You have enough discard, so substitute a second needle for that thoughtseize.
Also, do not board out crucible. It is a cornerstone for your deck and enables many cards and strategies.
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You have enough discard, so substitute a second needle for that thoughtseize.
Also, do not board out crucible. It is a cornerstone for your deck and enables many cards and strategies.
I thought there were some matchups where Crucible Shenanigans were less useful, but then again if I am going to give Crucible a chance I should really give it a good chance.
Yeah. I can't comment on every deck (too awkward on a phone) but noticed oddities like not going the full LD vs countertop, and forgetting crucible give you your mishras and pit back. In the first case remember countertop have no means to recover his lands. In the later case the lands do service, vs merfolk for example, as blockers and for combat tricks.
In some recent testing, this deck is absolutely awesome against combo (that isn't turn 1 like belcher) & control, and enough of aggro strategies that it should be doing better, Engineered Plague eats the Tribal strategies, this deck should be owning right now!
Hey guys,
This is my report from a local Tournament that qualifies the Top 2 players to the National Legacy Championship here in Brazil.
My list is the traditional monoblack version with some tunning for the meta I was expecting:
Deck
MD
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
13 Swamp
2 Esnaring Bridge
2 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Sensei Diving Top
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
SB
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Trinesphere
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
Well, first some discussion about my card choices:
In my training sessions I faced difficulties basically with 2 decks (Affinity and Sneak n Show). Since Affinity is not
a common deck anymore and I was expecting a metagame with a lot of Sneak n'Show, plus the fact that I don't have Nether voids
I decided to board in 2 Esnaring Bridge, improving the G1 against this archetype and helping other matchups also.
The same analysis above plus the fact that 1 Iona (coming from Dredge) and big creatures (from Reanmiator) could cost me the match
made me board into the SB a singleton karakas. I was not expecting a lot of grave decks, so I decided to board out 4 Leyline of the Void
and remains with only 2 nihil spellbomb plus the 3 extirpate (that helps a lot with combo decks and burns). The other SB cards are the common choices:
Engineered plague --> Tribal decks and Ichorids (not common, but I have a lot to board out in G2/G3 against Dredge)
Ratchet Bomb --> Empty the Warrens / Zombie Tokens / Artifacts in general
Trinespehere --> Combo Decks / Dredge / Tribals
Pithing needle --> PlansWalkers / Vials / Wastelands (protect my factorys) / Stoneforge (prevents Batterskull from entering early)
Ok now the matchups:
Round 1 - ANT
Analysis: I think this is a good matchup 60/40. Pox can win G1 connecting a lot of early discards (mainly with Dark Rituals). G2/G3 is even better since Pox have a lot of hates.
G1: I kept a good hand with 1 Urborg 1 Factory 1 SDT 1 Smallpox 1 Hymm to Tourach 1 Innocent Blood 1 Sinkhole. He started with Gitaxian Probe and Ponder
and I figured out that he was playing ANT and thinked to myself (my only chance is to draw a dark ritual and connects a t1 hymm to tourach). I draw a land
and play the SDT. On T2 he did the combo for 14 goblins and pass. On my turn he cast Silence, I activate SDT before the draw and found 2 sinkholes and a Liliana. ****.
I play the urborg and pass. On T3 he attacked for 14 and pass. My last chance. Before my turn I activate SDT with the urborg, found nothing. On my turn I draw and activate again SDT.
And the miracle happened. I found Tabernacle on the last card from the top, activate SDT, Draw the Tabernacle and play it, passing the turn. From here the game was mine. he sacs all the
tokens and die a few turns later with factorys.
Out
-4 Sinkhole
-4 Innocent Blood
-2 Smallpox
In
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Extirpate
2 Trinesphere
3 Engineered Plague
G2: I kept a good hand with 1 IoK 2 swamp 1 Extirpate 1 Factory 1 Plague 1 Liliana. T1 he started with the perfect hand and started the combo with Dark Rituals, LEDd into ad nauseam finishing with Tendrils for exactly 20 damage.
G3: Easy matchup, I started with Dark Ritual into Hymm To tourach (discarding Burning Wish and Ritual) and Extirpate on Burning Wish (He had another in hand). On t3 I land a trinesphere and he scoops.
1-0
Round 2: RUG
Analysis: In my trainings I was 8-0 against RUG. For me its a good matchup. Smallpox and land denial are the MVPs on that match. Drop a Liliana after a few kills and LD is GG.
G1: I kept one of the best hands for Pox against RUG (my opinion): 1 Swamp 1 Wasteland 1 Dark Ritual 1 IOK 1 Smallpox 1 nether Spirit 1 Sinkhole.
He started and play tropical and Delver. ("oh he is playing RUG, nice =P").On my turn I risked a Dark Ritual into IOK. Found no Fow/Daze (only stifles). I removed 1 Stifle and played Smallpox (killing Delver, Tropical, discarding another Stifle), I discarded Nether Spirit (almost GG for him).
on T2 he plays a land and a mangose passing the turn. On T3 I play nether spirit (from grave), waste his land and play a cursed scroll. From here the game was totally mine. Nether spirit blocking mangose and eventually a goyf, and cursed scroll and factorys hitting for the victory.
I decided to keep my MD for G2, doing only the trick to shuffle the SB on the MD and removing 15 cards so he didn't know I was siding in 0 cards.
G2: Pretty much the same of G1. I controlled the board with innocent blood, waste and sinkhole. Liliana connected early (t4-t5 I guess) and the game was mine.
2-0
Round 3 - Goblins (splash B)
Analysis: Goblin is a weird matchup. Sometimes I win without difficulties (basically when I have a good hand with board control and spot discards). Sometimes I lose fast =P
I think this match is 45/55.
G1: Don't remember this first game. I started controlling the board but in the mid game I draw 2 sinkholes in sequence and he managed to connect a ring leader and 2 piledrivers, tried to block with factorys but got incinerated with gempalms. gg for me.
Out
-4 sinkhole
-1 Liliana
In
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing needle
G2: Preety easy. I land T1 Plague with ritual and a second one on t3 =P. He scooped.
G3: Preety much the same of G1 plus the fact that he surgical my factorys (after a wasteland) and my lilianas. I landed a Plague and a needle for vial. The game got stuck at this point, I trying to remain alive until the second plague and he trying to find a chieftain to nullify the plague.
He found the chieftan first and I died a few turns later with no plague on the top 5 cards =/
2-1
Round 4 - Dredge
Analysis: G1 is terrible since most of my discards, sac effects and LDs are useless. The only chance for me on G1 is try to slow down Dredge with IOK (Breakthorugh, Careful Study, LED) and try to find Tabernacle and Esnaring Bridge to control the board.
G2 and G3 I have a lot of cards to side out and the match turns on favor of Pox (like all other decks against Dredge).
G1: He started agressively hitting with ichorids and lefting zombies on the way. I draw a Esnaring Bridge that gave me a few turns to search for Tabernacle but at some point he reanimates the Flayer and 2 ichorids entering the game finished the job.
Now comes the crazy. I have 12 dead cards against ichorid and 4 more not good (Lilianas). I decided to keep the Sinkholes and removed lilianas.
Out
-4 innocent blood
-4 Hymm to tourach
-4 smallpox
-3 Liliana of the Veil
In (the entire side was boarded in)
+3 Extirpate (bridges, reanimates, ichorids, dredge pieces)
+2 Ratchet Bomb (zombies)
+2 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Pithing neelde (cephalid coliseum)
+1 karakas (Iona)
+3 Engineered Plague ( zombies or horror)
G2: I think in the end Magic is a lucky game, no matter how good you are and how many answers you have on your deck.
15 cards on the sideboard and I found none on my opening 7. mulligan to 6 and found only a Extirpate. Decided to keep counting on the chances that the others 14 cards was coming (since I have SDT to search for them).
The game was sad, I extirpate his bridge early but died to ichorids, ash gouls and narcoamoebas hitting me before my SDT find one of the 14 answers. =/
that game cost me top 8 later.
2-2
Round 5 - Esper DeathBlade
Analysis: This game is good for Pox. In my trainings i was 8-2, losing only when the Deathblade connected Jace and Batterskull with no answers.
G1: Preety easy. Iok, Sinkholes and Smallpox prevented him to reach the 4 land and Stoneforge didn't stayed on the board to activate Batterskull.
Cursed scroll shines on this match, since it kills all the creatures.
Out
-2 Snaring Bridge
In
+2 Pithing Needle (jace and Stoneforge)
G2: Difficulty match. I made some mistakes, dropping my only card in hand (1 smallpox) before activate cursed scroll to kill a shaman/stoneforge when he was on the board with 1 Confidant, 1 Stoneforge, 1 land. Next turn he draw a land and activate the shaman to reach 2 manas for stoneforge into batterskull.
the game turned on his favor, i went to 2 life but came back with 2 factorys preventing batterskull to attack and die, keeping him with 1 land, and activating every turn my cursed scroll. I managed to draw a innocent blood at some time, opening factorys to attack and killing him a few turns later with factorys and scroll.
3-2 9th place (Dredge went 4-1 and the 8th place was a 3-2 too, but with a better rating.If I had won the G2 against dredge I had made Top8)
Remarkable plays:
+Tabernacle at the first round
+Surviving at 2 life against Deathblade with a batterskull on the other side
Forgettable plays:
-Side in 15 cards against Dredge and can't find them with SDT.
-Some mistakes on the G2 against Deathblade that could costed me the game,
My thoughts: I was expecting a meta with a lot of Sneak n'Show but found out a very undeveloped meta (this is not good for Pox. Fortunatelly I didn't faced some of the random decks of the event).
Esnaring bridge on the MD din't help a lot with the other matchs (besides Dredge), but it didn't mess my gameplan so I will give it another try on the MD or maybe do the following
-1 innocent blood or nether spirit
-1 esnaring bridge
+2 infernal tutor
(in many games I died with one card in hand and SDT alone didn't found the right answer. Infernal Tutor here can fetch for Tabernacle, Cursed Scroll and Bridge and SB pieces)
Regarding the SB, the singleton Karakas was there for the same reason of the 2 esnaring bridge MD. I don't know if i keep it on the SB anymore (I'm trying to get 1 Chains of Mephistopheles)
That's it. Thanks guys. Comments are welcome.
I will remain with the monoblack version because its a good and solid deck against some of the top decks of the moment (RUG,Blade decks,Combos).
Thanks for the report!
I noticed that you boarded out sinkhole vs goblins, but kept the Wastelands???
Sinkholes was boarded out because they aren't effective against goblins (with relies on vials and 1-2 mana to cast creatures).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Regarding wastelands, I can't board out them without adding at least 2-3 other lands in place. Since my karakas on the SB does nothing against goblin I can't board out them because the chances of mana screw is huge. I know wasteland have the same problem of sinkhole in this matchup, especially because the goblin I faced didn't used Rishadan Post, but wastelands doesn't cost 2 black mana to destroy a land, plus the fact that together with urborg they act like a swamp (reducing the chances of mana screw) I decided to keep them. Also, if a crazy goblin boards in Price of Progress to finish a stucked table I can use wastelands on my own factorys and urborgs , getting rid of 2 non basic lands and 4 damage (not so good cause I lost 2 lands, but it's another way out).
yo man. we never got that list. how did oppression work out for you? seemed like a solid additionQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Thanks for the detailed report. It was interesting to see how you played those matches.
Thanks for the detailed report. I also found Affinity very difficult with an mono black deck. How do you side against them? With my Bg Loam Pox I found it much easier to beat Affinity (a resolved Deed is practically gg...)Quote:
Originally Posted by lukazlml
Dark Ritual into Infest does them in too unless they are lucky enough to get a Master out past the discard that early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Can chalice on 0 stop affinity? Or can he play land anyway? Follow up question: what is the casting cost once it is resolved?
the artifact lands text starts with ([seat of synod/tree of tales/ancient den/vault of whispers/great furnace/darksteel citadel] is not a spell). So no it won't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
The casting cost is whatever you pay, but as permanents, their cmc is 0 whether you paid 0,2, 4, etc.
Depending on the build of the affinity deck in quistion, you can use infest to clear the board and survive long enough to stabilize.
Bring in needles, beceuse you can shut down plating and tezzeret.
powder keg cracks his lands, but doesn't creck planeswalkers. Ratchet bomb cracks planeswalkers, but not lands.
Thanks! Affinity is rare but hard match-up.
Thats true, Affinity is a hard matchup. G1 is the worst game since you dont have directly answers to artifacts and must rely on early disrupts (beeter with dark ritual followed by IoK and Hymm. yes in that order since Affinity have a lot of spells that cost more than 3 mana and you need to garantee that hymm will not take them). If you disrupts them enough the battle tends to be a little harder, but still hard since a flying thopter with plating is almost game for him..unless you can stablished the board with sac effects (coming from liliana, innocent blood) and have an active cursed scroll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
G2 and G3 tends to be a lot better, since you can board in Ratchet (to get rid of lands, plating, thopter), needle (for plating, ravager), extirpate and even a trinesphere to stop affinitys costs.
Any deck that can dump a lot of creatures fast is a tough match up, Affinity because it's fast from the get go, & Goblins because they just keep coming, Oh look top deck a Ringleader, pull some more goblins, etc.
E. plague + darkblast can deal with most tribals. Sadly, it canīt deal with affinity...
Ratchet Bomb doesn't take out lands :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by lukazlml
So I recently went mono black again and I still got some questions about the SB: Infest over E.Plague? I do see the occasional tribal in my meta. Infest does clear the board, but E.Plague (backed up with Bridge and R-bomb etc) looks more solid to me.
if you expect tons of elves and goblins, and tribal in general, go with plagues. For other aggro match ups (gw for example), go with infest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
EDIT: ratchet bomb doesn't take lands, whereas powder keg will. But bomb is MUCH better than keg (planeswalkers and enchantments removal) and you are certainly not going to win against affinity based on land denial (the deck already runs a lot of other mana sources like mox, drums, etc), but despite it's sheer power, it's not so hard to disrupt (I played affinity for a very long time before switching to the rock)
Affinity need key cards to win. A board full of flying 0/2 is not doing much.
Not sure they have any answers at all to stuff you play; like needle.
An Affinity player doesn't need to run terrible answers to terrible cards run against them. Needle is unreliable, since it doesn't actually kill anything and if the Affinity player runs Arcbound Ravager, they can respond to a late Needle. Infest is the best card a Smallpox player can run against Affinity because it punishes the very Zerg-rush strategy that Affinity uses to beat Smallpox decks. Null Rod is technically the best card against Affinity, but Infest gets the nod since it's actually relevant against other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
It cost three to play though. Seems dangerously slow=(
It's not slow. You have discard and edict effects to make Infest pretty damaging. It makes the Affinity player think twice about going all-in on fast critters, and if they keep slower hands as a result, that favors you because it makes your plan A of just stripping their lands and creatures much easier.
When 3 mana blasts 3 creatures into the yard, it's totally worth it. Older builds of Pox that needed to deal with and keep creatures off the table would run 4 E. Plagues & 3-4 Infest. I used to run the 4 Plague + 4 Infest config before Liliana and Cursed Scroll. Had it not been my passion for LD and Wasteland, I'd even run 2 Mutiliate on top of that. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Pox's ultimate weakness is creatures. Cards in hand usually aren't threatening and since we pack too much discard, it's usually a moot point. We pack automated Land Destruction in 8 Pox effects, if you choose to run that many and up to 16 LD cards with Waste and Sinks.
Most Pox decks don't run much targeted removal spells. The permanents of Liliana and what not usually keep creatures off the field slowly.
Combo / Control should be easy. Both decks require cards (Hymn feeder) and land and neither use many creatures outside stormed EtW or Dredge.
The other weakness is Graveyard recurrsion decks since we bin so many on all sides. I run 5 creature hate and 5 GY hate for those are Pox's worst matchups me thinks.
@Omni @Chatto,
You guys experimented with the LoamPox build as I recall. What were your reasons for trying it and then moving back to the mono black strategy? I think you may have said it was too "durdely" or something.
I said it durdled too much. Or more specifically, I found myself spending more time Loaming and playing a Loamed land then actually accomplishing something beneficial. The Mono-Black approach with Lilliana + Cursed Scroll working in tandem does far more than a Loamed wasteland or a Loamed Cabal Pit etc. etc. Loam also made me curse the Extirpates and Tormod's Crypts in developed metas.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
By bringing in Loam, your lands and your Loam's become huge targets and since Loam decks are nearly half land and 2-3 Life from the Loams, your deck is now like 50% dependant on your yard.
My mono-B Liliana Sinkhole Pox can lose its yard, I'll look at you and say: "Congrats, you just rid yourself of a recurring 2/2. Let Liliana and Cursed Scroll pin you down instead..."
I used to run Sensei's Divining Top, then I took a Pithing Needle to the knee. To survive a longer game using LD/Discard hybrid Pox, strong permanents that do something nasty to the table and generate card advantage is necessary. Loam and Sensei's Top do not accomplish that, Liliana and cursed Scroll do. Sure they're tried and tested and 'old' by now but unfortuantely, I play with whatever brings me the best results. Play to win, if it's not broke, dont' fix it, and so I once again net-deck Reid Duke's old Pox and just tweak it a little here and there...
I was not satisfied with Bg LoamPox for a couple reasons:
First, the manabase is too fragile. I walked into Stifle one to many times, making me feeling even slower. I tried to compensade with Deathrite Shaman, but it never felt right. Also playing Smallpox sometimes meant awkward desicions: what land to sac etc. 'But what about LotL?' I hear you asking
Second, I almost never wanted to dredge. Even with a Top in play I almost always regretted dredging a wincon or much needed discard, LD or Lily. I also didn't feel comfortable being depended of my graveyard.
Third, I feel like having more grip on the game with MBP: it seems more focused. Mind you, I still play Top (giving me a sense of being able to be even more focused and even pro-active) I love how it can help me get those cards I really need.
Fourth, and this can really be just me, I found Nether Void really powerfull but I never got it really working in Bg LoamPox. To me this is partly because of the lousy manabase Bg has to offer.
So, the reasons presented above made me change back to MBP, but I still experiment with Bg LoamPox. I dropped LotL and only played Decay, Pulse, Grip and Deed, making those hard matchups for MBP easier. I also tried Deathrite Shaman. Still, I really didn't like the manabase :) For now I'm going to stick with MBP.
Long live the MBP. It has a solid and straightfoward game plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
My next try on MBP is:
-1 innocent blood (current running 4)
-1 esnaring bridge (was using 2 MD)
+2 Infernal Tutor
I'm saving $ for Nether Void. If Infernal tuto runs good i will do:
-1 Esnaring Bridge (Both going to SB)
+1 Nether Void
I'm very positive about Infernal Tutor. I remember a lot of matchs remaining with 1 card in hand and hoping to draw or SDT an answer to a threat. Also, running Infernal Tutor increases your threats counts by 1 (since you can fetch every card you want in hellbent mode)
The best targets for Infernal Tutor in my opinion will be the cards that I usually run only 1 or 2 in the MD: (excluding SB options here)
Tabernacle
Nether Void/Bridge
Cursed Scroll
Nether Spirit
Whenever I think of Loam Pox I think of all the graveyard hate, like RIP, Leyline, but especially Surgical Extraction as it is fairly common. I had Punishing Jund bring in Surgicals against me and that was scary enough with just a few non-basic lands, Spirit and a couple Ghasts in the yard and Crucible in play.
Still, if I were to try Loam Pox I may try to just go all the way with the land recursion and tricks and just hate against graveyard hate. Hopefully it wouldnt just be a worse version of Pox or AggroLoam. This would try to swarm early with man lands, draw, play and sac two lands a turn with Exploration. Tutor with Entomb and Crop Rotation. maybe sac and recurr urami a time or two for some demons. Just off the top of my head it might go something like this:
Exploration Loam Pox
1 Nether Spirit
3 Bloodghast
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
1 Worm Harvest
1 Syphon Life
1 Raven's Crime
2 Life from the Loam
2 Pox
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Mox. Diamond
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tomb of Urami
Side
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozeliek
1 Thoughtsieze
3 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
There, you just named it: graveyardhate and hating graveyard out. I don't want to be the one answering threats: I am the threat. I don't want to use cards to protect my graveyard, screw that! And the manabase you presented: you just gave a classic example why I don't like Bg. In this example you play two swamp and really depend on the non-basics. So much so, that you will have problems of keeping double black, therefore being more reliable on LotL. That means depending on your graveyard, again.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Using Crop Rotation: sac a land: green? or a non-basic, but which one? Perhaps Urborg and incidentally screwing yourself over for not having double black or even triple black for Pox?
I like your idea, but there is way too much 'what if' and 'what to do' going on in your example-list, at least to me that is :-)
While being all graveyard dependent, the point of Crop Rotation , Entomb and Mox Diamond would be to put more lands in the yard for nefarious Loam purposes, which you could play two or more a turn depending on how many Explorations you had out. The idea being that you would actually Want to dredge for Loam, like in Pox you should actually Want to Pox.
But two black is often a problem enough in the mono black build, which does make me wary of splashing green. I lost to OmniTell recently because in two of the three games I could never get a second black mana, or even a Ritual. I still have love -hate with Rituals too.
The increasing prominance of Deathrite Shaman is a problem too. You used to not have to worry about common meta maindeck graveyard hate to exile your Spirit, or use the sacced lands to mana ramp, defeating the loss from the LD or Pox effect. Makes it harder to break the Pox symmetry.
@Chatto. Blood Moon and Back to Basics becomes more of a problem as well whenever you run across those on occasion.
I think if I were getting spendy I would be tempted to go with The Abyss over Nether Void, but I have had trouble with killing as many creatures as get top-drawn. Will likely add Perish as was suggested, maybe even a singleton Dystopia. Nether Void, for that cost, I would hope could protect your Liliana's from Abrupt Decay.
I think you're playing the Dredge matchup wrong. I've had very favorable results with Pox, especially post-board but also preboard, and I've never had to board in so many cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by lukazlml
Hymn and Liliana are awful, but Innocent Blood still has value. Dredge is an aggro deck that kills you with creatures. You need to interact with their creatures. Blood takes out a Narc or zombie token to slow down the hordes, keeps them off a critical 3 creatures for Dread Return and acts as a sac outlet for YOU to sac your own Factory or Spirit to exile Bridges. You want to be aggressively Wastelanding and Innocent Blooding your own Mishra's Factories to kill bridges. Smallpox also works for this in a pinch.
You shouldn't be wasting Extirpate on Bridges, since you have other ways to exile those. Depending on what their graveyard looks like, first Extirpate target should be either a dredger (if that is the only one) or Ichorid. Ichorid should be an Extirpate priority since you have pretty much no other way to interact with that card and it will end up dealing you a lot of grindy damage and making lots of zombies (Ich killed you in both games). In G2/G3 focus on blowing up black sources to keep them off Ashen Ghouls since they probably boarded out the Dread Return combo package to go on the Ghoul plan. With 0 black mana and Ichorid Extirpated, they can barely produce any dudes at all and are seriously slowed down. Narcomoebas aren't that scary. You can win against Narcomoebas and their limited zombie tokens with your creature removal, blowing up your own Factories, Ratchets, etc. Without the recursion of Ichorid and Ghoul their army is a lot less scary!
Pithing Needle on Coliseum isn't that great. Just keep him off 2 lands and he'll never get to activate Coliseum. Needle on Phantasmagorian maybe if they're playing that build, but otherwise that is going to be completely dead a lot of the time.
1-of Karakas seems bad. Unlikely to see it. It's your only answer to Iona and answers absolutely nothing else. If they go with the Ghoul plan, it's dead. Smallpox is better... keeps them off lands to activate Coliseum and Ghoul, keeps them off 3 creatures for Dread Return.
Engineered Plague is iffy. I guess this answers Ichorid and Ghoul, but you're not going to see 2 to shut off zombie tokens. I would try to get value out of Innocent Bloods and Smallpoxes before trying to E. Plague zombies.
Trinisphere is tempting but hurts you more. They can just forget Dread Return, go DDD and just beat you down with Ichorids, Ghouls, Narcomoebas and tokens without casting any spells all game. Meanwhile, Trinisphere makes all your spells cost more and slows you down from interacting.
Dark Ritual is worse in this MU. Ritual is best for explosive turn 1/2 plays to blow up their hand/board and gain tempo. That simply does not work against dredge; you need to play a reactive game and shut them down. Ritual gets worse when you cut Hymn and Liliana anyway.
Maybe -4 Hymn -4 Liliana -2 Dark Ritual
+3 E. Plague + 2 Ratchet + 2 Nihil +3 Extirpate
Have you tried Drop of Honey at any point? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Dredge is easy, sort of. It got a reputation for sure, but this mainly comes from Meta s unprepared for it. Actually the deck is just a black weenie with a novel way of putting its creatures in play. This is the strength, but also the weakness; it cannot win if you throw a wrench in its machinery.
Black has lots of wrenches... Ensnaring bridge, mishras are good blockers, sacrifice effects in droves to get rid of bridge from below and TONS of graveyard hate.
As for loam the important question is: does it help me win? Being cool is regrettably not good enough reason to play a card: (
(remember Hecatomb?)
Hey guys...
It's been a while since I posted... I'm still in the process of playtesting pox here's the list I'm currently running
3 wasteland
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 bojuka bog
1 cabal pit (urborg tomb of yawgmoth/tomb of urami)
1 dakmor salvage
15 swamp (4 mishras factory)
23
4 liliana of the veil
2 tainted aether
1 no mercy
1 night of souls betrayal
2 sensei's divining top
2 phyrexian totem
1 phyrexian furnace
13
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 small pox
3 dark ritual
3 black mail
2 syphon life
24
3 pithing needle (walkers/sfm)
2 leyline of the void (gy/drs decks)
2 extirpate (combo/gy/permission)
2 relic of progenitus (gy)
1 massacre (white aggro)
1 perish (green aggro)
2 oppression (combo / aggro)
2 infest (aggro)
I still don't have mishras factories, apparantly I would really need to get because they would serve as my main beaters/win cons.
Also have you guys tried wretched banquet as removal?
I see what you mean. However, it's like the more you need to make it work, the harder it gets. So in order to make the manabase work you initially want to get the lands in your graveyard... Then you play LftL, dredge and repeat the process. Chances are you will dredge something significant away. In my testing I hardly ever dredged, and so I think it should only be used every now and then, not be THE main thing you are doing. Also Crop Rotation, while a good card and able to fix any mana-problem should it occur, isn't that good when you need your green and have so many 'special lands'. Mox Diamond I understand, but Entomb (if solely to put lands in your graveyard) will get you nowhere if you don't get LftL (but I understand that you will use it to get LftL and dredge it out of your graveyard)Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
I never have problems getting two black in MBP, I did had problems getting it in Bg Loam: so I understand your concerns :smile:
I used a minimum of six fetchland in order to fix any mana-problem that would occur. Even then I had the problem of not always get what I wanted (Stifle for instance), but also how would you fetch? took the route of Cropo Rotation, Entomb and LftL. It just did not feel right. And yes, the prominance of Shaman can break Pox, but you have enough ways to get rid of it
It does, and don't forget Price of Progress. It can kill you with all the non-basics we run. As for creature-heavy decks: The Abyss is a strong card, I never played myself. Maybe I should try it. Also, as suggested, you can play Damnation or (in Bg Loam) Pernicious Deed. One final note: Nether Void doesn't save your Lily, for it cannot be countered by spells or abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Ha Ha, no, I have only been using the mono black version, though I have thought about trying a Loam build just to see what all the fuss is about. Drop of Honey does seem like something to do if splashing green.Quote:
Originally Posted by caesar
A well built deck should survive having Liliana destroyed. If not then you are too reliant on one card to win your games.
Same with dredging really; it is not THE CARD that should win your games, but your DECK.