotus... its name does contain the word "black" after all. What I should have said was:
"Hymn to Tourach is the most broken legacy-playable card that the color black on the Magic: the Gathering color wheel has to offer."
As per my statement RE that we should be making everyone's individual decks better rather than arguing:
-) I reiterate that I feel that Bolt is probably superior to Terminate. It answers Jace better main, when you don't have REBs/Pyros to work with. Also, I'm inclined to think that it's a better spot removal in general due to the prevalence of Spell Snare, and the fact that it opens up your spot removal to a second color of protection from:'s when it doesn't need to be. If you have to deal with an untransformed Delver equipped with a Feast/Famine, I think you're going to be a little unhappy with Terminate. I'll grant that it may not come up that often, but being able to have the extra damage to planeswalkers (not just Jace btw; Elspeth 1 can be a bitch to deal with, too), and dodging Snare are probably sufficient reasons to make the switch.
-) I approve of Pulse. That's a card that I haven't been running, that I'm looking at squeezing in. If Terminate becomes Bolt to deal with smaller early threats before their respective decks have a chance to get set up, I think this is the perfect number. Not having any 1cc spot seems risky.
-) I'm not a fan of cutting Recurring Nightmare at all, since it's the primary reason that this archetype can literally out control a control deck. It's another sac outlet for Percy, and being able to recycle Witnesses and Hermit is worthy of a 1-of include on its own. On the other hand, you do have Volrath's Stronghold, which serves a little of the same use. I'd run them alongside each other, personally -- that improves your late game without costing you your draw step, but also gives you a backup option which is more than capable of taking over a game on its own.
-) The 1-of Artifact Mutation in the board feels forced. It's your only artifact spot removal, it's Spell Snare-able, and it also doesn't hit enchantments -- people are fond of bringing in Leyline of the Void against us if they have it, and it can be important to kill that. Turning off your Cabal Therapy flashbacks can be brutal, especially for a version that wants to win off of Percy.
-) I don't know what your local meta is like, but I feel that you have a little too much graveyard hate for an average meta. This deck eats dredge alive without any help necessary, although reanimator is a problem. If reanimator is an issue (or even in general), then I would suggest the following:
2x Surgical
2x Extirpate
2x Pyroblast
2x R.E.B.
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Finks
1x Damnation
2x Krosan Grip
2x Beast Within
I feel that something like this gives you a lot of play against everything in the format, including answers in two colors to Iona. They'll almost certainly name black, if they can fight through surgicals and extripates, which, with REB/Pyros as backup, you should be fine forcing them through. I don't think you need so much hate -- just a touch should do it.
Without a Reanimator presence, I would cut the Pates and +1 Surgical, and then +1 whatever else you want.
-) Everything else seems solid. Regardless of our disagreements, best of luck running it!
I tested the red splash and experimented with sideboard nearly all day in preperation for a local tournament. I came to the following conclusions:
-Artifact Mutation is indeed too cute. Arianrhod was right about it being spell snare-able. It is an issue, and Krosan Grip is simply better.
-Pyroblast/REB are amazing. They solved all of my problems. Coupled with discard, 1CMC Counterspells/Vindicates are absolutely devastating against any blue-based deck. They also solved the issues I had with Delver, Jace, and Snapcaster. I upped the count to 6 in the sideboard.
The reason for all the GY hate is because I took CalebD's sideboard as a reference when I started playing the deck. I think that the general premise was that Nic Fit would trump any non-dredge/combo decks in the meta and that sideboard space should mostly be dedicated to those matchups. Reanimator is practically a Bye with Terminate, Therapy, Pyroblast, REB, Crypt, Spellbomb, Extraction, and Ooze. Dredge, however, can be difficult if you are solely relying on Ooze.
When playing Percy, Lightning Bolt isn't an option. I understand that it can't be Spell Snared, it can take out a Jace after a brainstorm and burn a T1 Delver/Mom, or burn a T2 Bob on the draw, but it cannot destroy Percy. The tricky part about playing around Percy's drawback is to have an overabundance of ways to remove him. If you have a good amount of outlets (say 12 for 3 Percy), siding out therapies/deeds becomes a headach. The more outlets, the better. Besides, Terminate does a fine job at removing Goyf, KotR, and Tombstalker.
Current Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Damnation
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
Which is better between Vapors and Damnation?
-They both answer Emrakul and Progenitus;
-Damnation is better against Elves and decks with Mom;
-Damnation is immediate;
-Vapors is 1 sided;
-Vapors gains you life against Tempo Thresh and Zoo.
My build is similar to yours, but I run Natural Order. I'm currently trying it with no Progenitus at all and Gaea's Revenge as the maindeck target instead, since she has a reasonable casting cost if you draw her or just GSZ for 8 instead of using NO. If you resolve NO, you're probably going to win anyway, and sometimes she is actually better than Prog, too. Having no dead cards has definitely helped, and sometimes I've even used Natural Order when I had Gaea's Revenge in hand. Using Gaea's Revenge is like Proggy in so many ways (can't be hit by Swords, Bolt, Dismember, etc.), but the haste can make NO feel like a burn spell. It can catch your opponent off guard for the instant-kill. Haste rocks.
To help support NO, I run 3 E-Witness, 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Ohran Viper, and 1 Glissa, the Traitor (along with Thrun+Dryad Arbor of course). Finks, Glissa and the Viper serve excellently as my GSZ toolbox, too, and I'm always happy to draw any one of them.
I'm surprised you put Kitchen Finks in the SB. Gaining life means the game goes on longer. 3 power is pretty decent for pinging away at them/blocking&killing or just double-block to stall. Plus, living through Perish/Wrath of God/Liliana's -2 is definitely useful.
I think you should consider Glissa the Traitor. You mentioned needing a GSZ target to fight Batterskull, but Glissa is great at that. Dying to bolt/StP is annoying, but she's absolutely fantastic at slowing the game down, which is what this deck wants to do. First strike and deathtouch is an insane combination since their creature dies before combat damage. One Glissa can hold back a couple Goyfs and KotR because they don't want to lose an army all to one creature. Glissa can be pretty nuts as a GSZ target.
Viper is kind of like a green Confidant. 3 toughness is great, deathtouch rocks, and the CA it gives you works wonders. I realized that since I use Maelstrom Pulse so often just to kill creatures, might as well just add deathtouch creatures.
Just tested Gaea's Revenge because you suggested it...and I must admit it's awesome!! Best finisher ever, what will they do about it? :)
I played the BG version tonight (2-2) and tried out a different finisher I haven't seen suggested:
Rampaging Baloths
Works quite well with Fetchlands and Explorers and can be searched out with Zenith. Trample can also be nice.
Just something worth trying out.
If I were to play a 7-drop that isn't Debtors' Knell (which is almost never actually a 7-drop), Revenge is what I would play, no question. I've considered things like Vish Kal and even Sheoldred in the past, but I've never brought myself to actually play a 7-drop creature when I have 3 6's already.
RE: Dredge. I'll grant that Dredge isn't a matchup that I've tested much (or at all). However, there are certain facts about dredge that I know from playing vs my roommate's vintage dredge: they don't like it when you kill your own creatures, at all, and they cannot win if Pernicious Deed is in play/if you have a creature in play larger than 3 toughness. G1 they will probably just explogasm all over the board unless you land a fast deed or a Moat, in which case you're probably fine. G2/3, I would assume that Surgicals on their Dread Returns and Ichorids should shut them completely down, along with the aforementioned goodies. But, I'll reiterate that I really just don't know. It isn't a matchup I worry about much, regardless.
My report from Jupiter:
For reference, my list:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
3x Academy Rector
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Sun Titan
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
1x Moat
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtors' Knell
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor
//SB
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Innocent Blood
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Memoricide
1x Gaddock Teeg
Round 1: James Rynciewiciez - whose last name I have mangled horribly.
I knew going in that this was going to be bad, but I was feeling on the okay side of bad. The last three Jupiter events, I'd seen him playing High Tide. Game 1 is miserable, but G2/3, High Tide is almost unloseable for me.
I therapy on t1, naming Brainstorm. He reveals Brainstorm, Dryad Arbor, Force, Clique, Daze, Tundra, Misty. Welp. That isn't High Tide at all.
I do a few things and he makes a Progenitus off a ripped NO, to compliment his Clique. I have Garruk and Rector in hand, and could land Moat at 1 life...and then die to the Clique. I take a chance on hitting a Therapy/Tower on top of my deck, shooting Clique with Garruk, and hoping to find a sac outlet for Rector to live. I didn't get there.
Out: 2x Garruk, 2x Hymn, Kokusho, Knell. In: Choke, 2x Innocent Blood, Teeg, 2x Memoricide
G2 is very uninteresting. He makes a turn 3 Progenitus, again off of a NO on top of his deck as opposed to in his hand, and I manage to Choke him before I die. Whoop di do.
Round 2: Mike Van Tosh with Zoo
Last time I played Mike, he was running a tempo deck. I'm ehh about that, but my mood improves considerably when he goes land, Nacatl, go. I love byes...I mean...zoo.
He makes a bazillion cats, and I can't find a Deed or a Rector to save my life. I start to get worried that I might lose my first ever game against zoo, but my luck has other things to say about it, as he fails to draw a burn spell or a land for his Steppe Lynxes for two turns. That gives me time to drop to 1, land a Sun Titan -> Scav Ooze, and then proceed to gain life off of the Ooze, then drain him for 5 with Kokusho. #Winning.
Out: 1 Hymn, Knell. In: 2 Finks
G2 is amazingly unremarkable. I land a Moat, then a Garruk, then proceed to play Survival post-ban. He dies to dragons very quickly. I found out after the game that he actually boarded out his Pridemages, and didn't bring in any Grips -- not seeing Deed or Moat g1 actually helped, amusingly enough.
Round 3: Carson Yeager with UW Stoneblade
I hadn't seen any of the old guard blue decks yet, so I figured that I was due. He drops a pair of fast Delvers and goes to down. I try to fight back, and get counter walled and swordsed into oblivion.
Out: Moat, 3 Hymn, Knell (see a pattern?). In: Choke, Swords, 2 Bloods, Chains
I don't know this at the time, since my Therapies were hiding, but I find out later that is opening hand is something like Land, Land, Delver, Swords, Swords, Swords; with a Jitte on top. You can probably guess where this goes. I do a few inconsequential things while he drops a Delver, which naturally flips. Then I drop Chains, and I go through the usual 5 minute process of explaining to blue mages that Brainstorm is now the worst card in their deck. He accepts this, then loots for a Ponder. Eventually Jitte happens, with every creature I have played by this point having been Swords'd. I have one last chance to stabilize, with a Deed...which gets met with the last two cards in his hand being Force-blue card. Rage.
Round 4: Andrew with the mothereffing mirror.
We chat for a while before the match, and he explains that two of his three rounds so far have been Reanimator. I commiserate, thinking of my own problems with that deck. It doesn't occur to me that it might be a mirror. Like, the concept never even entered my mind.
He leads with basic Swamp -> Top, go. My thoughts are Deadguy, so I accordingly name Dark Confidant with my first Therapy. He reveals Eternal Witness, Abyssal Percy, and 2 Veteran Explorers. Jigg is up, now. As I drop my Explorer, the realization that this is a mirror really sets in for both of us. We chat a lot throughout the match, and I know he recognized me from this thread, although I didn't think to ask for his Source name. I'm guessing he'll turn up at some point. He drops a Percy, which I Deed away. Then he drops another Percy, but I have Sun Titan -> Deed, and start going broken. I think I actually hit Nightmare this game naturally, too, but I don't remember that well.
Neither of us has a bloody clue of what we're doing with our sideboards. I do the following: Out: 3 Hymn, Qasali. In: 2 Bloods, 2 Leylines.
G2 is much more of a blowout. Garruk does some serious work here, as does Master of the Wild Hunt. He drops a Hornet Queen, which gets shot with Master and then the tokens get Deeded away. Garruk quickly takes the game over from there.
Round 5: Will with WUR Stoneblade
I don't even feel like going into detail on this one. I just got ripped wide open by this deck. I wasn't even really close at any point, and at this point, I had people clamoring at me to drive them home because I was the last one still in. I also didn't take sbing notes for this matchup.
At this point, I'm looking at taking out Hymn completely, in favor of more 1cc discard. I'm also moving one Finks maindeck, because I've wanted to do that for a long time, and just never had the space. I'm hoping to squeeze in something like 2x Pulse, 2x Swords. The various Delver/Stoneblade decks are just mandating some kind of spot removal maindeck now. Debtors' Knell is coming out again, and probably staying out this time. I remain content with most aspects of the deck, though...I just need to adjust it towards Stoneblade a bit. I'll be posting an updated list at some point in the next day or two with these changes in mind.
@Arianrhod
I am very curious as to why you would side out Hymn against NO Bant, UW Stoneblade, and Nic Fit. What was your reasoning behind these choices?
Aside from that, it seems to me like you had some pretty good matchups. Going 5 rounds without facing combo is unheard of around here.