Song doesnt look so good in the side,, its a instant.. ;)
RoF also isnt good,, you only get more mana when you have 2 of them in the grave,, cause Wish cost 2.. And when you play 3 main,, its hard to get 2 of them in your grave...
Mvg
Printable View
Song doesnt look so good in the side,, its a instant.. ;)
RoF also isnt good,, you only get more mana when you have 2 of them in the grave,, cause Wish cost 2.. And when you play 3 main,, its hard to get 2 of them in your grave...
Mvg
Yeah, my bad on the Seething Song. The only sorcery ritual effects I can think of are Channel the Suns (which only gives you +1 mana when you spent 2 to Burning Wish), and the Rite of Flame. I really want a +2 ritual effect in the board, or something that doubles as such.
What do you guys think about the Land Grant question? Should we go down to three if we're running only one Taiga?
I've been testing Storm Entity as a minor win-condition in Belcher:
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Pyroblast
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Storm Entity
SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Simplify
1 Grapeshot
While I can't say anything conclusive yet, Storm Entity has been surprisingly useful as a Plan B.
You can catch opponents offguard if they board out their creature removal and you circumvent stuff like Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives which would normally be very good against EtW tokens.
If anybody else is testing this, let me know how it does for you.
Won't you mana burn like crazy from Storm Entity?
Mana burn doesn't matter, but why would you put the Storm Entitys in the maindeck, when the time they're at their best is when you get to avoid creaturekill?
-Slay
Storm entity is very much better in the sideboard. It has to come as a surprise, otherwise, it is way too easy to kill for your opponent. The very best for a belcherplayer is to kill turn 1 or 2 with the charbelcher, and then the next round board in things like storm entity, and hope to catch your opponent off guard.
For reference, here is the list me and my (danish) team has developed. It is very aggressive, and after the meta has shifted towards a lot of force of will decks, it is not very good anymore.
THe kill:
4 belcher
4 empty the warrens
The critters:
8 spirit guides
4 tinder wall
4 Street wraith
The others:
3 pyroblast
4 serum powder
4 land grant
THe mana:
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 lion's eye diamond
1 taiga
The sideboard is something like:
4 storm entity
4 red elemental blast
3-4 shattering spree
3-4 something...
Anyway, that's how we play the belcher. There is no need for the second taiga, or land in general...
- meanee
Storm Entity has been a solid maindeck card for me, generally being a credible win condition if the opponent is countering mana sources all over the place. Even though it'll die quite often, I think it improves some unfavourable match-ups.
I see you have cut burning wish and the wish board, how consistant can this deck be only running 8 win conditions insted of 11?Quote:
Originally Posted by meanee
You're right, that sometimes you simply have to muligan just because you don't have any win-conditions in your starting 7. BUT. And there is a but, i'd say. If you exclude the wish, and wishboard from the deck, you can go off a lot faster. Up til about a .5 turns earlier...
In a thresh fow-in-generel meta I wouldn't play my list anymore. It has simply no way of fighting through a hand full of fow, daze, stifle and the like (even though one of my teammates fought through 4 counters when going off, but that seems to be a rare case :))
Anyway. All in all I like to play my list better than the wish-lists. Mine is very very aggressive, but, as I just said, it is also a lot more vulnerable... Unfortunately...
- meanee
If anyone has seen the latest list (or cares anyway), CRET Belcher won a 75-man tournament...filled with blue in the top 8. Now most people wouldn't advocate playing this deck in a blue-filled environment (and for the most part, such is still true), but this guy definitely proved us wrong. The card that won him these matches was Magus of the Moon. At first, I sorta dismissed the creature since it didn't make any sense in the deck. But as I imagined the plays, Magus of the Moon really puts the other decks (especially the tri-color aggro-control decks) in a jam. Backed by MB REB effects, resolving a Magus isn't as bad as people would think.
Secondly, the general consensus in Europe is still to run 2 Taigas. I honestly haven't found any particular advantage, but at the same time they're still running Wild Cantors and such. The deck might be a bit slower or inconsistent with Belches, but do you guys think it is worth it to stick to 2 lands?
Lastly, this isn't the first time I've seen 3x Rite of Flame MB and 1x SB. The chances that you'll have yarded a Rite of Flame (or two) while casting a Burning wish for something other than a win condition is very narrow. I still think 4x Rite of Flame is the correct number MB to maintain the explosiveness of the deck.
Where can I find the decklist? I wonder what goes out for the magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Do you have a deck list or the name of the tournament so we can see the top 8?
Okay, I'm not so sure about the Magus of the Moon tech, but it seems to be popular. Even the worlds lists had one deck with the Moonman in the board. Does anyone have test results with this? Also, two of the three lists at Worlds were running Xantid Swarm in the board.
I really like Paul Borocyk's list. From my playing, it's playing really well. Pretty smooth.
I like being striclty red and green, with black I had a lot more problem with consistency, being mana screwed a few times.
I like playing 2x Taiga's to maximize Belcher effect. With 2x lands you can get yours via Land Grand or draw and keep a land in the deck for a huge Belcher. I like improving the chances of an instant kill.
I like the Street Wraith, it makes your deck have 56 cards. More chance to draw whatever you want.
I like having REB's MD, it's a metagame slot, but tendency is that every meta will have lots of counters. At worlds was a good call.
What I'm not sure is the wish board and side boarding techniques. Could you help me?
Running 2 Taiga's doesn't maximize belcher, running 1 does however. If you hit no land off of a Belcer activation you will do damage equal to the number of cards left in your deck. I would rather run one Taiga and fetch it with a Land Grant, leaving zero land in my deck which,would guaruntee that I kill my opponent, then run two lands and chane revealing a land to early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipinho
Another thing is you want to run main board Pyroblasts not REB. Pyroblast can target any color spell, addiing to storm count if needed, while REB can only target blue spells. If this was just a typo then just ignor this last paragraph.
Sorry. I knew about pyroblast x REB.
But I thought you had to reveal a land for belcher to work... being new to the deck has these things.
I have played belcher many times and perfer the wishes there is too much hate maindeck (explosive, p needle) if the win the die roll. I also like cantor cause sometime you just have to beat in just ask tacosnape.
Yeah, that game was ridiculous.:PQuote:
Originally Posted by JDunkin00
I mostly agree, though. Cantor's still pretty good. What Wild Cantor allows you to do even in R/G is, much like Tinder Wall, stagger your combo when you're short on mana. Taiga/Mox, Cantor, go, leaves you only needing a net mana of +2 next turn to hit either a Belcher or a Warrens.
While this isn't a great strategy and the slot would be better served as a genuine mana accelerant, the obvious problem is that there isn't one. Without going into three colors, which hurts consistency.
Thanks for backing me up on that. :cool: Also while less consistant in theory I still have a small black splash of Infernal tutor. It's so good with LED and nice to pick up extra Rites to go off next turn with warrens+ or extra S Song to go off with belcher. Just 2 tutors main and one for the wish makes a big difference. I will try out these 1 taiga builds and see which I prefer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
You should really try the Magus tech. I know the guy who went first place with it and he confirmed me that it was quite good. He also went 8th in the same tourney with mostly the same build one month later.
Although he runs Magus and Blasts the deck still seems to run smooth enough. I'm playing with Magus myself but I'm still not too thrilled about Blasts main.
So how about we add a Draw 5-7 card effect to the deck?
Slithermuse
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifCreature - Elementalhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoil...gtide-rare.gifWhen Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gif
Anybody think Slithermuse will have an inpact on this deck?
With what blue mana would you evoke that? You have 4 Lotus Petal, and if you wanted to toss Wild Cantor back in the deck youd have that but even so thats just 8 blue sources...you cant even Burning Wish for it and use LED mana to pay for it. Doesnt seem to great here.
4 Land Grant + 1 Tropical Island + 4 Lotus Petal + 4 Wild Cantor = 13 U sources. I've been running Slither Muse in both the 13 U configuration and as a Living Wish target and both of them have impressed me so far. The increased Belcher misfires are worth the additional threats, tho' I'm not certain the 13 U configuration is superior to 8 MD blasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
If only they'd hurry up and print Vodalian Spirit Guide.
Seriously, though. This occurred to me in Belcher, but I am a little hesitant about the lack of blue.
Glad that was sarcastic cause blue with hidden mana is bad news. Plus you can run Wheel of Fate in the deck as is if you just desire some draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Tropical Island seems bad, theres a reason no one plays Bayou and Dark Ritual anymore, the same goes for Tropical and Slithermuse. And why are you back suggesting Living Wish? That card is not good in this deck, if you want to play Storm Entity MD/SB (I hope thats what its for...) then run it but dont run awful cards like Living Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Wheel of Fate. No, just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDunkin00
I know the reason Bayou and Dark Ritual were cut, I was the one that advocated cutting them in the first place, I also know the difference between what Bayou and Dark Ritual adds to the deck and what Tropical Island and Slithermuse adds to the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
Living Wish isn't bad, it's mediocre, but that's acceptable considering there's no other threat in either color that the deck can use. 1G+2U for a Slithermuse is less cost/risk than 1R + 2UU for Diminishing Returns and the deck gains access to Goblin Welder, Ancient Tomb, Storm Entity, Magus of the Moon etc.
Living Wish is only as good or as bad as its targets, and Slithermuse is a pretty good new target.
I'm not advocating anything, I'm just testing a new card, so chill out.
Just one Question...
In a R/G Build with only 1 Taiga but 4 Pyroblasts main, when you have 4 open Slots...
Would you Run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith???
Thx for Help
I would run Street Wraith since he digs for Finishers or Burning Wish (which is also kinda win condition, but also an answer to hate). I run 3 Street Wraith in my version, too, and I never felt it too hard to make a decision whether to mulligan or not...I really won't run Cantor instead of him, 'cause Cantor only gives you the right color of mana which I have in most cases already without him...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Spider
Slithermuse is Evoke :3: :u:
Hi guys.
I've played Belcher a bit during the time fellow Montrealer's (Team CRET) had success with the deck. Althought I liked the deck, I always favored Threshold as my deck of choice to take out to local tournaments. These days, I'm thinking of picking it up Belcher again and I'd like to know your take on recent developpments.
1. - 4 Dark Ritual:
Is playing Dark Ritual that hard ? Running 4 Cantor, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Land Grant and 1 Bayou, it never occured to me that getting B was a huge problem. Maybe your opponent can deny your black sources by killing Cantor, wasting Bayou or getting rid of Lotus Petal, but that doesn't seem likely (I might be wrong, since I haven't played the deck in a long time).
2. Street Wraith:
I have no 'real' opinion on this, since I haven't tested it yet.
3. 4 Pyroblast maindeck:
Same as (2).
Are there current lists that are considered to be 'standard' ?
In a short summary
1. Dark Ritual -can- be played, but the acceleration you gain isn't worth all the inconsistency.
2. Street Wraith blows.
3. Pyroblast is maindecked because without Dark Ritual, there isn't another mana accelerant to run in that slot that anyone's come up with.
aTn, there are a bunch of different versions to play u can go R/G, R/G/B, R/G with 1 land, it just depends on your playstyle. I personally think black HAS to be in the deck for dark ritual, cabal ritual, and plunge into darkness/spoils of the vault. I have talked with a lot of people around my local Legacy tournies about belcher any everyone unanimously agrees black has to be in there but the street wraith option is up in the air. Street Wraith terrifies me so I don't play it. Here is the verson I currently play, if nothing else I mulligan a lot less than I did with only R/G versions and have consistently stronger starting hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
Main Deck
Land:
4x Land Grant
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
Artifacts:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
Creatures
4x Tinder Wall
4x ESG
4x SSG
Rituals
4x Dark Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
4x Cabal Ritual
Kill
4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
3x Spoils of the Vault (could be plunge)
Sideboard
1x Reverent Silence
1x Cave-In
1x Pyroclasm
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hull Breach
1x Goblin War Strike
3x Shattering Spree
3x Pyroblast
3x Xantid Swarm
I have tried all of the builds especially the one with magus and pyroblasts main but I just never found it as consistent as this build. Anyway, it all comes down to your local meta and playstyle, try some different builds and see which one suits you.
Thanks for your advice (Taco, Pulp). I've played the CRET version of the deck for some time and I feel comfortable with it. That being said, I haven't tested some match-ups like Dragon Stompy and Dreadstill (which seem pretty hard).
Time to get some attention towards this deck.
Note that I'm not actually playing this deck right now, but I'm an avid combo player anyway so it does have my interest.
Anyway, I'm currently working on a computer program thats able to pilot Belcher completely on it's own. If you wonder how this works, here's an example:
The program "shuffles" up the deck, draws a random hand, then sees if it can combo with it. Here's a piece of example output:
Or an example using EtW:Code:Hand (7):
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Goblin Charbelcher
Lions Eye Diamond
Wild Cantor
Keep
Plays out like this:
Lotus Petal (G)
Lotus Petal (GG)
Chrome Mox -> imprint Wild Cantor (GGG)
Tinder Wall (RRGG)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRGG)
Goblin Charbelcher ()
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRR)
Activate Goblin Charbelcher
Finished. Press return to run again.
Please note that as of now the program isn't finished or bug free, but as you can see we're getting some nice results already.Code:Hand (7):
Simian Spirit Guide
Street Wraith
Land Grant
Chrome Mox
Wild Cantor
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame
Mulligan
Hand (6):
Elvish Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Wild Cantor
Lions Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Rite of Flame
Keep
Plays out like this:
Elvish Spirit Guide (G - Storm 0)
Tinder Wall (RR - Storm 1)
Wild Cantor (RG - Storm 2)
Rite of Flame (RRG - Storm 3)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRG - Storm 4)
Burning Wish (G - Storm 5)
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRRG - Storm 5)
Wish for Empty The Warrens
Empty The Warrens for 12 tokens ( - Storm 6)
Finished. Press return to run again.
Why am I telling you this? The reason is simple:
Once I'm finished building the program, and have incorporated all logic needed, we can use the program to find the Absolute Fastest Belcher List Possible (tm). The program could go over thousands of hands for every possible permutation of the decklist, and finally present the list with the best results, tweaked to the very last card.
Now, what I need from you, the community (if you want to help, ofcourse), is a list of all possible cards that should be tried for the deck. I'll edit this post with all cards that are named.
Finally, I'll edit in an URL to download the temporary program (the one whose results are above) once I've worked out the biggest problems.
[Edit]
Here's the first list of cards that might be tested. If you feel more of them should be on here, or some shouldn't be, feel free to say so:
Lands
Taiga, Bayou
Artifact Mana
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Bloom (wtf)
Red Mana Accelerants
Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Simian Spirit Guide
Black Mana Accelerants
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
Green Mana Accelerants
Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel the Suns, Land Grant, Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise
Tutors
Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Spoils of the Vault, Gamble, Plunge into Darkness
Win
Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Storm Entity (mh)
Filler Cards
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor
Protection / Backup (difficult to test)
Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Duress, Thoughtseize, Xantid Swarm, Pact of Negation, Goblin Welder, Unmask, Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant, Magus of the Moon
Strange ideas
Leyline of the Meek, Serum Powder
Wishboard-only cards
Goblin War Strike, Shattering Spree, Hull Breach, Simplify, Tendrils of Agony, Diminishing Returns, Cave-In, Pyroclasm, Rough // Tumble, Tremor, Ignite Memories, Deconstruct, Echoing Ruin
Big thanks to Brehn for giving me the complete list.
Wow. That's cool. However, all you're calculating is speed, with no room for protection/disruption (e.g. 4 Pyroblasts MD)... Still a very useful program to see what the fastest list would be, and then go from there for protection or whatever.
Yes, that's indeed a problem. You could still include Pyroblasts in the deck, even use them to up the stormcount, but it probably won't be any good if the only result we're looking at is speed.
Obviously very fast lists exist already, but I daresay nobody is going to do 5000 goldfishes to see if 3x Cantor / 4x Tinder Wall is more optimal than 4x Cantor / 3x Tinder Wall.
Btw, if there a any coders on these boards who would like to help / are interested in seeing the code, drop me a PM.
Could you calculate how much speed a certain card adds to the deck? Because if you could, then once the fastest list is found out, maybe you could take out the cards which contribute the least to speed and replace them with Pyroblasts.
That's not really needed. I just figured out how to bypass the problem:
Instead of asking the question "Give me the fastest list possible", just ask for "The fastest list containing 4x Pyroblast".
That actually was way to simple :p.
I'm now down to the last few points on the bot, before I'm going to release the program:
- He now refuses to imprint winconditions on Chrome Moxen.
- Street Wraiths are now only used as imprint fodder.
- He can only play hands on turn 1, on the play. A turn structure should be added.
Once that is fixed, I can begin to implement all the other cards. Once that is done, a program has to be written to create all possible permutations of decklists and track their results. Then it's only a matter of time before we get sme results.
Hopefully by tonight I'll have the program uploaded in it's first state (using only my current decklist).