Not for long since M15 Frames come with a machine read text .. thank god!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
.. then it will be calm for a few weeks:tongue:
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Not for long since M15 Frames come with a machine read text .. thank god!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
.. then it will be calm for a few weeks:tongue:
Oh, they can do that. But they won't because it would violate the "spirit" of the Reserved List.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Not being sarcastic. That's quite literally the explanation given, except without the sarcastic quotes around the word spirit.
After reading about all the price drops as the result of rotation or bannings, it made me wonder, what would happen if the DCI one day bans dual lands from Legacy and Vintage? There is nothing in the reserved list language preventing them from doing so. And yet it would be even worse than pretty much and form of reprinting. It's not like they care for the formats, we would complain, but since when has our voices ever traveled far? As for the collectors, they'd still be just as collectable, see Alpha Chaos Orb at $300, but guarantee those "collecting" them will be devastated when they become worthless EDH only cards. I'd laugh.
This is exactly the attitude I've been referring to in this thread. All the have-nots would love to see the game destroyed just to stick it to people who have more than them. This is why I don't see a future in this game. Also you guys seriously need to learn the difference between collectors and speculators. If it wasn't for collectors MTG never would have made it and they still play an important part in greasing the wheels that host events for everyone. There is one class of people the average MTG player should be mad at and that's speculators. They drive up prices for everyone just to make a piss-ant insignificant profit for themselves on occasion and it benefits no one but them. Crashing the market might hurt a handful of speculators who are too stupid to know when the ship is sinking and jump out with only small losses, but it also would hurt most serious players (on losing value on collections and less events), collectors, and of course dealers.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Im glad to see scg has posted an article concerning the issue, good read
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html
are the fakes available in english only? Or are there already reports of fake non-english cards?
Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnytalls
This is the reason fake cards have not been a huge issue for so long and the only way to prevent any more issues going forward, unfortunately this is a line everyone seems not only willing but eager to cross. I think a lot of people are going to buy these fake cards and then be bitching and crying when the paper game contracts and the only place they have left to play is MTGO.Quote:
- Do not buy counterfeit cards deliberately for any reason. I do not care if you want them for a kitchen table game or what. If there's no money in it, fewer of these will show up to pollute our stores, and there's a chance that the counterfeiters will stop innovating and move on to something else.
Could you please STFU with the "have-nots crying" rhetoric? Actually, drop the please. Just STFU. Hearing people glorify the absurd prices and insult people who think piles of cardboard costing thousands is absurd is tiring as hell. "Oh you just lack character. I climbed to a mountain where I lived as a hermit and dug gold to be able to buy my Shardless deck."Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Sincerely, a "have".
I didn't read the thread but if I could find decent cards that would allow to play/make decks I would buy them. I think the reserve list and the card prices are ridiculous. I think selling the fakes as real is wrong
How else do you describe the post I quoted? Seriously I'm interested? Is that not exactly the mentality in play for some? Is that not the mentality that will potentially allow these counterfeits to permeate the scene?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Not even trolling, what's your input when people say things like...
It's a sad thing but I feel like I'm just calling a spade a spade. I'd love to be wrong and this not be a big deal but seriously I think it is. What's your input?Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Did anyone actually get any of the cards and confirm they are even a good counterfeit before everyone flames and insults? Counterfeiting has been around forever and isn't new
The thing I find interesting is the "Haves and have nots" comments been banned around. I have at lest one full set of what must be Grade 9 Revised Duals so I do not think myself a Have not. Still I think this situation offers real chance of offering real change. That is a good thing. No matter how you look at the moral issue.
This post on 4chan got me thinking:
Ebay trading is pretty much dead at this point since you could either get fakes or get screwed over by Ebay favoring buyers.Quote:
Can't you already scam people?
>hurf he sent me fakes
>take pictures of fakes
>keep real and send fakes back
I mean, these scams and chargeback things already exist and are possible. Ebay always favors the buyer in most cases too.
People claim that these fakes would ruin LGS, but wouldn't it be more safe to buy stuff from your LGS where you can actually examine the card?
We were discussing this situation at our Sunday night kitchen table magic session. We are of the conclusion that this is a godsend to LGS's. So many times we hear 'ewww I can go to place x online and get it for $1 cheaper'. Now people are going to be a little more willing to buy the $75 in person FOW vs the $60 online one if they know for a fact they are getting a real card, so if Local's are able to keep a lookout and its a trusty store this is a major step back towards helping LGS's recover market share from ebay & tcgplayer
Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.
yeah, you being on a legacy/eternal forum makes a whole lot of sense….Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
What good is going to come of this exactly? I mean I can see theoretical situations where that might happen so I get why people are saying that to a point but I don't think any future where this is a good thing is based in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
The problem is not so much the fakes or the scams, those have been around for a long time. The problem is the people who are saying they don't care about supporting the counterfeiters. There are a fair amount of people who would happily send $500 to counterfeiters and get mailed back bootleg playsets of every Legacy/Vintage staple. Where that demand exists you bet your ass someone is going to fill it. That's the main problem IMO. People are looking at whether to support the community that keeps the game running or support the counterfeiters and many have already vocalized they have chosen the counterfeiters. In the past people actively avoided fakes and that kept the market for them suppressed. Do you have any idea how hard it is to unload 500 playsets of fake duals to people who only want real cards? These printers literally have people beating down the door to get fake cards, it's really fucking shameful IMO but I guess that's just the world we live in now adays. The more people support counterfeiters the better the fakes get and the more the market is flooded with them. It's not a sustainable thing long term IMO, so anyone who's buying these cards on purpose, enjoy them and know you are supporting a system that is going to be responsible for ripping off countless players and collectors and take business away from the stores which host the events you play in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Are you reading what people are saying about this? Lots of people aren't going to buy anything from Ebay or LGS they WANT the fake shit. It's the LGS $75 Force of Will vs. the $60 Ebay FoW, vs. the $3 chinese FoW that can't be distinguished from the real card in a sleeve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Turner
Just read the World War M thing. Not sure what I feel right now.
I really want come good honest change to come of this. I want to see the prices fall, I want to see the people that play the market get a scare and I want to see the game flush. I want new people to play in my format and I want Wizards to get off their FUCKING ASSES and print some Legacy cards. I want to see my own collection be worth half its value but see the amount of people playing double. But what I do not want is for the game to die. So I will say I am conflicted. Because I see some good coming from this. But I can say I see the bad too.
I still say though, fuck the hoarders, lets all play a game.
I wasn't sure that zombies could ride on high horses until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
No one is glorifying high prices. Go ahead, find one post in here from someone who is making a genuine attempt at discussion that glorifies high prices. When you fail to, realise that it is, you know, possible to dislike stupidly high prices and call out instances of blatant idiocy such as folk wanting duals to be banned just to depress prices. A move that would cripple both Vintage and Legacy. But no, calling *that* guy an idiot is akin to insulting folk who dislike high prices. Riiight.
Counterfeits are bad -- arguing as such does not equate to believing that prices should stay as such. It is to ensure that cards remain a trustworthy, fungible commodity that can trade on a certain basis with currency -- you know, the backbone of any monetary circulation in society.
Let's put things into perspective. You believe that counterfeits potentially lead to a situation of good because they damage the game's integrity and potentially (read: potentially, not definitely) cause a rethink in reprint policies? Do you also support supplying alcohol to drink drivers in the hope that they potentially run each other over and thus achieve an isolated extrapolation of good?Quote:
So I will say I am conflicted. Because I see some good coming from this. But I can say I see the bad too.
I get it, you don't like high prices. It would certainly be nice to not have to cut our noses off to spite our faces, though.
If your willing to put them all in the one place, yes I can see the value in such an undertaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam
The thing is, the high prices are not a large barrier for me. I dislike them, but I am going to be getting two Tropical Islands tomorrow from my gaming store to put in my elves deck. Its not a small buy no, but I can do something like that once a month and not have to live off Ramen for the rest of the pay week. What I dislike most is the decreasing size of the Legacy Scene.
Now please, before you tell me it is bigger than ever in the States or in Germany or some shit, I do not live there. I live in Australia. Here the format is not flushing. Prices are pushing people out of the format and if the dollar drops again the Format will die. Because at that point a $120 us card will cost like 210 here. At that point its set and match. Game over. No way we can make it out of that one alive.
So yea, prices are a bitch, more so if you live in a place where the game is not massive. So to all of you in the US or the EU whom think this is all hell in a hand-basket, I have a very different view. Because I am one Mining Boom off not having my hobby any more.
How do you define "hoarder"? For me personally, all the players having near 40 duals/Fetches at home despite only playing 1-2 decks or owning multiple sets of a card for various decks (like FoW's), Qualify as "hoarders".
No. 1 argument to identify a hoarder: "i don't sell my cards (I didn't even have touched for years), in case I need them in the future and would only pay more to get them back if I sell those now..."
To Mr. dontbiteitholmes,
It would appear as though our parallel discourse has landed us at odds with regards to the nature of Magic: the Gathering. This is unfortunate, and I must take responsibility for my language and tone in crafting this impasse. It was not my intention to cast you as any adversary in this, and for that I apologize. I reflect now that the source of this discussion stems from the two of us looking upon the same object and perceiving two different things. Permit me to say, that through your eyes, Magic is a collectable card game. This is fine. As is that I can say, through my eyes I see a collectable card game. We must both recognize that these differing viewpoints are equally valid and correct.
My history to this game has always been as a game, to play and be played. Single cards cost money, some more than others, and this was all fine with me. Some cards were better than others, so why should their value to me and others not follow? But the inevitability was that they were all pieces of a whole, and that eventually a game would be played. Because if not then why bother with the whole system? Without a game at the end, these cards were no different than baseball cards, something that has never held interest in me.
Which of course is not to say that baseball cards are worthless, nor that those who do collect things like coins and dolls and lunchboxes aren't without reason in their doings. Of this group is how you appear to be identifying yourself, and again, this is fine. There is no game to be played with antique coins, and yet they have value. I cannot pretend to properly understand why, and must admit I find some of the standards a bit silly. And yet in writing this, I must reflect on the circumstances to what a collector must think as they watch person after person take highly valuable collector's items and subject them to irreversible wear and tear for no other reason that to play a children's game.
To avoid an otherwise dichotomous relationship, we must let our two differing views on this exist without belittling the others stake in the whole enterprise. It could come to pass that Magic goes the way of many other nameless CCGs it itself spawned, the cards themselves worth only their value to you, the collectors. Without a single game ever played again, a 9.5 Alpha Black Lotus will still incite some bids at auction. It has been shown that this could exist in many forms, through baseball cards and matchbox cars and any number of collectables. Likewise, a world could exist where no single card sells for more that $2.50, and yet games are plenty and thorough. Certainly games exist where the monetary value of the game pieces themselves hold no bearing upon the game itself, this could become no different.
Without otherwise holy intervention from Our Lord, Richard Garfield, Ph.D., hallowed by thy name, it is up to us, his children, to settle this dispute ourselves. To avoid an otherwise Pyrrhic victory for either party we need to find a way to abstain caustic statements and poor debate. I invite you to join me in this attempt.
So anyone who collects is a hoarder. I try to keep 4 of every card available for myself and cards I would use in more than 1 deck in sets of 8. it is called thinking ahead. Lets say that for the next year I know I am not going to play Blue, you are saying I should just sell my underground seas and then when I need them go and struggle to find them again at a reasonable price. i did that 10 years ago it cost me more then I sold at to buy back in, worst mistake of my life in concern to MTG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The hoarders are those who brag about having 100+ FOW or 20 of each dual etc. Responsible players only keep what they need and for legacy that is 4x of each staple.
Additionally, to those calling into question my loyalty to the game regarding my self-amused conjecture at debilitating bannings, my genuine views on the game are that it is stronger than Wizards, that even in the grim dark future of no more Legacy, people will still get together and play games. That in the end, that is what we all came here for. The strength of the core fundamentals of the game is what kept players interested, not the existence of the DCI sanctioning this game but not that game. My interest to eventually go to France for just one BoM is unaffected by whether it's sanctioned or not.
I think there is a big difference between what a person claims they will do and what they would actually do. Sure I would love to buy these for a cube but that is a far cry from me trying to use one and and even further from actually committing a felony by knowingly purchasing these. That is the big thing, is saving that money worth a possible 10-15 years in prison for my cube I have printed a few proxies but that is a far cry from buying "semi"-real proxies.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
I am more worried about those sellers who are outside the reach of US law, or even worse buyers using the bait and switch and claiming to have gotten a counterfeit and just switching cards out. Right now that is the bigger issue, someone ordering legit Jaces etc and then claiming they got a fake and sending a fake back to the seller.
Yeah that's pretty much correct. I think it'd be a little full of myself to say "my official position on the reserved list is..." like that holds any sway, but if it was my call it would go out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam
First there would be a 2 year grace period. You could mail your original duals/power/whatever into WotC or they would set up a booth at GPs and hand out new foil versions. The new reprint policy would be those cards on the reserved list would never be reprinted as foil and the only way to get them would be to trade in your old shit. After the 2 years are up WotC takes all the cards that aren't too beat that they collected and sticks them in random boosters, when those run out they start printing new versions that have a purple symbol ALA timeshifted cards. From then until the end of time whenever little Timmy opens a booster pack he might have a 1-in-1000 chance or whatever of cracking a ultra-rare throwback card (so these cards are impossible to "hoard" or markup via random distribution). I mean it's a dream obviously, but if we are living in a dream world where counterfeits fix the problems with the reserved list (hint they won't) I get to live in my fantasy as well.
It's not what people are claiming they will do. People on here and many elsewhere are already actively contacting people overseas trying to get these cards. Whether people are using these in the privacy of their home with friends or trying to pass them as real in trades/tournaments is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things compared to the fact they are giving money to people who fake cards, which causes them to work harder to churn out more and better fake cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Turner
People scamming on Ebay has always been a thing. You can literally open a package take the cards out and say the package was empty and Ebay will likely give you your money back. Luckily most people on Ebay are honest or they are just scared someone will drive to their house and rough them up if they scam since the MTG scene is pretty connected. I mean if a Magic player in Florida was to rip me off it's likely I know someone who knows someone who knows him and I'm going to have his address and contact info, so scamming Magic on Ebay is far from the perfect crime.
Thx for proving me right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Turner
Dood, I know peeps that hold on their Plateaus since they played Goblins in 2007 just for the same reasoning I mentioned and you confirmed. Keeping 4 of every playable card IS hoarding. Keeping 8 of the same chase cards just because of being lazy to move cards from one deck to another IS hoarding.
I just called WotC. The customer support office people did not know about this problem, but I am sure someone in WotC does. I encourage people to call 1 (800) 324-6496 (Consumer) Wotc to voice their displeasure. The earlier they are able to handle this, the better.
I told them that they need to take this seriously. They need teams of people policing ebay for example. ie they need to a better job protecting their brand.
It's not just up to the player base. You need lawyers and police enforcement to fix this problem. Also, I encouraged them to put something on their website advertising what they are going to do about this problem. Wotc has NOT POLICED EBAY. For many years now, I constantly see copyright infringement,when buying cards online. Even if the seller advertises it as a proxy, it is still copyright infringement. I report this item immediately to ebay. I encourage others to do the same.
just a prediction, but altered art cards are about to be banned in tournament play.
These Chinese counterfeiters need to be put in prison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
My 2 cents, for whatever its worth...
I dislike how speculators and other associated people are driving up the cost by hoardings tens of copies of stuff ranging from Genesis Wave to Wastelands.
However I do not consider holding onto a playset or two of staples for personal use to be hoarding. I somewhat regularly(every few months I suppose) switch decks in Legacy to stay competitive, so its in my best interests to have a playset of most duals at hand. Before I decided to get into buying Legacy staples for myself, I usually borrowed them from friends. However my life got more busy, so switching decks and then trying to find someone to borrow cards would not suffice.
I also make a good effort to try to lend out decks for Legacy and Modern events since I don't want my Remands or Fetchlands sitting in my room collecting dust.
I strongly disagree. To me, hoarding is when you see a guy with 30+ Force of Wills for no other reason than to show them off in his binder, not the guy that owns 4 Force of Wills that he uses in his High Tide deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You haven't told us whether your term 'hoarder' is a derogatory term in your eyes. So I'm supposed to sell my beta Savannahs when I'm not using them for your benefit (actually for the local dealers benefit more likely)? Then what? Take it in the ass buying them back at double what I sold them for even if the price doesn't move? GFYS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I don't see much value in establishing a threshold for hoarding but it is not having a playset of legacy staples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It doesn't require a Genius to figure out that there are many more Legacy players worldwide than full Sets of duals. It's impossible that everyone gets their full set without creating a price Helix and increasing prices over time.
Blame everybody else is too easy.
Hording isn't about quantity, it's about use, or lack of. If you have 4x of every dual and fetch, and are bringing a different build to every tournament and lending out cards you aren't using to friends and teammates to shore up their decks, then that's all fine. I know a few guys like that, their collections are like miniature store inventories, but they're constantly letting people use their stuff for tournaments. If it's being made use of, regardless of quantity, then it isn't really hording.
I can get behind that for reasoning, but aside from very few exception, this is more a dream than Reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
This is an idea I can honestly get behind, because it moves towards still having the pimpness, whilst also allowing for a gradual uptick in Legacy. Those who have hoarded will still have the incredible value of having the 'original', whilst those who want to play can either:Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
1) Trade for the foil versions, which would still be somewhat expensive; or
2) Trade for the 'legendary' version, which would be much more common.
Why do the numbers have to equal out? What's a legacy player without legacy cards? Nobody has to play DCI events if you have an insatiable need to cast Force of Will or play an Underground Sea just print some out and play with your similarly fiending buddies. Nothing will ever stop you from doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This may be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Having 4x every Legacy staple does not make you part of the problem. It's the people sitting on a bunch of cards they never intend to use again treating them like they are Microsoft stocks or the people who buy 50x of the same card and drive up the price $5 just to make a $3 profit on each card after selling fees and shipping. I don't think I've been to an SCG in the past 3 years where I drove with someone and didn't loan out at least 10 cards and most people are the same. Back in the day that's what people did to get their friends into Legacy (before it was popular). Selling out and buying in is an idiot's game and I seriously doubt you actually do that unless you financially need to sell cards to buy new ones Lemnear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Just stop. This kind of attitude is disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
I've done business with the company producing the forgeries. Not too long ago I sourced a container load of playing cards (that's 468,000 54-card decks) for a company wanting promotional materials. Custom printed CMYK backs and faces in custom printed tuck boxes cello-wrapped for $0.094/deck delivered to the nearest port. Yes, the decimal point is in the right place. That's razor thin margins that could split a hair. They work long hours, most live in dormitories, and many of them are only children who have rapidly aging parents they will have to care for because there's no social security, medicare, or other such equivalents in China. You try to tell poor, under educated migrant workers they can't make a little extra money putting ink to cardboard and selling it to foreigners for over 100 times what they can normally sell their products for at the same cost to themselves.
It doesn't make what they're doing right. But valuing colorful paper over human lives is reprehensible and certainly a greater crime.
It's very unlikely the people working at this printing company have any real concept of what they are doing. It's the people placing these orders who should be punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplesunflower
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes