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A millions discard effects doesn't beat snapcaster+stifle/flusterstorm. And control players have learned to leave removal in vs storm. Even without representing that you might hve swarm post board they know bolt means less cards off of ad nausium and swordsing there own goyf/kotr can be a game deciding play. This puts chants at an all time premium rite now.
I agree, but I would rather play chant in TES than run a Ubrw ad nauseam list. The unstable mana base would be rather atrocious. The only Ubw ad nauseam list I would consider running is one with top and LDV. I also believe that since there's a resurgence of stifle in most of the tempo decks; Orim's Chant would benefit an ant player more than seize/duress and past in flames, but this point has already been discussed to death in this thread. If tempo decks started to decline and maverick and other decks with permanent based hate start to be played more than Ubr would be the obvious choice for an AnT list.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalhead
I agree other than about LDV. That card blows in ANT (and just about everything else but shelldrazi)Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
It blows now because of snares all over the damn place. It was actually quite good if you ran a couple with tops before tempo blew up everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
I may be wrong here but If I am playing tops in storm shouldn't my tutor of choice be doomsday?Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Only if you're playing a set of tops. Most ad nauseam builds running LDV and top run 2 tops.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_rb
Okay besides the one versus two tops you would play or that "most" LDV builds play; What exactly about LDV makes it good? Or more to the point what makes it better than doomsday for finding 5 cards or grim tutor for finding one card? We are not playing force of will so the fact that its blue only makes it worse because of reb and pyroblast. The fact that it costs two makes it worse against spell snare and counterbalance. And it is unlikely that it will cost less life than grim tutor, it will have less effect than doomsday.
With that said I am unsure why I should consider LDV in my Ant list, UBw or otherwise?
You shouldn't because it's terrible now. I clarified this in a post above when I said "It blows..." Snare hits it, reb hits it, and it gets hit by pierce/balance pretty easy, even though the latter is nearly non-existent. Ldv was a decent choice for a tutor before delver decks blew up, and to be honest it was really powerful but no one played it and dismissed it as garbage even though there was solid tournament results showing it was viable. I was just stating a point and was not suggesting running LDV, I was just stating that I use it from time to time in my local meta when testing numerous amount of storm builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
But the point is, don't use LDV now because it isn't viable to play now with so much delver/stoneblade running around (even though a savvy player can play around snare).
Lets be real here, counterbalance isn't a good deck anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
I never had a feeling Chant solves anything except the - SDT and Snapcaster-SS/Stifle interaction... well you can still beat it but that's rare..
if the Fow/Spellpierce you, do you pass/pay? I prefer to have information and go off when I know I can win, I prefer mtg to poker..
I recently realized i can beat 2xFow 3xDaze 2xSS hand in one turn with 2 discards the same as I would with 2 chants (well likely not), except I would likely lack the WW most time...
Past in flames - plain power of this card make Chant in ANT no option... I mean, should the deck be still called ANT if you kill through Past in flames 4/5 of the time?
I play a bit modified GP UBrg list and I don't think UW is unfavorable I only lost due to my misplays in tournaments, Canadian thresh is around 50/50 while they know what you're playing (based on 50+ games)... no experience with URG tempo thou, since nobody plays/tests it around here =/
LDV - although i really like the card I have little experience with it in old UB list.. I'm a bit tempted to give it a try instead of 2 preordains now
Playing PiF makes your delver MU easy as pie. Actually, it makes most blue Mu's easy as long as you get some decent disruption. Running PiF or chant is all play-style dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Most the time you can wait for a tap out for a clique and just wreck em on your turn.
PiF is so powerful against blue that I wouldn't recommend playing without it. It allows you to just be awesome. The mini tendrils play is amazing if you draw the tendrils and/or PiF. It just lets you win against control. I've also been in situations where I would just use PiF for flashing back discard and cantrips. It's just soo good.
I prefer a mix of discard and chants. With this you can easily just win. Also, most players let a chant resolve on their turn so you can abuse this the best with ant, going rit rit adn, since ant runs 8 instant cast rits compared to TES. Most the time with chant you duress then chant the next turn and if they pierce you typically pay it only if you have enough lands to cast a ritual and another ritual in response to another pierce in case they have one, otherwise you just pass and chant again next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
LDV is good in old ant list with tops. You usually play 2 top and 2 LDV. I played 2 top 3 LDV in my old list before delver decks got huge here in the Americas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I wouldn't recommend running it just because snare wrecks it. You can always play around it but there will be certain situations where you need to LDV and they just snare it and win.
LDV with chant works because if you have extra chants you can chant then LDV.
LDV is very powerful when it works and top lets you sculpt perfect hands. I liked the version of ANT with it. It was very powerful the times it was working. Basically if you want to run LDV, you just cut 4 preordain for 2 LDV and 2 Top. I still wouldn't recommend it if your meta is filled with control, as a timely snare can just make you lose. To cut to the chase, when it works it's a 2 mana vamp tutor.
J_rb - do you have a decklist?
Yea, but I would not recommend playing this unless you can really play around snare. It's not hard but it takes some patience. These list are solid against mixed metas. I stopped playing them because I opted to the 7 chant Doomsday fetch tendrils builds because they wreck control, which my meta is filled with.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_limoges
The chant list is obviously good if theres rampant control in your area because you can go upkeep chant eot LDV ad nause or just ad naus.
4 duress
1 ill gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
3 ponder
1 Tendrils
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ad nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 lotus petal
2 sensei top
1 crystal vein
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 delta
2 misty rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
sb
3 dark confidant
2 echoing truth
1 thoughtseize
1 hurkyls recall
1 rebuild
1 kgrip
1 slaughter pact
1 chain of vapor
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm
green splash for swarms. The extra chrome is because I prefer speed and you can ad nauseam with no mana floating more successfully.
4 duress
1 ill gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
3 ponder
1 Tendrils
3 Orim's chant
1 Ad nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 lotus petal
2 sensei top
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 delta
1 Swamp
1 tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 scrubland
sb
3 dark confidant
1 Ad nauseam
2 echoing truth
1 Orim's chant
1 hurkyls recall
1 rebuild
1 kgrip
1 slaughter pact
1 chain of vapor
1 Tendrils of agony
2 surgical extraction
Heres my list with white for chant. I use surgical for obvious gy hate. Mainly against reanimator. It also can shuffle if you need a shuffle effect, which I have done numerous times.
I'll be honest the Ubg version is probably the better version, but I enjoy playing chants as my meta is filled with control.
general question for G splash - Main/side? Trop or Bayou?
I really dislike G land main since you're telegraphing Xantid swarm miles away
Trop seems like an obvious choice, but in numerous situations i wished it'd be Bayou and lost due to it (T1 swarm - T2 kill, or more likely - T1 island+cantrip, T2 fetch-> swarm but with no black for the kill next few turns), in fact it is a protection so natural would be B land
...the problem is reconfiguration of fetches as ability to go T1-> island is vital, but I'm playing both Volcanic and Badlands (which is 100% worth it) and going Misty Rainforest>Scalding tarn makes the MB weaker =/
which Configuration would be your choice?
for reference my recent decklist (61 cards) I 100% like except the Trop problem:
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
j_rb - Crystal Vein - is that 2. situational mana worth it?
btw. would Dread of Night (most likely a SB 4of) be really weird in strong monoW & Maverick meta?
I think virtues ruin is the better choice over dread of night.
The crystal vein reasoning is going to include comments about sensei's and chrome mox.
As for your deck slosh, Have you considered an Empty the Warrens Main? I think I would try -2 preordain +1 Empty, and being a 60 card deck?
I could also see -2 Grim +2 burning, and adding a single grim SB. Once you are running red maindeck, I think it should be considered for burning wish and empty the warrens, these are cards that can offer outs to other random main deck cards.
If you're going to splash for a color (Green), then I would suggest taking up five to six sideboard slots with two of those slots being land. It seems excessive, but its probably necessary considering the two top blue decks are running a minimum of three Wasteland. If you're looking at Green for Xantid Swarm, why not just splash White for maindeck or sideboard Chant effects? The old argument about splashing Green was that it gave you access to Krosan Grip to solve Counterbalance. However, Counterbalance has fallen out of favor taking away the secondary reason to play Green.
The best method to beat these decks will likely depend on what is in your metagame. If it is RUG heavy, then Chant seems like your best out. If its UWx Stoneblade, you could get away with UB with Dark Confidant and additional discard from the sideboard; the benefit being you don't risk color screw and you maintain your ability to play around Wasteland. I think Chant is probably the stronger splash between the UB, UBw, or UBg simply because Confidant is terrible against RUG because they almost always have burn in post board.
If you're going to play chant, something to consider is the presences of Leyline of Sanctity. If that card is prevalent in your area, play Silence over Chant (Chant targets, Silence does not). The ability to blank attacks is probably not that relevant since most of the aggro decks are slower than they use to be and you usually have until turn four before they kill you. Most aggro players will tend to mulligan into hate cards because they believe your deck capable of killing them on turn one; the reality is that unless you're playing Blecher, the odds of a turn one kill are fairly low.
Dread of Night serves an important function in guaranteeing that you don't lose to Aven Mindcensor while keeping the Teegs and Canonists able to be hit with other removal (killing Mother of Runes). This is fine in Doomsday where you are fine with them having Teeg or Canonist, but cannot beat Mindcensor. ANT isn't really fine with either of them, and is generally better served by Virtue's Ruin/Infest effects.
I prefer the trop on the board but if I'm running out of board space I'll put it maindeck. Most of the time it can be avoided in g1 that they have no idea you are playing swarm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I also like trop as I don't need to fix the mana base for bayou. Turn 1 island cantrip into turn 2 trop swarm usually works as you will have a 3rd land or a lotus petal for the black source.
Yea, it is kind of mandatory (Not technically mandatory but it's amazing) playing with tops. You can use either vein or City of Traitors, which I dislike city, as you need another land to kill it for thresh in certain games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
If you suspect mindbreak trap dark rit, vein into ad nauseam is kinda sweet.
That is also why I run 3 chrome moxes. So the dark rit vein ad nauseam turn 2 is a more consistent win.
Yea in maverick filled meta's it could be. It's definitely less of hassle than trying to play around mom protected teegs, cannonist and mindcensors. Sudden shock is tech as fuck against maverick/teeg/mindcensor too if you are playing red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
You definitely want them as a 4 of if you are running them. As 1 and any other bounce/kill wins against maverick.
I could see this. Hell, I could see running 4 burning wish(-2 preordain -2 grim for 4 Burning Wish with empty and grim tutor in board). Burning wish with a wish board would be sick and grim would be a sick tutor target. This also makes the deck more versatile. I've found many games with ant that burning wish is fantastic as I can imprint tendrils on chrome without having to worry about not having a win con. Empty is so powerful against pox/tempo decks, you probably want 1 main or 4 Burning Wish for easy access to early empties. I got so many auto wins against pox at the last scg I played in due to empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
P.S. Burning Wish is goooood. Versatility is key here.
-Goblins main is something I can imagine to have use for but I don't have feeling I actually need them and Ad Nauseam into 2x Grim, Flames, Tendrils and Warrens on the top seems pretty risky... 61 card deck is simple personal preference 61st card being additional land
-Chant is no option for me due to PiF and Swarm is some sort of Chant effect
-Actually Burning Wish is the reason why i switched to Grim Tutors, although I like the versatility its slower, shrinks sideboard and most of all is clumsy with Past in Flames
4Burning wish and Wishing for Grim in chain is a bit wild at least with mana IMO, I would play that in TnT with Rite of Flame
The 61st card is always worse than the 60th card. When going for efficiency, adding another card is just decreasing consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
There was an old argument about people playing 41 cards in Limited instead of 40. The argument went something like "if the game goes long, I won't get decked" or some nonsense like that. The bottom line is, if you play 41 cards, your deck is not as good as it could be, or you're not strong enough of a player to make the final cut.
I feel the same way in Constructed. Certainly when playing Combo.
I'm not so sure burning wish is clumsy with PiF, I mean if you get your wish through then it exiles, if its countered than it still goes to the GY, generally you only need to resolve one tutor, so I'm not sure this is that big of problem.
As for the 61st card being a land, I'm not sure that means anything, I mean you could call anything the 61st card. However you are running 14 cantrips instead of the usual 12, so I think going to 12 or 13 would be acceptable.
As for Grim vs Burning, I'm not sure paying 6 life(either with ad nauseum or twice cast through PiF) and 2 extra mana when you are already main-decking red lands makes sense.
Burning Wish for Virtues Ruin in the SB is a sweet play to beat the maverick decks and burning for EtW means you dont have to take the 4 damage flipping it to AN.
If I wasn't playing chant, I would practice this, as it stands I am boarding in 4 warrens and 2 red lands from my board at times.
That's true... well I'm used to play 61 decks even combos (and played even 63 card Lands deck once) and feel no way obligated with this "rule"... I bit hesitated with storm but it provides more SB versatility and I want enough lands in deck where I keep reasonable no-landers with probe time to time, and probe virtually makes it -4 cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by P.S.
bottom line - I cannot build the main deck better than this that would feel stronger to me in 60 cards.. so I ended up like that...
It is, as it requires the tutor... I played only 4/2 or 3/3+1, sure its better in 4/4 +1 ...I wonder If I wouldn't rather play TES then...Quote:
I'm not so sure burning wish is clumsy with PiF, I mean if you get your wish through then it exiles, if its countered than it still goes to the GY, generally you only need to resolve one tutor, so I'm not sure this is that big of problem.
that means same deck 14 lands... hmm need more lands... add oneQuote:
As for the 61st card being a land, I'm not sure that means anything, I mean you could call anything the 61st card. However you are running 14 cantrips instead of the usual 12, so I think going to 12 or 13 would be acceptable.
maybe it would.. but playing 1of preordain =/ ...I'm not sure 12 is usual and 16 is just cantrip into more cantrips, so I'm fine with 14 as I board out 2 preordains out +/- each match
It doesn't matter with Pif as I'm winning that turn, its real pain with Ad Nauseam... on the other hand 4/5 games I combo through PiF and do not use Ad Nauseam unless its necessaryQuote:
As for Grim vs Burning, I'm not sure paying 6 life(either with ad nauseum or twice cast through PiF) and 2 extra mana when you are already main-decking red lands makes sense.
I know It is and its mana intensive too.. I'm thinking of running Infest in my board insteadQuote:
Burning Wish for Virtues Ruin in the SB is a sweet play to beat the maverick decks and burning for EtW means you dont have to take the 4 damage flipping it to AN.
It's not clumsy as long as you are running 4 tutor 4 wish because you will usually have a tutor as you burning wish. The tutor will usually be in your hand and lets you double up on mana or protection post combo. Also, if they counter it you can usually use a PiF to get a lethal storm count through your gy so the 1 wish is all it takes some times. Also, just 1 burning wish with the natural tendrils in hand will win games.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
It's fine as you are mainly comboing off with PiF, but the ad nauseam requires a little bit of caution, as you need extra life for it. I prefer Burning Wish as you can be fast if you need to with the empty route or it gives you the best utility and versatility your deck can give.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
I also think it's important to have a maindeck out to Teeg, which Burning Wish gives.
Ruin and possibly Grapeshot. Grapeshot is great against hatebears or as a 1 sided wrath of god if they don't have mom protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
Oh, and it lets you showboat for your friends or grapeshot an opponent who is being rude to you for 50 damage.
On a side note grapeshot is more mana intensive if you don't run rite of flame so you usually need a 2nd red source via petal or another land. It definitely isn't mandatory if you aren't running rite of flame, but when I played Ubr Ant I found the mana easily accessible via petal and not having double red never screwed me over.
You probably wouldn't because you get a way less stable mana base. Also playing 4 wish 3 tutor 1 sb or 4/4 1 grim sb, makes Burning wish less of a random thing as you usually have the extra tutor. Also, post combo the extra tutor lets you double up on protection or mana. Burning wish getting PiF when I have drawn the tendrils has won me so many games I can't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
For those of you who are running Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy in a Past in Flames list (which I believe to make sense given the synergy between PiF and Probe and between Therapy and Probe), are you opting for Duress or Thoughtseize as your "other" discard spell? Given the number of Snapcasters, Vendilion Cliques, Spellstutter Sprites, and other hatebears running around, and the fact that Past in Flames decks are less reliant on life totals, I am almost inclined to run Thoughtseizes (or at least a split).
I'm going to make a bold claim. ANT's sideboard is mostly garbage. The only anti-hate needed are a couple Chain of Vapors, 1-2 Echoing Truth, and a few ways to deal with Counterbalance and Stax. The rest are "upgrades" (imaginary or real) to bounce spells and other filler.
To fill this hole in the sideboard, I've been testing boarding in 4x Delver of Secrets and 4x Dark Confidant against all blue decks, and it's been working beautifully. Even against my playtest opponents who know I'm boarding into the manplan, their sideboard is now less effective and they often can't draw an answer before I deal 9+ damage or draw a few cards. In some small local tournaments, people have been completely blown out (although if they're good, they'll leave in some swords).
Delver will flip something absurd like 80% of the time and really puts a ton of pressure on them. Bob is fine, but a little underwhelming so far. Next plan is to try a 2-2 split of Jaces and Bobs. Both of the duders are likely to come down under a counterbalance lock and force the opponent to search for an answer for them or die, which dilutes their efforts to search for interaction with the combo.
For boarding, I'm operating on the theory that I transform into an aggro-combo deck. Therefore, I want to be less all-in, focusing on pressuring and disrupting my opponent until I can execute a combo-kill. I board in an additional Tendrils to make it easier to cast a couple rituals into Tendrils for the kill. So right now, the plan is:
+ 4x Delver, 4x Bob, +1 Tendrils, +2ish bounce spells
- 4x Preordain, 2x LED, 1x Infernal Tutor, 1x Ad Nauseam, 1x Ill-Gotten Gains, 2ish Flex
The flex can be some number of Petals, Duresses, maindeck bounce, etc.
I'm currently playing Past In Flames in the maindeck along with IGG, no Grim Tutors because of budgetary reasons. 1 Volcanic, but no other splashes off stock U/B.
This has been tested off and on for 5-6 years in this style of deck. It's fucking awful. The reason that it's awful is that ANT actually only has a few bad matchups, and this plan solves none of them. Let's walk through them:Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
(a) faster combo decks with as much or more permission/disruption (examples: Reanimator, Mirror w/Chant effects)
(b) prison decks that can attack basics and/or put up a clock (e.g. Geddon Stax, Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy).
(c) permission decks that leverage more than just stack-based counterspells (e.g. Counterbalance.dec (with it's namesake), Team America (with spot discard, Hymn, VClique))
(d) permission-heavy tempo decks with a very fast clock (RUG Tempo/Canadian Threshold)
Man plan doesn't help you at all vs (a) (siding in creatures vs someone who kills you faster than you...) or (d) (they're way more aggressive and won't side out their burn). It's pretty questionable vs (b) since they play a good number of threats and likely can't side out all of their (normally quite large complement of) creature control. (c) has far better trumps in one of the following:
Tarmogoyf
Stoneforge Mystic->Batterskull/Sword
Knight of the Reliquary
Tombstalker
(arguably, Jace, the Mind Sculptor)
This is ignoring the fact that they expect Xantid Swarms and Dark Confidants by now and have accounted for that by keeping around 4 pieces of removal in their decks. It's also ignoring that creatures don't actually deal with them assembling CB/Top.
What might you do to solve these pillars of things that ANT doesn't want to see?
(a)
1. Use specific hate, if it can be classified as a hoser should metagame presence become strong enough.
2. Play more discard spells so you can fight a war of attrition. ANT plays more and better draw than other combo decks (particularly those that sacrifice stability to have speed and lots of protection). Use this to stall the game until those cantrips matter.
(b)
1. Without a fast clock or land disruption, beating these decks is as easy as Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Meltdown, or Pulverize. With a fast clock, you have less time to hit land drops and find your removal. Lists like Ari's with lots of lands and lots of basic lands are much better here than something with 14 lands and gitaxian probes. In terms of ending the game of a deck with 14-17 lands, the last point of damage and Armageddon backed by a Sphere, a creature, or other non-chalice disruption are the same. The same thing that will work best against Dragon Stompy (as many lands and basics as you can afford (Ari Lax's well-known UB list is great here) plus enough mass bounce/removal that you have a good shot of drawing one naturally) also will beat Geddon Stax.
2. It's important to know what is inconvenient vs what is deadly. ANT often plays discard spells so recognizing what your hand might be able to play through when staring down an opponent's opening hand containing Chalice, Trinisphere, Mox, Ancient tomb, City of Traitors is very important. Both Trinisphere and Chalice can be played through, but how you do it is dependent on what your hand might be able to accomplish. Mentally giving up by telling yourself (and probably later your friends) that an opponent outdrew you is the reason you miss the cut when piloting storm.
(c)
1. Play a different deck. Fighting the two main ways of non-counterspell disruption from a blue deck (Counterbalance and Discard) at the same time is nearly impossible when you're trying to string together 8-10 spells. The only thing that has been constant in terms of beating these decks together has been Empty the Warrens, but opponents are quick to adapt with EE, Deed, and Maelstrom Pulse.
2. If you're facing only one, particular strategies are known to hose each. Heavy discard decks are known to be vulnerable to Divert, Disrupt, and Flusterstorm. Counterbalances can usually be dealt with by a mix of hard to counter enchantment removal (Krosan Grip, Reverent Silence, Wipe Away) and discard. Counterbalances are sometimes vulnerable to alternate sideboard plans of Doomsday into Shelldock Isle for Emrakul or Show and Tell into Emrakul but both will eat up large amounts of sideboard space.
(d)
1. The most obvious is change your protection package. These decks are notoriously weak to Orim's Chant, Silence, and basic Plains.
2. That said, this matchup is very winnable in stock lists. Know what's likely to walk into Daze and don't throw something critical like a discard spell or a Brainstorm into it if you can avoid it. Play with knowledge of their Wastelands and Stifles (fetch basics when it's safe if you can). Hold on to those discard spells a little longer until they've spent their manipulation. You're more likely to be able to follow up a bad hand of theirs with comboing and at least they're unlikely to be able to immediately recover from your discard spell by Brainstorming.
3. In lists with fewer lands, Carpet of Flowers and/or basics in the sideboard can help vs their mana denial and soft counters.
That's a good analysis of the matchups. I know the manplan has been tested in the past, but so far I haven't seen anyone (posting about) testing with Delver. It sounds trivial, one man vs. another, but Delver is actually that good. Going through the specific matchups:
I agree with you on a and b. I have another Thoughtseize and a couple Rebuilds for a and b respectively. The manplan doesn't come in.
c. Your first option (play a different deck) would be correct if CB or BUG had large percentages of the meta, but fortunately they don't. However, Legacy being as diverse as it is, you're likely to run into one of these decks at a larger tournament, and I want to do something more than board in 3 cards to make the matchup 40-60 in their favor instead of something awful like 30-70.
Delver in particular is able to turn the matchup around to favorable postboard. Against heavy discard, given a hand of Delver and Tutor, Delver and LED, or even Delver and Brainstorm, it would be very unusual for them to take Delver with a Thoughtseize turn 1. They will usually leave in 2-5 removal spells, but we're playing 8-10 cantrips (depending on how you board), they're usually playing 4-6, so we're going to hit our men more frequently then they hit their removal. So by the time they find removal, Delver has hit them for 6, sometimes more. It gets under Counterbalance, allowing you to pressure them while you set up for the EOT Wipe Away instead of just sitting there. It's all about stretching them thin - they can try to search for permission or removal, and if they have a 3/2 battling, it forces them to make a decision fast.
Addressing the trumps,
1) Tarmogoyf you can often race. He tends to be a 3/4 in this matchup and Delver comes down faster and flies over. Bob doesn't fare well against Goyf, though, which is one of the reasons I'm not completely sold on him.
2) Mystic is vulnerable to discard. Instead of blowing your discard early, wait until they cast Mystic, then attempt to squire him. Even if Mystic blocks Bob, Bob has drawn you multiple cards at this point.
3) A turn 2 Knight seems like it could be a problem. I haven't tested against a Bant CB list though. It doesn't seem very popular.
4) Tombstalker is big, but he's very, very slow. What's even more embarrassing is if you happen to have a bounce spell handy, you can bounce him to swing through and they usually won't have enough cards in grave to recast him.
5) Jace is a problem, as always. You can attempt to kill them before he can come down, you can attempt to battle him to death, but if he sticks around, you will lose. This is another reason I'm trying out Jaces of my own. You can't protect Jace effectively, but against decks with very few creatures, he can come in through CB and will usually dominate.
d) I've tried Chant packages, didn't find them to be very effective. You're devoting at least 1/3 of your board and weakening your manabase to spells that fundamentally interact in the same way as they're preparing for. Either that, or you're adding Chants and discard, which makes the deck incredibly clunky and reactive. Ari posted not too long ago that Chants are garbage because of how many spell pierces they're running.
I appreciate your advice for how to play the matchup, but I am playing around Stifle and Wasteland. They can usually disrupt you just enough to buy them the 2 turns they need to battle for the win if you're just trying to sculpt a perfect hand, in my experience.
While most people will keep in burn, it's again stretching their searching thin by trying to find 4 bolts to my 8 men. Ever Snapcaster they use to bolt my men is one fewer Snare or Stile I have to play around. Their Delvers flip less frequently (or require suboptimal Pondering or Brainstorming). If they tap out / low to put pressure on you or remove a dude, you can often combo off right there. What's really worrying is the Hatfield RUG Delver playing CB in the side. This plan allows you to actually have a game against them.
The main point is that yes, the manplan hasn't been very effective in the past, but it's good now solely because of Delver.
And emidln,
There's really no call for making demeaning assumptions.Quote:
Mentally giving up by telling yourself (and probably later your friends) that an opponent outdrew you is the reason you miss the cut when piloting storm.
Blue/Red decks are way too popular to run Thoughtseize as the "Other" spell, particularly if you're running Grim Tutors. Vendillion Clique isn't really a huge deal to play around (If you think they have it, save a Brainstorm), and Spellstutter rarely counters anything of too much value. Snapcaster can be semi-annoying, but honestly, usually if they're leaving up Snapcaster + Counter magic every turn you can probably just wait out a Cabal Therapy and/or enough mana to play through Spell Pierce, since they're not doing anything with their mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
If you want to run Thoughtseize main, you might as well cut Ad Naus, because you'll never really be able to cast it profitably -- a lot of people are already on the verge of cutting it, so this is one more strike against it.
I run 4 Duress main, and usually 3-4 Thoughtseize in the board (in Game 2/3, I often take out Probes for Thoughtseizes, or if I'm siding out Ad Naus I can be a little more aggressive with my life total).
In your honest opinion's, what stands a better chance at Indianapolis, LED/Looting Dredge or TES? I've been play testing/practicing with Dredge for the last 2 months but I'm starting to think TES will fair better. Graveyard based decks are back on the radar and TES fairs better against Delver, which is currently the deck to beat. Try to be unbiased.
-Matthew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
I would not play either deck at a big event, but if I had to choose, I'd go with TES, assuming you're very proficient. (There's a separate TES thread to focus on the storm deck with a 5-color manabase.)
However, if you're concerned about Delver, I consider Dredge to have the stronger matchup. The old Canadian Threshold counted Dredge among its weaker matchups, whereas these types of decks (quick clock, plentiful countermagic, Stifle, Wasteland) are decks that Storm pilots do not look forward to facing.
People will have prepared for dredge. Take that for what it is.
The old Canadian Thresh counted dredge as a favorable matchup, to the point where proper sideboards did not contain any graveyard hate. You had every tool against them in the maindeck already:
-Fast enough to race a DDD hand.
-Early counters for the quick enablers
-Burn both to clock and to remove bridges.
-Stifle on Narco, Ichorid, zealot's ETB
-Wasteland, a card that by itself forced them to try to get hands with two lands or die to Waste+fow/daze.
I'm going to disagree here. David Caplan had a primer (on TCG), I believe, where he discussed the matchups of the deck, but I think it's no longer available on the Internet. He mentioned specifically that Ichorid was a terrible matchup and he considered not sideboarding against Dredge at all because it was that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
That being said, he overestimated how bad it was. In a later article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Wienburg.html), he said that the matchup was more tenable than he had given it credit for (precisely for many of the reasons you outlined where you do have ability to interact) and that the matchup did indeed justify devoting sideboard slots towards. Edit: Never mind, this is Ben Wienburg and not Dave Caplan.
Wherever you consider the matchup between Thresh and Dredge to lie on the spectrum, I'd still much rather be playing Dredge against RUG Delver than ANT/TES, and I have more experience with storm deck than I do with Dredge.
Yeah, LED/Looting dredge doesn't DDD like old dredge use to. It's still a helpful tool when you don't want to interact, but with so many powerful draw spells now, you often just overwhelm your opponent with threats. Dredge is really combo oriented now, if it wasn't already. An extremely resilient combo deck at that, grave-hate aside. And that's where my conundrum begins, everyone's eyes are on dredge after Adam Prosak stole first with dredge last week. I intended to do the very thing he accomplished, but he got there sooner. Now I'm left wondering if TES is the better choice, in a meta full of graveyard hate and aggro-control. In all honesty, I'm not too familiar with TES, though I did pilot U/B AdN pre-Misstep. I'm very comfortable with Dredge, but Cockatrice would allow me to get acquainted with TES fairly quick, though my time is limited. Thanks for the feedback, guys.
-Matthew
For GP:Indy, I recommend UB or UBr*. RUG and Stoneblade both are moving towards playing Spell Pierce, which tends to make Chant effects untenable.
Additionally, I think everyone needs to be prepared for Counterbalance. Historical plans should still be effective, e.g. 4x Empty the Warrens, Doomsday, etc.
*I advise the full 12 rituals / 3-color TES.
What 12 rituals are you running? I assume you're counting either LED or lotus petal in addition to the normal 4 dark rit and 4 cabal or rite of flame? I can't imagine running more than 16 non land sources being correct unless you cut land (which seems bad if you're expecting a ton of counterbalance)Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Spell Pierce? Counterbalace? Then I guess I'm back to old school
Sb
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tendrils of Agony
10
Probably talking about Liam's TNT list (i.e. 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flame, 4 Cabal Ritual).Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
Does he cut Petal or something? I searched around for his list and couldn't find one -- very surprising to me people are adding additional rituals for this deck, since I usually the games I lose are the games where I have excess mana and can't find action.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Here's his list from page 173:Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Preordain
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard
2 Wipe Away
2 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Silent Departure
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames