[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I got first place at a local tournament (Superior Sports Cards in Tarentum, PA) with the following list:

20 Lands (9 fetch 4 wastes 7 duals)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Snapcaster
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate (sucks)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, TMS

In a heavy control metagame, I would consider dropping 1 Dismember in the main for an additional Maelstrom Pulse. Otherwise I think the main is pretty much optimized for a tempo build. Snapcaster was amazing all day, flashing back removal (yes, even Pulse), Hymns, cantrips, and once I even used it to replay Daze against an opponent tapping out to playing GSZ for four (presumably to find KotR). The card is the real deal, but I don't think I'd want to play more than 3 in this style of deck.

Liliana is awesome. She can just steal games, either by helping you get back or further ensure your advantage. I would highly recommend her as at least a 1-of.

Any UBG deck not running a Sylvan Library is doing it wrong. I may even consider a 2nd, it's that good.

As for the SB, I would cut Extirpate for an additional Crypt and Spellbomb. Extirpate does too little too late, and you want to be clearing the entire GY against dredge (which I was still luckily able to beat in the swiss). My thought was to use Snapcaster to flashback Extirpate, but you really don't typically have the time or opportunity against decks were GY hate really matters. The reason for the split of Crypt/Spellbomb is simply to avoid getting completely screwed by an early Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Additionally, if you are up against some sort of control deck that utilizes the GY but not enough to warrant 4 slots, Spellbomb at the very least cantrips.

(However, if your metagame has no graveyard decks, these slots could be used for other cards like Perish, Darkblast, Krosan Grip/Seal of Primordium, etc. Or if you are only concerned with Reanimator but not Dredge, Faerie Macabre deserves some consideration as a nearly-uncounterable way to deal with their GY.)

I didn't always side in all 3 Pernicious Deed, but this card is still key for winning the Merfolk matchup, with other important applications against various decks. I could maybe see cutting one for a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse.

Re: Spell Pierce, I've never been a huge fan of targeted discard spells in this style of deck. I can see the merit in running Thoughtseize alongside a build using Delver of Secrets, but with my build I want Spell Pierce found via Brainstorm in reaction to some sort of threat, or I want to keep U up to at least bluff Stifle. I'd also rather an opponent waste mana on their own turn trying to resolve Hymn or whatever than me having to tap out on my turn and pay 2 life to pluck it. Thoughtseize is also of no help when your opponent topdecks their Show and Tell/Natural Order.

Admittedly, this tournament's sample size was relatively small, but I played against some rough matchups and the majority of the players at this event are very good (Rich Shay, Stu Somers, Tim Babcock etc). That said, I have also tested this build a lot online via Cockatrice and found it to be fantastic there as well.

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Try Surgical Extraction instead of Extirpate. It works well with Snapcaster and is as live from the start of the game.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

For the Maverick matchup, there are several cards that should help: Darkblast, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Virtue's Ruin, any black removal but especially Deathmark. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives aren't too shabby either. Using Snapcaster to replay removal is also key. The only cards that seen utterly game breaking are Choke and an uncontested Aven Mindcensor when you have no lands. Otherwise, I fail to see why Maverick is any more difficult than any other aggro matchup.

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Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.
KotR is often too big to remove and unanswered will destroy TA's manabase.
SFM finds equipment which this deck isn't equipped to handle without special tools.
Exalted beats means even a Bird of Paradise is a threat.

Not to mention that GSZ finds more of those cards, and such must be countered.
Versions that run Sylvan Library are able to ignore your discard and wait for the perfect time to play out threats.

Compared with regular aggro, Maverick only needs to land one of these and ride it to victory. Traditional aggro needs to swarm and press its early game threats before TA's Wall of Creatures stop its aggression.

Best way to answer Maverick are with Pernicious Deed and Perish, coupled with Thoughtseize and Hymn. The blue is mostly useless against them except for an occasional counter-spell. Boarding out Force of Will for more removal and card advantage is a good way to defeat this matchup.

EDIT: Liliana is very helpful in this matchup. Jace too, provided a constant stream of removal is flowing.

Yeah, Maverick is particularly nasty against tempo decks because as Rukcus pointed out, you pretty much have to answer every threat they play. Most Maverick lists are GW so their manabases are extremely stable on top of Noble Hierarch / Birds being great answers to Wasteland / Daze.

Deed (and sweepers in general) are great against decks like that, but board sweepers just aren't as popular these days in Legacy due to them not being very good against all the Snapcaster / SFM decks running around (especially in the American meta).

You know what wrecks those decks? Massacre. Kills stoneforge mystic for free, and snapcaster + clique and co., and also kicks Maverick in the balls. The only threats it doesn't sweep there are Goyf, Knight, and sometimes Ooze. And that's where the rest of your removal goes.

It is awkward with Delver, but in the Snapcaster builds I would give it a try.

Eplague on Wizards is also hilarious against the Uw SCM decks.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.

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Agree

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.

Best way to answer Maverick are with Pernicious Deed and Perish, coupled with Thoughtseize and Hymn. The blue is mostly useless against them except for an occasional counter-spell. Boarding out Force of Will for more removal and card advantage is a good way to defeat this matchup.

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I do agree that we ride to victory using deed, but I do not agree about hymn. Because we need to answer every threat, we cannot cast hymn. If mother untaps we cannot remove their pridemages/KoR which stop us from whiping the board with a deed before we are dead.

We get card advantage from Deed, Jace and by snapping back removal.
Play Discard and 3 Spell Pierce to make sure you don't loose to Choke or Sylvan Library. Spell Pierce is very good against Maverick besides of the "narrow" choke or Sylvan. GSZ (i.e. for pridemage) and also for equipments which they tend to cast (playing 3 equipments (no batterskull but Jitte) and only 3 stoneforges makes them cast equipments quite regularly).

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

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If you look at my most recent list, the creature configuration I'm using is 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Tombstalker, 3 Snapcaster Mage. Big Dumb Guys are still excellent in Legacy, especially when other decks aren't playing BDGs of their own, and ESPECIALLY when a bunch of decks are using Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer as their maindeck removal. Snapcaster is more of a utility card than a creature, but it helps with the beatdown plan somewhat as well.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

You know what wrecks those decks? Massacre. Kills stoneforge mystic for free, and snapcaster + clique and co., and also kicks Maverick in the balls. The only threats it doesn't sweep there are Goyf, Knight, and sometimes Ooze. And that's where the rest of your removal goes.

It is awkward with Delver, but in the Snapcaster builds I would give it a try.

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Great suggestion, and may need some strong consideration for TA sideboards now that Drew Levin has been promoting the deck lately. Honestly, I think Zoo is a far harder matchup than Maverick since they run bigger threats and burn (esp. if they have Price of Progress).

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

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I've been playing 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker, 2 Vcliques lately, because I like Stifle.

It's all a matter of whether you wanna play tempo or not. Snapcasters are decent, but your gameplan isn't t1 stifle, t2 hymn, t3 tombstalker anymore. You're playing more of a BUG control config, which is fine.

Just do what you want.

Also: Watch out for a lot of non-basic hate... I've found that that's been what's been wrecking me. I've seen too many Aggro Loam builds lately. Makes me want to play Life from the Loam... a little.

Life from the loam is sick in Team America for particular metas. If you are looking for an advantage in the mirror and against other control decks then running a pair of loams somewhere in your 75 is very good.

Hi everyone! This is my first post in this forum. Hope not to make some mistakes!
Talking about the deck, why not to play a sort of Dark Tempo Threshold? Something like this:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Dismember
3 [MBS] Go for the Throat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The reasons I had to switch from a "standard" team america to this deck are:
1 without discard spell you don't have dead draws in mid-late game
2 you can play 8 cantrip spells (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder) and dig your deck insanely;
3 Put some creature on the field in the first two turn, and ride a Delver of Secrets FTW. I think this creature is a turning point for decks like this, and been able to use it is something very important in my opinion
4 the RUG version of this deck is really strong, but cannot handle creatures like Knoght of the Reliquary, which seems to be more popular every day (just look at GP Amsterdam top32!)
So what's your opinion of this deck? Some ideas?
Looking forward to know your point of view!

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Originally Posted by Said-In-Contest

Hi everyone! This is my first post in this forum. Hope not to make some mistakes!
Talking about the deck, why not to play a sort of Dark Tempo Threshold? Something like this:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Dismember
3 [MBS] Go for the Throat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The reasons I had to switch from a "standard" team america to this deck are:
1 without discard spell you don't have dead draws in mid-late game
2 you can play 8 cantrip spells (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder) and dig your deck insanely;
3 Put some creature on the field in the first two turn, and ride a Delver of Secrets FTW. I think this creature is a turning point for decks like this, and been able to use it is something very important in my opinion
4 the RUG version of this deck is really strong, but cannot handle creatures like Knoght of the Reliquary, which seems to be more popular every day (just look at GP Amsterdam top32!)
So what's your opinion of this deck? Some ideas?
Looking forward to know your point of view!

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I don't think you can support so many 2 mana spells with 18 lands (4 Wastelands). This manabase works for canadian thresh, because they only have spells that are free or cost 1. Also you always want to have mana open for spell snare and stifle and therefore can't affort to pay 2 mana for a removal or a creature.

I also thinkt that red is much better for this deck than black, because red deals better with aggro and midrange than black does (lavamancer, firespout) and red also provides the last 3-6 damage to the face to end the race... and in a tempo deck is often about racing.

I went 3-1 in a local tourament placing 3rd out of 20 people. I ran a more control variant of Team American which borers on BUG.

My list was similar to the one shown here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=41302

I beat Reanimator, Control RUG (with snapcasters and stifles), and Merlok. I lost to Goblins, in large part to it's speed and ability to punish non-basics: Bloodmoon, Price of Progress and Wastelands. I do have 4 copies of deeds in my 75 cards, but I was unable to get them online fast enough to be effective.

A few thoughts:

1) I need a way to improve my matchup against goblins and aggro decks without hurting my control matchups. I have even considered Energy Field in sideboard.

2) I decided against the stifle game plan because of how many games I watched them sit in my hand with no effect. They are a bad late game top deck and not good in my worst matchups. I'm wondering if I should cut wasteland for similar reasons - perhaps add and island and swamp to the deck to improve the mana base.

3) I don't think red is a good way forward with this deck. If you want to race your opponent with aggro play zoo. This deck is much better when its controling the board and building card advantage. I would much rather flash back a thought seize or hymn than I would a lightning bolt. Black is the best color in this deck and it let's us play some of the best cards in legacy: thoughtseize, bob, hymn, liliana, along with many great removal spells.

You could always go back to Dystopia. It's the old answer to GW decks that get too big for their britches. Not a fast answer, but not a fun one for them to deal with. Randomly good for Enchantress also as a bonus.

Virtue's Ruin is one of the better ones also. I personally love that card anymore since it hits most of the green baddies and Maverick doesn't run Goyfs so it works exceptionally well against them.

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Originally Posted by SansSerif

1) I need a way to improve my matchup against goblins and aggro decks without hurting my control matchups. I have even considered Energy Field in sideboard.

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Since nobody is talking about classic TA at the moment and there is no good BUG thread, I suggest we discuss this here.

Obviosly aggro is a problem for BUG and that is also the reason why I don't play one of the most powerful creatures which is Bob. He is just very very bad versus aggro. Also Thoughtseize and Dismember are very powerful cards which I want versus aggro, but are not playable having Bob in there.

Snapcaster on the other hand is very good against aggro (and midrange). My plan against aggro is to make sure I can consistantly trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until I can blow them out with a deed and take over.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and countermagic such as thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed...

What is also important to understand is that Hymn is mostly not good against aggro (I explained some posts ago).

So my answer to aggro is (postboard):
Trade 1 for 1:
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Depending on the Matchup some numbers of: Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

Get an advantage / blow them out
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Pernicious Deed

Take over
1 Lialiana of the Veil
3 Jace, them Mindsculptor

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Originally Posted by catmint

Since nobody is talking about classic TA at the moment and there is no good BUG thread, I suggest we discuss this here.

Obviosly aggro is a problem for BUG and that is also the reason why I don't play one of the most powerful creatures which is Bob. He is just very very bad versus aggro. Also Thoughtseize and Dismember are very powerful cards which I want versus aggro, but are not playable having Bob in there.

Snapcaster on the other hand is very good against aggro (and midrange). My plan against aggro is to make sure I can consistantly trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until I can blow them out with a deed and take over.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and countermagic such as thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed...

What is also important to understand is that Hymn is mostly not good against aggro (I explained some posts ago).

So my answer to aggro is (postboard):
Trade 1 for 1:
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Depending on the Matchup some numbers of: Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

Get an advantage / blow them out
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Pernicious Deed

Take over
1 Lialiana of the Veil
3 Jace, them Mindsculptor

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Sound.

Hymn isn't good against aggro (mostly) because aggro has a lot of redundancy, and taking two redundant cards at random doesn't hurt them as much as it helps you. Where it's nuts, hymn can nab really important cards from an archetype. Otherwise it's an easy board out.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Sound.

Hymn isn't good against aggro (mostly) because aggro has a lot of redundancy, and taking two redundant cards at random doesn't hurt them as much as it helps you. Where it's nuts, hymn can nab really important cards from an archetype. Otherwise it's an easy board out.

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I don't follow. If your playing against redundant aggro, wouldn't you rather be going 2-for-1 with Hymn than going 1-for-1 with removal/Thoughtseize/Inquisition?

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I don't follow. If your playing against redundant aggro, wouldn't you rather be going 2-for-1 with Hymn than going 1-for-1 with removal/Thoughtseize/Inquisition?

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Nothing wrong with 2 for 1 considering redundancy. What he meant is that hymn is much more powerful when you have the ability to screw the opponent by making him discard a combo peace or an important spell like jace or batterskull.

My reasoning why hymn is not that good against aggro is because:

1) we often need to kill the creature that is on-board in order to survive and execute our gameplan (i.e playing hymne while cursecatcher, mother of runes, goblin lackey, knight of the reliquary,... is on board has little value.)

2) we don't need card advantage in the early game, because we just need to survive to gain a huge advantage later on from snapcaster, jace and deed.

2) pointed discard and counterspells are more important to ensure deed works and we are not blown out by B2B, Choke, Pridemage or whatever.

The exception for me is fast Zoo where we do not face utility creatures and deed is too slow. Here I would leave Hmyn in and rather board out Jace (altough I never played against Zoo post MM, so not 100% set on my plan)

Just a heads up for TA players: Reanimator decks are now running more Duress/Thoughtseize and Liliana of the Veil in the SB. This matchup used to be a breeze, but with these changes it isn't quite as simple as it used to be.