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Howdy,
I wonder how UR/Delver list with Grim Lavamancer in sideboard and Treasure Cruise main does sideboard these two cards.
Do you guys side Treasure Cruise out when you bring Grim Lavamancer ? Because they are really anti-synergic and running both in the 60 seems like a non-sens.
Please let me know about it. Thanks :)
In the matchups where Lavaman is important, you're usually concerned about killing creatures rather than re-couping card advantage. It doesn't prove to be as big of a challenge to maintain both however, since UR Delver decks put a lot of cards into the graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Are people traditionally siding -1/-1 effects against this deck with good success? Id so does a transformational sideboard into rug delver make any sense? I haven't tested the gauntlet so not sure what the bad matchups are age how tuned the stock sideboard really is.
I ran U/R at my local legacy tournament yesterday, finished 3 -2.
My matchups were Enchantress, Punishing Jund, 2x Burn and Death and Taxes.
Enchantress: 1:2
G1 against Enchantress i dazed his t1 zenith and he didn't play anything else after that, swiftspears destroyed him.
After that i thought i was against Elves or Maverick and he held some crap hand, and boarded the wrong stuff ofc. G2 he smashed me with helm/RiP. G3 i got him to 1 life, then that big spaghetti monster said hello. I can say, this matchup is seriously NOT good for this deck.
Jund: 0:2
He had a Hand with 4 goyfs, and was able to get the fire engine running. Undoable.
G2 i had him to 4 life, when a charm raped my YP and 7 tokens, then lilly sacced my spear and afterwards i had no chance to get back in. I had no Submerges in sideboard, worst decision of my life. Without them, this matchup is absolutely horrible!
Burn: 2:0
I was way faster then him both games.
Death and Taxes: 2:0
I never though this is such a good matchup! Forked bolt is INSANE here!! Forked all threats, and delver and swiftspear raced. Second game, he didn't draw much stuff, and two Spears did ridiculous damage.
Burn: 2:1
First Game, i was faster then him. Second game, we both where at 1, and he topdecked a bolt, that i couldnt daze because of too much lands.
Third game was just retardet. Seriously, here the Deck went insane. 17 Damage from me in 1 Turn. 2 swiftspears -> Cruise+Gitaxian probe+Ponder+Ponder+Chain lightning = Profit.
Overall i can say, i LOVE this deck. Its ultra fast, but the Midrange Matchups are tough. Absolutely getting 2 Submerges in the Sideboard after that day. And also, Treasure Cruise is just beyond stupid. Seriously, who invented that card? Also, The swiftspears shined super bright. These buddies do ALOT of damage! Oh, and fetching on basics vs Burn feels soooo great :D
My list was:
4x Delver
4x YP
4x Swiftspear
4x Bolt
2x Forked Bolt
1x Chain lightning
4x Ponder
4x Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Treasure Cruise
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
2x Mouintain
2x Island
SB:
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Surgical extraction
1x Mizzium skin (tested this thing vs charm and decay, its kinda average)
2x Pyroblast
2x Blood moon
2x Grim Lavamancer
1x Price of Progress
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Smash to smithereens
I do think UR/Delver is the best deck to fit Treasure Cruise.Quote:
Originally Posted by kryllex
Lot of spells are played pro-actively and this synergize incredibly well with the creatures suites. (I mean, play a burn spell, make a token and get +1/+1 ?! All this for only R !)
Treasure Cruise give the deck gas all-game-long, which is like to stay in the few first turn (where the deck power is max) while advancing in the game.
It won't surprise me to see Treasure Cruise on the next B/R list for Legacy, but also in Modern and Vintage.
Modern is possible because Ancestral Visions is banned, including Glittering Wish to destroy turn 2 combo.
I don't see it getting the axe in legacy if Show and Tell and other nonsense is legal.
I'm having a bit of trouble knowing what to side out in this deck in fairer matchups. For instance, what do I side out/in vs fairer decks like BUG delver and B/W confidant?
Also, what matchups do I side out or change the balance of FoW and Daze on the play/draw?
I'm a fan of siding out Force game 2. If you're on the draw you should probably take out daze. In fair MUs I like siding in more aggressive cards and siding out countermagic.
What's your list?
Show and Tell is a symetric card that cost 3 mana. Treasure Cruise is a "draw 3" for only U.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
Resolving Treasure push you so much ahead, if you want a chance to stay "in game" you HAVE also to play Treasure in your deck.
I mean, it is power9 card 4x in a legacy deck. I really hope this card will be banned soon.
No. Its a Draw three for U+Delve 7. That`s quite a difference, since enemy Deathrite shamans or any other gravehate can prevent you from casting it.
I played in a championship saturday with 30 people, where about 7 people went with the new UR Delver Pyromancer list (Bob's) and I went with the old UR Burn with swiftspear, DTT and TC.
I WENT WITH THE UR BURN DECKLIST, NOT THE ONE WITH THE PYROMANCER! (just to be clear)
In the top8 there were me, 4 new UR Delver (total of 5 UR Delver, great result considering the density of UR Delver in general and in the top8), a UWr Delver, a BUG Delver and a Jund. This shows the power of the new Delver decklists after KTK in the meta.
Top4:
UR Delver Pyro (Really bad match for my list)
UWr Delver
UR Delver Burn
BUG Delver
I played with this list:
CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
COUNTER
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
CANTRIP
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Dig Through Time
BURN
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
LANDS
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
SIDEBOARD
2 Flusterstorm
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
Some considerations against the matchups:
Match 1: UR Delver Pyro
I got really scared in the first game, didn't have a chance to pull that off. When pyro sticks in the game for 2 turns, it's enough to make UR Burn never come back again.
Side in: 2 Fluster, 2 searing blaze, 2 pyroblast
Side off: 4 PoP, 2 FoW (I was on the play, so didn't side out dazes)
I don't really remember how were the second and third games, but they were a combination of flood and bad draws for the opponent. In the third game I remember having 3 creatures when he had 1 life, and he almost stole the game back with TC finding 2 answers but he couldn't blow the fetch as he only had 1 life, to answer the 3rd creature. UR Pyro is a pretty though match for UR Burn.
Match 2: D&T
First game was bizarre, I got to play guide on turn 1 and to answer every single creature of his with a bolt or chain lightning. Bought total of 6 lightnings, so he was never able to connect the Jitte
Side in: 3 Bridges, 2 searing blaze, 2 sulfuric vortex, 2 pithing needle
Side off: 4 Pop, 3 daze and 2 FoW (I was on the draw, daze didn't sound attractive)
Second game I got really scared when I couldn't answer his first mom, but then I bought Pithing needle out of ponder and before I cast it, he played his second mom. In some place this game I got to play sulfuric vortex, which made the race really tight as he had some beating creatures and also a Sword of fire and ice connecting, but a topdeck burn spell stole me the game when he was going to win.
Match 3: BUG Delver
First game was the easy kind of game, got several early threats, he could only answer few of them, Delver flying over Goyf and price of progress doing it's job
Side in: 3 Ensnaring Bridges, 2 Searing blazes, 2 Sulfuric Vortex and 2 Blood Moon if I'm not Mistaken.
Side out: 3 Dazes, 4 Fow and I don't recall what else
This game made me think the sideboard is really mana-heavy for a 18 lands deck...
Anyway, the game was some combination of me getting beat down in the beggining of the game and dropping a bridge. I almost lost to a DRS, but was able to burn it down and drop a second bridge. Burned him up until he died, in the end he showed me his hand with an abrupt decay, which wasn't enough to get rid of both bridges.
Game 4: ID
Game 5: ID
Top 8: Jund
Easy game, he got to play only 2 or 3 spells the whole game while goblin guide beat him. At some point he was able to thoughtseize PoP, but then the other burn spells made their job.
Side in: 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Blood moon, 2 Sulfuric Vortex and maybe 2 searing blaze (not really sure)
Side out: Fow, Daze and maybe something else
Got a guide hitting twice, then abruptly decayed in the beggining, vortex dropped on turn 3. When he was able to cast BLoodbraid Elf cascading, I answered with a bolt and a price for 8 damage, finishing him off even before they resolved. It's really each match.
Top4: UR Delver Pyro
They were 2 really ugly matches for me, first game I went with 2 PoP on the initial hand, but the other 5 cards made a cool first hand (better than a 6 cards hand, I thought), but was never able to brainstorm-shuffle them away, as my opponent had probe and didn't let the brainstorms resolve. I was always behind on the board and price was useless. Must have sounded really easy for my opponent.
Side in: 2 Pyroblast, 2 searing blaze, 2 flusterstorm
Side out: 4 PoP, 2 FoW
Game 2 I was also always behind in the match, and even he playing Pithing Needle naming Lavamancer when I had none, it wasn't enough "card advantage" to help me out of that. He got to resolve 2 TC and mine was Forced.
Some considerations about this:
Goblin guide gave a lot of card advantage to the opponents in the matches. Swiftspear is harder to kill as the enemy has to deal with some prowess shenanigans, may sound really dangerous when you attack with a 1/2 swiftspear against a, lets say, 3/4 or 4/5 goyf when you have cards in hand.
Definitely, swiftspear is better than goblin guide in this list. Even that being said, I think goblin guide AND swiftspear is still a good idea, when I played snapcaster it didn't seem like a real beating creature as when you play snapcaster the opponent usually is more advanced on the board, and goblin guide enters the battlefield hitting.
FoW and Daze are still great. Still, I think I will leave FoW on the sideboard, as in most games I played (80%) I sided it out in G2. I guess it's because there are so much Delver lists that people are scared of playing combo.
In the actual meta, forked bolt is GREAT as there are so much Delver lists (with also lava and pyromancer, DRS, SFM) and some D&T, at least here where I play. I'm thinking of throwing some on the 75, not really sure if in the 60 or 15. I guess it's great to have in the 60, as even if the match isn't really good for forked bolt, it's still a sorcery shock.
I was really pissed off with the UU on manacost of DTT, I think TC is really better in this list, as DTT has 2 bottlenecks: the 2 blue mana and 6 cards in the graveyard. The fact that TC has only the 7 Delve issue, makes it much better to be played.
DTT AND Searing Blaze was really a bad idea. I got stuck with both in hand one time, because of the 2 colored mana to cast both. But I think I will just replace the 2 DTT I had with TC, and Searing Blaze will be really good again. Also, I think it's better than searing blood as the target doesn't need to be killed in order to deal the damage and also most of the times there is an "unblowed" fetchland on the battlefield.
Sideboard:
Flusterstorm: even though there are only few (1 or 2) combos on the meta, flusterstorm will still remain on the list, it's great against any combo deck, good against burn, UR Pyro (where I didn't have much think to side in actually)
Ensnaring Bridge: Really GREAT against big creature decks, and I also side in against BUG, JUND, UWr, D&T, Elves... May be sided in against anything that kills you with creatures, as you may just drop the bridge and rely on the comming burn spells to beat your opponent. By far, the best SB card for this deck. As I'm taking off FoW to the sideboard (don't know what to take off yet), I'm bringing more burn to the MD.
Searing Blaze: Great card advantage against small creatures matchup, but I'm actually thinking of replacing it with forked bolt as it's less situational and may even kill 2 creatures and be used anytime (you could cast a sorcery), not depending on landfall AND on the opponent having creatures
Pyroblast: Really good, but not that great. I mean, works well when it works, but i'm not sure if that's enough to deserve a SB slot
Sulfuric Vortex: Great against any white decks (nowadays they are all SFM-based OR Control - Miracles) and other kind of control decks. Definitely deserve the SB slot, but not more than 2 IMO as it's a 3 CMC spell
Pithing Needle: great against D&T and Miracles. It won me a game against D&T when I dropped it against 2 mom's, and also unables the core Sensei's Divining Top on Miracles. There are other decks where it's good against, but in these 2 cases it's just exceptional. Great against S&T too, naming sneak and show. But it's kinda irrelevant now in my meta (probably will be relevant again when people come back with the combo decks again)
Blood Moon: It sounds like a real game winning strategy, but I didn't really have the chance to cast it as I with it only 2 games (the only 2 matches where it was worth bringing I did 2-0). Also, the fact that Jund is almost a sure win (until today I didn't lose a single match to it, reeeeeally slow and a lot of non-basics to pay the price for) and BUG is a OK match makes me wonder if Blood Moon is worth being on the sideboard, as Price of Progress usually steals the game against decks that it's worth bringing.
Final considerations: Swiftspear is really better than Guide, even in this list. Still, I don't see any other better creature to play than Guide. I thought about some copies of Grim Lavamancer, but it usually doesn't work (gets plowed or bolted) when guide usually strikes at least for 2, it's really mana intensive in the long term and now with TC it doesn't see much cards in the grave to burn people down with.
DTT sounds great, but the UU makes me think TC is better than it. The effect is really better (I felt much safer buying 2 of 7 cards than just buying 3), but the 6 delve is already a bad situation, having to have 2 blue mana makes it even worse to cast.
Price remains, it's just that good. Against decks that it's not great against, well, my list brings average 7 cards from the SB each time, so it may just be sided out. It did hurt me when I got stuck with 2 PoP against UR Delver that searched only for basics, but I'm aware of it's greeeeeeat effect against other decks.
The only thing about my sideboard is that I will take out the blood moon's and other 2 cards that I still dont know yet to put FoW in the sideboard. Not sure of what I will put on the MD to replace FoW, but it will probably be some burn spell (maybe forked bolt as it's great against the decks in my meta).
Overall, even though I got 3rd place out of 30, the deck seemed a little flat in most of the games, as against D&T I got lucky twice, UR Delver flooded once and got bad draws on the other game, BUG is an on match and Jund is a really easy match
So I've been having some trouble against a friend's Junk confidant deck, and I'm having a hard time figuring out if I'm boarding wrong or it's just a bad matchup. When they expect combat tricks and swiftspear pumps they almost never trade the goyf, and by the time he plays it it's usually too big for bolt. In addition, batterskull and jitte are impossible to deal with without smash to smithereens, and I don't want to overcompensate by adding more than two because it's sometimes just a dead card.
So against similar fair, grindy stoneforge decks with lots of removal, what is the general board plan? Not just what to board in, but what to board out as well.
I don't always lose, but when I win it's generally just a nut draw, anytime I don't get perfectly ideal cantrips and deck manipulation I feel like I lose any chance at winning pretty quickly.
I haven't exactly figured it out yet but I usually bring in Vortex to stop the lifegain, Null Rod to stop Jitte, plus they can't bounce batterskull, and the 2 smash. Against Esper I also bring in Pyroblast to counter their TCs and TNNs. I'm not 100% sure I want them if I know they're not running TC yet to be honest though. At some point I also experimented with Lavamancer in those matchups, but I don't think thats right.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
It's a ton of stuff to stop their equipment, but I think the focus should be in killing them as fast as possible and those are the things that get in the way. I'm trying 2 PoP in the sb now too, and I imagine those help a ton in the 3color midrangy MU, but I haven't been able to try them out yet.
Deciding what to take out has been hard for me. I usually side out most of my forces, if not all, some amount of dazes since the game tends to go somewhat long, and I've tried cutting one TC or probe too.
Maybe this is 100% wrong, but I haven't been doing that bad.
I think junk is the WGB deck, isn't it? There isn't blue in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
As it is a stoneforge deck, it should be sided in Sulfuric Vortex to stop the lifegain and assure you the game will not be long. I use to not care too much about bob, as it increases their clock against burning decks. And yes, PoP will give you a hell of an advantage!!
In my SB there's pithing needle, I suppose it's better than null rod as it may also name stoneforge if he searches for batterskull (with null rod he would just not be able to bounce it back)
Against goyf it's good to side in submerge if you have it. You should keep in mind that what holds him back should be the chump blocking of YP's tokens. So he should be priority number one for you to keep him alive!
BTW, if he never trades goyf, try hitting in for some damage. Bluff sometimes works, and sometimes your swiftspears aren't that important and may be worth the risk. Just don't do it if your line of play shows him that you don't have that much spells in hand. And also, keep in mind that bluffing against a 4/5 goyf is kinda risky...
You can also side in grim lavamancer against jund and junk
Well, he said "against similar fair, grindy stoneforge decks with lots of removal" so I was giving a general response, not specifically about Junk itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer
With long I meant long enough so that they can play around daze without that much trouble most of the time. Maybe taking taking dazes out is wrong but if they are already playing around it, maybe it's worth it.
I've done that before, but I've named SFM and then lost to a jitte a bunch of times so I stopped since I reasoned that I almost always want to name Jitte, since even with a vortex in play they can kill your small dudes easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer
Yeah, I was going to say that too, most of the time killing goyf is just not something you really need to do if you have an active pyromancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer
I'd love to hear what you take out in this matchups if you don't mind.
The thing about SFM is that you should name SFM only if he picks up batterskull IMO, since he won't be able to play it in the same turn. If he searches for Jitte, you name jitte as even if he casts that will not be useful anymore. The only way jitte could connect in this situation is if he has 6 or more available mana, which is kinda rare to happen (even then it would only connect once until you name it with pithing needle)Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
Would you mind posting your list? It's just that I don't usually play the Pyro list, I'm more of a burn guy, it would be easier to know what to take off. But usually, I take off daze and FoW against fair decks, but it will depend on your list.
Show and Tell is not a symmetrical card and in most games where the S&T player successfully resolves it the game goes over in their favor shortly thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
The player who casts it always has at least one of his plans in hand. The opponent is staring at a Monastery Swiftspear, Goblin Guide or Delver of Secrets as their play unless it is game 2 or later and they have drawn into one of the few pieces of hate they brought in from the sideboard.
Actually S&T is symmetrical, because being symmetrical implies that the effect counts for both players. That is extremely relevant, as there are a lot of decks which play some hate like ensnaring bridge, ashen rider. And the problem about that is that the player that is playing against S&T gets to attack with the fatty even before the S&T player. When that happens to S&T, it's almost always game over.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Most of the time it just doesn't feel symmetrical, but it is.
Sure, my list is:Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
17 lands
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Spell Pierce
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pierces should probably be Flusterstorms, but I just built this deck after Bob's win and I have a decently big tournament tomorrow (my first one with a blue deck in Legacy :eek: ) and I haven't managed to find them yet.
Against Miracles, is it right to cut Dazes and Forked Bolts for 2 Pyroblasts, 2 Vortex, Null Rod, Needle and one Pierce? I haven't been able to play enough against it and I'm not too sure how to face that MU besides trying to stop CounterTop, try not to get blown out by terminus and land a Vortex.