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I think GP was not the best place to play Stoneblade. Lots of decks, ignoring Batterskull.
However, Cunning Wishes looks great. It's cool to have access to Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction or additional remouval(Path to Exile) game 1. Especially with Snapcaster, to use card twice. I would also add Pyroblast and Disenchant.
I don't know about Cunning Wish. It seems pretty slow on paper, and you sacrifice some SB slots. I played in Amsterdam as well with a red splash with the approximate list I posted some pages ago, dropping at 5-3, beating SplinterTwin 2-0, UB Merfok 2-0, Elves 2-0, Steel Stompy 2-1, Merfolk 2-1 and loosing to Manaless Dredge 1-2, UW Merfolk 1-2 and BUG 1-2. First big tournament for me though, so I think I did ok.
Sometimes I found it quite hard to actually have all the mana you need at times when you want to cast Snapcaster, Cliques and Jaces while having to play around Daze, getting wasted or just needing the mana to vial a Baneslayer in. So I don't know if its really effective to invest 4 mana for a Path to Exile from the board or something similar. Sure, if you really need that path, its good, but against Storm, it's probably too slow to get Flusterstorm. It's basically a Snapcaster for +1 mana without the body, but able to fetch hate in G1. Againt Reanimator or Dredge, you probably need the hate before you can cast Cunning Wish though.
Do you guys find that S:Fire & Ice is better than Jitte in the new meta with Snapcasters acting as chump blockers? It just seems like I rarely board in Jitte with the option of picking the Sword.
I think I'll never stop playing Jitte. It wins tons of games. And it kills opposing Jitte - very important for a deck with lots of X/1 creatuers.
Questions:
-How good is BladeControl against random.meta and random jank decks?
-What's the optimal number of Snappys? I've seen varying lists with 3 or 4 snappys.
- Would this deck be better served with 3/4 Jace like many lists have or having a split of 2 Jace and 1/2 Elspeth?
1) as already mentioned above: It depends on how good SFM->Batterskull is. In a field with Stifle and burn it isn't hot. I replaced white entitely with Red for bolts and lavamancers (sb blasts and tricks). Heavy Red makes SCM Even more awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
2) you have to realize that SCM is a dead draw unless you have 3 or more lands ... Having them early in hand is not desireable unless you want to random chumpblock.
3) in a deck with already 10 or more creatures and equip, do you want a Card that creates more creatures or one that clears the Way for them/denial opponents topdeck removal?
My two cents: I play 3 Jace and 1 Elspeth and Elspeth just wins games on her own at times, and a lot quicker than Jace at that. If the board state is even, they can both have a huge impact, and in a vacuum I'd pick Jace any day - however, Elspeth can win games, provide chump blockers, pump your dudes and add evasion (how awesome isn't a Germ token with flying?). She is also great in control matches, where it is pretty possible that a Jace will be PW-rule'd away before he can finish the game properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Which one is better is largely contextual, and it depends a lot on the match-up and the board state. I believe that one Elspeth should be somewhere in the 75.
I've been thinking...
Would Two Elspeths be to much do you think? I'm considering goign with 3 Jace TMS and 1 Elspeth with an extra Elspeth in the sideboard.
EDIT: WOOPS. Looks like this was just asked a couple posts back. I'll leave it here just to show that others are floating the idea. ;)
3 Jace, 1 Elspeth + 1 Elspeth sb sounds good to me also.
I prefer the fourth jace over one elspeth all day long. The impact both provide on the board isn't even comparable.
Jace is also easier to cast, as it doesn't force you to fetch double white.
I prefer a list with:
2 Jace
1 elspeth
3 snapcaster is enough, you don't need more of them.
4 spell snares (it counters really much atm)
also some spell pierces main deck to, like 2.
The founding that I've got with this decks that if it has like a choke or something on the opposite, you can't get away from it exept if you play repeal mainboard...
What do you guys think of this?
The question is will you still feel that way as rug grows in popularity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frid
If that's the question, then I would play wastelands and stifles mainboard.
Btw I didn't had a karakas or riptide laboratory @Gp Amsterdam with UW Blade.
And I played wastelands instead. They are better. this deck only needs 3 mana and lategame/midgame it needs 4 mana for a plainswalker.
So the wastelands were quite good during the GP, especially against decks like reanimator/combo.
So maybe that's another idea too?
To be honest that's not my bigger problem atm. It's just another trendy deck and NO rug never worried me too much, which should be significantly harder to beat than these new versions due to the 10/10.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
Jace is overpowered, elspeth isn't. I like overpowered cards. In any case I also play 4 red blasts in my sb, so in this aspect we are tied at least.
Against RUG, I usually go full on control as many times it's too hard to fight their Ancient Grudges. Boarding SFM back in game 3 isn't a bad idea though.
-4 Stoneforge
-1 Batterskull
-1 SoFI
-1 SoFF
+2 PtE
+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 Wrath of God
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-Three equipment cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Yeah, I like having the bigger toolbox game 1. Usually I'll side out the less relevant Sword in the following games. With a full set of Factories, a naturally drawn Sword
isn't too bad.
I've seen a lot of Bant Blade lists. What are your thoughts on those list? (Which typically run KotR, Nobles in addition to SCM and SFM)
Are the UW Blade lists better with the more stable manabase or are the Bant Blade lists better with more accel and the bigger beater (KotR)?
Against maverick is it good to remove mystic and equipments after SB? They run qasalis maybe manriki-gusari, and krosan's grips
I usually remove Blades and SFM against Maverick and add Wrath and Elspeth. Play like UW Landstill.
As for Bant Blade, looks like UW has a better match against UGR thx to more stable manabase. Waste your Tropical, Bolt your Hierarch, you know...
I'm considering a list with Moat either sideboard or mainboard (that or ghostly) to shore up aggro MUs.
If anyone has a good explanation why I should stop wasting my time testing these, I'd be delighted to hear them- otherwise, I'm going to start testing.
ghostly in the side board can be very strong if you have a heavy merfolk/goblins metagame. the cards is also hilarious against dredge, and i could imagine it's strong against one drop zoo but i'm not sure. tell me how your testing goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran
ghostly in the side board can be very strong if you have a heavy merfolk/goblins metagame. the cards is also hilarious against dredge, and i could imagine it's strong against one drop zoo but i'm not sure. tell me how your testing goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran
In my opinion wrath of god is strictly better in this kind of deck, as it serves different purposes: The cost is the same, and: It isn't a permanent, so it cleans the board right away and can't be gripped or whatever post sb, it has synergy with snapcaster mage, and it also kills the remaining flying creatures: Clique, Mindcensor and the like.
If you want to play moat you should try a different version of caw, for example the one by Mon, goblin chief:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=45997
(Obviously you have to switch the missteps for some counters and snares)
The cantrip and creature engine of that kind of deck lets you abuse from moat much more than typical stoneforge builds. You can try it out if you like it.
what do people think of the following decklist? It is basically the same as the U/W lists, but splashes black for Dark Confidant and a pair of vindicates (wanted more removal but didn't want it to only hit creatures. It seemed too narrow to be adding paths when we already have swords). Dark confidant is the main reason for the splash. He simply wins so many games on his own, often functioning as another threat, in addition to Stoneforge, that reads: "kill me or lose the game." He's good against mostly everything except extremely fast decks against which losing life is a major problem, and sometimes he is simply a blowout, especially with Jace. Finally, he is another equipment-carrier, which is nice. Also, I wanted to play 2 more ponders so as to have more snapcaster targets, b/c they are good with dark confidant, and also because its seems like the deck functions a whole lot better whenever you have a first turn cantrip. Also, not playing spellstutter sprite means that you can run mishra's factories, which are obviously better than mutavault. And finally, the deck doesn't run wasteland partially so that it can run less lands, and also simply because factory seems better a lot of the time, since you can use it to protect Jace and to equip things to.
4 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
4 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
3 jace, the mindsculptor
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
4 flooded strand
4 marsh flats
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains
1 island
4 mishra's factory
My only gripe with the 3-color versions is that they are weak to RUG Tempo decks. I question whether we gain a lot by going three colors at the expense of a weaker mana base.
Yeah, this is definitely a concern. Especially with more people playing stifle. However, this version also plays more cantrips than the UW one, which can help shore up shaky mana draws. And the extra draw from Dark Confidant, when he lives, can help with that as well. And as to what we gain, I think it is essentially this: 4 more cards (bob) that are capable of carrying the deck and nearly winning the game on their own, which most cards, while providing utility in the form of removal, counterspells, etc, cannot do.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Esperblade essentially what you are talking about? UWb Blade Control?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51710
Is there a separate page for esper-blade? Its only 6 non-land cards different... And functions very similarly.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...UWb-EsperbladeQuote:
Originally Posted by rchinnock
At this point the deck looks like ours but only with a splash of black and Bob.
I'm not really sold on the Esper versions. Bob and vindicate seem better for the control mirror but weaker against more disruptive decks. Having a weaker manabase and a soft target (Bob dies to Grims, Bolts, Dismember AND Spell Snare) seems a bad choice vs RUG Tempo.
UW Blade never really has Gas Problems, especially after the printing of Snapcaster. Bobs and Vindicates also mean less Flashbackable-Spells being played in the deck, making Snapcaster weaker. UW Blade has been the steadiest deck I've played in a long time. It has very few weak Matchups and is pretty much even across the board against most decks. The strength of Colourless lands like Mishra's and Riptide cannot be underestimated. I might even risk saying Factory + SOFF combo or Snapcaster + Riptide ->>> Black splash.
UWB will make the deck slightly better in the control mirror and will give it more options against combo. However, it weakens the overall durability of the deck and makes it easier to be picked apart by RUG Tempo, Old School Team America and Disruptive decks like Aggro Loam.
- I pretty much agree with this. The draw of going black for Bob is pretty quickly ruined when Lightning Bolt and Spell Snare are very commonly played. I don't think we can afford to go 3+ colors in this RUG Tempo environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I agree with some of this. However, vindicate as an answer to counterbalance and opposing Jaces shouldn't be under-estimated. Also, you get more SB options with black. You don't actually have less snapcaster targets in the esper version i wrote down, you have more. you don't have the two copies of counterspell, but you get two vindicates and two ponders. Also, you still have colorless lands - you have 4 factories. You don't even really need the black alot of the time, since the most you ever need is one and yodu only have 6 black cards. This means you aren't as likely to get mana screwed as often as you would if you were playing a more black-heavy version with hymns, thoughtsiezes, scullers, etc. Often what happens is you lead with a fetch, and then on the second turn after you play your second land, you crack the fetch and use it to get a scrubland or undergruond sea, cast your only black spell (bob), and then even if you get wasted you are fine because you have no more black spells. Finally, the thing about bob is that, even though he is killed easily, he offers redundancy as far as need-to-kill cards go. What I like to do personally is play either him or stoneforge more aggressively than you would if you only had one and really wanted it to come down and live, and then when they kill it, play your other guy. So, for ex, play stoneforge, get your batterskull, let him die, and then play bob. Then you have your batterskull for later and they used their removal spell that would have killed your bob. Or do the reverse. You do lose riptide in the list I put forward, but you could always play one, adding another land to the deck, which might be a good idea anyways to make you a little more resistant to land destruction.
Invisible Stalker
What are your thoughts on him?
- Can't be killed by removal which means we can always have a creature to equip.
- A IS with a sword that has Protection from green and chump KoTR for quite awhile.
- Since he's unblockable, he makes it easy to connect a sword with. Pretty nasty with a Sword of Fire and Ice.
- He's blue so he helps maintain our blue count.
Are you kidding, right?
I am not actually advocating doing this - but I would play squadron hawk any day before playing invisible stalker. Both, however, have a similar problem - they are simply too small and do not have enough of an impact on any part of the game except in conjunction with equipment, and even then they are too slow and weak.
Hey, there were some complaints that the creatures died a little too easily. He's weak as hell but he carries equipment amazingly well.Quote:
Originally Posted by kues
I haven't felt the need for any additional creatures. I think people need to remember that you have to play this deck like a control deck. With MM gone you can't tap out on turn 2 for sfm and expect her to live. I generally wait it out and build up my hand so I can protect her before dropping her. Between all the instants, snapcasters, jace, etc. I generally don't feel the need to cast sfm right away anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
note in regards to the fact that you in the UW versions you can't tap out on turn two aggressively for SFM (at least not very effectively): In the esper version you can, b/c you have another must-kill two-drop (bob) that you can play right after when SFM dies. or you can play bob first, and then, after he dies, play SFM with more security. This allows that version to play more like a fish deck, with more aggressive, must-kill creatures that you can play early and then hopefully ride to victory when one resolves. Just an idea (not everything of course), which might be useful when it comes to comparing the relative worth of the two builds.
On sunday I won a 40 man event with the following list:
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
7 [B] Island
// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [ARC] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [B] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
I still find UW versions with red splash for blasts in the sb strictly better, but I was a bit bored of playing the same decklist for the last three months and decided to give a shot to a personal straight UW version this time. You can find my report here (warning, it's in spanish):
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpB...hp?f=12&t=6333
Wrath of god is a house, and the best card by far in the sb. Every time I played it was an autowin. Spell pierce is clearly inferior to red blasts although a bit more versatile, but for a big event I would play red for sure. The rest is more or less standard: Graveyard hate and a bit of extra removal for the (not so) hard matchups: decks with a high density of creatures. And after boarding you just destroy them.
UWx Stoneforge is probably one of the best control decks I've played in legacy, with or without mental misstep in the format the deck keeps crushing. I love it.