Culling the weak enables you to play turn 2 6 drops around daze, which I saw him do a number of times throughout the day yesterday and during the trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
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Culling the weak enables you to play turn 2 6 drops around daze, which I saw him do a number of times throughout the day yesterday and during the trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Thanks for your thoughts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Deathrite is sometimes in and out, i played with 1 MD and 1 SB successfully, but it was a time i also played a pair of deeds. Meanwhile the meta is more than good enough to justify 3 (or 4) deeds, so i cutted DS (but i know, that a DS-Effect help with all the Treasure Cruise Decks, so Ooze is more important than ever). In the past Nic Fit easily outgrind some decks and win most games with all the late game bombs, now with the Delve-Draw-Search-Spells, blue Decks can recover easily (especially from discard-disruption)... that was the reason i thought that repeatable Removal (Punishing Fire) is the way to go, if you will outgrind your opponent. Besides TNN most Legacy Creatures easily die to Punishing Fire (Delver, Swiftspear, Pyromancer, Deathrite, Stoneforge, new White-Hatepriest etc). In this case, it doesn't matter if Treasure Cruise draws 3 more cards, because even a drawn Playset Lightning Bolts can't kill you if you managed to keep the Creatures in check (and also gain some life with your own EtB Creatures/hungry Ooze).
1) Yeah maybe you are right, but Titan + Kessig + X (Groove or more Ramp) won me ton of Games with Punishing Fit, even Kessig alone worked good for me. I like the Idea of an Crop Rotation build with Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Maze and the new Titania, but maybe it isn't made for a Nic Fit deck.
2) Right, but i don't know which lands can be cut (maybe -1 Tower +1 Badlands/Fetch).
3) and 4) Yeah maybe a lower curve is a good idea, not every UR Delver Deck uses Spell Pierce, so Batterskull can be a nice tech! I hope we see sometimes a Creature like Wren's Run Packmaster for Elves, Tutorable, and able to take a Game over fast enough and relative Removal proof.
---------
Titania / Commander 2014:
Included her in a Scapeshift Shell and liked her the few test games i made. Returning a land is good in Scapeshift, because a) you need many lands and b) Scapeshifts Manabase is weak to Wasteland etc.
Sadly most Nic Fit Shells doesn't play enough Fetchlands because we need all the Basics thanks to Explorer, so a "land shell" with Crop Rotation etc. shoud clearly a better way to abuse Titanias Ability.
Titania is more a "Six Drop" because you can't jam her on the table and wait (unless you face decks with only Decay-Removal stuff, like BUG Delver). You need her and a Fetch to profit (which means enemy Deathrites are also not an issue), but with a single Activation you get a 2 for 1 and 10 Power for 5 Mana. As i said, Nic Fit tends to grind Games out, but sometimes we all wish for more fast ways (Titans etc.) to win a Game in a few blows (like the real power from Miracle: Entreat the Angels...). It is easy enough to play a controled game with a Nic Fit shell, but sometimes it isn't easy to kill your opponent fast enough (especially with 3 Games in 50mins).
Conclusion: Titania maybe isn't good enough, but it is the right design direction for Nic Fit to gain some more "raw" power.
What do people think of Volcanic Fallout? UR Delver and Elves seem to be running fairly rampant at the moment, this cleans up everything except swiftspear pretty easily and can't be dazed/forced. I'm going to try two out tonight in a Punishing Fit build. I also want to throw a Nicol Bolas in the deck, because why not? I'm not sure on the best way to fit blue mana in though.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Put an Tropical Island or an Underground Sea instead of one of the duals? Or an island instead of a basic? Or cut a fetch?
Eh ... Fallout, like Toxic Deluge, is generally too slow against Elves! Also, Ive rarely had trouble against low to the ground aggro strategies in the past, but I have to say Delver is the main problem, simply because it goes over most of our creatures and trades favorably in terms of tempo if removed. Id consider a singleton Scryb Ranger to block it indefinitely, forcing them to overextend into Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Deed will handle everything Fallout does, while being applicable against many more decks at the expense of a few more mana.
Alright guys, so for a post-c14 Nic Fit Scapeshift build, this is where I'm at:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
2 Dualcaster Mage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Badland
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ruination
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Dreadbore
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Massacre
Thoughts?
Went 2-1-1 yesterday at my local, last chance for Legacy before the GP. Made a couple SB changes, adding Golgari Charm being the most notable.
I didn't face a single Brainstorm in 4 rounds, haha. Drew with Enchantress (naturally), beat Burn (Thragtusk off the top is good against them), lost to D&T, beat Elves.
One thing I'm trying to figure out is when we should be boarding out VetEx, if ever. I lost to D&T in game 2 because he hardcast Batterskull, then played Armageddon. (That was... unexpected, but super good). Granted that's the two trumpiest trump cards that they have, but I still felt funny giving them all those basics. Burn also makes me queasy because of Fireblast.
Another thing I've noticed is that I tend to flood out a lot, especially if I don't have Library/Top. Though there has been times when I have been looking for outs and found three lands off my Library. Is that common with this deck? I play 9 fetches, 6 basics, 5 duals, Tower, and Karakas. In my first build of the deck I played Nylea, God of the Hunt, but cut her, but I really feel like some sort of mana sink token maker would be great (as opposed to a Garruk or something that doesn't use mana and can only be activated once per turn). Wren's Run Packmaster, suggested above, would be great if we had more elves. Here are some other ideas:
Heliod, God of the Sun
Budoka Gardener
Jade Magea
Master of the Hunt (lol bands with other)
Nemata, Grove Guardian
Soul of Zendikar
Selesnya Guildmage
Hydra Broodmaster
They all seem mostly terrible, except maybe Soul of Zendikar, since you can get some value if it's in your GY. Maybe none of it's right. I am so tempted to try Kessig Wolf Run but it seems so greedy.
I board out Vets vs Miracles, High Tide and Cloudpost and will shave some vs OmniTell/Show and Tell. I'll sometimes shave them for more blue cards or for thoughtseize vs other combo decks, depending on the variant. It sucks to have Death and Taxes hardcast a Cataclysm on turn two, but the amount of times that will happen compared to you running them over with a huge bomb favors keeping the Explorers in, in my opinion.
Flooding is something that will just happen if you're playing 22 lands and your only library manipulation is Top. I think I've lost more games due to missing a color or flooding than to anything else, even with 4 Brainstorm in my deck.
Went 1-2 in my weekly local last night with Siege-Fit. Here is my current list.
Round 1: UR Delver 0-2
Round 2: Tin Fins 1-2
Round 3: Bant 2-0
Details on the UR match?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
The other two results are expected.
I would love some help with my plays, I am still new to this deck. Here is the UR match breakdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Game 1: He wins the roll and starts off with Island -> Git Probe (my hand is 3 Fetch, Archangel, Reclamation Sage, Selvala, Green Sun's Zenith) -> Delver. I draw a Tusk, play a fetch, and pass the turn. He doesn't flip the delver, plays a fetch -> volc, ponders, beats for 1, then plays delver #2. I draw Top, play another fetch, and drop to 17 to GSZ for Veteran Explorer. On his upkeep, he flips both Delvers, adds a land, and attacks with both. I drop to 11, and he adds a young pyromancer to the board before cantripping and adding a token. I draw Cabal Therapy, play a fetch, cabal therapy him. It resolves, and I name lightning bolt (potential mistake: should have named Brainstorm). I see a hand of Bolt, Fire/Ice, Brainstorm, Ponder. I sac Veteran to flashback, he gets an island and a mountian and brainstorms in response to cabal. Cabal resolves, I name Fire/Ice (potential mistake: since he brainstormed I maybe should have named something else), he shows Ponder Delver Git Probe. I play Selvala and a Top with my extra mana for the turn, and pass back to him. He git probes, ponders forgetting his YP token trigger, plays a delver, and attacks with his air force putting me down to 5. Back on my turn, I draw land, play land, play Archangel (potential mistake: probably should have played tusk here in the face of multiple delvers). On his turn, he flips his 3rd delver, fire/ice's to tap the Archangel, attacks with everything. I block young peezy, activate selvala for the heck of it, and I see cabal therapy and he shows flooded strand. I am dead anyways to 9 damage in the air.
In: 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Ethersworn Canonist (I have no idea if this is right, and in hindsight I should have also boarded in Choke)
Out: 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Reclamation Sage (mistake as I later remember he has Sulf Vortex), 1 Council's Judgment, 1 Gaddock Teeg
Game 2: I keep a hand with 3 Lands, 1 zenith, 1 Top, 1 Deed, 1 Cabal Therapy. I play land, Therapy him naming Delver of Secrets. He shows me Fire/Ice, Vortex, Bolt, and 4 Lands. He goes Land pass. I draw Top, GSZ for Veteran Explorer, flashback cabal therapy naming sulfuric vortex. He reveals that he drew his 2nd vortex, and is left with bolt, Fire/Ice, and 3 lands. I play my top and leave 1 mana up to top at the end of his turn. He draws, plays land into swiftspear and attacks me for 1. I activate top and see something on the lines of Sun Titan, Land, Land, putting land on top. On my turn, I play Deed, a land, and pass. He brainstorms, probes, then attacks, putting me to 16 (I had fetched). I decide to let the attack through and see if he commits more to the board. He doesn't, so I just top at eot seeing Sun Titan, Land, and STP, putting STP on top. I draw, play a land, and pass. On his turn, he ponders, attacks with swiftspear, and I blow deed for 1. He adds a young pyromancer to the board. I draw sun titan, STP the pyromancer which resolves, and pass back. He plays 2 swiftspear, cantrips, attacks with swiftspears, and then treasure cruises. I top at eot and find the land I need for sun titan as well as cabal therapy and abzan charm. I play land, sun titan, get deed back. He attacks with 2 swiftspears, I block one, he cantrips and bolts sun titan trading with swiftspear and I take 3 from the other. He plays delver and young pyromancer then passes. I play deed with 2 mana up and pass. He attacks, I blow deed for 2. He treasure cruises 2 times, and plays young pyromancer. I top and see abrupt decay, cabal therapy and abzan charm, I put decay on top and decay on my turn. He cantrips 2 times, finds a delver, passes back. I draw abzan charm, pass back. he flips, attacks and I abzan charm delver. He cantrips, plays young pyromancer and bolts me to make a token. I top and see cabal therapy, land, top. I can't find a creature or an answer for the YP for the rest of the game, and lose.
Any advice would be appreciated.
It sounds like game 2 you could have waited a couple of turns before playing the deed to get him to commit more to the board; getting hit for like 9 with the swiftspear would suck, but is unlikely. How come you didn't use STP on the swiftspear?
Also, what is the typical junk answer to cruising? I usually try to get glen elendra down or force in hand asap so they can't refuel.
Yeah, waiting with the deed would have made more sense now that I think about it. Is it bad to use deed as a 1 for 1? Say your opponent probes you and knows it's there, if you have no other removal do you use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
As for junk answer to cruising I didn't really think we needed to answer it, but rather beat it by going bigger on the board and gaining lots of life. If I get a scavenging ooze early I will try to keep their yard small, but there are usually plenty of other things to be doing in the early game.
Check out this scapewish deck that just top 8'd:
Link
Bobs, no fetches, duals or tops. Budget issues, possibly?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Could be. Bob probably wouldn't be as horrid in Scapewish as he is in most other Nic Fits, though, due to the higher land count -- even if he gets blown up at some point, he's still going to draw you a few cards and hopefully not eat up too many life points.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Honestly, without Tops, there's no reason for fetches in this deck. Top obviously makes Bob better, though, and I can't see why you'd run one without the other in this style of deck. The lack of duals is a red flag as well.
Still, pretty sweet that he top 8'd even with a budget version of the deck!
Honestly, I think that goes to show the raw power of a scapewish build. I will highly advocate it even though I have literally only played 5 matches with the deck.
I have played legacy for just over 8 years now and there are 2 things that immediately come to mind when I was playing this deck this past sunday:
1) This deck is fun as hell to play...like I mean REALLY fun.
2) Since Survival of the Fittest, I can't recall a deck I played with that had so much raw power. The threat density, the multiple ways of winning, stabilizing, hand destruction, etc.
Basically, I feel that scapewish if put in the hands of a competent pilot will wreak havoc on the current meta.
This. This is why I am playing the deck at GP NJ. I am not 100% sold on my build but I feel like it gives me game versus almost everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I just REALLY want to see either Stormbreath Dragon or Siege Rhino get some camera time. Also, no I do not play standard.
I will definitely be on Scape for the GP, still hammering out some final numbers and will be testing 1-2 Dualcaster Mage but I'm 100% set on the deck. Top 4d a GPT over the weekend. I would post a summary of my games but didn't really get any new information from any of them. Rounds were:
2-0 Elves
2-0 UR Delver
2-1 UR Delver
1-2 Elves
1-2 Elves
2-1 UR Delver
Into top 8
2-1 UWR Delver
1-2 Elves
Nice metagame, lol. Over all these UR Delver games, Thragtusk did insane work, but costing 5 mana it was harder to cast through Daze than I liked. We need to gain a few points of life to beat that deck, so at Kevin's suggestion, I'm going to try out an Obstinate Baloth over the 2nd Thrag, to have access to large chunks of life gain at multiple spots on the GSZ curve. Both creatures die to double bolt but at least Baloth doesn't trade with Delver or with Pyromancer tokens quite as easily. It's obviously worse against Miracles but I'm comfortable enough with the Miracles matchup- especially with Dualcaster to double up on Decays and steal their Entreats- that I'm okay with that tradeoff.
The GPT confirmed that our deck is quite strong vs Delver and that Elves is rough if we don't get to cast our interactive spells, but none of that is really news. Made me consider a 2nd or even a 3rd Pyroclasm in my sideboard, which is something I've and liked done in the past, but not sure yet what I'd cut. Will post my GP list when I finalize it next week, pending some testing with Dualcaster and some more thought. I did quite well last year and I think this metagame has the potential to be even more favorable for us than it was at GPDC when everyone had just discovered True-Name Nemesis, so I feel very confident in this deck choice.
That meta makes my eye twitch. I grew up in Rochester and it always had such a great MTG community when I was a kid, it's sad to see it so homogenized.
Can you post your scapewish list? Why not Golgari Charm over Pyroclasm? Pyroclasm doesn't kill TNN...
Pyroclasm doesn't kill TNN, but Charm doesn't kill Deathrite Shaman or Monastery Swiftspear or flipped Delver.
The list I played was:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
EDIT AGAIN: I might as well post my side boarding for the TWO matchups I played.
UR Delver: -1 Witness, -1 Wood Elves, +2 REB. Brought in the 3rd REB in favor of a Wish when my UWR opponent Meddling Mage'd my Wish.
Elves: -2 Thrag, -1 Titan, -1 Witness, -1 Wood Elves, +2 Games, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Massacre
Proposed changes:
-1 Thragtusk, +1 Obstinate Baloth
-1 Eternal Witness, +1 Dualcaster Mage
-1 ??, +1 Dualcaster Mage
Also considering -1 Swamp, +1 Kessig Wolf Run
SB:
-1 Wolf Run (to the main deck), -1 REB, +2 Pyroclasm
Charm is good and all but since you're playing it basically as Shrivel, I'd much rather have Pyroclasm. Since you often need to kill 2-toughness dudes, and against elves you really want to cast it on turn 2/3 and it's easier to keep a hand with red+green than it is to keep one with black+green, in my experience. When I last had 3x Clasm in my sideboard, I found it was sometimes helpful to have access to it twice in the same game against Deathblade, for example, because it kills Stoneforges (yet another thing Golgari Charm can't do!). Having Innocent Blood, Deluge and Massacre to kill TNNs, plus being able to just ignore them sometimes, I don't feel like I need more answers to that card. It's not like there are a ton of them in the general metagame anyway, and most of the decks playing it are pretty good match ups to begin with.
EDIT: Rochester still has a great Magic community, but a lot of the regulars who I consider the higher tier of players weren't there, and a lot of people came from the surrounding area with Elves. But yeah it was super homogeneous, the top 8 was me, UWR Delver, the 2 Elves players who beat me in the swiss, and 4 UR delver. I was praying for the delver players to beat the Elves so I could smash the rest of the top 8, but it was unfortunately not to be.
@MrIggins: Gratz for your solid performance (still a weird meta...)
@Scapeshift:
Dualcaster Mage? Is he good enough? I am looking forward to some test results.
In the past i gained my Nic Fit experience with Punishing Fit and BUG Pod, so i thought about "Sorcery-Stuff" in Scapeshift. Has anyone considered the following spells?
-Far Wanderings (Wishtarget with "Treshhold" to gain more than enough lands to scape or zenith into titan the following turn)
-Kodama's Reach (Isn't it better as a 2nd Wood Elves, sure it can't block, and can't be tutored but it brings "2" lands)
-Primal Growth ("Kicker" Explorer!, Wood Elves, Huntmaster Token, Thragtusk etc. to profit?)
I still test with the new Titania and try to curve out a list, lifegain is needed vs UR Delver but Thragtusk seems to slow (he is solid enough, but sometimes it needs backup to ramp into him), so Baloth or even Kitchen Finks can curve out the deck smothly. I don't feel a 2nd Huntmaster is good enough in the current meta.
Maybe:
1 Finks
1 Baloth
1 Huntmaster
1 Thragtusk
All seems solid enough against fast UR Delver Decks and we can chain into them for huge lifegains. Sadly Thragtusk is the only one, that performes well enough against Terminus&Swords. With less Spell Pierce, Batterskull is also an option, but it can't be tutored and does "nothing" the turn it comes into play. I hope Wizards print one more "leaves the battlefield and profit" Creature for Nic Fit.
Compared to my other Nic Fit Brews, my current Scapeshift version has 2-3 Carpet of Flowers and i like it at the moment, with all the "Treasure Cruise, Play Blue" Decks, it seems solid enough again. Thoughts?
Carpet of flowers is used for:Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
1) replacing veteran explorer against "blue" control matchup (mainly blade and miracle decks)
2) overcoming the land denial & taxing counter strategies against blue tempo.deck.
I don't know if it is still a good SB card in regards to what you are trying to do: lowering your curve.
Playing 1 Baloth, 1 Huntmaster, 1 Thrag, 1 Finks might be enough to "contain" tempo.deck WITHOUT needing carpet of flowers.
Lowering the curve also helps you versus control matchup because you are improving your clock. For example against miracle, I know that with scapefit I am not in the driver seat until I resolve a pernicious deed & a beatstick. Paying less mana for a 3/2 or a 4/4 right away instead of waiting for landing a Thragtusk can only be good.
Anyway, this is only theorycrafting.
@whole thread:
I like the Scape list posted a page back.
The mana base seems horrible (and I'm not talking about modern lands), but I think we should keep few ideas for thoughts:
- No Scapeshift MD -> Why the hell didn't I think about it sooner? I hate having it in my opening hand (mulligan) and I hate drawing it usually before T5. Between valakut & scapeshift this is 4 cards (odds are approximatively around 40 % to have at least 1 of these 4 cards in an opening hand) that I don't want to see in my opening hand. Lowering the count to only 2 valakut immediately reads less mulligan.
- 7 discard & Bob -> This is borrowed from Punishing Jund. And this is clearly one of the biggest strenght of P.Jund as a T2 Bob protected by a T1 discard can single-handedly take over a game. Not to mention that Bob must be answered which most likely will drag out some counters & removal to take care of him, leaving the path "cleared" for one of our bigger threats (Huntmaster, etc..)
This direct consequence has a lot of impact as we are advancing in the midgame. Before, opponents use to "save" their removal(s) (not always on purpose, btw) mainly because, logically, you are not going to spend a bolt, a decay on a veteran explorer. During lots of game, I had to make the choice between removal & counter with a cabal on the stack. The obvious and necessary choice was to go after the FOW and not after the removal, thus, the first proper beatstick was, unfortunately, dead on sight. This configuration also improve significantly our combo MU. Having access to 7 discard effects MD is a lot more of disruption in the first place.
Obviously, this setup has a lot of impacts on the way we are playing scapefit:
- Less "I win" topdecks because of less scapeshift in the deck
- A mana base & creature list to be entirely reworked ->creatures that help ramping have to go and be replaced by impactful ones.
- A completely new sideboard save the inherent staples due to burning wish.
My gut feeling is that the biggest cost of this evolution is that we might get into a more control & grindy territory with a final combo "uppercut" for a great KO. The goal is the same, but this path is maybe more balanced/consistent and less subject to "variance".
To be investigated before drawing any conclusions.
Sidenotes:
- Bob or Sylvan Library with any number of tops ?
@MrIggins: Congrats on your finish! Glad to hear someone else is running scapeshift and crushin it. Question, Do you feel that Kitchen Finks is necessary against UR Delver? Or is Huntermaster, Baloth, and Thragtusk ok? Also, how did you like the 3rd scapeshift main? For me, running 2 main and 4 BW seemed like plenty.
Thoughts on Dualcaster Mage (*Disclaimer, Arianrhod discussed this with me through PM and most of these ideas come from him):
It provides something to take advantage of multiple red-source draws, which do sometimes happen.
It provides protection for Scapeshift
It provides generic utility -- this is probably the biggest category.
Copy EoT Entreat for lethal
Copy Treasure Cruise
Copy Decay/Bolt/etc netting a 2/2 + removal spell
Copy Brainstorm / Ponder is still perfectly fine
Copy Thoughtseize either out of combo decks or when holding priority with your own to double Seize + clock
Copy Scapeshift at 7 lands in order to kill someone at greater than 20 life total (previously you would need to wait until 8 lands to do this, which sometimes didn't happen)
With that said, I think DCM is at least a 2-of in the deck. My thoughts are now, since we are adding 2 cards that are not tutorable with GSZ, that we can shave 1 GSZ to make room.
Here is a list I am currently working on:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
2 Dualcaster Mage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Badland
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ruination
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Massacre
if Scapewish is going to put in a Dualcaster Mage, it might be a reasonable option to put a single Twinflame or Heat Shimmer in the board, since they go infinite with him and are Wish targets. I could see myself using it as a backup plan in cases where we encounter Leyline of Sanctity, Meddling Mage on Scapeshift, or just have too many Mountains out to get to lethal / our opponents have too much life. It gives us access to yet another ticking clock, which is handy at times. I've been testing with one main and another in the sideboard, and I'm pretty happy so far.
I've also cut Primeval Titan. I dunno about you guys, but I've found that he is awful unless the game goes absurdly long, and it's always disappointing to have him in your opening hand. He's also pretty vulnerable to removal considering that he costs 6. A lot of the time his trigger is awkward anyway, since if you strip too many lands out of your deck your Scapeshifts all become blank which is really worrying.
As well as the list above, DCM is also pretty spicy with Cabal Therapy- you can copy the Therapy and then sac DCM to it afterwards for three activations, which is pretty scary. He's also pretty scary for Shardless BUG what with the whole 'copy your Visions' thing.
RE: Everyone
I've been happy with the 3rd Scapeshift in the main deck, it makes it easier to find them when you need them and it also makes it more possible to jam them into counterspells until the opponent runs out. Like if I know my opponent has a Force, I can on 7 mana go Scapeshift, get it countered, Wish for another one. If they have another Force, well, I found another Scapeshift so you're dead. That sort of thing. It's not strictly needed and I may trim the 4th for one of my Dualcaster Mages since he effectively doubles up on it anyway+additional utility. Having it hand isn't so bad, I've found, as it lets you use your Wishes for utility and staying alive.
I really don't like Kitchen Finks. It does have the utility of eating a bolt and still blocking, which is fine and all, but Huntmaster gets to do that too and he also applies a real amount of pressure to control decks and is a legitimate clock vs the unfair decks. While he has gotten a bit weaker recently (why we're on 2 not 3), it's not so much that I want to go down to 1 because he's such a powerful last threat and can still just take over games against a lot of fair decks.
On Primeval Titan, Kevin and I had the thought of cutting him before last year's GP and then it won a bunch of games that literally no other card in magic would have. It does require planning ahead a little bit to win the game with a resolved Prime Time, but if you do set yourself up to start triggering Valakuts on his first attack step, it's hard to lose the game with the card. Even if it doesn't get to attack, suddenly your Wood Elves are now also Lightning Bolts. We have enough mountains that unless it's REALLY late into the game (in which case you probably got both Valakuts off of the Titan) you can probably still Shift for 18, or even do a "smaller" shift where you get the 2nd Valakut plus all the mountains in your deck and do 12-18 damage with just those. I am not looking to cut this guy, especially if I'm adding the main deck Wolf Run.
I don't hate the Twinflame suggestion, the problem is where to fit it. It's not like the card has zero utility anyway, copying a Thragtusk is reasonably big game, etc. I will probably test that, actually, because it seems like a pretty powerful option, if I can find a cut. If I never have a spot where Wishing for it is right, then we'll move on. Twinflame costing 2 mana makes it quite a bit more reasonable than some of the spicy 1-of Wish targets we've played throughout the years but I'm still not convinced. We will see.
Wait, DCM + Twinflame = infinite? If so, does anyone have a link where people have discussed that ruling. For some reason I'm thinking it can't work because of the timing of Twinflame being on the stack and DCM triggered ability....for the copies I mean....right?
Just looked it up, there definitely has to be another creature out on the battlefield first which is the original target for twinflame.
Right, you Twinflame your other creature, and then you Dualcaster the Twinflame and make another Dualcaster with the copy, etc, etc. They do not go infinite just by themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
You have to have another target for Twinflame to go off, yeah- it's why I was thinking of playing Heat Shimmer instead since it doesn't have to target your creatures you can cast it a bit more reliably. An extra mana is pretty awkward, though.
Next door:Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...alcaster-Combo
It seems you need a target + Twinflame + DCM (5 Mana, or 7 with Wish the same turn, which also enable Scape).
@bryanzoll:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about Dualcaster Mage. It is right, that Scapeshift has a) enough red mana b) more than enough mana to abuse this little boy some way.
I will try him out on Cockatrice. What i like is (most of) your list with him, 2 Thoughtseizes Main provides some nice extra protection with or without the red mage.
My snap changes would be:
-Thrun, the Last Troll
-Sylvan Library
+1 Sensei /+1 Diabolic Intend
+1 Creature: Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Courser of Kruphix / +1 Garruk Relentless (kill stuff, tutor stuff, spam stuff etc.)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Dualcaster Mage
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Twinflame
----
That's where I'm at for the moment. I'm going to test Twinflame at Mythic this weekend and see if it happens // what random utility it actually offers. On paper it seems strong, but I'm not sure how it will be in practice.
I am hoping to find room for the Eternal Witness, though. Haven't figured out what I'm cutting for it yet. Witness + Twinflame forms a pretty strong loop, especially if you have things around to Strive it on.
I THINK that Twinflame is better than Heat Shimmer because it costs 1 less and can copy multiple things mid-late -- both of which are a little better for its "utility" side. Shimmer is likely the better pure 'combo' option, though.
My experiences with Thrun and Sylvan library were both so great there's no way I would cut them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
Thoughts on Thrun:
-Can't be countered
-Can Regenerated
-Excellent synergy with Kessig Wolf Run
-Blanks all forms of removal outside of Terminus
I ran a 2/1 splits between top and library based upon arianrhod's recommendation and it was solid. The games where I had library, it was excellent, it gave me several instances where paying 4 life for an extra card was relevant.
Thoughts on Thoughtseize Main:
-Improves combo matchup significantly
-Can help out in a lot of other instances where thoughtseize is good enough to stall us to where the deck takes over
-Allows for a ridiculous line of play:
-Turn 1: Thoughtseize
-Turn 2: Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer, flashback Cabal Therapy
Another Abzan list. (FYI: this is brainstorming, nothing is tested)
This list came about from my frustration of fighting against Miracles (which is rampant in my meta), specifically against terminus. I wanted to have a threat package that was relatively resistant to terminus, and the best stuff I could think of was planeswalkers and batterskull. If you are playing batterskull, might as well be playing stoneforge, and elspeth is great at everything, including playing with equipment, so the rest of the list kinda forms from there.
Most of the card choices are standard/obvious, deed is omitted because it has too much unwanted splash damage in this list, although there should be some in the sideboard I think. The bomb of choice (other than batterskull) is sigarda, because she is GSZ-friendly and she can voltron up and kill the opponent in one shot. The preferred sword of x&y is fire/ice, mostly to sneak through TNN.
Most aggro matchups should be easy, and probably a joke after SB. SB should have some 2-3 graveyard/combo help, a few utility cards (probably GZ targets) and the rest things that are good against TNN/miracles. Usually in Abzan Nic Fit I don't worry about TNN, but since there is no deeds maindeck, I assume he will be less of a pushover. (FYI: current sideboard was just mashed together, probably subpar)
I'm wondering if Raking Canopy has any merit as a sideboard card. Reasoning: one in play turns off all entreat the angels (and cliques) and delvers for the rest of the game. Thoughts?
--creatures--
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
--equipment--
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Batterskull
--planeswalkers--
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
--spells--
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 sylvan library
--lands--
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
--sideboard--
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Raking Canopy
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Shriekmaw
Has anyone tried Desecration Demon in any version of Nic Fit?
Desec has shown up in some straight G/B lists every now and then. He's kind of bad right now, though, with Young Pyro everywhere.
Raking Canopy has seen Nic Fit play before. If it sticks, it's effective at what it does. There's usually better, less narrow options, though.
UR is another deck that seems fairly weak to Moat. Not sure if I would maindeck again at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
This is a list I've been developing independently since Cruise was printed. Really happy to see some other people are on something similar.
I've found it has good game against a lot of the metagame and I've been doing well in local events, I'm just waiting for a bigger one to really put it to the test (my ultimate goal is GP Kyoto).
The deck crushes creature decks, Delver, D&T, Tribal (though without teeg, elves can get you) etc.
It's favourable against Miracles, thanks to Decay, SFM, Teeg, Pithing Needles and Sylvan Library.
It does not care about RIP (comfortably beat RIP miracles multiple times)
It has game against combo, thanks to therapy, teegs and other hate cards out the side.
Of course no deck answers everything, it's weak to decks that can go over the top, fortunately Humility can usually save us there. Decks that severely outgrind you (lands). As well as super fast combo, but that's true of any non-FoW deck.
The main issue is we don't have brainstorm etc, so we have consistency issues, and despite having game against a lot of the popular decks in the format, sometimes you just don't draw what you want. The Zeniths and Library's, Mystics and tutors are there to help, but it's still its main weakness. Not that that has stopped me from playing Junk midrange before >:)
4 Verd Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savanah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
22
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Greensun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Toxic Deluge
2 Sylvan Library
60
2 Duress
1 Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of L&S
2 Deed
1 Humility
I've sideboard notes and understand all my card choices so feel free to ask.
Hopefully in a couple of weeks I can bring you a tournament report with a significant number of rounds, for now I can just say I'm winning a lot, and am very excited :)
Couple of questions & food for thoughts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
- No sigarda ? I can understand that Rhino is a big deal himself but even with 2 phyrexian tower, there will be some games against STP.decks where you could wish having another beater. Not to mention that as much as the SFM package is strong, it is more than expected and there are a lot of artifact hate in any sideboarding strategy.
- 2 Phyrexian tower ? Interesting choice, but I sincerely think you are overcommiting to a card in a deck where you don't use its full value. I mean being able to Toxic deluge T2, daze proof is nice, but otherwise you lack of big bombs which could as well profit a lot from phyrexian tower. I encourage you to weight your choice with a karakas instead. If you consider a karakas to replace your phyrexian tower, you might also want a 1-of reliquary of knight. This card + your 3 utility lands (PT, VS and Karakas) would buy you tons of bad matchup. Not to mention that it would enable sweet plays with KoTR fetching karakas & GSZ for Teeg.
- 4 Toxic Deluge ? As much as I do like the card, I cannot understand such a devotion. I mean, it is strong against fair decks as long as you have enough life gain to support it but in a bigger event you might lose to random artifact/enchant decks. You may consider a small split (3/1) with a maelstrom pulse as a catch-all as you have already 2 deed in your sideboard.
- Penumbra spider, really ? In what kinda of matchup is it MVP ? Delver ? You have already 4 decay & 4 Toxic Deluge ? If you really want to edge against flying creature, I would go with Matsu-Tribe Sniper which has the ability to mess with Emrakul & Griselbrand to name a few.
- Sideboard:
1) I like enlightened tutor but right now the meta sideboarding strategy is mostly built around "hating the hate" for combo deck and "hating what I'm losing against" for fair decks. You'll never reliablely either resolve an enlightened tutor or get to stick your hate with a 1-of. Just, double-up on humility & ethersworn canonist (or 1 Spirit of the labyrinth). Furthermore, I get the feeling that you are not enough commited into the 1-of tutor package plan to justify its use.
2) Duress ? Go with Thoughtseize. Life does not matter in the matchup you side them in. Not being able to discard a hoof, a griselbrand / emrakul will cost you more games than losing 2 life points.
3) Relic of progenitus ? I know you want to, efficiently, deal with TC/DTT but I think you are already pretty well equiped MD against it (4 DRS, 1 Ooze). As you are playing potentially six 1-CMC discard post board, I invite you to use "surgical extraction" (or even extirpate) as I've stolen quite a few games against combo deck with an opening hand containing discard + surgical effect. It is that BACKBREAKING. Period. You need, during very long tournaments, free wins. Not to mention that it can come in against quadlazered fair decks. Removing the whole beatstick package from an opponent is rough (or even their hate).
4) Sword of L&S: again interesting choice but, here again, I cannot see against what matchup it is a MVP. I would make room for another discard spell or a krosan grip. If you want to stick with an equipment, I would play Feast & Famine as its ability as a broader impact on the meta.
My overall first impression (and I would like to have your sideboarding tables to further add thoughts about your deck) is that you are playing a lot against your local meta. You are, to my liking, not enough "opened/hedged" for bigger tournaments.
Keep rocking and welcome on the NicFit crew !!
Regarding Penumbra Spider: Im curious about this choice as well: for me, there are better options. Sigarda if youre looking at the high end, Scryb Ranger if you need to prot wall a Delver while providing some utility with traditional mana dorks.