The new Legacy metagame

Crimhead, that scenario's exactly what I was asking. I also think, though, that a lot of the decks that were performing well against Miracles are still performing well, so I think it's worth comparing.

What I'm trying to figure out is how much of the decks' new dominance is just a result of the disappearance of another top-flight contender. It's only been a few weeks, after all, and the consensus for at least some of those decks seems to be that big changes aren't really necessary.

This might all be a fool's errand: excellent Miracles players might have just picked up other decks with which they were familiar and kept rocking tournaments, a lot of people running other decks with Top might have run for higher ground, etc. I just think that at this stage there are more factors than "a predator is gone" for the reason decks that were competing for the top slots before the ban (and haven't changed much since) are getting a larger share of top-8 results.

Fox, you're right that sideboards and manabases are changing. I just wonder how much those changes are really making a difference.

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Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

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Deathrite doesn't do that much to Dredge, it slows them down a little, but if DRS is your only interaction you're not winning over 50% of the time. 2 Surgical is ok, but also not great. It's enough to filter Dredge out of the top rounds, but not enough to stop them from spiking any smaller tournament.

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Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

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Deathrite and surgical aren't nearly enough to convince me to not play dredge. Just sayin, play what you want/know and worry less about the variables is a fine strategy. Magic players have become so convinced by the internet whats safe and not safe to play its fucking pathetic.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Deathrite and surgical aren't nearly enough to convince me to not play dredge. Just sayin, play what you want/know and worry less about the variables is a fine strategy. Magic players have become so convinced by the internet whats safe and not safe to play its fucking pathetic.

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This is something I can agree with

What is Street Wraith, the post.

;b

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Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

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This actually helps Dredge immensly, having to prepare for just DRS and Surgical is way easier to having to deal with them and also rip.

Playing 4 firestorm and 4 SW should already be enought.

Dredge really only needs to be afraid of leyline, rest in peace, and cage.

Most people don't even take the right card with surgical anyway.

The current problem for Dredge isn't Deathrite and Surgical being ubiquitous. It's that Miracles is now gone, and no deck has stepped up to take it's place. Grixis is by far the most played deck. But the big plus and minus for Grixis is it has no direct path to victory. So there is no linear way to attack it. So without a best deck that a sideboard can be tuned toward, most players are fleshing theirs out by expanding existing slots. Instead of 2 Pyroblast they run 3. And instead of 2 Surgical, 1 Cage, they've added a second. In the aggregate, this adds to a huge problem. Especially in cantrip decks with multiple ways to find them. Even more so because they are two completely different axis' of hate Dredge needs to prepare for.

One trend (possibly & preliminarily) I'm seeing in recent events, compared to late Top meta and very early Top-less meta, is that Bant Deathblade and Czech Pile, AKA 4-color monstrosities, might be experiencing a drop-off.

Seeing the top 16 from this weekends SCG Legacy event just made my pants seem tighter for some reason. If this is the type of stuff people will be playing now, I'm in!

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Originally Posted by Madmankevinx

Seeing the top 16 from this weekends SCG Legacy event just made my pants seem tighter for some reason. If this is the type of stuff people will be playing now, I'm in!

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So, in the last day we've gotten top 16s of
SCG Louisville with:

Jund Depths
Infect
Food Chain
Grixis Delver
U/B Landstill
Belcher
BUG Delver
Grixis Delver
Maverick
Sneak and Show
Elves
Shardless BUG
Aggro Loam
Sneak and Show
Eldrazi
B/R Reanimator

And the MTGO Legacy Challenge with:

Elves
Dragon Stompy
Infect
Food Chain
Dark Depths
Grixis Delver
BRUG Cascade
Topless Miracles
Czech Pile
ANT
U/R Delver
Death and Taxes
Sneak and Show
Aluren
Death and Taxes
BUG Delver

Gawjus.

I like it better than this so far
http://66.media.tumblr.com/c3777c3f4...rpajo1_500.gif

I must agree that's a fine looking spread! It's promising to see 3 control archetypes that might have what it takes to be strong in the new meta.

Sad to see no aggro still. But Burn will always "under-achieve" (being unpopular among seasoned players). Maybe if there is an uptick in Legacy's popularity we can get some Affinity players migrating from Modern.

Also a recent mtgo event had three miracles decks at 5-0

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I must agree that's a fine looking spread! It's promising to see 3 control archetypes that might have what it takes to be strong in the new meta.

Sad to see no aggro still. But Burn will always "under-achieve" (being unpopular among seasoned players). Maybe if there is an uptick in Legacy's popularity we can get some Affinity players migrating from Modern.

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Are we on denial, or is this an echo chamber? There's no control, not even close. The 4cc (or that screw-up name czech pile) is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

The result can be interpreted as in flux. It's mostly combos vs tempos vs people trying to figure the meta. I expect something similar in the GP.

Standstill is not control? Ok. That's news.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Standstill is not control? Ok. That's news.

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What, you didn't realize that? There was never a control deck in MtG's history until Miracles came around in Legacy. Even Brian Weissman, damn him to hell, ran SERRA ANGELS! You don't run dastardly creatures in a control deck!


At least, that's what I've understood from reading over these threads

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Originally Posted by Big McLargeHuge

What, you didn't realize that? There was never a control deck in MtG's history until Miracles came around in Legacy. Even Brian Weissman, damn him to hell, ran SERRA ANGELS! You don't run dastardly creatures in a control deck!


At least, that's what I've understood from reading over these threads

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Lets be real here if you're running creatures bigger than a 2/x you're playing an aggro deck. :cool:

First italian big event since the banning

Pretty sick metagame over here

4 color baleful strix aggro

UB creeping factory midrange

^Fixed the nomenclature:

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Lands Midrange 1
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2
Tezzeret Midrange 3
Aluren 4
BUG Midrange 5
Grixis Pyromancer 6
4c Midrange 7
Death and Taxes 8

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Originally Posted by Claymore

4 color baleful strix aggro

UB creeping factory midrange

^Fixed the nomenclature:

Lands Midrange 1
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2
Tezzeret Midrange 3
Aluren 4
BUG Midrange 5
Grixis Pyromancer 6
4c Midrange 7
Death and Taxes 8

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To be fair: The so-called BUG Control is Shardless BUG. If that's not Midrange, I am losing it right now...

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Are we on denial, or is this an echo chamber? There's no control, not even close. The 4cc (or that screw-up name czech pile) is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

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No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

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You had to be a top mind to use 1 white mana to cast a terminus.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

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That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract, did you find anything constructive out of this thread?

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic.

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I agree with this.

It's a feature of midrange decks that they can just as easily play "control" or "beatdown" as the circumstances dictate. This is why Maverick, Blade, Aggro Loam, and Shardless are considered midrange.

The Landstill, Jund Depths, and Topless Terminus lists we are seeing look like they would have a pretty rough time trying to play "beatdown". To me, that makes the "hard" control - they are dedicated to playing that roll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

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Decks that are more dedicated to playing control (or aggro, for that matter) add a uniqueness to the game that we don't see if all the fair decks are aggro/control hybrids such as tempo decks and midrange decks.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract...

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This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

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I would argue R/G Lands is a combo/control deck.
RUG Lands can pull off fast combo wins, but these are unusual enough I would consider it hard control personally (as somebody who plays both versions).

Edit - more to the point, Lands has been invisible in the meta lately. Still seems like a solid choice imo, but they don't add much to diversity if they aren't being played.

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

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Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

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Originally Posted by maharis

Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

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Hear hear! :laugh:

Is anybody actually arguing that Jund Depths isn't a control deck?

Control decks play draw,go until t4 where they cast Wrath of God and follow it up with a Serra's Angel. Where the fuck did you people grow up?

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard

Creatures are for nerds and dorks, interaction is for suckers

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard

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Naw, Drownyard is how you beat a true control deck most reliably. When that's your most reliable wincon, you're up against a true control deck.

My blade deck is actually a combo/control deck. I combo'd Moorland Haunt with playing creatures so I can use it's activated ability (COMBO!), or counter spells with the open mana (Control.) Opponent's never see it coming and all the sudden they're gettin' beaten down by a 1/1 Flyer with Flash.

Flash in a 1/1 to chump your Snap? That's true control.
And combo, because I used two cards.

True control decks don't play a wincon.

Relic of Progenitus is a great win con if you're playing online.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

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This is an example of a troll making up terminology when as one goes, shifting argument.

I cast Small pox, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Thoughtseize, activate Liliana, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Tangle Wire, Chalice, am I all the sudden a control deck?

First define/draw the distinction and the definition for:
prison strategy
resource denial

then you get to describe what control, in its purest classical sense, is.

Let's mock other users on this forum on this arbitrary context-shifting concept. That's the motivation of this thread.

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.

When I personally think of what a control deck looks like, it looks more like this:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will

2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

1 Island
1 Swamp

than it does "cast spell 1, cast spell 2, game turned into a farce". That pattern is telltale prison deck stuff as far as I'm concerned. Saying that the above list is not a control deck sounds profoundly strange, as well. We're not talking 4xgoyf.dec here, we're talking cantrips that live to block/stall, reuse for removal, CA spells and countermagic, we see countermagic, discard, card selection, intent on grinding people out. How that is not control is beyond me.

(As an aside, go play Pauper. This just 5-0ed.)

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.

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Standstill is with one of the three (recently successful) decks I had identified as control. Of course it's control!

Also, why are even talking about (counter-top) Miracles? I'm more interested in what kind of control decks are going to be prominent now. Too early to say, but it's looking promising. :)

I gotta agree with dice box and zombie on this one. Top was combo prison. Miracles durdled like so many prison decks looking for its win condition.