Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I don't know why you'd name Abrupt Decay against a combo deck. Naming a combo piece forces them to find an answer. If all you have out is a Meddling Mage naming their anti-hate then you aren't really stopping them from comboing. If you have a Meddling Mage (on a combo piece) and say a Counterbalance then they still have to find two anti-hate cards in order to combo. Having a Meddling Mage naming an anti-hate piece (like Abrupt Decay) with a Counterbalance only makes it so they can't use Abrupt Decay to destroy your CB. They can Reverent Silence, they can Wipeaway, and they can just play around it with cards like Turnabout, Time Spiral, and Diminishing Returns. If you have two hate pieces, make them have two answers.
Agreed, apologies if the way I stated that was confusing - you would only name decay / wipe away when Mage is the second hate permanent you land, usually along with CB/Top, another mage on a combo piece, or cannonist. Elves and TES, which I was thinking of when I wrote that, have very few outs to Counterbalance, almost just Decay. Usually, yes, you just name more combo pieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Even though I am not playing it, I like Humility a lot against anything with Show and Tell. The reason I run Supreme Verdict has to do with the difficulty of resolving a four mana spell against an aggro deck that plays both Daze and Spell Pierce. That is more relevant to my deck though. All the people with RIP main do not need to worry as much about RUG and BUG. Maybe in that case the swap would make sense.
That makes some sense. With RIP I don't feel like I need another wrath against BUG and RUG, as RIP shuts down Goyf and downgrades Deathrite and Mongoose significantly. It's not clear to me that you even need a 4th anti-men card in the main of the RIP lists, but a Humility is probably a fine choice if you want one.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Elves can GSZ => Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Elves can GSZ => Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver.
Yes, I'm quite aware they have other outs. We can actually counter GSZ or pridemage however.
Edit: While I'm thinking about it, has anyone else tried beating Liliana with a pile of Celestial Purges? Is it just too narrow?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Yes, I'm quite aware they have other outs. We can actually counter GSZ or pridemage however.
Edit: While I'm thinking about it, has anyone else tried beating Liliana with a pile of Celestial Purges? Is it just too narrow?
Purges
Given the correct Meta, which is full of BUG + Jund + Goblin, then I don't think it's too narrow for Celestial Purges. My guess for not-running is that people tend to want to get more hosing in the SB as suppose to have a SB card to 1-for-1 opponent's card. People tend to favor cards like Humility, when resolved, does a lot.
MM
Speaking from personal experience, I used to run MM. Every time I do, I end up having to spend resource to protect it from being REB/Pyro-ed. This is the same reason I hate Detention Sphere and stick to Oblivion Ring.
Against BUG/Jund
I get another idea, if your Meta is full of BUG/Jund, how does Darksteel Myr sound?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
what is usually your sideboard plan against Esper? do you keep whole combo in? what do you take in/out?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Purges
Given the correct Meta, which is full of BUG + Jund + Goblin, then I don't think it's too narrow for Celestial Purges. My guess for not-running is that people tend to want to get more hosing in the SB as suppose to have a SB card to 1-for-1 opponent's card. People tend to favor cards like Humility, when resolved, does a lot.
MM
Speaking from personal experience, I used to run MM. Every time I do, I end up having to spend resource to protect it from being REB/Pyro-ed. This is the same reason I hate Detention Sphere and stick to Oblivion Ring.
Against BUG/Jund
I get another idea, if your Meta is full of BUG/Jund, how does
Darksteel Myr sound?
Purge
Makes sense. I'll try purge out next Wednesday at my LGS.
MM
I can see that being an issue against red show and tell decks, but prettymuch nobody else has REBs that I want the mage against. If they REB him they can't REB your counterspell or vice versa. It's fine to spend resources to keep your man that prevents them from doing anything.
Darksteel Myr
It doesn't interact with Liliana, which is the real problem card in the matchups. I fail to see how it does anything at all actually.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
what is usually your sideboard plan against Esper? do you keep whole combo in? what do you take in/out?
I like the whole combo against Esper. RiP still has a lot of value and they don't have too many ways to interact with Helm or Energy Field. I've been boarding out FoW and Swords to make room for REB, Pierces, Venser, and Elspeth. I don't think Entreat is that great a wincon here. You should be able to win the Jace war and/or have enough counter magic to make Helm stick. Don't walk into Vindicate though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Purge
Makes sense. I'll try purge out next Wednesday at my LGS.
I've been trying one Purge in my SB for a while now and it's been really great. I've thought about bumping it up to two because it is live nearly 100% of the time against Jund, but it is fairly narrow not to mention that I don't want my Jund game to be too reactive. As long as you can deal with an early Liliana, the best way to deal with later game Lilianas is to just win with a big Entreat or Helm.
Also, with regards to Show and Tell... is leaving in the Helm combo too cute? It isn't the worst to be able to drop Helm off their Show and Tell and just win. The downside being that it is a lot of space that doesn't do much if they go for Sneak Attack.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Concerning Purge....
It really has applications all across the field, these are the ones that come to my mind just now:
1) Jund --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bloodbraid
2) other BG/x Decks --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles
3) Burn --> Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, other random-creatures.
4) Sneak Attack --> Sneak Attack
5) Goblins --> all Goblins, mostly for Lackey though
What other applications can you guys think of? I really might test this as a 1-2 of...., though I'd prefer this card to be like REB/BEB - counter or destroy :D
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Concerning Purge....
It really has applications all across the field, these are the ones that come to my mind just now:
1) Jund --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bloodbraid
2) other BG/x Decks --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles
3) Burn --> Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, other random-creatures.
4) Sneak Attack --> Sneak Attack
5) Goblins --> all Goblins, mostly for Lackey though
What other applications can you guys think of? I really might test this as a 1-2 of...., though I'd prefer this card to be like REB/BEB - counter or destroy :D
Greetings
Do not forget Sulfuric Vortex.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Concerning Purge....
It really has applications all across the field, these are the ones that come to my mind just now:
1) Jund --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bloodbraid
2) other BG/x Decks --> Confi, Shaman, Liliana, Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles
3) Burn --> Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, other random-creatures.
4) Sneak Attack --> Sneak Attack
5) Goblins --> all Goblins, mostly for Lackey though
What other applications can you guys think of? I really might test this as a 1-2 of...., though I'd prefer this card to be like REB/BEB - counter or destroy :D
Greetings
Also strong against Tombstalker out of BUG Delver
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Also, with regards to Show and Tell... is leaving in the Helm combo too cute? It isn't the worst to be able to drop Helm off their Show and Tell and just win. The downside being that it is a lot of space that doesn't do much if they go for Sneak Attack.
I personaly keep combo in, it works quite good against show&tell. Just play early RIP and keep one open mana for Helm activation.
against SneakAttack - they often try to play SneakAttack via Show&Tell first, so it may works too
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello guys as a long time Miracle player I was thinking about taking this deck to GP in France next month. I was trying Helm version but I did not like it at all so I switched back to creature "heavy" version. I hope it is no spam - I was doing with this very well lately.
I like Batteskull a lot. Together with SDT it is the best card in the deck. Without Mystic I felt that tribal matchups were not very good (CB sucks, they draw a lot of card and they can be very fast) Batterskull forces opponent to overcommit and Terminus WILL show up since I play 4. I never really liked Entreat the Angels since I could never really find them when I needed.
Otherwise it is a standart list that should beat combo. To battle creatures and pesky permanents I have one EE maindeck.
I think 23 lands is the correct number since when we loose it is usually due to manascrew. (
I am not sure about sideboard yet. I like Blood Moon a lot. Against Jund, Maverick, tribal I want to exchange counters for Elspeth, Humility, Jitte kind of thing.
Miracle Blade
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, 2.0
3 SDT
1 EE
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra (23 lands)
Side:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
1 Disenchant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 EE
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, KE
1 Umezawa's Jitte
All comments are welcomed!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koplinchen
Hello guys as a long time Miracle player I was thinking about taking this deck to GP in France next month. I was trying Helm version but I did not like it at all so I switched back to creature "heavy" version. I hope it is no spam - I was doing with this very well lately.
I like Batteskull a lot. Together with SDT it is the best card in the deck. Without Mystic I felt that tribal matchups were not very good (CB sucks, they draw a lot of card and they can be very fast) Batterskull forces opponent to overcommit and Terminus WILL show up since I play 4. I never really liked Entreat the Angels since I could never really find them when I needed.
Otherwise it is a standart list that should beat combo. To battle creatures and pesky permanents I have one EE maindeck.
I think 23 lands is the correct number since when we loose it is usually due to manascrew. (
All comments are welcomed!
You're pointing out the obvious, nothing new. The bottom line comes down to: Do you want to MD multiple copies of Rest in Peace? Perhaps you have not realized the importance of utilizing graveyard as resource or denying opponent to do so in Legacy. This is Legacy we are discussing here.
Esper-Blade uses Lingering Souls + Snapcaster Mage + Academy Ruin to fully utilize graveyard, unlike your version.
Rest in Peace fully denies graveyard, no more goyf, vanilla Deathrite Shaman.
These are not news; your Miracle-Blade simply takes middle-of-road, not utilizing graveyard nor denying graveyard effectively. No MD Rest in Peace? Play Joe Losset (oarsman)'s version. MD Rest in Peace? copy off any tournament winning list. That's your best bet.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thank you.
I tried to play 3 Rest in Peace maindeck. I really hated it. It was awfully as I posted a few pages back. It is good in theory. But practicaly there are so many decks that do not care or care only a little, you do not draw it in time, they can destroy it - too clunky for me. I don't want to bash this version - it has it's pros - nothing personal (possibly I am wrong) but I just feel Snapcaster/Batterskull will do more. I wanted to know what do you think.
Unlike Esper - you have stable manabase, CB, Top, Miracle - you are better control deck and you do not care about grave at all.
Tom
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koplinchen
Thank you.
I tried to play 3 Rest in Peace maindeck. I really hated it. It was awfully as I posted a few pages back. It is good in theory. But practicaly there are so many decks that do not care or care only a little, you do not draw it in time, they can destroy it - too clunky for me. I don't want to bash this version - it has it's pros - nothing personal (possibly I am wrong) but I just feel Snapcaster/Batterskull will do more. I wanted to know what do you think.
Unlike Esper - you have stable manabase, CB, Top, Miracle - you are better control deck and you do not care about grave at all.
Tom
If they are able to destroy it, it's still 1-for-1. If they try to target it with anything other than Abrupt Decay, you should be able to protect it.
So many decks that do not care?
Jund - Goyf, Punishing Fire
RUG Delver - Mongoose, Goyf
Storm - Flame from the past
Esper-blade - Lingering souls, Snapcaster mage
Nic-Fit - Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness
Not to mention the obvious: gredge, reanimator
There're only a few frequently played decks that have little interaction with graveyard: Goblin, Merfolk. Even decks that run Emrakul (show and tell) have little interaction w/ graveyard. It's not "in theory" from your words, it's been tested in large tournaments such as SCG Open; and competent players, who actually post feedback here, are able to top 8 with MD Rest in Peace.
In your current form of Miracle-Blade, even with Stoneblade package, it's not a sure way to beat aggro match-up. Even against Goblin, Terminus does very little, smart Goblin players can just block Batterskull with a goblin token and sac the token to deal damage to you via Seige-gang, no life gained in that scenario. Smart Goblin player just needs to hold onto one Matron in his hand to rebuild post-Terminus. The benefits you've gained from Batterskull might help you against RUG Delver, but it's not sufficient to take you deep into a larger tournament.
I have played Miracle Blade before. That route makes you want to splash black to play Lingering Soul. Then you realize you are just playing a weaker version of Esper-blade.
You said it yourself, you want to be a control deck, with the match-ups I have mentioned above, in which Rest in Peace can establish board control, do you actually think that you can be just as effective without Rest in Peace and with Stoneblade alone?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Jund - Goyf, Punishing Fire, Deathrite Shaman
RUG Delver - Mongoose, Goyf
Storm - Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual
Esperblade - Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Academy Ruins, Cabal Therapy
Nic-Fit - Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness, Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer!
BUG - Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Tombstalker
Loam - Life from the Loam, Knight of the Reliquary, Punishing Fire, Raven's Crime
Death and Taxes - Joten Grunt
High Tide - Time Spiral (though this is very marginal)
Elves - Deathrite Shaman
Not to mention the obvious: Dredge, Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, and anything trying to abuse Goblin Welder or Crucible of Worlds
You are missing quite a few cards from these MUs that are also affected.
The only MUs that I can think of where nothing is affected are the mirror, Show and Tell, MUD, Fish, and Goblins. Of those, Fish and Goblins both lose to Energy Field. (though sometimes you have to protect it from Goblin's REBs... but it's great watching them flip REBs to their Ringleaders...)
High Tide, Show and Tell, and MUD are the only MUs besides the mirror where I would board out most or all of my RiP... and Show and Tell is debatable because of the ability to instantly win off their Show and Tell if you have RiP and one untapped land in play and access to a Helm.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
You are missing quite a few cards from these MUs that are also affected.
The only MUs that I can think of where nothing is affected are the mirror, Show and Tell, MUD, Fish, and Goblins. Of those, Fish and Goblins both lose to Energy Field. (though sometimes you have to protect it from Goblin's REBs... but it's great watching them flip REBs to their Ringleaders...)
High Tide, Show and Tell, and MUD are the only MUs besides the mirror where I would board out most or all of my RiP... and Show and Tell is debatable because of the ability to instantly win off their Show and Tell if you have RiP and one untapped land in play and access to a Helm.
RIP is even fine vs high tide, as it limits them to 4 total tides, and they won't rebuy anything off of time spiral. Minor but not irrelevant. RIP always amazes me by how relevant it is even when you don't expect it. Legacy is very graveyard dependent these days, and if you don't maindeck RIP I would still pursue a trinket mage or enlightened tutor package with at least one maindeck Relic.
Edit:
I'm seeing Pyroclasm pop up in a lot of sideboards on TC decks, wondering what matchups that is for. Anyone know?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
RIP is even fine vs high tide, as it limits them to 4 total tides, and they won't rebuy anything off of time spiral. Minor but not irrelevant.
Yeah, it definitely isn't irrelevant, but I have enough additional combo hate to bring in that I can trim a bit of the fat. I'd much rather Entreat at the end of their turn anyways than try to tap 4 for Helm during mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I'm seeing Pyroclasm pop up in a lot of sideboards on TC decks, wondering what matchups that is for. Anyone know?
I would guess that non-RiP builds use it as an additional answer to most of Jund's creaturebase. It is also costed such that it can be Snapcaster'd back. I suppose it also has some game against Geist. Odd that they wouldn't just use Rough/Tumble though. Maybe being able to bring it in against Delver is more relevant than hitting your own Cliques. Either way, it feels unnecessary for RiP builds.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I have played Miracle Blade before. That route makes you want to splash black to play Lingering Soul. Then you realize you are just playing a weaker version of Esper-blade.
Except SFM is a clock compared to RiP+Helm. Yes, RiP with Helm can win instantly, but that also means piecing both parts together. With the SFM/BS package you just slap down a Mystic and you're all set. Miracles loses pretty badly to 12-post because of a lack of clock. There's also the fact that Abrupt Decay affects the SFM/BS combination much less than RiP/Helm.
Both methods has their merits.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Except SFM is a clock compared to RiP+Helm. Yes, RiP with Helm can win instantly, but that also means piecing both parts together. With the SFM/BS package you just slap down a Mystic and you're all set. Miracles loses pretty badly to 12-post because of a lack of clock. There's also the fact that Abrupt Decay affects the SFM/BS combination much less than RiP/Helm.
You are wrong.
Slap down a Mystic and you're all set? Are you kidding me? I've seen Goblin decks defeating Miracle Blade even with Batterskull on the table, post-Terminus. Is Batterskull powerful? Yes. Is SFM + Batterskull + Snapcaster Mage the universal solution in today's Meta? No. Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participants Legacy tournaments in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Just because typical Miracle deck would lose to all those "rampant/abundant" 12-post decks, that does Not mean SFM package is the solution. If you Really want to put your opponent on a clock, you should run Geist, not SFM package.
