[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by danyul

Chrandersen, and one other prominent Elves pilot (I forget who), mentioned in the comments of Ari Lax's Legacy Champs article that the UWR matchup wasn't something to be concerned about. I respectfully disagree and, as of right now, I have no idea how to beat that stupid deck. Maybe I'm just running cold against them but I think I'm something like 2-4 against that deck in sanctioned matches. When they tapout to play a Stoneforge on Turn 2, then we should be fine. But when they just slam a Delver and then sit on their mana, shooting all our dudes, it can quickly become a very sad day. Spencer suggested going for the Progenitus plan and, assuming we can make it to 4 mana, that seems reasonable. I will say that I think Scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card against them. I'm not yet sure if boarding in Discard or Abrupt Decay would be better. I should try to find a UWR pilot and jam some games against them. Definitely bring in a Scavenging Ooze and try to bait the STP so it can stick around a bit longer. I have been told by a couple UWR pilots that they take Stifle out against me, so you probably shouldn't fear them Stifling a Craterhoof in postboard games. But I don't know if that's common practice or anything.

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Definitely board in Decay; it kills everything relevant they have (particularly Engineered Explosives, gah) and their counters do nothing against it. In my experience Scavenging Ooze is a beast because there will be many dead creatures (mostly elves, sadly). Elves has some really great activated and triggered abilities so I don't know why they would board out Stifles. Fetch lands, Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, Regal Force for those few who still run it. It's rare to come against enough counters to be relevant, enough burn to be relevant, AND enough threats to provide a fast enough clock to kill you before you do stuff. But if that does somehow happen you're dead I guess. I don't recall ever losing to that deck with Elves though.

A couple of things about the UWR matchup:

1. I'm convinced it is the nightmare mu. I don't know how these other pilots say they never lose to it. I think Elves fares badly against the fair decks that pack more than 4 spot removal, multiple forms of repeatable removal/wipes, and counterspells. This is why Elves in Modern never took off with Beck (because every deck overloads on creature removal since every combo is creature-based).

2. Ruric Thar isn't a good answer. His downside really comes to play here as he gets taken out by STP or Bolt and Delver. I'm not going to waste a NO for 6 damage.

I am now convinced that No-Pro is the plan you want to be on post board for the UWR match. The hand attack a close second, b/c the abrupt decay plan is to reactionary for a blue deck with too many answers and a better late game plan IMHO.

Typically ( and if you saw me on camera you will know I believe this to a fault.....) delver decks side OUT daze on the draw. it isn't good. If you think your opponent is a traditional sideboarder, you only really have to worry about FOW/Pierce/Envelop. So when you are on the play you can expect to bait out their FOW with glimpse for value, not combo glimpse. Wait for an opening and go for a NO-Pro.

My board plan for UWR now is: +1No +1Pro +3 Cabal Therapy. -1 Hoof, -3 Visionary -1 Heritage.

I like how Elves players haven't reached a consensus on how to sideboard. It makes it more difficult for the opponent to know what to expect in G2/3.

Also, I think there's a lot of merit in mixing up your sideboard plans if two diverging plans seem "too close to call" with respect to their effectiveness.

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

Can't wait to read it!
Good thing that you were on Everyday Eternal podcast. Good laugh + Arnold impressions from the guys
Im packing my stuff for DC at the moment. Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

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Originally Posted by chinEsE girl

At least from my experience UWR has the same weaknesses as RUG, which is their reliance on delver to kill you before you can overcome their removal. Stuff like stoneforge or lavamancer are annoying, sure, but those things don't kill you very quickly. It's the god damn delvers that do. So I like to bring in all my decays, shaman, ooze, and any other anti-fair cards I have in my board. My game plan is just decay their delvers (sometimes lavamancer or equipment if need be) and just generate more cards than them over a longer game until they lose. From my perspective, UWR is just another delver deck, so if you can beat RUG consistently I feel that you should be able to beat UWR as well.

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I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

Can't wait to read it!
Good thing that you were on Everyday Eternal podcast. Good laugh + Arnold impressions from the guys
Im packing my stuff for DC at the moment. Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

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Cut a 1/1 split?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

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I am excited to read this!

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Originally Posted by Benjammn

A couple of things about the UWR matchup:

1. I'm convinced it is the nightmare mu. I don't know how these other pilots say they never lose to it. I think Elves fares badly against the fair decks that pack more than 4 spot removal, multiple forms of repeatable removal/wipes, and counterspells. This is why Elves in Modern never took off with Beck (because every deck overloads on creature removal since every combo is creature-based).

2. Ruric Thar isn't a good answer. His downside really comes to play here as he gets taken out by STP or Bolt and Delver. I'm not going to waste a NO for 6 damage.

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I think most Delver matchups are along similiar lines; however UWR is a particularly gruesome MU. I find myself putting in 3 Decays, 2 Pithing Needles, and Prog. I have Ruric main deck now, so I usually side him out; while he looks great against tempo I just haven't succeeded in using him in the MU. If on the play I'll consider some sort of discard, but I never liked discard on the draw vs UWR.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

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Can't wait.

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I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(

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You can play Meekstone.

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Im still trying to decide if im cutting 2 birchlore for 2 more Quirion Rangers!

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PLAY 4 QUIRION ! :)

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Originally Posted by blind

You can play Meekstone.



PLAY 4 QUIRION ! :)

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Meekstone is the shit vs delver decks. Only geists really gets to attack more than once. Delvers, nemesis etc are reduced to one shot only critters :)

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Originally Posted by Julian23

To keep you guys updated, I am currently in the process of finishing my report and I got confirmation from SCG that they will get it up before GP DC!

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

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Looking forward to the complete report in case the downsize it.
Did writing the report keep you from reading/replying to my private message Julian *fg*.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Right now I am looking at 20+ pages in MS Word, don't know if they are going to downsize it somewhat :cool:

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That's quite cool. I can't wait to read it. If they make you cut it, save your longer draft for later publication.

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Originally Posted by danyul

I also can't beat RUG consistently. Delver is my archnemesis. :(

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Postboard is negative against competent opponents who bring in flusterstorms, submerges and rough tumbles.

Preboard I had much better results with my recent list where I play 0 llanowar evles and 4 birchlore.
The best strategy RUG has is to kill every elf so their taxing counters/mana denial is live while they beat us down. Birchlore is best setup to combat this because it allows you to dumb your hand faster and turns every body into a manasource.

I have progenitus main (although that might change for Ruric thar if I figure out everyone else is right or the meta is appropriate), but I learned that Progenitus is the best weapon. Which also means that postboard we are forced to be the "aggro-deck". That means there is a chance we catch him on the "wrong foot" and win, but we are force to play into his flusterstorms/rough-tumbles more than you would like since you don't have enough control elements to stop his attackers... So if he plays perfectly and/or has all the answers you just lose post-board.

Overall I think my current take against RUG is still slightly negative but much better than my old approach.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Looking forward to the complete report in case the downsize it.
Did writing the report keep you from reading/replying to my private message Julian *fg*.

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Writing/finishing the report was actually almost all i did for the entire last week whenever I came home from work. So yeah, one might say that I was mildly disctracted.

Basically, my last 5 days looked like this:

9:00 - 18:00 spent at work
18:00 - 20:00 chillout
20:00 - 01:00 work on the report, mainly
01:00 - 02:00 watch another episode of Game of Thrones and go to bed.

I almost feel relieved going back a more regular schedule now although I enjoyed writing a lot!

Let me say that I feel really honored by your offer but didn't really get to think about it a lot tbh ;-) If everything works out, I might be able to make it to GP Vienna, so maybe we'll run into each other there?

problem of understanding ;)

@blind: I think you completly misunderstood what he was saying. Being "the shit vs Delver" carries a very positive conotation.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

@blind: I think you completly misunderstood what he was saying. Being "the shit vs Delver" carries a very positive conotation.

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Really? So I'm sorry :)

LOL. I can't read French but I love that you went off like that, with a block of text, and then immediately apologized, smiley face and all. There is no language that I enjoy hearing (or pretend-reading) in angry tones more than French. I actually can't tell if youre angry, but if you are not, please don't say. I want that block of text to stay a happy mystery.

Now I will go find some nice Meekstones. Then I will take over the world.

normally, we don't need to improve match ups which are already good. TT is complex, try to turn around tempo spells, with some decay and ooze, we are fine. And meekstone, we can probably do without. Moreover, meekstone is not enough versatile, prefer decay which is acceptable vs many match ups.

"is shit" = very bad, "is THE shit"= very good. English is ridiculous.