Hi everyone, just wanted to chime in and say CalebD went 5-0 in a mtgo league with a very vanilla mono-white list.
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Hi everyone, just wanted to chime in and say CalebD went 5-0 in a mtgo league with a very vanilla mono-white list.
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I had a couple 4-1's yesterday. Also caught CalebD playing it again last night: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingAgreeableTarsierBudStar
This card's tension with Chalice probably means it won't immediately fit into this deck, but it seems insane with Sai just cranking out 4/4s every turn for 1 mana or as another inf mana sink
https://media.wizards.com/2018/c18/en_yTEiTVLVtY.png
Maybe this is a direction the UW build can go in with Sai, Trinket Mage and playing FoW and more 1-drops instead of CotV.
FoW will never make sense when comboing involves discarding our hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
Caleb's Bomberman coverage starts shortly after 3 hours and 13 minutes in.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/287617315?t=03h13m26s
https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-...Balance_EN.png
Call me crazy but I think we're the best deck in the format that can utilize this (if it even does get utilized). 1 LED and a sol land can activate it, and we drop our hand crazy quick/don't care if our artifacts hit the GY. It doesn't even affect artifacts so we can keep our chalices, and refill our hand with all our baubles, and aside from mentor (in which case we're probably just winning) we play few creatures.
I think if anything it'd be a sideboard card, but instant speed nuking opponents hand / wrathing the board / armageddon is no joke.
I like this over Magus of the Disk that Rationalist was playing. Seems great as a tutor bullet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
Magus of the Disk is definitely marginal and should look to be replaced. I would be happy to test this card (or most any suggested card) in its place.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns
The only parts of the sideboard I currently feel comfortable with (Full-Color Build) are 3x Quicksmith Rebel, 2x Sanctum Prelate, 2x Manic Vandal, 1x Containment Priest, 1x Sorcerous Spyglass, 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x (Surge Node / EE). The remaining ~3rd of the sideboard could use some development, and I've been spending the past couple weeks trying to figure that out.
Caleb is pretty deadset on no ensnaring bridge and straight mono white. I disagree on the bridges but he is better at this game than I. The deck feels more powerful either way, but I keep thinking about u/w or b/w.
Blue just for Sai and Trinket Mage doesn't seem worth it. Artificer's Intuition is interesting but likely not playable with trinket mage. Not sure.
Black works for Bob, freebooter, and what else?
I'd like to find some way in the 75 to repeatably kill. Executioner's Capsule? Big Improvise Demon (can't remember name but seems shitty)?
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I tried Ensnaring Bridge after learning firsthand it was nearly impossible to beat Eldrazi Stompy. Now I feel like the favorite in the matchup; they just can't beat that card. Also, Show and Tell can't remove a bridge through a chalice on 2 (Abrade, Echoing Truth). I was never sold on Swords to Plowshares in the board and have dropped them completely.
I liked Orzhov Pontiff in the BW deck before Karn came out. Casting non-human, colored spells isn't trivial, but I had a couple Collective Brutality in the board too.
I also think mono W is the best version though. I've enjoyed 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone Bauble/Mindstone slot online and thought about finding a space for one in the paper 60. I tested playing with 4x in a league and it was too slow and ate a lot of countermagic, but 1x feels really good.
FYI, it seems people are scooping to the combo much more often in MTGO leagues, which is so much appreciated. I think CalebD probably is to thank for this. I finally feel really good with my sideboard and that was only possible because I was able to play the deck online and try out many configurations.
I'll concede that Mono White should probably be considered the stock list at this point, as it is clearly the most popular and most likely to attract the attention of new players to the deck, but I remain unconvinced. Would you be able to share precisely what he said that you're referencing, or bring forward your own arguments in its favor and correct my own flawed thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Here are my basic skepticisms on the Mono-White list:
It's less consistent, it has a greedier mana-curve, it has more air / less gas, it's more susceptible to counterspells, and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).
I've played around with it before and have yet to be convinced. I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong though. What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?
I'll attempt to address those skepticisms from my experience piloting mono-W:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
At assembling the combo, but it gains a more consistent back-up plan of grinding people out with ballistas or Karns. I think one draw of mono-W is reflective of how strong you believe ballista to be, since I've won a non-zero amount of games just by playing multiple ballistas and then riding them to victory.Quote:
It's less consistent
Karn does make certain 4-drop heavy hands awkward, but the overall CMC of the mono-W build is still lower than the humans build. My personal experience has shown numerous times of having multiple 4-drops stranded in hand which is really annoying. Nothing worse than a hand of 2x Salvagers, Karn and then drawing another.Quote:
it has a greedier mana-curve
Whereas humans is more susceptible to blood moon. I think it's a trade off and with 4x cavern I don't think either deck is that susceptible to counterspells.Quote:
it's more susceptible to counterspells
I believe that's the case because those lists aren't necessarily playing around those cards, they're just jamming. I believe a mono-w build could quite easily construct a build that is strong vs Chalice/Sphere, and that would involve more EE and more non-0-cmc dig cards like board the weatherlight.Quote:
and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).
That said, I don't think I would play this deck period in a chalice-heavy meta, so see the proposition of trying to do so as a losing one.
Karakas is a great card.Quote:
What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?
STP is a great sideboard card.
Mono-w can play prelate main to give a further edge vs combo.
Humans relies on spells-on-a-stick to shore up sb, whereas mono-w has cleaner answers like cast out / seal of cleansing. You're right that mono-w does have a harder time finding them, so sometimes mulligans are necessary.
Basic plains protects us from wasteland, blood moon, etc. I think humans build has a harder time with chalice on 0 + blood moon.
-------
So there it is. I don't think the humans build is worse than mono-w, I think they just operate very differently and have respective strengths and weaknesses.
It's probably worth pointing out that you're supporting a 'Basic Plains' build of the deck, while the Caleb Durward Mono-White list in question plays no basic lands.
This makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.
Prelate's definitely great, but they don't even seem to be playing prelate, and that's something any Bomberman build could do equally well as long as they're not on like Sanctum of the Synod, so I don't really think that's in support of Mono-W specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
This is the other argument you put forth that does resonate well with me. If the argument is "You really want lots of Ballista, and you really want to Swords to Plowshares", than I don't know if I agree but that certainly resonates with me more than 4x Karn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
Karn is though regardless of Cavern, in fact Cavern increases the likelihood of him meeting up with counter-magic. Although to be fair he doesn't die to creature removal, so it's not like Confidant isn't also vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
I'm still mixed on some of the arguments presented, but thanks for presenting them. Mono-White has become popular enough that I think I needed the reality check to make sure I'm not being overly biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
No, that's counting Ballista as a 2-drop. If you've changed your list since the last one you posted it may be different, but the decklists are the same aside from:Quote:
Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.
mono-w:
1 Mishra's Bauble (0)
1 Sanctum Prelate (3)
2 Karn (4)
3 Walking Ballista (2)
1 EE (cmc averaged at 1.5)
for total of avg cmc of 2.31
humans:
4 Dark Confidant (2)
2 Imperial Recruiter (3)
2 Trinket Mage (3)
for total avg cmc of 2.5
Since the rest of the deck is identical that puts mono-w at lower avg cmc. Even 3 Karn build is at 2.43. If you treat EE as 2 drop in 3 karn build cmc is exactly the same. But I agree avg cmc aside the curve considerations are real. Having more 0-2 drops to cast doesn't help you cast 4 drops.
I mean in a general sense of the deck operating at all. Mono-w can ignore a blood moon and carry on with its plans whereas humans needs an artifact mana source to do anything. Maybe you're more content to just find a Quicksmith Rebel and switch gears than I understand.Quote:
I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).
Yeah I think the Durward build is very suboptimal for mono-w and his sideboard is imo egregiously bad.Quote:
I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.
Gotch'ya. I was comparing it to the 4x Karn list that has become popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.
Apologies, I'm only responding from my personal experience with the mono-w build and I had quickly shifted away from 4 Karn after 1 league probably for the same reasons you dislike him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
Caleb being Caleb probably explains some of the popularity surrounding his list. I think as-is it's inferior to the humans build.Quote:
This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.
Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.
I believe I'm skeptical of the humans build because I view tutoring answers as a negative (waste a tutor/mana on getting an answer) than a positive (have an answer to any problem). I should play with it more, but it's hard to pilot something that is at odds with my playstyle.
Once C18 comes out I will be back with the mono-w build at weeklies to play around with Magus of the Balance.
So I think Kaono has underlined something important in the conversation here.
For those not wanting to scroll back, Manroe referenced Caleb Durward being adamantly on Mono W, I expressed some skepticism directed at "The Mono White List", Kaono defended "Mono White" builds, and it became clear he was defending a rather different list than Caleb's "Mono White List", which he said he thought was very sub-optimal.
I think going forward, at least personally, I might want to amend my vocabulary here
Karn List -> (Mono W, Arifact Lands, 4x Karn)
Prelate White -> (Basic Plains, Karn / Prelate)
Humans -> (Confidant, Tutors, Unclaimed Territory)
UW -> (Sai, Trinket Mage)
UB -> (Confidant)
I'm currently a bit skeptical of The Karn List, which is what Caleb Durward was on to my most recent knowledge.
A "Prelate White" list, on the other hand, I don't share the same skepticism of.
Is there anyone here who is an adamant proponent of The Karn List who wants to speak to its advantages?
I haven't had any mana or tempo issues in the deck (EDIT: Of this sort. I have been Ghost Quartered to death), given that it's a Sol-Land + Opal + Petal deck that also turns on LED for practical use if need be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
That being said I'm not really trying to push it on other people. I have no problem with people being skeptical of my lists - if anything that generates useful criticisms - I just don't want to be undue-ly skeptical of other people's lists, because that's represents me being sub-optimal in a way that's harder to detect and correct on my own. :wink:
Also the Sideboard definitely needs a tune-up, and I'm currently experimenting with a couple Warping Wail, particularly because they do double duty in a Sneak/Show world where Arcane Artisan is the new toy.
Thanks for the criticisms and counter-arguments.
EDIT:
It's all good; thanks for clarifying. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaono
I love 4x Karn! I think CalebD should swap his two Horizon Canopy for another Karakas and a basic Plains, though. And I'm still running 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone slot when playing online, as the 5th Karn or a single card that double triggers Mentor.
Went undefeated at a $1K yesterday, had some interesting plays during the tourney:
- went off "low tide" drawing down to 4 cards left in library with Urza's Bauble before getting Salvagers needled. I had boarded out the Mentors and didn't bring in the Seals/Disenchant, so played a Karn and all the artifacts including Chalice on 2 for the shatter in his hand and a Ballista to take care of his two creatures. Won with a 20/20 construct with 2 cards left in the deck.
- upticked Karn in a single match more than I had upticked him in all my previous matches combined (FYI, you hardly ever uptick Karn, maybe this is why you guys don't get 4x Karn, you're going up too much). The matchup was Pox and putting a single, 0-cmc creature into play vs so many edicts and Ratchet Bombs seemed worthless. Karn singlehandedly won it for me. It was certainly nice being able to immediately replace each Karn he was actually able to remove.
- game 3 of a win-and-in match vs Sneak and Show, on the play, I went turn-1 Tomb, Petal, Opal, LED, Salvagers, Portuguese Lodestone Bauble to force 100 draws during his first upkeep. The confusion was so tasty. I highly recommend picking up a non-english Lodestone Bauble.
My sideboard for the tourney was:
- 3x Containment Priest
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist
- 3x Ensnaring Bridge
- 2x Tormod's Crypt
- 2x Seal of Cleansing
- 1x Disenchant
I don't understand the opinion of the 52-card deck with all 4-of's list being less consistent, or being worse vs counter magic. Turn-1 Chalice is something they have to deal with. Turn 1 or 2 Mentor is something they have to deal with (and is sometimes uncounterable, too). Turn 2 or 3 Karn is something they have to deal with. And if they manage to deal with all of these, they have nothing left and you just combo them afterward.
MonoR Stompy seems to be dropping meta-share and Eldrazi Stompy simply can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. Sure, there's a few other low-tier Chalice decks, but what're you going to do. You cannot convince me that Manic Vandal and untutorable Quicksmith Rebels over Disenchants vastly improve your Chalice/Trinisphere matchups. Fiery Confluence is the card that wrecks us the most anyway since it deals with any and every threat we could produce, same as humans.
Moving on, I was thinking about a Winter Orb or two in the board for Miracles, but I could see Balance Wizard being insane, and I want to try him out. "Deal with this uncounterable guy immediately, or you're going to be discarding 4 cards and sacrificing most your lands!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Can you describe your side in/out plan ?
You're definitely the ideal advocate in this thread for Karn than. On a side note though, I do like seeing Board the Weatherlight actually seeing competitive play, as I think it's definitely the most charming card that's come up in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
I can never claim to pilot anything perfectly, so I can't completely discount the "I'm not using Karn apprioriately" argument. I have used him a fair bit to success however, as has Kaono, and while I can't speak for him I do understand that his primary draw is a big dumb beater factory. I have won several games going T1 Chalice into T2 Karn, make a 4/4. T3 Make a 5/5, Opponent Scoops.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
So I do not suspect my issues with running 4 of him maindeck are because I'm simply to hesitant to have him crank out the constructs, and at least based on the sound of it that's not Kaono's (or even cosmiccoil's a few pages back) either.
This is two issues, so let's break them apart, and first deal with "consistency".Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
"Consistency" is a bit of a vague concept we like to throw around without rigorously defining, obviously. Consistently ... do what? Clearly by having all 4-of's you'll more consistently have them in hand. On the other hand my 4x Grindstone, Painter, Splinter Twin, Deceiver Exarch, Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike deck with no draw or tutors obviously meets our definition of "inconsistent", so it's more than just reducing the names on the table of cards we could draw, it's also the combinatorics of how those cards come together.
So here is how I see Karn (in his role as a downtick engine - he can also uptick, but as you stated that's not 'what you're using him for').
He's a huge slab of muscle. He's going to take some games you were going to lose on the margins to card quality, and turn them into wins. He's also going to take some games that were going to be close, and turn them into huge shut-outs in your favor. He often represents a pair of slow Reality Smashers, or better. No one here is calling him a "bad card" (again, except for maybe cosmiccoil a few pages back, but even that doesn't strike me as fair representation).
But when it comes to consistency, here is how I also see Karn - In this context, he's the 8th 4-Drop in a deck very susceptible to Wasteland / Mana Denial. He's Legendary. And on a hand without critical mass of Artifacts, those Masters of Etherium he's dropping can look much, much less impressive, assuming he even gets to survive to make the 2nd.
I'm not denying he's powerful, the "thing he does" is great; but simultaneously, I don't think there's a lot of question that with respect to how consistently Karn is able to perform "at his best", with just the variable nature of what else is there to back him up, I think the shorthand for Karn's effect on the deck is quite clearly +Power (Fair) - Consistency. There are more "bad hands" that you can put Karn in to make him look like a waste of a card than most other cards in the deck; there's just a quantifiably greater number of things you need to plug into him to get that output.
So, I think calling a 4x Karn build more "inconsistent" than other options is a fair assessment. That doesn't automatically make it worse (I'd rather have a tank 30% of the time than two twigs at 60% in most instances), but as to not "understanding how a deck of all 4-of's" can be seen as less consistent than something else, I don't think that's actually that hard to see, particularly when you're comparing them to tutors.
Okay, so now let's talk about "Counterability".
A basic reality about this deck is that it's a lot of air and a key selection of Critical Threats. Because of Cavern of Souls, sometimes your opponent is unable to trade their counterspell for your Critical Threat. Because he's not a Human, Karn simply increases the opportunities your opponent has to do this.
... That's it. It's not a deal-breaker, but I think it's a pretty simple criticism, so I don't really understand how you're failing to see this as a dimension of the card.
Leaning so heavily on Karn simply is making the deck more inconsistent and more susceptible to counter-magic. Again, that's not all it's doing, you are getting rewarded as well, but even if you think it's a worthwhile trade I believe you should recognize this, as your statement above wasn't an argument for his strengths, but simply a claim not to recognize his drawbacks.
Let's go back to context here.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
The argument was not "Oh man, Moon Stompy is a pushover if you do this". The argument was simply that running the Mono-White Karn List did not represent a notable improvement, as I was searching for the incentives to play Mono-White Karn in light of its drawbacks.
Based on the post above (You'll forgive me for not taking the time to go back to your stream archive to get your exact current list), you're on 3 Disenchant Effects, and 1 Plains. That's 3 answers to a Chalice on 0, and only 1 extra source of the mana to cast them under a Blood Moon. If I'm boarding in at least 2 Vandals and 1 answer off of Trinket Mage (a repeatable one, no less), than including tutors I'm running 7 answers to a Chalice on 0, most of which are completely unaffected by a Blood Moon.
Yes, you are putting yourself in a position to be significantly worse at answering an opposing Chalice. In fact, your density of Chalice answers is less than the opponent's presumable density of Chalice, and I'm representing more than double the density of answers that you are.
Again, this doesn't mean that you're list is "wrong" in the big picture, but the question at hand that you are addressing was me failing to find a Moon Stompy based incentive to run the 4-Karn build. I think that still stands, I think the build I'm running compared to the 4-Karn builds to is simply better at answering Chalice of the Void, and despite the fact "I can't convince you", I don't think that's a very hard defense to make.
I'm not saying it's a great match-up, but yes, I'd rather have 7 answers and a bunch of Red Beaters - some of which are not stopped by an opposing Ensnaring Bridge, than a Plains, 3 Disenchants, and 4 Karn producing tokens quite easily stopped by a Bridge. You're right, Fiery Confluence is still a wrecking ball against me; frankly, I think it's a pretty big wrecking ball period, but I'm not evaluating the match-up as a whole. I'm just trying to identify the incentives of playing the 4x Karn Caleb style list, and judging these topics in isolation to find them.
And I stand by the conclusion that the 4x Karn List is all the things you're saying you don't recognize. It's less consistent, it's more vulnerable to counterspells, and it is weaker against many of its bad matchups, such as Moon Stompy.
This doesn't mean it's worse; I can name strengths as well. You know what Disenchant is great against that Humans with ETB effects are not? The card Humility. Also Karn - still a powerhouse.
My skepticism comes from this - At a basic level, I feel like the 4x Karn lists are trying to be a Better Eldrazi deck (not than Eldrazi, I mean than the other Bomberman lists); it's trying to out-muscle a lot of the other decks. Trying to find the best way to do that is valid choice, and you'll definitely win some games you would have otherwise lost, but at the same time, devoting more of the deck to expensive, legendary Eldrazi-Factories comes with some very real drawbacks (obviously, otherwise decks list Eldrazi Stompy would be far more prevalent).
I think running Karn maindeck is justifiable. It's not what I currently do, but depending on which games you're trying to win at the cost of which other games, I think it's easy to make the argument for it. If all the games you might play exist on a 2 dimensional plane, adding Karn, much like any other card, is just saying I want to improve my numbers with the games over here in this corner, at the cost of making me weaker in these other games over here. My skepticism comes from the fact that I see the drawbacks that it presents as clear enough that when you're, let's say, at 2x or 3x Karn maindeck, and you say "What I need is more Karn. I really, really want to overpower and win these games over here", that the marginal returns you're getting seem to get more overshadowed by the points of weakness you're letting become more and more prominent that you might not be seeing.
What then fails to alleviate my skepticism however is not your profession of love for Karn (the card is clearly powerful), or your results (as stated earlier, we're all talking about the same Core deck here which is good, and you simply being a good player and playing well will often overshadow the small nuances of the last dozen spell slots in the deck as long as those choices are reasonable), but the fact that when the topic is put to you, rather than talking up the value of Karn's strengths, or contextualizing the drawbacks as minimal, you effectively state that you don't see the drawbacks or "understand" how people could claim they are there. ... which is exactly the scenario my skepticism is resting in.
So I thank you for your defense (and I love hearing that you're running a Board the Weatherlight), but respectfully I don't really think you really addressed any of Karn's strengths or weaknesses in any real detail, or did a lot to alleviate the Karnskepticism.
EDIT: However, I admittedly don't want to actually convince you as much as encourage a more rigorous defense, because I don't want you stop playing a Board the Weatherlight and making Historic a real characteristic in Legacy, which remains awesome.
I don't know when he'll log on next, but f7eleven streams on Twitch under the same name, so you could always just go check out his archived footage if you're looking for how he runs his list.Quote:
Originally Posted by cris_rj
I can see how I came off dickish without any real "meat" behind my claims, other than the fact that I've been on a heater with my version of the deck.
Sorry.
Also, it's really cool you've noticed the stream. I just started doing that, mostly because I wanted people to point out my mistakes (which has happened and I am glad for it). I don't think I'm setup for archives, unless that happens automatically, but I'll look into it.
Why I love Karn:
Karn doesn't just make slow beaters... he makes the biggest beaters. Constructs that out class Gurmag Angler and Goyf in combat. The more you -2 Karn, the better all the Constructs become because they all pump each other. When I'm on the Karn -2 plan I stop cracking baubles, I prioritize playing Ancient Dens over other lands, I go -2/-2 with a Karn then legend rule him and go -2 again.
Constructs eat Terminus's, Abrupt Decays, StP's, Ancient Grudges, Fatal Pushes, Disenchants.. all things that don't actually deal with Karn himself. Karn still gets to dig for value/combo pieces and/or make more Constructs.
Karn replaced Dark Confidant 1-for-1 and the manabase was updated accordingly, so Dark Confidant is what I am comparing Karn to in my head. Dark Confidant was AMAZING in the deck - your opponents (especially those unfamiliar with the list) would tilt themselves as you took 0 after 0 from his flips. But he ate those same Decays, StP's and Pushes while only chipping in for a little bit of damage... An untouched Bob certainly contributed to winning the game, finding missing combo pieces or fuel for Mentor, but an untouched Bob was rare, and he certainly never won games singlehandedly - the way Karn can/does.
Have you ever top decked a Karn and -1'd and cracked LED, using the WWW to cast a previously exiled Salvagers for the win? It feels so good!! It might never happen again, but casting stuff under Karn WITH Lion's Eye Diamond isn't too uncommon and neither is the opponent choosing to exile Salvagers on a Karn +1. I, of course, will also top deck Karn more often than those on less than 4x.
You know what Karn's +1 is really the best at though? A: Finding lands. So being a deck so susceptible to Wasteland makes Karn better, not worse, right? :tongue:
Reasons to not love Karn, I suppose:
You side him out vs unfair matchups. If we were playing vs more unfair matchups than fair, we'd probably rather have Dark Confidants (or Tangle Wire!). He comes out vs fair decks too if they're going wide - Constructs can be pretty lousy vs Elves, for instance.
It was lost on me that your Chalice answers are playable through Chalice + Moon. But if I'm facing a lot of Chalice + Moon then I'm putting this deck down until that stops happening. That said, my out to Chalice + Moon (other than the single basic) is, wait for it... Karn, lol.
Every non-Karn, non-Chalice spell in the deck is either likely never to be targeted with a counterspell (baubles/mana), or is a creature potentially unable to be countered due to Cavern. This means Karn is going to be countered more than the other spells in the deck. Cool. I mitigate this by playing the full set of Karn rather than replacing Karn with more potentially uncounterable spells. I'm arguing more for people to go up on Karns, not to add them to a deck that isn't playing any.
Board the Weatherlight is fun. But I still advocate a Lodestone Bauble over it when playing in paper.
No worries; it's all cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
I think it does? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Alright, here's the meat! You're saying Karn is resilient. That makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Karn doesn't die to plow, Confidant does (assuming no Chalice). They both die to bolt, but Karn gets value before that happens (again, no Chalice). Karn dies more often to Countermagic, but Confidant does sometimes too depending on the draw. Karn dies to pressure, but again, that's a sometimes and even then he gets value before he does. Karn gets to chuckle at an Abrupt Decay.
This is a good point in his favor.
No, but I did cast a Sanctum Prelate off of Karn + LED against Greg Mitchell on Bizarro Storm, so I've seen him turn on an LED similar to how the tutors do. It is a good synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Mmmm ... no. I think he's worse than Confidant in dealing with mana problems, for a couple reasons, so this argument I'm pretty sure you know this argument is a stretch. The resiliency one is still good though.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Well yeah, I wasn't so much talking myself up in the matchup as trying to eliminate the possible Karn incentives, and "against Blood Moon" is the traditional argument for making a deck mono-color.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
I don't think Karn-structs are where you really want to be against an Ensnaring Bridge, though.
Yeah, I picked up on the fact you specifically noted it as an MTGO replacement, which is almost certainly right, but a bit of a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
--
Anyways, highlighting Karn's resiliency did slightly lessen my Karn-skepticism, so thank you for that. It's not entirely gone, but you're giving acclaim to an aspect of Karn I could easily believe I'm under-valuing.
Also, this all was started by Monroe's claim on the last page that Caleb Durward was "deadset" on Mono-White, and sussing out what was so critically important about the choice. Given that as I write this, Caleb Durward is streaming with a UW build that at first glance seems to look much like Sean Brown's Blue Sai list, I'm currently reading that assertion as actually more Monroe's characterization than Caleb's.
This is pretty awesome that he is doing U/W. Maybe he changed his mind!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
Possibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Alternatively, he could just be continuing to experiment with what amounts to the cards outside the core of an archetype that does not have a plethora of data in a currently still adapting metagame. :tongue:
I don't have a guide for multiple matchups, just some common sense things I've been doing:Quote:
Originally Posted by cris_rj
- Karn comes out vs unfair decks and the appropriate hate comes in.
- Ballista gets shaved (when I say "shave" I mean cutting one or two copies) when he's not good on his own, like vs Miracles.
- Chalice comes out vs other Chalice decks, obv.
- I'll shave Urza's Baubles when I need to find room.
- I'll cut a land when I need to find room and they don't have Wastelands - a Karakas or Cavern if one is not relevant in the matchup.
- I almost never cut Lodestone Bauble since anyone can bring in Surgical or Needles.
- I don't shave Chalices vs decks you might not think they're great against (BUG w/ Decays, Grixis w/ KCommands) because they'll be bringing in Surgical/Needle for sure.
- I don't like having Chalice in my deck vs D&T. They don't have cantrips or Snapcasters, and I'd rather work my way through/around their StP's than let them flicker a Chalice.
- When I bring in Bridges vs Reanimator/Show and Tell, I prioritize Chalice on 2 for their Abrades, Echoing Truths, Wear//Tear (Tidespout Tyrant hoses this, but they have 8 2-drop reanimation spells and 4 1-drop reanimation spells).
- On MTGO only, I'll cut the Salvagers and LED's when they've not scooped to the combo in earlier games and I don't have the time on my clock to click through another combo kill.
I've been thinking about cutting Mentors vs RUG Delver - 2x Sulfur Elemental is becoming the standard. I'll be trying it next time I play the matchup
I've been boarding very little vs Miracles, but have noticed this matchup is more dependant on the skill of the Miracles player. A very good Miracles player is hard to beat. I'm going to try 1-2 Winter Orbs in the board next league. I also want to test bringing in all the Ethersworn Canonists vs them. I don't know if that's good or not, but I'll find out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by f7eleven
Do you always side in seal of cleaning/disenchant in 2/3 match ? I saw you use 4 cannonists in sb. They are good only in storm/elf meta, right ?
Disenchants don't always come in, no. I don't like them vs Sneak and Show for instance. They're for Chalices, Needle effects, and Equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by cris_rj
Storm is more popular online than IRL, but it's not a good matchup. You need to have SOMETHING to slow them down (Chalice or Canonist) and then win quickly. If you're on Prelate, that's also good vs them, but harder to cast turn-1. The Tormod's Crypts can come in vs ANT (for PiF and Cabal Ritual) but they're worthless vs TES. I have played my own Chalice on 0 vs Storm at least a few times - not something I'd recommend defaulting to, but look for situations where you can get away with it.
As I mentioned, I'm going to try out bringing in the Canonists vs Miracles and try to figure out if they have enough impact vs Snapcaster.
I'll stream a league run tonight at 7pm EDT if you anyone wants to come point out my misplays!
Okay, I've been doing a lot of itterration with the sideboard since the banning and I'm finally hitting something that's feeling really good again.
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble
4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventors' Fair
SB:
3x Quicksmith Rebel
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Manic Vandal
2x Warping Wail
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Containment Priest
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surge Node
1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Warping Wail
Warping Wail has seemed fantastic. It kills Thalia and Revoker. It counters Show and Tell and exiles Arcane Artisan. It answers Terminus and Infernal Tutor. It's good against Reanimator, Infect, the list goes on. It's incredibly easy to cast and it gives us access to a whole category of effect that the opponent previously did not have to respect. It can even deny a Ponder or a Preordain when that's the best line. It hits the match-ups we want to hit, gains extra points in many other popular match-ups entirely outside of what it's included for, and even has an additional mode I've yet to even use if we want to get creative with our lines or pump some monks and make a body.
Card is great.
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Venser is actually an old inclusion from an earlier version of the list. His primary motivation for inclusion is that he's an easily tutorable answer that is amazingly flexible in the Reanimator / Show and tell matchups, but he's all around a great card. He let's us (regularly uncounterably) interact with whatever we want on a critical turn. He adds resilience to almost every deck-drawing combo turn, not only be holding him on hand on the opponent's last remaining turn, but if necessary we can even put our 48 upkeep draw triggers on the stack, sack the LED we combo'd with for blue mana, draw into him, cast him off the floating mana + 1 (or a 2nd LED) and bounce a permanent while also clogging up the board. Hypothetically you could even bounce a Tutor, hold priority, sack LED, play the tutor exactly off the LED mana and use him to transform an LED into the other card of your choice, but I've never actually done that one.
The reason it's taken me so long to include him again is that reasonably speaking he's taking the place of War Priest of Thune in this sideboard plan. The problem with War Priest of Thune has been that it's usually coming in against decks that might not land the relevant enchantment you're afraid of, or are playing with the types of enchantments that War Priest just isn't going to be doing enough against. (RIP/Helm decks with Back to Basics, etc).
Adding the increased presence of Sneak/Show and how powerful Venser is in that matchup, War Priest is out and Venser is in.
Still suspicious of Surge Node and there's a small chance that Karn should be a 3rd Sanctum Prelate, but as it stands I'm really liking the current 15.
I tried out Warping Wail in my sideboard last weekend. I've always liked the card, but it's power level was a bit underwhelming for me, despite its versatility. Also had some issues with colorless mana sources (monoW only plays 11-12). I'm actually cutting the 4th City and 4th Cavern for two more white sources.
Although I never thought Karn was a poor decision, I think its stock has improved greatly with the uptick in DnT. My primary problem with it is that it helps us play a "fair" game, which I didn't think was that big of a problem in the former, Grixis-delver dominated meta. Now that DnT is around to disrupt not only our combo, but also our fair game with cards like Jitte (which is pretty effective at killing Mentor), I find it to be much more important to have another must-answer threat that can clog up the ground. I am currently running two and going up to three. I think a counterable four-drop that isn't fantastic in multiples diminishes the incentive to run a playset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
@cosmiccoil
I've always seen Karn as a viable option in some amount, but I'm also with you on being more open to 2 - 3 Karn than 4 on those types of lists - although I'm open to being wrong. As far as D&T goes, that was the incentive I took in going up to 3 Quicksmith Rebels, as they can also machine-gun down every single creature in that deck Mom or no and are harder than most to pin down under a Revoker (admittedly not the Batterskull token, but I'm categorizing that as a job for Artifact removal rather than Creature). It's really just game 1 that I feel noticeably unfavored against. I'm not running any main-board Vandals, Chalice becomes an enormous liability in the face of Flickerwisp, and comboing under a Thalia that has not been killed is mana-neutral meaning that Monks are the only spout that remain infinite. Overall I'm feeling (Weak)(Strong)(Strong) against the deck, which feels good enough to me and has usually fell in my favor, but I have certainly lost the match at least once to some unmeasured ratio of better-player/variance before so I could easily see people moving more towards lists like Kaono's as a rational choice if they're in the market for optimizing their pre-board matchup against D&T.
Just gauging opinions here, post banning I feel very strongly that our best matchup is essentially gone and also that our worst matchups are beginning to resurface more. More fast combo, more show and tell and more graveyard strategies and hate have been giving me a really hard time as of late. What do you all think?
I don't generally consider combo to be bad matchups on my current build (list above -Karn +Prelate); I'm usually happy to see them. I played against a lot of Storm yesterday, and playing "11-Chalice" (3 Prelate, 4 Chalice, 2 Recruiter, 2 Trinket) plus 2x Warping Wail was fine. Not particularly worried about S&S either, especially with Venser. Reanimator is a little harder, but Containment Priest + Prelate / Chalice on 2 tends to get there. You're also a fast combo deck yourself, unless you're focusing more on the fair plan than the combo plan. Belcher would be bad in theory, but honestly I'm never really running into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Is it possible you're just on a build where you're cutting consistency and card velocity for fair powerhouses like Karn, and having trouble getting the sideboard to function well in this context?
I am certainly not advocating turning bomberman into "Karn Stompy." Its another threat, of which there can be many other different threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
I don't feel like DnT is especially unfavored, but its certainly not a great matchup, which concerns me given its likely prevalence in paper events going forward. I plan to play U/W at GPRichmond and expect to play DnT at least three times on the first day because of a variety of factors (it's tier-1, price, porting from modern, et cetera). I am sure with a bunch more interaction like Quicksmith Rebels the matchup turns considerably, but it's not an option in my current color choices.
I agree on the first count (that we lost one of our best matchups) but not on the second (weakness to combo). There is always a trade-off between being "fair" and being a combo deck ourselves. Karn makes us fairer, while a bunch of tutors help against combo. You just need to choose what you want to lose to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
Because we are already a fairly good "fair" deck with Salvagers, I think it is worth allocating almost everything in your board to fighting combo.
How has the Sai been working out for you in UW, or are you not running him?Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmiccoil
Wonderfully--as a two-of. Flying blockers buy a bunch of time to combo off. It's also a good reminder of how good flying is in general in the format. The fact that it triggers off of casting any artifact is awesome, because it means that even putting ballista into play helps. Plus the colorless-nature of the thopters helps a bunch against DnT. Sai + Karnstructs makes for some very hefty tokens. It also means Marit Lage decks are way easier to handle. So, yeah, he's been great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rationalist
The 8th Bauble is beginning to feel like too much air. Experimenting with replacing it with a 3rd Recruiter.