[Primer] UB Death's Shadow

Maindeck pop is really bad in Delver unless you can reliably pivot to being a burn deck, which you can't really do with this list (compared to e.g. a UR delver list which would probably have multiple chain lightnings instead of cards like thoughtseize or snuff out)

This is by far the deckbuilding article I have linked people to more than any other and I still have to keep doing it:

https://articles.starcitygames.com/p...ughtseize-you/

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A common pitfall that I see among newer deckbuilders is a draw towards B/R decks that feature both a lot of burn and a lot of Thoughtseize effects. This is natural because black and red are a likely pair according to Magic’s flavor and those are among the most iconic effects that each color has to offer.

However, the reality is that Thoughtseize is exactly what a burn deck does not want. The strength of burn is that it’s difficult for the opponent to interact with through ordinary means, so if you add Thoughtseize to the deck in the place of a card that would otherwise contribute to your game plan, you’re really just giving your opponent exactly what they want—a way to trade off cards against you.

In my experience, such decks are excellent at getting the opponent down to five life but are not the best at actually winning games.

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Winter Orb is a really feast-or-famine card in the sense that some situations it's great and sometimes it either does little/nothing or it actually harms you more than the opponent.
You should realize that this kind of delver/daze/fow etc strategy that you are using yourself and recognize Orb can be good in is one of the most popular decks in legacy, and therefore a large number of your opponents will be also playing a deck that Orb doesn't help against. You probably don't want to play a card like this in your maindeck.

Cephalid Coliseum is a cute idea but I think it will just hurt you in the long run more by not being a dual land than the draw-3 ability will help.

Thank you both for the feedback!

Winter Orb: Excellent point that other Delver decks can consider running this card in their sideboards; casting it is likely going to hurt us both about equally, making it a blank draw in those matchups. Against something like the old BUG Deliver lists those might be fine but the current UR lists are a different deck entirely. I'll move these to the sideboard to bring in against decks like Jund and Maverick. This also lets me replace Snuff Out with Dismember in the maindeck.

Price of Progress: Comparing this to Flame Rift makes both cards look pretty bad. Although it's still an interesting card I'll cut it for now but keep it in mind.

Lands: If I put two Brazen Borrower into the maindeck it makes even more sense to run a single basic Island. I admit, I forgot about the various 8-Moon type decks.

Thanks for the link to the great article about Thoughtseize, especially in the context of Price of Progress in this deck. I'm dabbling with Death's Shadow coming from a BUG Delver and Jund background, which are much more aggro-control decks rather than this more aggro-tempo archetype.

Spell Pierce versus Force of Negation: I'll admit, this is because I don't own any FoN and they're relatively expensive (I'm also short a Volcanic Island).

It's not very unique or exciting, but these changes (-2 Orb, -2 Price of Progress, -2 Snuff Out, -1 Cephalid Coliseum, +2 Brazen Borrower, +3 Dismember, +1 Preordain, +1 Island) do look like they will streamline the deck.

At that point is it worth running red for Bolts and Pyroblasts? Maybe I should be straight UB like the generally-accepted standard version of the deck, or splashing green (for which I do have a Tropical Island).

I'll rework the sideboard too to incorporate Winter Orb and pick some less expensive removal.

Brazen Borrower does heavy lifting in the matchups where it is good.

I'm partial to the green splash for Berserk, but not positive the splash continues to be worth it with Oko banned.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Spell Pierce versus Force of Negation: I'll admit, this is because I don't own any FoN and they're relatively expensive

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Spell Pierce is probably fine for now. Being a Thoughtseize + Force of Will deck does a lot against combo, and without worrying about Oko in the format you don't have to have the extra Forces to stay on tempo. In the Oko era you would have to make sure to get on-board yourself, using all of your mana, and still have a Force up for Oko. Long story short: I don't know how many maindeck Forces are correct anymore. It was standard to play 6-7 in the Oko/Arcanist era, but I'm not sure it's correct anymore (despite me already saying otherwise.) Regardless, plan to pick up some Force of Negations for tournament play if you are going to do paper events in the future.

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It's not very unique or exciting, but these changes (-2 Orb, -2 Price of Progress, -2 Snuff Out, -1 Cephalid Coliseum, +2 Brazen Borrower, +3 Dismember, +1 Preordain, +1 Island) do look like they will streamline the deck.

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We are just going on previous knowledge of what worked; I don't think it's wrong to experiment or put your own spin on a deck based on playstyle or metagame. This forum is so you know what others have done, whether it worked or not, and how to move forward. Truthfully, I'm always struggling on how to splash red in this deck because I love Lightning Bolt, Pyroblast and Abrade are awesome sideboard cards, and it naturally feels like it serves the aggressive plan. It doesn't always pan out that way, but that doesn't mean that the fundamental approach is wrong. Timing is everything.

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At that point is it worth running red for Bolts and Pyroblasts? Maybe I should be straight UB like the generally-accepted standard version of the deck, or splashing green (for which I do have a Tropical Island).

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You can always make an argument for a red splash to fight blue mirrors. In the Top-Miracles era red was splashed *only* for Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast, because it was so important to fight the mirrors. What makes the decision sticky is Thoughtseize, which does so much heavy lifting for the deck that it can be possible to avoid the mana-base instability. Thoughtseize isn't a perfect answer for anything in the format, but it's useful against more decks than Pyroblast.

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I'll rework the sideboard too to incorporate Winter Orb and pick some less expensive removal.

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The card you're looking for is Plague Engineer; you can play it under Thalia and it does a ton of work against D&T, Elves, Goblins, and a slew of other decks as well. It's easier to cast because it only needs 2B, so that's why it's better than Fire Covenant. The best removals are Fatal Push, Snuff Out, Dismember, Plague Engineer, Toxic Deluge, Drown in the Loch, and Liliana's Triumph.

In general, you want complete control over your life total. Cards that are conditionally awesome (like Price of Progress) open you up to variance. Street Wraith does the same job but instead of being a conditional removal it's an unconditional card draw, every time. If you're looking for cool tricks the aforementioned Berserk is a good one, but also Apostle's Blessing is a great option. I've always wanted to mess around with a singleton Tainted Strike as a pseudo-Berserk in black, but it doesn't provide trample and if you don't have a 10/10 unblocked Shadow it literally does nothing (a 9/9 Shadow outclasses most threats already, you don't need infect to shrink opponent's chump blockers.)

I've also messed around with Dark Confidant, a card that on it's surface looks tailor-made for Shadow decks. It doesn't pan out that way simply because again, you don't have control over your top-decks unless you have Ponder/Brainstorm, and if you have Ponder/Brainstorm you should be digging into ways to win already. Confidant could be a sideboard card if we ever decide to board out Force of Wills, but even then it might do too much damage, or too little, to make it worth playing with Shadow. Another pet card of mine is Bitterblossom, something I'm always trying to shoe-horn into my decks. In general it's a very powerful card against certain matchups that could see some play again.

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?

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Not enough room to run Shadow and Dreadnought. The card that unites them does not currently exist (land or 2-3cmc not-creature effect that says for every life gained by you is life lost by opponent), to be combined with Orzhov Charm and Arguel's Blood Fast. This is not a viable mash-up at this time.

There is no Dreadstill or Stiflenought list in UB that can post a higher winrate than UBw Landstill.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?

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I tried it for a little while, back before covid derailed my local legacy scene. It was certainly fun, but as Fox eludes, it's hard to get everything in there. I ended up trying several different routes: Dark Confidant, cutting Delver, cutting Daze, etc. It got derailed into an Arclight Phoenix/Shadow discussion for a little bit at the end, too. This is a link to the theory-crafting/discussion:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...8-Death-Nought

Hey thanks for sharing your experiences. I was going to replace Gurmag with Noughts (and not play the full set, likely 2x) as support, either for the early ultimatum off stifle or to upgrade to a trampler from just a big fat vanilla guy. I don't want it to dominate the build, just to slide in as a slight spin-off.

I like Stifle as a tempo play in Delver even without a secondary use; it is because I am old and when Scourge came out I liked the gotcha aspect (it also won me a match when I played UG madness vs. a fully powered worldgorger vintage list in an event back when mana burn was a thing, which has admittedly solidified my love of the card even with all evidence to it being subpar).

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The issue is that making StifleNoughts isn't really a gameplan. You're just reinforcing a primary weakness of Shadow to Chalice, while Dreadnought tech [which you lack dedication to support] ignores Chalice.

Shadow's mana puts you in a terrible spot b/c the single best card UB has vs Chalice is Karn (that you can't cast this reliably), which can then let you wish for a SB Dreadnought. The deficits you're trying to cover are best approached by being BUG Shadow with around 2 Berserk, 2 Library, and 2 Trophy (you're no longer playing Street Wraith).

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Originally Posted by Fox

The issue is that making StifleNoughts isn't really a gameplan. You're just reinforcing a primary weakness of Shadow to Chalice, while Dreadnought tech [which you lack dedication to support] ignores Chalice.

Shadow's mana puts you in a terrible spot b/c the single best card UB has vs Chalice is Karn (that you can't cast this reliably), which can then let you wish for a SB Dreadnought. The deficits you're trying to cover are best approached by being BUG Shadow with around 2 Berserk, 2 Library, and 2 Trophy (you're no longer playing Street Wraith).

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Right, I agree it isn't a game plan, it is just a deviated list for the sake of a favored strategy, not a better strategy. It seems to me that bug is similarly flawed as it also deviates in a fashion and opens the plan up to different issues such as color denial and a less stable mana base in general. I get that berserk may be better, but isn't delver, and DSD in particular just a bit weak to Chalice in general and the concensus just that you counter the chalice or lose to a fast clock (ignoring the luck draw of Decay)? Thanks for your response! I'm enjoying talking about magic again now that the bans have happened!

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The difference is that BUG Shadow has a very methodical approach to Counterbalance decks. You turn the Stifle and Wastlands onto exposing Tundra to board, and then you murder 2 basic Plains with Trophy....and then it gets worse for them, as up to two otherwise unplayable Needle can come in from the SB....and now your opponent can get into a ton of trouble if they fail to fight over aggro-Needle on maybe Vista/Tarn/Strand.

Keep that wheel turning as you add 2 Decay to SB, meeting up with maindeck Cling vs Sevinne's. Youre already bad against DnT, and they [Counterbalance] play Mentor - it's time for 2-3 Dread of Night again. Make them trade blue cards for anything but your blue cards, choose what doesn't get to resolve, and they will eventually die to whatever bereft of white mana.

This is where most shadow lists fail. They can't attack basic Plains, so they can't ever dictate the direction of a game. They just trade their dudes [only wincon] into stacks of white cards and Snapcasters, and then find themselves up against a deck with more blue cards.

That is really solid strategy, I didn't think of it from this perspective. Thanks for clearing that up for me. You have saved me a few hundred in purchases lol. I'm back to the drawing board for my "fun" blue list.

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That is theorycrafting way too far up the ass, "colourscrew opp off white" is just not sensible. In an ideal world it might sound nice (just like surgicaling all of RUG tropicals or whatever).

The idea that you could reliably trophy 2 plains is already nonsense (2? copies of trophy vs how many plans + fetchlands your opp has, also the act of casting the first trophy on a plains assuming your opp has a 2nd one is just spending 2 mana and a card to do absolutely nothing) but consider that the umbrella of "blue plow deck" right now still includes Uro decks with Abundant Growth / Prism / Carpet. Trying to cut the opp off casting their white cards is not a winning gameplan.

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There is no Dreadstill or Stiflenought list in UB that can post a higher winrate than UBw Landstill.

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I still basically agree with this because dreadnought is basically a huge clunker in present-day (stifle as a card on its own merits is maybe _okay_ right now), so it needs a shell with a lot of support for it for it to be even remotely playable, and not just "I want to play stifle in my Ux delver deck oh I guess I get to play a 1 mana 12/12 too now yay"

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

That is theorycrafting way too far up the ass, "colourscrew opp off white" is just not sensible. In an ideal world it might sound nice (just like surgicaling all of RUG tropicals or whatever).

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Fox is quite an expert in UWx control so he's probably not wrong here in seeing how UW loses that matchup.

Normally UW is heavily favored because Snap-Plow + Terminus is way more answers than Shadow has threats, and UW can happily grind out the counter war and card advantage vs Shadow. Shadow will win some out of variance, but overall it'll be really hard to stick a win condition and get there. You're fighting an uphill battle. The way UW loses is if they can't cast their white cards, then they lose their removal and some win conditions and Shadow's threats can safely get through for the kill.

Given that UW is very slow with few win conditions, you're playing a long grindy game and it may actually be feasible to slow roll and take every white source off the board first than to go balls-out Shadow and walk into a loss. Some builds will only have 2 Plains + 1 Tundra + 1 Karakas, they will normally play to have at least 2 white sources in play (if both Plains are out to dodge Wasteland then Trophy is strong), while they probably have 4 Flooded Strand to hit with Pithing Needle. Their manabase is blue-heavy and built to beat Wasteland/Blood Moon/B2B but not destruction of basics. It won't work in every game, but it may be a more winning strategy than just playing out Shadows into removal.

But yeah, throwing Dreadnought in as a random card here seems bad. Stiflenought is very marginal these days unless you can support it with a full plan (including Scroll of Fate). It's not good enough to splash Dreadnought and get 3-for-1d by Snapcaster into Plow.

On a semi-related note, discussing good cards against the blue control/midrange decks, brings me back around to a pet card: Bitterblossom. I always liked the way it really pressured the slower blue decks and its decent against Marit Lage by making perpetual blockers.

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Originally Posted by FTW

it may actually be feasible to slow roll and take every white source off the board first than to go balls-out Shadow and walk into a loss... It won't work in every game, but it may be a more winning strategy than just playing out Shadows into removal.

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Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

In reality there are other choices available (e.e grind better with card advantage options like hymn / planeswalkers / infernal contract etc). Mr Safetys Bitterblossom idea is also in that space but I don't like that card because its too blank in situations where you are already successfully damaging yourself, weak vs plague engineer etc

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

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The argument was the opposite: you make more cards in the SB live because you can board in slots for other matchups like Pithing Needle (on Strand/Vista) on top of the other anti-control cards you'd bring in, and that gives you more overall axes to pressure them. Bring in Hymns too, of course. Attack their hand and attack their land, instead of just attacking their hand (which they can dodge with Snapcasters and Brainstorms).

Infernal Contract is interesting.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

In reality there are other choices available (e.e grind better with card advantage options like hymn / planeswalkers / infernal contract etc). Mr Safetys Bitterblossom idea is also in that space but I don't like that card because its too blank in situations where you are already successfully damaging yourself, weak vs plague engineer etc

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I agree with your assessment of Bitterblossom. I somehow keep forgetting that Hymn to Tourach is a card...Veil of Summer has really warped how I view discard. Thoughtseize is at least the same mana-cost as Veil of Summer, but getting blown out playing a Hymn into a Veil is a real feel-bad. Liliana the Last Hope seems really good out of the board, as does Narset, Parter of Veils.

New Idea

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Dark Confidant
4 Street Wraith

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

2 Cling to Dust
1 Force of Negation
3 Removal Spells

- I might be off-base here but I think the DHA furore was a sign that maybe Bob was/is a bit underrated
- Cling gives you a way to gain life against more aggressive UR variants as well as control Uros and balance the increased lifeloss from 4x confidant
- Maindeck Cling gives you a way to use your own graveyard because you probably don't want to ding yourself off Bob for 6+ with your own Angler/Whale
- Mix of removal spells used to be 1x Dismember / Push / Snuff but for example Snuff doesn't kill Strix which is a bit more popular now or kill your own Bob and it flips for 4 damage off Bob so this can be tweaked a bit
- Not enthusiastic about Delverless builds with Hymns main because Uro/Veil still seem too popular
- No idea if 4x Bob 4x Wraith is insanity but at least I want to try it

4 Bob + 4 Wraith + 5 Force is insanity.

There's no real payoff for Wraith without Reanimate or Angler, so it's just a bad Gitaxian Probe that doesn't play well with Bob. Probe would be amazing there. Maybe it's worth cutting Wraith. That frees up 7 slots.

2 Dismember? Unlike Snuff Out, it plays better with Bob, it can hit black creatures, and you have more control over the lifeloss. There's not much Snuff kills that Dismember doesn't (and you have maindeck Cling for Uro).

Other slots could include 2 Cabal Therapy (add to discard plan and give you an out to Bob), maybe 1-2 Reanimate, 1 Push, maybe a Borrower.

Ten slots at 5 mana is not good. I lost multiple games playing Bobs + Forces due to blind flips, and I wasn't even playing Street Wraiths. Once you decide to push for card advantage with Dark Confidant instead of velocity with Street Wraith you really need to evaluate your mana curve. Even Daze becomes suspect when you're drawing extra lands but can't play them out. If you want Dark Confidant I think you need to make a couple of fundamental changes: cut the street wraiths, take a hard look at your mana curve, and look into playing at least 1-2 Cling to Dust in your maindeck to help manage your life total.

Alternatives to cutting wraith:

Glint-Sleeve Siphoner draws cards much slower but lets you play wraiths and Gurmag angler. You can also draw many more cards before you die. The deck also sorely lacks evasion without delver.

Tasigur, the golden fang you are already very weak against plow (and thus karakas) decks. Extra grind power, speed, and dodges decay.

I once reanimated my opponent's Bob at FNM. Flipped Gurmag at 7 life. I won't be playing Bob, it lacks the controlled lifeloss this deck seems to demand.

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Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?

Mindblade Render is almost exactly the same as DHA... but it needs to connect. Gets pseudo haste in multiples.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?

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Failwhale is bad....like to the point that you should delve 3-4 lands on the first one to begin to have a chance to untap with it. Tasigur is technically better since the value is unaffected by summoning sickness at 5 mana [which Shadow can't really reach]. Take the win against Goyf with Gurmag and use the rest of the yard for Cling.

I don't think even Tasigur is worth playing. I think the only alternative threat we could consider is Scourge of the Skyclaves, but I haven't seen it do a whole lot since it was printed.

I think the grindy cards you want out of the sideboard are Liliana, the Last Hope, Narset, Parter of Veils, Bitterblossom, and even Search for Azcanta. The aforementioned Infernal Contract is also pretty decent. I'd love to try Search for Azcanta, because it actually *adds* a land to the deck. It isn't ideal with the high activation cost, but it could possibly be good. I'm also eyeballing Collective Brutality again because it should have some relevance against the threats being played again.

Here's my sideboard that I think will be a good general approach:

1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Plague Engineer
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Bitterblossom


I play 2x Brazen Borrower maindeck, so that's why it isn't in the sideboard.

The problem with Scourge is it looks at both players, so it doesn't fit as well into the Shadow plan if you haven't been able to turn a Shadow or Delver sideways yet. It's win-more. Scourge might work in Red Death, the RB Shadow deck with burn cards.

Lili, Narset and Brutality all look good out of the board.

Is Castle Locthwain unplayable in the SB? Maybe it's just a bad version of Azcanta. But it's uncounterable, dodges Decay, and gives mana right away. The decks you need it against probably don't run Wasteland, so it could be difficult for them to interact with this card.

Castle Locthwain is a good idea, one I hadn't picked up on yet. I was mostly looking for enchantments, which in general are problematic for most opponents in legacy outside of specifically Abrupt Decay. The life loss is attractive in Castle Locthwain, but if we are sandbagging cards in hand against mid-range opponents then it could possibly hurt too much. I suppose we could cut a Street Wraith post-board to squeeze in the extra land.

What I like about SfA is that it will always be doing something valuable; smoothing top decks, feeding gurmag/reanimate, and if it flips in a long game and we can activate it (Wasteland actually makes mana at this point) then it could really pressure mid-range opponents. Sylvan Library is the closest analogy, and SFA is definitely *not* Sylvan Library. I would like to avoid the green splash to keep mana solid.

Wrt to some of the discussion here:
- Glint Sleeve Siphoner smoked me in standard a bunch of times, but not being able to play it with 1+ energy ready to go from Aether Hub or Attune makes it much worse, and with no other energy source in the deck (Harnessed Lightning etc) you are only drawing an extra card once every 2 turns. If it was just 1B 2/1 Menace Ophidian that dinged you for 1 when you drew a card with it then I think it would probably be good or at least worth trying

Mindblade Render is ~almost~ that card. No evasion is a little bit disappointing as well as only having 1 power, but 3 toughness is nice vs e.g. Pfire and Plague Engineer. I think this is at least worth considering in the "Bob slot". Compared to Bob, not getting an extra card in your upkeep is slightly worse (because you can't e.g. play an extra removal spell before attacking), it does actually have to connect, and "draw a card" is worse than "bob flip into hand" because of Hullbreacher/Narset, but the lifeloss is more manageable.

Tasigur is too embarrassing vs Karakas and too hard to activate (like in the matchups where you want that activated ability you really don't want it coming attached to a thing that dies to plow)

Agree with FTW comment about scourge not making sense in UB (you need more turn 1 threats and/or burn spells)

Castle Lockthwain is an okay idea the problem is that spending effectively 4mana per turn is a lot for a delver deck. You also have to be a bit careful about whether the playstyle of the card makes sense with your overall gameplan (for example if you just want to throw all your threats into your opponent's defense and then use Castle to reload, it can be good, but if you want to play 1 Delver and then sit back with a full hand of daze/brainstorm/fow etc then it can cost too much life to use effectively. Overall I don't think the idea is that bad but compared to how the card sees play in e.g. Mono Black Aggro in Pioneer the opportunity cost of putting it in the deck is a lot higher (you can just play 4 maindeck in the normal manabase in Pioneer and it's cool, compared to considering it for a relatively-more-valuable sb slot). If it's going to be a card you are boarding in vs slow matchups to become more grindy then you have to start considering if it's a better use of slot than Infernal Contract or Lili Last Hope etc which I feel like it probably isn't. Azcanta has mainly similar problem (spending all your mana to draw 1 card per turn on turn 4+ is probably not the right way to beat grindy decks in legacy when you are playing delver)

Collective brutality is good if you expect to play against exactly Burn. Against other creature decks it's not good enough at killing things (sprite dragon goyf whale shadow etc all too large) you never want to risk escalating it into a daze, against DNT don't want to try to spend 2 mana for disfigure. Against combo/control don't want to spend 2 mana for bad duress. Maybe it's decent vs elves? Where -2-2 and discard sorcery is actually not bad for 2 mana. But yeah the utility offered is not particularly worthwhile I don't think

Yeah, Brutality's main use would be for burn/RUG Delver to provide a slight cushion for life total and to provide reach. Providing reach is likely the best mode of Brutality. You summarized it succinctly: it does several things, but none of them well. I don't mind the 2-mana Duress against combo decks at all, especially followed by a t1 Delver and having a Daze in hand. The other option is Hymn to Tourach, which is what I am currently playing in the sideboard, but Brutality seems like it could be a decent role-player. I like it against Moon Stompy, too, especially if you are dedicated to a basic Swamp (I am for sure, there is historically a lot of Moon Stompy in my local metagame, whenever that gets going again...) It kills a lot of Goblins and can swing races, which is what Brutality really needs to do. It's all theory-crafting honestly, it could still be too narrow for legacy.

Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?

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Truehero has been playing a list like this (just off the top of my head, I can't remember the SB)

13 UB source
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
2 Reanimate
2 Force of Negation
2 Snuff Out
2 Drown In the Loch

4 Wraith
4 Shadow
3 Angler

Idk if I would play exactly this list with 3 Angler or only 13 coloured sources but:
1. Everything I have said in the past about not liking Delver in this deck is still true
2. Usually the replacement for Delver has been some kind of Hymn card to help grind (plus JVP for the synergy or whatever)
3. Hymn is still pretty bad right now I think because Uro is still a popular card
4. So trying to be really lean and "go under" with stifle like this definitely has some appeal at the moment

Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.

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Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

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Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.

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Well on one hand if you don't have delver providing a clock then your opponent might have time to draw more lands to stabilize, but if you do have Stifle instead of Delver then that's hopefully the tool you're using to prevent your opp from getting those 3-4 land for Uro and turning the corner on you

Because of how this deck doesn't have reach from burnspells and how uro turns the corner so hard I would much rather try to assemble the plan of Stifle + Shadow or Stifle + Angler rather than Delver + Shadow or Delver + Angler, but you basically already know my position on this

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Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

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It doesn't necessarily play well with the sequence of curving thoughtseize into it and the way the deck is built playing cards like Snuff Outs instead of Bolts also means that you can't be as flexible with making tokens as you might want to be. There also aren't as many card draw spells as like Miracles or Whitefaces Esper with Mentor and Predict / One Mind or UR decks with Pyromancer having a bunch of Preordains. If it wasn't for the meta consideration of Plague Engineer I would say this is just a worse TNN (and even then Engineer is pretty good against this because you just name Pest and it cleans up all the tokens)

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

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How is this better than Bitterblossom? BB doesn't die to Bolt, is much harder to remove as an enchantment, costs 1 mana less, provides evasion, and requires no further investment.

Boshnroll just did a stream on a delver-less Shadow deck that focused on Stifle and interaction. It didn't fare very well, beating Goblins and Maverick pretty handily but losing hard to Moon Stompy (typical), RUG Delver (close games),and a 3rd deck I can't remember. I think the concept of less Delvers but more Gurmags/Reanimates (he played a 3rd Gurmag and 2 Reanimates) is fine in theory, but they don't pressure from t1 like Delver does. Stifle was very lackluster during the whole league. I just don't think it fits in decks other than RUG Delver, honestly. Stifle/Daze/Wasteland is awesome when you have Delver and Bolts, you disrupt and then kill them before they can recuperate. Shadow is similar in that regard with a big 4/4 or 5/5, but without Bolts in can sometimes struggle to get across the finish line. What I took away from the league was that maybe it's time to re-evaluate a red splash for Shadow decks, for Bolt alone. I don't think I would ever cut Delver from my list, no way.

EDIT: Found a recent list that looks pretty good. I'd make some small changes, but overall it looks pretty solid.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=30131&d=435903&f=LE

The new card Disapprove has a very cool interaction with Death’s Shadow and Kroxa...

You cast a Disapprove during your opponents end of turn step, draw a card, then next turn either cast a 1 mana Dreadnought or 2 mana Kroxa that you wont need to sac or swing (Stifle does this too) or swing with a 13/13 Death’s Shadow (that you have mana to cast a Temur’s Battle Rage or a haste card on).

This is where I ended up with the Vaka Nought list I was trying...

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove - Proxied up in paper all evening for testing

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
3 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
1 Reanimate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snuff Out
1 Drown In the Loch

4 Wasteland
14 Lands

It's a creative idea but it seems too inconsistent / fragile and I'm not convinced the mana will be good enough for Kroxa escape

I don't mind playing 1 Disapprove in a normal shadow deck as like a fun-of random cantrip that hates creatures abilities + a combat trick to make your shadow 13/13

I'm also interested in trying some number of Grief in Shadow because it's another decent thing to reanimate on turn 1 alongside Wraith but idk if there is space for it (like you would have to cut FoN probably)