Ugh......any more than 61 cards and it's not a real deck. (Unless it's a Battle of Wits deck)
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Ugh......any more than 61 cards and it's not a real deck. (Unless it's a Battle of Wits deck)
This deck looked OK to a first glance but then... what? Are you really trying to make Deadguy worse than it already is? Please tell me you made a mistake in posting and that isn't your actual list... As mentioned above, no goyf, not 60 cards, and other glaring problems make this a hideous pile.
There's 62 cards actually. My mistake, I think I miscounted that wasn't intentional :wink:
-2 Gerard's Verdict. there
There's no mistake. This is what I was planning on running. deckcheck, there's been lists in the pasts running "No Goyf" using Jotun Grunt that have been successful. I was gonna maindeck 1x Deed, but my plan was to have 3 extra for SB against some matchups, that was my idea splashing green, but I can always remove... I noticed one player who T8 ran a single Deed in his list, thought that was a descent idea.
I'd appreciate some constructive criticism. I already explained my deck plan, to disrupt opponent as much as possible and overtake them with CA while shutting down their gy as well.
Grunt seems ok, I just feel like if you're going to extend your mana to include Bayous, Goyf is better. Grunt is too easy to play around for Reanimator/Survival (plus against Survival, the cards you give them will be very much live), and it's too slow to matter against Dredge. Only good thing is that it will give Lands players a headache and consistently control Goyf/Terravore size, but if you run Goyf this hurts you, and Goyfs will eat up Grunts unless you've had a couple turns to set it up.
I would suggest cutting the Scullers for Goyfs, maybe 4 Goyf/2 Grunt. If you like the Grunt you can put 2 more in the board, it will definitely help Bant matchups and be a thorn in the side for GY decks, but it shouldn't replace regular GY hate since it's so slow and not instant-speed.
Ok, constructive criticism, where to start...
Don't splash G if you aren't willing to play Goyf. Just because a list has succeeded "in the past" doesn't mean it will today, or even that it is superior in any way. A singleton Deed is also likely to be ineffective.
Inquisition is just poor here. There is no real reason not to run Thoughtseizes. Always take their best card.
Grunts are solid, 2-3 is correct. But I think you may be overestimating their power. Try running this deck against the Tier 1's and I think you'll see what I mean. The ability is very strong, but it can be slow, and it can also be played around. As your best man in the deck, he also wears a big fat target, and without countermagic he is hard to protect. Expected to see him Plowed. Often.
Without Vampire Nighthawks you probably don't have a legit chance against Zoo or Tribal. Vindy is a terrible answer to Aether Vial.
I probably have more thoughts, but that's it for now.
I forgot he wasn't running Nighthawks. Your creature suite should be something like:
4 Goyf
4 Bob
2-4 Nighthawk
2-4 Gatekeeper
Thanks for the feedback.
I have a playset of Nighthawks, could deffinitely throw him in. Don't own any Goyfs atm <insert frown> but I'll do my best to see if I can borrow a set. If I'm not able at least for the next week, I'll unsplash green
I'll maybe cut back a couple Scullers... I think I only ran 2x last time anyways, but I liked him, he did good taking out their removal and providing a stick :smile: I'll play test a little, like you mentioned I might just end up taking 'em all out :wink:
I was considering trying it out, I used thoughtseize last time... the life loss sorta started to become a lot, against some decks that splashed red too, I figured I'm packing so much card removal I could spare some life, but I'll test and if it just sucks I'll go back to seize.Quote:
Inquisition is just poor here. There is no real reason not to run Thoughtseizes. Always take their best card.
mm... well, I shouldn't think to see that much like you said. He'd just about always come out after the initial disruption, and if I can't take out their removal effectively with sculler, seize/inquisition, hymns, it seems that that would be more a failure on my part, ya know.Quote:
As your best man in the deck, he also wears a big fat target, and without countermagic he is hard to protect. Expected to see him Plowed. Often.
I deffinitely agree with this... I think maybe upping to 2x Jitte with Nighthawk would be pretty helpful, what you think?Quote:
Without Vampire Nighthawks you probably don't have a legit chance against Zoo or Tribal. Vindy is a terrible answer to Aether Vial.
Now this thread has actually got me thinking... If I were to play Deadguy these days, it might look something like this:
Men (18)
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Gear (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Disruption (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Sword
3 Vindicate
Mana (21)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
SB (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke//Ghostly Prison
I'm not totally sold on the SB yet, it needs testing of course. In theory it seems solid at shoring up the deck's bad matchups, Counterbalance/Bant in particular. If you expect more ANT, you'd probably want to fit in 2-3 Duress, if you expect more Tribal, you obv. want the 4th Plague, and Choke could come out for Ghostly Prison. Anyhow, it's more like a suggestion than a solid list.
The maindeck is strong, flexible, and decent against Aggro. You disrupt them, you get down a man, and then you get Jitte on that man ASAP. You should be beating them both in the ground and in the air, while gaining a good amount of life. Bob is an asset in this deck - not a requirement. Board him out in matches where he's no good.
I like it, it actually looks very close to the one I updated... but I see Stoneforge Mystics, that's an awesome idea! Can't believe I never thought of that, I just might go ahead and copy that now heh. :wink:
I'm glad you threw in Stronghold, too, I found it to be really helpful late-game. Let me know how it works having 4-colorless sources, I went 2x wastes so I wouldn't get mana screwed so let me know how that works for you.
Sure you wouldn't maybe cut back like -1 Hawk, -1 Gatekeeper for like +2 Verdict? I guess they could always be SB, I just love the multiple 2-for-1's to shut people down, Verdicts deffinitely nowhere near Hymn but I'd generally follow up with a verdict once they're down to 2-3 cards in hand making it more painful. In rare situations late game, you can target yourself with it discarding 2 lands to stay alive... meh, all around a descent backup hymn.
Funny enough, my SB was very similar lol. I also ran 2x Extirpate, 3x Kgrip, 3x Plague, Voids... crazy, only difference is I threw in Sadistic Sacraments against some of those oddball matchups... maybe like Lands, Enchantress, or some Combo. Never needed to use them yet, not gonna lie, so couldn't really tell you how effective lol.
I'm glad you liked the list. I should have said, Deadguy was my first real Legacy deck, so I've been playing around with it for a while now...
I think 4 colorless is OK in a 3 color deck. Any more than that, and you might start losing to your own manabase. It is possible that this deck needs 22 lands in a meta with a lot of wastelands, and that would probably be, -1 Nighthawk, +1 plains. Gatekeeper I see as too important against Reanimator and Bant decks in particular. Edict effects are really helpful right now.
As to Verdict, I have played it over the years, of course. But I have to say I don't think it makes the cut anymore. Not in a world where Thoughtseize is the best discard spell. Letting them choose the discards is too risky for a deck like this, that only wants to disrupt key cards from their hand and then beat them down really hard. This is basically a beatdown deck, never forget that if you play my list. Play only enough of the discard to stop yourself from losing to their opening hand, and then play your best creatures every turn till you get Jitte online. If you draw into a hymn and get a good chance to cripple them again late game, that's great. But only if your men are in place and you at least have board parity.
Honestly I've given serious thought to cutting Hymn altogether, as Inquisition is a decent backup to Thoughtseize (but NOT a replacement for it). This deck really, really wants to disrupt on the first turn with a 1 mana discard to take out the most threatening card they have, unless you have a jucy wasteland target to cut off their mana. Overall Hymn may simply be too good to cut as a 2-for-1 in a deck that badly needs good card advantage.
IMO this is the real reason for running Stoneforge Mystic. Not only is it Jitte 3-4, but it is great CA! You get a body and your deck's best finisher for 2 mana. 2-for-1's make this deck come alive in the mid to late game, but you need to be careful how many you run. This deck is already seriously clogged at the 2 drop and is in danger of becoming too slow. That's why I don't think Verdict is efficient enough to play - because Hymn is already borderline in my book, and that card is just so much worse than Hymn.
If you decide to test a similar list, let me know how it turns out.
Edit: I had one other kinda crazy idea, but it makes the deck a bit more WG-centered: Knight of the Reliquary over Nighthawk as your big 3 drop. That takes this deck in more of an aggro-rock direction, but in theory the ability to tutor lands should be at least as strong here as it is in the Bant decks, and probably more powerful than in Zoo. Finding Volrath's Stronghold is a pretty back-breaking play. You get other spicy choices like Bojuka bog and Karakas as well, to make Reanimator's life totally miserable. Just a thought I had.
Mystical jackass - If you are going to run with sinkholes for land destruction I think its in your best interest to go all out tempo orientated. I would begin testing something like this
Lands -21
The usual + 4 wastelands
Creatures- 13
4x Bob
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Nyxathid
Instant- 4
4x Swords
Sorcery-21
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Inquisition
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
2x Grim discovery
I havn't done any testing with something like this but if I did I would be thinking about :
1. Do I need smother?
2. Can I make use of reanimate (I put grim discovery in to add to the land destruction package but reanimate is a tempo stealer)
3. Is land destruction working out? lol
Really all I'm 100% sure on is it doesn't make any sense to run sinkhole without the full 4 wastelands
Great Feedback again. I'ma shoot for something like Lord_Cyrus' and see how that runs, I suppose. If I can't get ahold of goyfs.. might have to modify a bit, ironically I own exactly 2x Nyxathid lol, that would make a desc backup plan.
I hear what you're saying about the wastelands Iare. I guess I'm still a little skeptical running a full playset... I lost two games the last time in game 3 where I literally lost to myself lol (mana screwed 'cause I couldn't get the colors till too late, and I had a god hand one of the times, just a sucky way to lose).
Correct me, I may be wrong, but would the better play usually be something like...
Turn1: Swamp, Thoughtseize/Top
Turn2: Fetch/Scrubland, Sinkhole
Turn3: Confidant/Hymn, Wasteland
I may be incorrect, but running 4x Wastes, increasing the chance having to lead with it, be the not as good play?
Iare, you have some good points. I've been unhappy with the power level of the 2CC spells in this deck for a while - Hymn and Sinkhole are both very old cards that simply lose in pure efficiency to newer cards/strategies. Sinkhole is a fairly unique effect in Magic as a 2CC stone rain, but in a format of fetchlands, brainstorm, ponder, Sensei Top, etc., it is reasonable to ask how well any "stone rain" holds up to its 4-of slot in the maindeck. It's simply not as easy to manascrew people as it once was, and even Stifle, which when you think about it says "U, instant, spoil target fetchland" is talked about as being 'too weak' in a lot of modern decks.
Really, what I am concerned with is making this deck hit much harder and faster than it has in the past. It's too hard to compete with Zoo and Bant strategies when all their creatures rock yours, and when you can't disrupt them fast enough to prevent them establishing a strong board and a strong hand. Once they do that, their decks will just out-power ours, because they litterally beat us down so freaking hard. Goyf is a big part of this - it's hard to justify not playing him.
If you are then playing 3 colors, playing 4 wastelands can be a serious liability. If that then makes Sinkhole too poor to play, then it makes more logical sense to cut Sinkhole and go to something like this for the disruption suite:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Hymn
That's 12 strong discard spells, and 8 ways to hit them on turn 1, which is the most important thing you can do. Then the 3x wastelands become less of a real LD strategy, and more of a way to fight problem lands that would otherwise kill us. If you see the chance to color-screw them, obv. you should go for it, but that's not the primary objective anymore. The primary objective is to disrupt early, then play threats out until the opponent is overwhelmed. Additional disruption should only be played as necessary to support the beatdown strategy.
@Mystical: If you are going to use something like my list, here is the real gameplan against most decks except for combo:
Turn1: land, thoughtseize/inquisition
Turn2: land, goyf (or best 2 drop creature you have)
Turn3: land/wasteland, Best 2 or 3 drop you have in hand
Turn4: either smash their board or hand, with a hymn/vindy/sword, some combo thereof, and swing in with the team
turn4+: Same as turns 3 and 4: either add to your team, or support your team so they won't get outclassed. Keep up the beatdowns.
Obviously against combo (inc. reanimator) this changes: Instead you want to keep disrupting them until you feel confident they can't win, and then establish your beatdown clock.
My thoughts on Us vs Zoo:
Is it possible for a deck like ours to overwhelm Zoo off the bat? That was my only thought.Quote:
The primary objective is to disrupt early, then play threats out until the opponent is overwhelmed. Additional disruption should only be played as necessary to support the beatdown strategy.
I'm almost thinking Sinkhole would be very helpful in this matchup, I know you said mana denial more of a backup. But if you smash Zoo's mana base, the overpowered Nactl's and Kird Apes become lowly 1/1's early on. Zoo's game is always gonna be playing the biggest creatures, but our deck can win off pure CA. Our constant 2-for-1's and superior draw (Confidant, SDT?) should pull through as soon as we equilibrate after taking a few early hits...
- Gatekeeper
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Dark Confidant
- Hymn
...They're losing CA in the long run, they have amazing top deck but having more answers than they can top deck will make them lose in the long run. I run the card Drop of Honey in a G/W build, totally messes up decks like this early tempo buying you more time to affect them.
I agree a lot, this was my experience against some decks too, even played a Rock deck running Kitchen Finks and Troll Ascetic's, just too difficult for me to compete unless I can Sword.. Vindicdate was utterly useless, I lacked that "Big" creature like Goyf to turn the tide of the game. Despite what I said, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the hammer, the deck needs to hit much harder....... btw, don't run Exalted Angel, I ran 2x last time, although I won with it one game it 'caused me to murder myself off confidant another game lol.Quote:
Really, what I am concerned with is making this deck hit much harder and faster than it has in the past. It's too hard to compete with Zoo and Bant strategies when all their creatures rock yours, and when you can't disrupt them fast enough to prevent them establishing a strong board and a strong hand. Once they do that, their decks will just out-power ours, because they litterally beat us down so freaking hard. Goyf is a big part of this - it's hard to justify not playing him.
Hey! I'm new to these forums and I would like to post my build. Ive had alot of Top 8's playing this archtype at local Power9 tournaments. Since the printing of stoneforge mystic, and the pressense of so many decks that utilize/manipulate the graveyard, I have taken out Hymn from the maindeck. It may go back into the sideboard for my next tournament depending on how much merfolk or zoo I see.
Here is my current list:
Quote:
6 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malikir
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehallow Sculler
4 Path to Exile
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Pithing Needle
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
Sculler is great against control.. The downside to him is decks with heavy removal pretty much just turn him into castigate. If they have 2 removal spells in hand it is best to take whatever one is weakest. Hopefully they will use their better spell to kill him, getting their weaker spell back. Also, if you are really in a crunch, you can use instant speed removal in response to his "enter's the battlefield" trigger to remove something from their hand forever (Not very practical, but hey it works...).
Vampire Nighthawk is a powerhouse. He is better than Hippy these days. He can take out any creature (short of progentus, but that's why you have Gatekeeper), and when he connects it's a 4 point life swing.
When you play Vindicate, most of the time you will be destroying lands and tarmogoyfs. This card should be side boarded out against reanimator. Iona makes it a dead card.
Stoneforge Mystic is a champ. I hate drawing equipment without a body to put it on, this solves that problem. Also, when playing against blue, unless you are 100% possitive they have no countermagic, dont cast equipment, it's worth not attacking to vial in a sword or jitte.
Some people have told me they built my deck but opted dark ritual in favor of Hymn to Tourach. For me Hymn is to risky these days. there are alot of popular decks that manipulate the graveyards, and dont mind having their loam, iona, or bridge from belows sent to their yards. I love ritual for the turn 1 plays. Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant is the decks strongest turn 1 play. I dont think I could give it up.
Against Pro-Bant (Best matchup) you should control the board as much as possible while keeping a gatekeeper in hand, only for Progenitus. Wasteland the Dryad arbors, and path anything that moves until they have one creature and you can safely kill the big badass.
I could go on and on. this is my favorite deck these days. It's worst matchup is probably zoo and goyf sligh. Im tinkering around to flip it in the decks favor (Probably putting hymn in the board), so I'll let you know when I do.
@Uly Van Hammer: Welcome to the Source! That's not a bad 2 color build, but as you say, it is poor against Zoo. I'm wondering if we can really afford that liability anymore? PRO Bant is still a top deck, but it seems like it is less common at the top tables these days, where as Zoo is everywhere in the Top 16. Also, IMO Sculler isn't strong enough, only being good against decks that we should already be beating. And Jitte + Sword of Light and Shadow are probably the only 2 equips good enough to run, currently. This deck already has a draw engine: his name is Bob! (just saying) Also pro-white is probably more important on the whole.
@Mystical: Can we overwhelm zoo? Not if we keep thinking back in the stone ages, when B/W alone was good enough, and Nantuko shade and Hyppie were great creatures. The real answer? Play better men. The disruption package needs to be paired with the best possible creatures. Read on...
Ok so, I did some more theorycrafting (and some testing) about Knight of the Reliquary. And I've come to the conclusion that if you play 3 colors, he is probably just too damn strong not to play. Want to win the Zoo matchup? Blanking their Bolts as efficient removal goes a long way towards beating them in combat.
But in all seriousness, if you get to untap with a Knight in play at a decent lifetotal, you usually just win the game. I love Nighthawk, but can you really say that about him? The combination of massive beater/wall and card selection advantage through the use of the Knight's land searching is so strong that he can win games all by himself.
If we include Knight, then the deck starts to look and play quite differently; IMO for the better. When you start playing with creatures this powerful, cards like Sinkhole seem to just clog the hand and slow you down. They also make the mana more tricky, where you want BB on turn 2, and then GW on turn 3. That's unnecessarily hard in a format where Sinkhole needs a lot of good synergy to be effective.
I'm not sure this is really Deadguy anymore - but for the matchups I want to win, it is a step in the right direction. So I present to you...
Dark Knight (BWG Beatdown!)
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Karakas
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Wasteland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Plains
SB:
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Choke (or Ghostly Prison, as before)
You could also ideally play a Tabernacle in the side if you are expecting a ton of Tribal. But let's face it, not everyone can afford to buy that card.
Edit: Mana base might need work also. Some concern about kicking your Gatekeeper reliably, but testing should show if more black mana is needed.
Nice. I love the SB bogs, instant speed GY removal anyone!? :cool:
I'd considered splashing white for Pridemage at one point, so :1::g::w: seems like it could work... especially, considering once he gets out you got all the mana correction you need with him. Without getting too cute, I was almost thinking maybe run 1x Lightning Greaves, some synergy between Mystic and Reliquary to protect him and get to fetching/swinging quicker? What you think?
Dark Knight looks like a great new version, maybe like 3 steps ahead of where I'm at now lol.. I'ma go for the more traditional to test out next tourney then maybe I'll come back and take a look at the G/W splash a little more, aye.
Congratulations, you've managed to build The Rock, with an even less reliable manabase. If you really want to run that deck, I'd swap out Gatekeepers for Edicts in a heartbeat, and probably still kick that Savannah and those Heaths to the curb. You're also running 12 discard spells, which are going to turn into dead draws against Zoo pretty fast. Finally, you've opened yourself up to graveyard hate, which basically every deck in the format runs now. All that, and I don't see how you've improved the Zoo matchup at all. Most Zoo lists also have KotR and Goyf, plus a bunch of other creatures that are more efficient than yours, plus enough burn to win the creature war every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyrus
IMO, Deadguy should be about consistency and control. If you want to try to disrupt early then blitzkreig with a few big bombs, play Eva Green or Suicide Black. If you just want to beat Zoo, play AnT. If you want to play a mishmash of "good" cards, play The Rock. I don't agree that B/W is dead, and it certainly doesn't just roll over to Zoo. The Zoo matchup isn't great, but not really the toughest matchup, which is definitely combo, AnT moreso than Reanimator. I don't think my Bw list is perfect, but it's very consistent and has been doing well in tournaments so far.
Well if you notice I said the manabase needed work. I'm not claiming anything for this deck yet. And yes it could be described as a form of Aggro-Rock. I have played Eva Green in the past, as well as many different forms of The Rock, but I can't get past the fact that all these decks are still losing hard to the top tier strategies. I'm trying something different here, the major new element being KoTR.
If your B/W list is performing so great, I'd like to see it. It's also one thing to claim good tournament results, but quite another to back them up with hard data.
Honestly as much as I love both Deadguy and Rock style strategies (Deadguy Ale was my first Legacy deck), I wouldn't consider bringing either of those to a major tournament at the moment. Until I'm convinced that the strategy is once again viable, I'll stick to playing the decks I've been performing well with: Bant and Merfolk.
Ulysses,
Cut those god aweful Scullers already! Path over StP when you run Waste and Vindicate - nonbo ;)
Try CoP REd and Perish in your board - it really helps against Zoo. Is everyone afraid of flipping Tombstalker to Bob? What about Elspeth? Anyone tried BitterBlossom in place of Bob?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uly Van Hammer