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After reading Hollywood's tournament report and the rest of this thread, I am inclined to agree. A lot of times, racing is the answer. And many people also have the misconception that you need to use LED asap and go all in with it. Holding onto it or leaving it uncracked leads to situations that allow you to come back from games that LEDless would most likely not have.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
I agree with K1w1, the first card to come out in most matchups with me is breakthrough. Otherwise i guess i side out one of several cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
I have to agree. LED stays in my Deck more and more. At first I boarded them out for antihate and could not finish the game before I encountered the next hatecard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Played against GW Maverick last weekend and was to lazy to board anything after I won G1. I scooped against Turn 1 Cage. Choose to go (still didn't board anything...it was late and I was lazy and it was no tournament...just fun game with BBQ Sideevent :-P) and raped his hand including Cage and Ooze :-P
LED can just do awesome things in this deck an can almost always bring you to your Cabals before the hate hit the table on the go.
Most of the time I tend to do some -1 on a few cards to bring my answers in. Breakthrough is also a good card to board out if you don't need its speed and want a more grindy game 2. Never ever board Breakthrough out on Combo matchups though.
On another Topic: I am torn between 4 Study or 4 Imp (instead of 3 of one of them). Have 4 Breakthrough and 4 Lootings put I don't like the idea of cutting 1 Breakthrough Maindeck. Other option is 3 Study / 3 PImp for a 10th Rainbowland. And I cannot decide between Memory's Journey and Purify the Grave in my Sideboard :-/
I play pretty much the same deck - Dread Return + a Land, it's pretty damn consistent fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
me too!!! :)
What do you guys think of the Gravecrawler board strat that Adria has adopted? Also, in regards to that list, he only runs 1 DR, yet he runs 3 DR targets in the board. The odds of flipping both DR and the target is much tougher than lists running 2-3 DR. I suppose his targets aren't really made for "comboing" out, but rather utility creatures that come into play should beating down with Ichorids / zombies fail. It's more a convenience and plan B more than it is the focus, like with Flayer lists.
Personally, I have an odd gut feeling about passing the turn when the win is locked up. For that reason alone, I might be leaning towards a Flayer build. It's interesting to see the quad build do well though.
And while I'm on the discussion of lists, I remember a few people mentioning (Necro in particular) that Bloodghast would work well in a Flayer list. While Daniel Rude's 9th place list does not opt to run Flayer (FKZ instead), he adopts the ghast plan. Any thoughts on that list?
I think Gravecrawler is just worse than Nether Shadow most of the time, having activated a Bridge and having a land on board is a bit much to ask for sometimes.
I agree. I believe that the use of Gravecrawler for Dredge has been discussed ever since it was spoiled, and the consensus was that the requirements for it to be effective don't fit very well with the current configuration of the deck. It was also mentioned that Ashen Ghoul might be worth considering (note that its creature type is "Zombie", not "Ghoul" :tongue:) in a deck with Gravecrawler (as Putrid Imp is really the only Zombie we have other than the ones that come out of Bridge from Below), but that would really look like a different deck altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Come to think about it, that deck sounds like fun. :laugh:
May we request for a link for that list? Thanks in advance. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Kind Regards,
jares
Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Style
The one Dread Return and the numerous dread return targets,in the SB, does not make any sense to me either. That guy got first place in the tourney though. Either he got uber lucky or he knows something we don't.
Eh, as much as I push the "your average dredge player is an unskilled lucksack" argument, I don't think wasting SB space on Dredge Return targets you'll never use is as bad as the other atrocities we've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
To completely debunk the 'unskilled lucksack' argument for this particular case, the pilot of that list has placed many times in Europe with several variants of dredge over the years. I can find two instances in the past month where he piloted LED/Looting, both great finishes in decent-sized tournaments (53 and 131 players respectively).Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Given that it seems like this Adria person seems to know what he's doing, the question I would like to ask is this: is one Dread Return enough to support one DR target in the deck? I guess that the answer to that "yes", but I always assumed that it would be somewhat unsafe given that you're less likely to get the Dread Return when you need it. I would certainly like to look into the figures that would support/disprove that conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
I'd be interested to know if anyone might disagree, and why.
Cheers,
jares
Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Technically in some environments, yes, but that's sorta obvious (Basically metagames unprepared with no GY hate)
But as far as Real legacy environments go, unbeatable is too strong of a word to say, even game 1's are not 100% whether people have main deck scavenging ooze & other tricks or not, but game ones are definitely in our favor.
I can say that if you want to play a deck that forces your opponent to answer you or you'll blast them out of the water, this is one of those decks to push with.
You having played in the most recent Starcitygames tourney, you are asking the rest of us this question!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I think the deck is well positioned right now in the meta. When half of your opponents use surgical extraction as the go to hate card it makes cabal therapy better.
The only matchup I feel I could lose no matter what I do right is Reanimator and of course belcher. Not saying Reanimator is an auto loss, just if they get a good enough draw there is nothing we can do.
So all you need is a little luck. You know, avoid that kid packing the playset of Leylines and surgical extractions during a tourney. Also, hope your deck doesn't poop on itself.
The biggest reason I think dredge hasn't been a DTB lately is the difficultly of playing the deck.
It's really strong right now. The only dangerous hatecard around atm imo is a very early Ooze [in worst case with mana open] on turn 2. Other than that, with very tight plays, and a little bit of luck... Yeah it is really really strong. I wouldn't say unbeatable but above-average strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
From what I've seen of Adria's older lists, he's always favored more consistent dredge lists over FKZ / LED lists, which would explain why his 75 leans more towards a grindier quadlazer. The DR isn't meant to be a "focus", and definitely not something he cares to hit every game. See it as more of a "fallback" plan. The difference in having 1 instead of 0 DRs though adds that dynamism to the deck that quadlazer is lacking. I think he recognized this fact and has found a way to incorporate a singleton into his list without giving up too much consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I've always been a proponent of the notion that the only thing holding dredge back from being a true elite deck is itself. More often than not, the luck involved with your dredges will dictate your wins and losses. Yes, there are other factors: format, hate, playskill, etc, but not many other decks in the format can actually lose to itself. I think the idea of not having absolute control of your deck also drives top players who strive for consistency away from this archetype as well. When the deck works, it's pretty much unbeatable. When it doesn't, it's very much dead in the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I like how you put it, as I also went through a phase where I used only one Dread Return with no DR targets in the main deck, and this build also successfully had me perform as well as my other builds. The difference, though, is that I packed an extra DR in the SB for whenever I would insert a DR target, fearing that having only one DR in the deck would induce situations where I would have the DR target without having a DR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
This (playing only 1 DR amidst several possible DR targets in my 75-card list) is something that I honestly haven't tested/calculated too thoroughly, and I'll surely be looking into it.
Kind Regards,
jares
Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.
I agree. In fact, some would argue that Dread Return isn't there for the DR target at all! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
My concern, though, is how well/badly the deck is affected by the different "DR to DR-Target ratios" being used. This might just be nit-picking, though, and it might not even be worth bothering about; it's just a matter of curiosity for now, but I could be proven otherwise given that we're dealing with around 4-7 (or maybe higher?) cards in our 75-card builds.
Cheers,
jares
The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.
Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
This is how I've felt about Dredge for a while. I'm certain the core of Dredge is strong enough to topple any opponent with tight play. That's why I'm not a big fan of DR-targets. My list is 59/60 the same as his, fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
That's true. The Dredge Core by itself is pretty strong already. All the hate is irrelevant if your Opp does not draw into it even by mulliganing and you have god draws all day long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Of course there are lists with maximized chances on good hands. But even these lists may fail you in critical moments.
For me the Flayerlist works best at the moment. I get a lot better hands with it then with the Quodlaserlist which seems a bit weird by analyzing the lists in a mathmatical matter :-)
Recently a Manaless List Top3'ed which also states what Hollywood said. Lucky matchups (in this case no Leylines/Cages/perhaps Combo) may alter the outcome. The Manaless list is also not as good at mulliganing as the LEDlists are. In fact its pretty much unable to mulligan at all. All the pilot could do is play tight and prey for no Leylines/bad hand.
I encountert 3 zero turn Leylines lately in G3 while I was double-extracted G2 right off the bat and there was not much I could do against it despite PImp/Moeba/Thugh beatdown which was a bit to slow against Hive Mind (although I had some time because a could have paid at least two pacts with my Lands/LEDs :-P). And I had potential 1 Turnkill hands in both games (kept LED in cuz I didn't set him on Leylines).
Sometimes Dredge just dies to massive hate. Sometimes it dies to itself. And then there are those days where you play tight, draw good, dredge better and are unstoppable :-)
Could it be that this statement is true more often than we realize? In fact, with the variety of configurations available (LED/less, DR/less, DR-target/less, etc.) that have subtle differences and are all able to place well, I won't be surprised if this statement will actually able to explain why all these lists are doing well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Someone mentioned this a while back (in the old thread I think): "We should all choose the configuration that works for us and do our best to understand how to pilot our chosen build to victory" (or something like that).
Cheers,
jares
I think that if the pilot is good, and the deck doesnt crap all over itself, it will win. The reason is that the deck offers a variety of ways to attack other decks. It can shift roles in matchups like no other deck can- It can play combo v. aggro, aggro v. control, and even control v. combo. Name any other deck that can do that.
Also- the extra benefit: nearly nobody will test aganist dredge because it's a unenjoyable experience for 98% of people, so often they are left at a loss at how to play the matchup. These people think that if you jam in 4 graveyard hate cards in the side, you will win v. Dredge. This isn't true, to our benefit.
I've had many people misplay horribly because they didnt know what my cards did- ex: people not knowing how to deal with Bridges, Surgical Extraction on the wrong card, popping a crypt early.
I agree with all your statements (although the same could be said for any deck I think haha), but I don't feel like his list is suboptimal in any way. His first placement in March led to a few changes to his sideboard for the LCL tournament. Seems to me that this list was born from experience and testing. But then again, Dredge is an archetype that is completely open to interpretation. While we are here discussing the difference of +/- 5 cards and the dynamism added by DR, we forget that that the core of the deck is fundamentally the same. Regardless of the list, tight play and good draws/dredges will bring you out on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*
From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?
@KobyQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Totally down :) I'll see you at the shop sometime and we'll grind this one out.
As for the Maverick perspective, there are a few things that we're afraid of, but it's mostly Scavenging Ooze. Thalia can be rough if you back it with Wasteland, Teeg shuts down Breakthrough and Dread Return, and you can always GSZ for Dryad Arbor, then pop a Wasteland on it to nuke our bridges.
People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1. I personally have not tested against Maverick, but from what I've read, people are starting to opt a strategy that keeps in LEDs to maintain the chance of a more explosive start. Because Ooze is constrained by mana, you can actually just outrace it sometimes, especially if you have a Dread Return plan. The Maverick player will have to exile too many cards and won't be able to keep up.
That's how I've seen it. But anyone else please feel free to correct me or add ontop of this.
Game one, the biggest worries are a quick jitte or scavenging ooze. The best way to address that is to overwhelm as quick as possible with as many zombies as possible. Dread Returning a big troll doesn't usually work in this matchup because of MoM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Game Two, the enlightened tutor into crypt/wheel usually causes problems. Again, speed is the best way to address this, backuped with chains/claims.
Oh and wasteland can randomly put us out the game if we are not careful. At the same time I have seen wasteland as a time walk for me when I have multiple lands.
Also, Knight can be devastating if dropped turn 2 on the play.
LED lists + Flayer just poop on Maverick like there's no tomorrow. Just mulligan into some average-good hand, and the make a shit load of zombies before they can interact. They usually mulligan into some form of hate (mostly Enlightened Tutor), so they usually keep a slow hand + hate. If they draw godlike, bad for you, good for them.
The latest Maverick lists are strict GW (for that Thalia motherf***er), and dropping Stoneforge Mystic package and upping Umezawa's Jitte count. Play tight, and you won't struggle. Beware of Wasteland.
Firestorm is just a house against this deck, as well. Firestorm EOT hitting 1~2 creatures, followed by Breakthrough (or some kind of draw spell) is probably the best play you can make.
On another note: I've been proxying Griselbrand, and it's just awesome. Pretty much like Flayer, that bud just wins the game as soon as DR resolves. You just dredge what's left from your deck, and win. I've been in a funny situation, where I resolved Griselbrand, and my foe ate it with Swords to Plowshares... Drawing 7 cards for 0 life was something to remember.
Did you still use Tarnished Citadel with Griselbrand? I think I will switch to Undiscovered Paradise but I don't like getting it to my hand again and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
How did the lifeloss from Griselbrands ability affect your games? Were there moments you DR'ed him but could not pay for his draw effect? How often does this occure?
I remember some games against Burn, where I never struggle at winnig cuz I'm one turn faster in general. It seems to me that Griselbrand would demand to much in such situations although I am eager to use him once he becomes legal.
Edit: I played Firestorms in my Maindeck / Sideboard with the old Konkurs-List (LEDless) and they where just bonkers against Maverick and of course other creature decks too. I stopped using it since the LED lists because there seem to be not much synergy at all :-/ Never testet them in LED Dredge though. Flayer seemed just sufficient to me with his build in Firestorm.
Wouldn't the fact you just reanimated a 7/7 with flying and lifelink be enough against burn if you are a turn faster?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Haha his awesome ability just blinded me so I did oversee the obvious...you are right. Touché :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 264505
Edit: But there are still some games in which I reanimated Flayer at about 3 life and could win instantly this turn, while Griselbrand demands me to wait one more round :-/ Not that I care much about burn...but it was something that came to my mind while reading the 7 lifeloss. Its totally possible to win against Burn without a DR-Target at all with some good Cabals though.
Hey guys, I am going to play a small local tournament next weekend, but I don't have access to LED just yet, can you help me out here?
I am expecting Maverick, Elves, Burn, High Tide, Pox and maybe some sort of Tendrils.deck.
Due to Mavericks and Elves, I thought maybe main decked Firestorms would help.
15 Lands (3 Tarnished Citadel)
12 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ichorid
1 Memory Journey
The TTribes are there in the place of Firestorms, since they can help fighting grave-sweepers, and it's also quite better than Firestorm against non-creature combo.
I used to play 4 Ichorid MD, but I am afraid DR is better at racing Maverick... I even thought about playing 1 target MD.
Thanks in advance.
@Mojeh:
Firestorm maindecked is the best thing you can do to fight Maverick without LED.
Since you are fighting a lot of combo decks, you may want to fit a Sphinx of Lost Truths and Dread Return #3 in the Sideboard.
I think Sadistic Hypnotist is the target of choice here.Without a 3rd Return.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Actually, the best target would be Iona #2. Sadistic Hypnotist is too situational, and Iona is a turn 2 clock (backed up with Ichorids).