[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Just wondering, for loam decks, why not use crucible? You can still abuse the waste-lock but you don't give up your draw to do it. I haven't seen any of the lists running a cycle land so you're not really getting more of a bonus other than it requires more than one counter to keep it offline. But, if they're countering that, there is one less counter for your deck.

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Because of a few reasons. First is the great synergy with Stronghold. You dredge a needed fatty, no worries, put it on top. Another reason is because it returns them to your hand, which in turn gives drawing another Mox more value later in the game. It also feeds your goyf if needed. Also against all of the counter decks running around if they counter your crucible you are hosed, however you can dredge back the Loam as often as needed. They can only counter it so many times.

Snapcaster Mage is slightly insane. Target spell gains flashback is pretty good. Brainstorm, Misstep, Stifle (if played), Swords, Spell Snare, etc. It seems quite good.

I definitely think you can play both Goyf AND SFM, but they're different cards. It depends what you're trying to do: are you trying to run out SFM as soon as possible, or are you waiting until turn 4/5 to lay it out and ride out the midgame? It's a very similar situation to White America vs. Team America: midgame goodness versus Tempo.

The nice thing is, we can have both if we want to!

-Matt

If you guys were listening to the star city games last week Brain Kibler said that he highly doubts that card will get banned since he felt that card was made for this format. I have to agree with him since I can't really see them banning this so soon and I really don't think it needs to be. I actually don't think anything should really be banned right now but if something does I actually think it should be stoneforge.

I don't think it will be banned.

Like I said, Wizards hates combo, so if something had to go, I'd put my money on Show and Tell.

-Matt

I know everyone likes vindicates over pulses, but there are games where the pulses are much more useful than the vindicate. Iona named white played in reanimator, or dredge full of zombies.

To be honest, I think i've only destroyed a land 2 times the whole time I've used vindicate.

Thats made me use pulses more.

I think that with the current rise of decks playing Jtms/stoneforge Hexmage is definitely necessary and worth playing in combination with dark depths. Also krosan grip should be heavily considered m/b, at the least pridemage.

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Originally Posted by mdc1010

Because of a few reasons. First is the great synergy with Stronghold. You dredge a needed fatty, no worries, put it on top. Another reason is because it returns them to your hand, which in turn gives drawing another Mox more value later in the game. It also feeds your goyf if needed. Also against all of the counter decks running around if they counter your crucible you are hosed, however you can dredge back the Loam as often as needed. They can only counter it so many times.

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The stronghold aspect is a turn late (which a lot can happen within that timeframe). Honestly, I'd rather draw it than play another effect to wait another turn. Additionally, they may just waste the stronghold, or remove it when you try to loam it after dredging it.

Diamonds... are they really worth it? You could just pitch the land to mox and play it using the crucible... same effect. If you're going to draw a land, why not just draw it? Why pay 1G for it? Yes, there are times that you will want another diamond active, but with a crucible, you'll be playing lands out of your yard anyway.

The counter/discard (adding that it) point is probably the best defense. I won't argue that you can force a loam through. I feel that If they're using it on that, then they're not taking the piece of action you have. I would much rather have a Crucible taken than a Knight, Mystic, or GSZ. Honestly, if the loam/crucible is the best card in the hand then you're probably in trouble anyway and, sometimes, the threat of a waste-lock is too much and will get them to pull the land recursion instead of what they should be getting (I'm not a fan of using the, "bad player" defense but awkward situations have the potential to make anyone into a "bad player").
Counters are a little different as you have to make them use/discard them. If you're trying to get the crucible out there, just bait for counters. It'll land if you're doing it right. Although, you can't beat the topdeck. Just remember that.

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I've played both and I've never liked the disadvantage of Loam. The biggest disadvantage of loam is that it's slow. You're going to be a 1-2 turns behind anything you have planned with Loam. We don't have cycle lands so a counter makes that 2-3 turns. Yes, you can fully wastelock someone but, you won't get to do that to everyone (or very many people).
Also, GY hate hurts the base deck already (Knight and goyf both relying on the yard for power). the worst thing that you could have happen is to get crypted, bogged, relic'd, etc with the loam in the yard when you don't want the cards on top, or with it on the stack. Crucible forces them to have repetitive use removal (ooze, relic, etc) or blow their load when they think it's safe. Often times you will be able to just continue doing what you were because you could operate out of the yard.
Crucible suffers from not showing you more lands to grab with it every time you use it, but you still get to draw out of it and spells are what you really want anyway. 1;1 we can out-draw 90% of the field. So why hinder than draw?
You also aren't dumping mana into it after the initial 3. Casting 2 each turn, can add up.

I do want to say, I am aware that you don't have to loam every turn. Not doing so is one of the luxuries that you get but, each turn that you don't, is a turn that it's value depreciates. You'll use the crucible every turn you can (baring getting new lands to add to it's value) and every turn it's out there (like Bob) you gain a little bit of advantage. those are the reason's I would push crucible.

If anyone's going to try crucible (and I hope someone does) I would suggest using exploration in the accelerate slot. Ever watched 43-lands go nuts with wastes in a turn? Ever wanted to do it? don't worry about Misstep. If they're countering that, you're laughing at them ...loudly.

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I think that with the current rise of decks playing Jtms/stoneforge Hexmage is definitely necessary and worth playing in combination with dark depths. Also krosan grip should be heavily considered m/b, at the least pridemage.

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I'd have to say I disagree. Playing Grip main isn't the best, I'll be honest. What game does it have against NO RUG? Merfolk (besides Vial)? Dredge? Nothing.

Hexmage gives you a 1-turn clock, which can be super good. Racing a Progenitus is a really good play, but going in on this plan has a few disadvantages.

Hexmage Depths plan is vulnerable to: Stifle, Wasteland, Jace, Counterspells, Swords to Plowshares/Path, Vendilion Clique. Clique has seriously risen in popularity; Going all-in with Wishes in the combo build seems terrible, since they just grab your Hexmage or whatever you wished for. Seems bad. Hexmage itself isn't terrible. A 2/1 First Strike that nukes Jace is fine, but if I'm playing the Jace deck, I really don't care. I kill it, counter it, or just beat face with Batterskull. Sure, it helps, dont' get me wrong, but usually you're waiting to blow up your Depths, and not Jace, with it. Or, they can foil your whole plan by keeping a Wasteland open. Not hard to do in a deck with Crucible.

The 1-of Crucible is pretty dirty, I've tried it. It's only good in the extreme long game for Wasteland lock, but it's pretty good. To be extra, add 1 Ghost Quarter and let simmer for 25 minutes :tongue:

-Matt

Creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
1 terravore
2 qasali pridemage
1 gaddock teeg
4 dark confidant

Sorcery (13)
4 Thoughtseize
2 green sun zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 vindicate

Instant (4)
4 Swords to Plowshare

Artifacts/Enchantment (6)
2 sensei's diving top
1 slyvan Library
3 Mox Diamond

Lands (24)
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
3 marsh flats
4 verdent catacombs
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 volrath's stronghold
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
3 wastelands

Sideboard
2 enlightened tutor
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 dueling ground
2 pernicious deed
3 extirpate
1 thrun the last troll
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 null rod
2 krosan grip
1 Path to Exile

Any suggestions?

@Damion: I DO have a problem with getting flooded, and have been trying to cut a land, you think I could cut two? The balance is in still being able run the utility-lands. I want to stick with 1 canopy, 2 dark depths, 1 maze, 1 volraths stronghold, 1 urborg.

To that I'm running 8 fetches, 7 lands and 4 wastelands. You'd shave fetches?

Am I the only one who thinks this deck just doesn't cut it at all atm? I've tried almost any version (with and without GSZ, with and without Stoneforge package, with combination of GSZ and Stoneforge, with and without Mox Diamonds*) and I find it (almost) impossible to win against those Jace/Stoneforge decks. I also have a hard time winning from Merfolk and even from Zoo. It is possible to win from combo if your sideboard is tuned (which I think mine is+) but that can go horribly wrong just as well.

*:
The only version I haven't been able to properly test/play with yet is the Dark Depths version. I have done some preliminary testing and it feels very slow and/or inconsistent. The draws can be so random just like some manabase draws. Living Wish seems too slow and I feel Loam isn't really worth it.

+:
SB For those interested.
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Umzawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg (in combination with a Teeg in the main and 2 GSZ main, (siding out a 3rd one).

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Originally Posted by berry

@Damion: I DO have a problem with getting flooded, and have been trying to cut a land, you think I could cut two? The balance is in still being able run the utility-lands. I want to stick with 1 canopy, 2 dark depths, 1 maze, 1 volraths stronghold, 1 urborg.

To that I'm running 8 fetches, 7 lands and 4 wastelands. You'd shave fetches?

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I didn't actually see the Stronghold in the list yet but, I would start off with actually giving up on the 2 Depths. You can already recur it if anything happens and you can also fetch for it with Knight. You'll never want to have 2 of them in an opening hand (unless you're pitching them to a Mox).

If you want to add the Stronghold, I would actually replace a wasteland with it. You don't want to cut too many colored sources since you need the black for the Hexmage and Hymn.

Cutting that way gives you an open slot. I would suggest a Pernicious Deed or a Sylvan Library. Selection is a strong thing and so is mass removal. Even if you lose a mox or 2 if you're probably gaining an advantage.

Have you gotten a chance to put in any testing?

It's a Karakas in my list instead, I changed it later on.

So...

-1 Wasteland
-1 Dark Depths (are you sure about this? I'll try!)
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Deed/Sylvan.

Sylvan is sweet, but with 2 tops and a Loam already? Maybe, why not. Deed seems to be my choice though.

I've been playtesting massively against UW StoneBlade and nothing else recently, but our pre-Amsterdam test group is shaping up and there is a GPT here in town on Saturday, I'll report from that.

It's the UW testing that led me to cut Wishes (sloooow and cliqued) & cut Missteps for Hymns (he told me everytime his Plow got misstepped he just felt lucky that he wasn't hymned, and I can agree...).

So I've completed even more testing. I've moved away from using Mox Diamonds due to a slower format overall. I toyed around with dropping Thoughtseize but felt like others were right regarding not doing it. Especially with dropping the Mox's you really do need them turn 1 when possible. Since I dropped the Mox's completely I also dropped the Riftstone Portal. The portal really shines in the Mox builds only. If I start playing Moxs again then I include the Portal.

I really did end up missing have StP in my build. In this build I was able to keep full sets of all the core disruption and removal cards (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Vindicate, and StP). I was also able to stay greedy and fit in both the Hexmage Combo and Mystic packages. I moved the Loam and Deeds to the sideboard as it's relevance in most game 1s was minimal, and provided to be more stellar out of the side.

Below is the list for testing and feedback.

Also very glad to finally see this in DTB!

//Lands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

//Removal and disruption
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

//Artifcats
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I have been having lots of success with Sinkhole lately. It has been absolutely great against every Stoneforge variants and 3 colors decks. I have recently switched from SFM to Goyf again simply because SFM has proven to be too slow and vulnerable in a deck playing without blue or with a relatively low creature count. With the addition of Sinkhole I have also been very pleased with Birds of Paradise. With 12 land destructive cards, riding a T1 bird to complete board domination is very likely. Here is my current list:


Creatures (18)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (21)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Duress
2 Go for the Throat
3 Extirpate


What is great about this list is all of the various removal packed in the total 75. With 12 discard, 12 land destruction cards, 10 creature removal, and 8 artifact/enchantment removal spells between the MB and SB, tuning for subsequent games is very effective. Winning the die roll is very favorable because recovering from this deck's early disruption and land destruction is extremely difficult. Having no answers to Progenitus is a non-issue because all of the removal compacted in the deck greatly stifles any form of NO plan.

I believe this approach to Rock is more effective at the moment than the slower versions capitalizing on KotR/SFM/GSZ toolboxes.

@ mdc1010: i have used a non-mox build for a long time, and as you allready said, in a non-mox build the card you want in your hand for your first turn is thoughtseize
actually only thoughtseize seemed to few for me in a non-mox build, so i added 2 inquisition of kozileks as well to max out the chances of 1st turn disruption

try it you probably will like it

@ Qweerios: i have allways been skeptical about sinkhole, but you may be right, the meta and opponents right now is not prepared for such an assault on their manabase, so i could definitely see this working just fine,.... but, its not something i will test^^, as i have no sinkholes and do not want to spend that much money on a "temporarily good - otherwise marginal" card

i for my part have been trying the hexmage combo right now in a mox-build, and i do not know how you guys feel about it, but i would actually love to see the full set of moxen in that build, only thing is that the list is sooooo tight that i do not know what to cut.
the only options would be 1 loam (out of 2) or maybe 1 hexmage (out of 3), 1 vindicate (out of 3) or either 1 tarmogoyf (4) or 1 knight (4)
i would probably go with loam, but with more moxen it becomes more powerfull :(

so please some suggestions on this thing would be nice, thx

other thing i was thinking about again, is elspeth. It seems she was dismissed here for quite some time, i was just wondering why, as she, at least in theory, should slay jaceTMS, or am i wrong? And she would be nice having either in the aggro or in the control-role, and is pure CA which we only have bob and hymn for, which seems not that much compared to other decks.
And with her and maybe a knight we would also be able to race a progenitus, just like with marit lage

so what do you guys think?

AggroSteve, if you're running the Depths combo you can probably cut the 3rd Vindicate for the 4th Mox. If you run 4 moxes, you also might want to bump up to 24 lands (23 is the usual average it seems) and run both the Loams. If Loam has been lackluster for you, maybe dropping to 1 is okay, but in that version I think 2 is more appropriate. Also, you might want to consider cutting Vindicate for 2-3 Missteps, depending on your meta. Vindicate is really good, just hard to squeeze in with the Depths plan in my opinion. What's your list look like?

Also, Elspeth = Hell Yes. She's the best way to beat Blue decks, and is only lackluster in the combo matchups. I'm very happy running 2 in my build, and won't be changing her out anytime soon. She won me the game on more than one occasion last night.

On Life from the Loam vs. Crucible of Worlds:

I'm pretty confident that Loam is better, especially in Junk. First off, I noted that most green decks that want this effect use Loam, whereas the off-green decks resort to Crucible. There are a few concrete reasons why I think Loam is better for us:

1) Mana cost. The extra mana is relevant, especially if you're trying to Waste-lock them or you're stuck on lands yourself. Missing a third land drop is common enough for us, and having that extra Wasteland a turn earlier is often crucial for the LD-plan. Simply put, Crucible is slower and more vulnerable to Daze and mana issues.

2) Card Advantage. Life from the Loam can instantly gain you (up to) 3 cards, whereas Crucible takes another 2 turns to gain that value. If you have 2 Wastelands in the yard, they immediately return to your hand for use later in the game. If Crucible gets removed or your GY gets blown up, you're out of luck. Also, getting value after counterspells is very relevant. Graveyard hate effectively stops both cards if played right, but I'd rather have Loam then Crucible if they're hating on my yard. Also, if they have to waste a card shutting off either effect, it's one less relevant card to affect the board, and with Loam you've already filled your hand back up with lands.

3) Value. Life from the Loam's interacting with library manipulation is ridiculously good. If you know your top cards are land and Loam is in your 'yard, you can bin the lands, draw the Loam, and recast it if necessary for the cards you just binned. Meanwhile, you are digging deeper with Top or Library. The interaction of Loam + Sylvan Library, while slightly confusing (ask sdematt about it...), is a very powerful engine when used correctly. This is in addition to the fact that by Dredging lands into your GY and recurring Fetchlands late in the game, you are thinning your deck out to a statistically-significant degree. Add in a couple Knight activations, and your chances of top-decking relevant spells over useless lands in the endgame skyrockets. This is a subtle but very important aspect of Junk that sometimes is overlooked.

Last night I had more fun with my singleton Sylvan Library and singleton Life from the Loam than I've ever had in 4 rounds of Magic. I probably recurred something like 5 or 6 Wastelands in 3 separate games, and dug my way out of mana trouble in the process. Getting both Library and Loam going at the same time, while lucky, was also quite-game breaking.

Anyway, you can see my stance is that Loam is a bit better than Crucible, but I was considering Crucible for awhile and will do some testing with it in the future to clarify my opinions. In the long run, they basically do the same thing, but I think Loam is more dimensional and gives us more options, especially for the Dark Depths players.

Loam is so good with top and library which imo makes it a lot better for this deck. Cow I think is only better in stax vairants and other decks that do not want to pay the 2 mana a turn. I agree with Borealis. Also, I really like elspeth in this deck a lot. I like it a lot with knight and helps against blue decks so much.

It's not that hard to understand. Library's oracle specifically reads drawn. So, if you replace a draw with a dredge (or in the previously more common version exiled with Uba Mask in Green Stax builds) you don't have to put that card back.

Actual ruling - If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

Explained - Library wants 2 cards (if you've DRAWN them).

Simple Explanation - If you draw for turn, dregde first draw and draw, Library will effectively see this as drawing 2 cards and require you to put 2 cards back. If you were to replace another draw then Library see's that you drew 1 card and want 1 card.

You're right though, you do net a card that way. Drawing additional cards is not something to scoff at but you're still Binning 3 cards every time you dredge loam which is essentially 3 lands (if you have them available). Sometimes you'll get Wastelands, other time's you'll get other things. Either way it's still 3 lands (which once we've gotten to 4 do we really want another?!

So essentially, you're suggesting a singleton loam, with a singleton library to get lands 3-8 (3 is worst case scenario) or better put, you're suggesting we lower the amount of threats (as we're milling them) to force a stronghold into our deck (additional colored source in a 3 color mana intensive deck) to essential pay mana to draw lands... and you're calling this card advantage? I'm not attacking you but, this idea seems a little off to me.

Besides, you still have to play the library first. Lord forbid you actually mill it 'cause that'll stop my need for any of my above explanation.

On that note, you mentioned Graveyard hate being better against Crucible than Loam. It's true that effects like Crypt force Crucible to wait until there's another effect to abuse. It's true that repeated use hate cards can remove every land before letting Crucible really be effective. You mean you're seriously telling me it doesn't against Loam?!

Yes, Crypt effects force a choice between the Loams and the lands. Essentially, you're still stuck in the same position as you now need to get lands into the yard again to actually do something with the Loam. Provided they decide to his the lands and not the loam which would be the same as timewalking us as we don't have any ways to draw additional cards (unless you're running library or cycle lands). With a knight, or a usable land in hand this problem is solved. This is where loam has an advantage. You can replace your draw (this seems like a great idea) to maybe get the lands you are looking for.

Repeatable use effects have the same effect on both cards. Loam can race it by again replacing your draw step (so, how're we winning?) but chances are that if they can afford to, they'll keep eating the targets that matter. When they can't, they'll just get the loam and shut it down.

The Crucible will sit there and do nothing until there's a land. No matter what happens, you'll still get to draw. So, if they have to devote resources to the effect (Ooze, Wretch, etc) then you can hope to slip a land in there every now and then without having to waste a turn. Crucible, in this case more than loam, will have value by just sitting there as you still get to draw.

Cost is probably the most relevant thing here. it's 3 vs 1G (essentially 2). The big thing here is that, we're not designed like my old build (Linked below). You're not trying to get to 5 mana to go crazy. The deck needs 3 mana to cast most of it's spells. probability happens but, our manabase is designed to get to 3 lands. Mox or not, you should be able to find 3 lands 85% of the time. If getting to 3 is the issue, you may want to look into adding another land before looking to recur them.

Lastly, I just want to say, even though you're giving up a draw for 3 consistent land drops you are still limited to playing 1 land per turn. So, either way (unless you're playing an exploration effect), you're going to have to deal with your hand filling up with lands.

No matter which version you're running, you're still a Rock deck. Land control isn't the main thing you want. I will say however, I do believe that manabases are getting more vulnerable as time passes and legacy gets newer people. They don't seem to be aware that Moon effects exist. Waste locks can make a good thing bad. Focusing on that, while good, will probably only get you past the first couple rounds.

-Old List for Reference.. my how we've changed-

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http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571

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On Elspeth, She's really good. I've got 2 in my list. Jumping over Moats is crazy good.

I also have given some thought to the HexDepths plan (sans Stoneforge though) and was thinking that Kenny Mayer may have been onto something with Crop Rotation. I quickly brewed a list today that is a shell of what could be a Wish-less Depths plan. It's not tested, tuned, or even well-thought out, more of a suggestion as to how to concentration on Marit Lage a little more without running Living Wish and losing too much tempo advantage. Here is the quick brew:

4 Bob
4 Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Goyf
(15 Dudes)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
2 Crop Rotation
(10 Instants)

3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
(5 Sorceries)

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Diving Top
(6 Artifacts)

2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
(24 Land)

Crop Rotation gives you instant speed Marit Lages with Hexmage in play, and you don't even need to pass priority, very much faster than Wishing a turn or 1/2 turn before you want to combo. 4x Moxes to drop Depths from your opening hand when you don't want it (or are on Loam), and to make turn 2 Marit Lages a reasonable possibility. 4x Misstep to protect your Marit Lage and Crop Rotation, and just cuz. 4x Wasteland to still get potential Waste Locks, and to defend against opposing Karakas/Wasteland/Maze of Ith. This build would aim to be more aggressive on the combo, without losing too much tempo from Living Wish. As I said though, brief suggestion mostly highlighting Crop Rotation as a potential include, it is by no means tested or proven to work. When I was running HexDepths (Jesse Roberts' version), I considered adding 1-2 Crop Rotation for added consistency, and I still think it might be the way to go. Kenny Mayer was on to something back there....

Anyway, I'm just getting comfortable with my Classic Junk list now, so it will be awhile before I revert back to Depths, but I'll probably try something like this when I do. Let me know if any of you try Crop Rotation and think it's awful or decent, I'm curious what the consensus might be.

~B