[Deck] 43 Lands

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

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Originally Posted by attemanden

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

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Well to me the only real prolem relic should be giving you is if you only have loam in the yard. And then still you should be able to grind them out with Maze of Ith, your own manlands, ensnarring bridge, wastelands, Explosives, oblivion stone etc...

Lets say, you just played loam, and grabbed yourself a fetch and wasteland back. They clear the graveyards.
You still got the CA out of it, they just cycled a card.
Relic in Rug delver even helps you by shrinking mongoose and Tarmogoyf, buying you more time to grind it out.
Oh, not to mention I forgot Crucible of Worlds, which doesn't feel the graveyard hate that much as loam.

If you know they're bringing in hate like crypt, spellbomb, relic, try to always have a green mana up to cycle the tranquil thicket and dredge in response. No need to waste space on Krosan Grip in that scenario.

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Originally Posted by attemanden

Hey guys.

I've problems beating relic of progenitus in aggro/control decks like RUG and merfolks and im not sure how to beat them. well without the relics im fine, but when the GY removal begins i find it hard to make a counter to it. i have 4 chalice in my board, and the standard plan will ofc. be put it down on 1. but it can be counted and they seem to find relics faster than i can find my chalices. would it be right to side in som krosan grip to answer the relics? or should i be able to find another way around this?

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Against merfolk sideboard confidants are very helpful, along with o-stone and explosives. Against RUG the chalice plan is usually good enough to just beat them, it doesn't usually matter if you can loam.

RUG isn't hard, if you can get past the early game or stick a chalice at 1 its game. The problem comes when they stick a T1 delver that flips on T2 (solution: maze) or a mongoose that goes all the way (solution: explosives). Goyf/ooze can just be mazed.

well i usually win game 1. but after sideboard they put the GY hate, and my mazes cant stop them since they waste and remove making me defenseless. but guess theres simply nothing to do in such situations.

play a slower G1 and try to grind it out. we have many ways to annoy them too. we have our own waste, we have mazes/tabernacle, and if it drags further, chasm lock. you can use mishra's factory to chump if you want. you can tutor for ensnaring bridge and keep hand empty using manabonds. and so on.

woud you suggest the E-tutor build to ensure finding the needed artifacts? i find intuition a bit too slow vs spell pierce and other counters.

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Originally Posted by attemanden

woud you suggest the E-tutor build to ensure finding the needed artifacts? i find intuition a bit too slow vs spell pierce and other counters.

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I would, others wouldn't. Try several lists out and play whichever one you feel more comfortable with, you'll win more with that one.

i was thinking the OP should include a raven's crime list.

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Originally Posted by movingtonewao

i was thinking the OP should include a raven's crime list.

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Yeah it definitely should. They weren't really a thing when the primer was written. you should message tao about it.

i doubt tao is even active i haven't seen him post anything on the lands thread for a really long time :(

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Originally Posted by movingtonewao

RUG isn't hard, if you can get past the early game or stick a chalice at 1 its game. The problem comes when they stick a T1 delver that flips on T2 (solution: maze) or a mongoose that goes all the way (solution: explosives). Goyf/ooze can just be mazed.

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Also don't forget that you can get around your own chalice on 1 with Enginereed Explosives, by tapping one color mana and 1 colorless mana(wasteland or port) to still get around your own chalice and put it on 1

aye. my take on RUG after playing like 12345 games against it: the only way they can beat us is to screw us in the early game and stick an early threat without us having an answer. once we stabilise and get our mazes and other shit online...they're goners.

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but what i was referring to how did he face both MU. What were the opening hands and game plan. Sideboard and so on...

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I play 4 chalice of the void and 3 trinisphere in the sideboard. Also krosan grip for some builds. i sideboard up to 12 cards. including 4 confidants.

during the second turney, i game 1 both times, and won games 2+3. I basically kept every hand that could produce chalice. resolving trinisphere was gg every game.

during the second turney i added 1 thalia to the sideboard, and switched a chalice to main. this gave me a game 1 win vs storm, but i lost games 2+3. game two i lost after having chalice 1 turn two.he played 5 cc 1 spells, got threshold and used 2 cabal ritual to get and nauseam ftw :/

just wanted to chime in on how ridiculously crappy the metagame is for graveyard recursion decks like ours right now. In one day playtesting at the LGS, i faced:
snapcaster + surgical
deathrite shaman
scavenging ooze
rest in peace

and guess what, people know that we're packing 4 confidants g2.
yes I know shaman and ooze can be dealt with using cursed totem, yes I know if they abrupt decay your totem/whatever, you can find it back via academic ruins, but it still is annoying.

I'm not saying we shouldn't play lands, just ranting off a bit having had a bad day.

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Originally Posted by movingtonewao

just wanted to chime in on how ridiculously crappy the metagame is for graveyard recursion decks like ours right now. In one day playtesting at the LGS, i faced:
snapcaster + surgical
deathrite shaman
scavenging ooze
rest in peace

and guess what, people know that we're packing 4 confidants g2.
yes I know shaman and ooze can be dealt with using cursed totem, yes I know if they abrupt decay your totem/whatever, you can find it back via academic ruins, but it still is annoying.

I'm not saying we shouldn't play lands, just ranting off a bit having had a bad day.

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I played 2 tournaments last week-end. Hate was:

R1, 2-1: MD Shaman (I saw 7 shamans within 3 games)
R2, 1-0: RiP (G2 went to time)
R3, 1-2: Combo Storm (Should have won G3, I took the wrong land on Tolaria West. Wasteland instead of the amazing Bojuka Bog..)
R4, 2-0: Nothing relevant
R5, 0-2: RiP

R1, 2-1: Nothing relevant
R2, 1-2: RiP + Extirpate
R3, 0-2: Extirpate
R4, 2-0: Extirpate
R5, 2-0: Extirpate

I personally don't care of Extirpate as it just remove 4 cards. But I understand it can be a little more painful when paired with Snapcaster. Usually, 1-2 Extirpate is fine; more suck as #1 targets are Maze, Wasteland and Loam.
About RiP, this is a huge blow out when played. It is almost impossible to recover. It nukes your graveyard, and keeps nuking it if you don't blow it. Each time I see White in my opponent deck, I'll side in my Krosian Grips, CB or not CB. This card is Tormod's Crypt + Leyline of the Void for 2 mana..

Anyway, I am thinking to go a more Eternal Garden-way with this deck (ie more Crucibles and less Loam in order to be less GY dependant). Or add more Dark Tutelage, my 1 off is already that impressive :)

I agree that out of all the hate rip is the one that blows hard. the only way we can deal with it is oblivion stone/engineered explosives and you have to jump through hoops to get them, losing out on CA in the meantime.

A couple of things I've realized from testing against newer decks over the last several days
1. You definitely want cursed totem maindeck now with deathrite shaman being so popular. I think this makes the Enlightened Tutor builds of lands just better than the Tutorless ones.
2. With RIP being such a beating, I think krosan grip is necessary in the sideboard again. I don't think that something like o-stone, additional explosives, or sylvok replica does the job; you need to resolve your answer to rip.
3. BUG Delver is such an easy matchup compared to RUG delver. No bolts means you get another turn or two to win, which is usually enough. Also, you get to board in bob and thalia because they won't have answers for them postboard, which makes the matchup even easier.

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Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat

A couple of things I've realized from testing against newer decks over the last several days
1. You definitely want cursed totem maindeck now with deathrite shaman being so popular. I think this makes the Enlightened Tutor builds of lands just better than the Tutorless ones.
2. With RIP being such a beating, I think krosan grip is necessary in the sideboard again. I don't think that something like o-stone, additional explosives, or sylvok replica does the job; you need to resolve your answer to rip.
3. BUG Delver is such an easy matchup compared to RUG delver. No bolts means you get another turn or two to win, which is usually enough. Also, you get to board in bob and thalia because they won't have answers for them postboard, which makes the matchup even easier.

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I can't agree more with 3. No bolts means there are no surprise damages. And BUG doesn't play that Un-Mazable Mangoose :)