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The creator is planning to replace one GQ for another white source. 14 isn't still ideal, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShine
SotL is the blue meta in general, in particular it's there for Miracles and Elves. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, either.
I actually am fascinated by the list; I think it is, at the very least, a killer next-level design. It looks very well thought out, and given the rampant existence of blue (especially Miracles) I think the SotL package was a smart move--though I remain unimpressed by the card in my build
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I know someone who played the Arbiter build for a long time and he always had a lot of success with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
This is pretty much the only time that I've seen a list where I think the SotL makes sense, although I still think I want a certain number of Mother of Runes in the main; it's just such a pain for the tempo decks, and it seems weird not having any CMC1 for Vial curves.
Think I'd rather remove 3 plains instead of canopy and flagstones.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShine
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Fry? Yeah, he also runs crusaders as well; rare are his posts on this forum, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShine
It's an odd list, but with streamlining, I think it has great potential
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2x D&T in the top 16 of SCG Cinci! One of them even took 1st ;)
A question: do you side wit-leaf liege in against Deathblade？what do you usually side out in this mu？Thx.
It's always tough, because the deck has many permutations (of course, playing 4 colors does that). If I see a Lilly game one, then yes; otherwise, I treat it like any other Blade deck--O rings, disenchant/manriki, pithing needleQuote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
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Yeah, they always have about 2 Lilly in the main and 2 zealous persecution from sideboard. I think I should side in liege, but I fear that I may overboard here and I am not sure what to take out（I always take out flickerwisp first and don‘t know what to take out then）. So mabye I should side in liege only against Jund or Bug variants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Yeah, I'd start by cutting Moms and maybe StP; you want a density of disruptive threats. I'd only add liege after my needles, disenchant and rings came in. Cataclysm is also good vs themQuote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
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I wouldn't cut Moms against Blade decks. That is how we win/break even in ground battles while blanking all of their spot removal.
All.... 4 of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
maybe it's a bit next level, but blade typically brings in more wipes, against which mom is utter shit. I'd sooner swap mom for Pithing Needle, Cataclysm and an O ring.
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I feel cataclysm may not be that good against deathblade sometimes, for example when they already have a progenifish on board or you have thalia on board. So I assume mabye it is safer to side cataclysm in only against tribal or pure control like miracle, maybe I am just wrong on this...
The primary purpose of Mom in the Blade matchup is to break stalled boardstates and the secondary purpose is to blank their removal. Sure, they run 4 StP (and sometimes 1 Vindicate), but also run 2-3 Snaps, so Mom is always going to be live. I definitely don't board in Cataclysm against Blade as it's only good when your board is already winning.
Or when the board is stalled, or when you need to slay their Jace/Lilly. Aside from TNN+Jitte, I think casting Cataclysm usually ends up with them suffering--especially when you have a vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The problem with Mom is that by herself she's bad; when she's paired with a creature she's quite awesome. But against decks with wipes and lillies she is a terrible top deck vs an empty board.
However, what would you cut for the Deathblade matchup?
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Is this referring to why Mom should stay in postboard or are you referring to the use of Cataclysm? Because Cataclysm doesn't help you when a board is stalled nor does it force them to sacrifice Lili/Jace, so I'm assuming you're expounding as to why Mom is an allstar in fair matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Maybe. I mean, if they're left with a blue dual, a DRS, and some cards in hand, that seems okay-ish to build your board from. And yes, if we have a land, dude, Vial after a Cataclsym, that's awesome, but that also implies we had an advantageous board position pre-Cataclsym.Quote:
Aside from TNN+Jitte, I think casting Cataclysm usually ends up with them suffering--especially when you have a vial.
I agree, she's a semi-bad topdeck and requires other creatures in order to shine. But the same can be said of Aether Vial and you certainly don't cut those.Quote:
The problem with Mom is that by herself she's bad; when she's paired with a creature she's quite awesome. But against decks with wipes and lillies she is a terrible top deck vs an empty board.
Oracle text on Cataclysm: "Each player chooses from the permanents he or she controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a land, then sacrifices the rest."
So Planeswalkers are indeed sacrificed. Eat that, Jace!
On the topic of what to remove vs Deathblade... this one is really hard to say. I have the most success in the match disrupting their manabase, but obviously we're not going to cut any of those guys.
Frequently I'll just trim whatever seems sub-optimal; maybe 1 Mom, 1 Revoker, 1 Wisp (I run 4 atm) as they're bringing in ZP. Its hard to say as each of our cards has its niche role in the MU and you can't really say one is going to be that much better than the others as it depends what exactly they draw. SFM / Jace styled draws from them will be crippled by Revoker, but they could easily get the STP / Snap / TNN plan online as well which is where we want Mom. So basically I'm just trimming for bullet answers and hoping to draw the right answers to their specific opener after prioritizing LD.
I like having extra removal post board for the MU and will usually bring in Celestial Flare. Cataclysm seems alright but it doesn't answer TNN so I prefer to go with Flare / Disenchant / Needle here. I also like PTE in the board so would consider bringing that in too if I saw Confidants (probably before the Needle).
On another note, when are we siding out Batterskull? I'm usually going for Jitte first in most matches, but I definitely want it against Miracles and SnT (better clock than Jitte with a SFM draw)... Do we need it vs Deathblade & Esperblade? I feel like cutting 1 SFM 1 Batterskull is a nice way to open up some room post side, just need to figure out what MUs it's best for.
Lol, brain fart. Yeah, Jace/Lili bites the dust. Hmm..., definitely a worthy inclusion then.
Split the finals of a 42-man tourney over here. Deck is stock again, except for 3 Serra Avenger, 3 Flickerwisps, 2 Brimaz, and 2 Mangara. Oh and I had 4 Karakas and no caverns.
R1 Esperblade 2-0 (1-0) Raced a True Name with my SoFI-equipped Avenger. G2 Mangara-locked him after he fired 3 brainstorms without drawing a fetch to shuffle away chaff.
R2 Sneakshow 2-0 (2-0) G1 I had no idea what my opponent was on but I kept a double Karakas hand with Mom, Thalia and Revoker. Luckily it was SneakShow. G2 he manages to land a blood moon against my Karakas, Canopy and Port, but he has no answer to my resolved Ensnaring Bridge.
R3 BUG Delver 1-1 (2-0-1) G1 won a long game when I managed to set up Mangara lock and stabilized against his 3 Goyfs at a low life. G2 he lands a turn 2 Sylvan which is bad news. Flooded this game - drew 8 lands. G3 I was lucky because his 2 Delvers didn't flip for 3 turns, leaving him one turn short of killing me.
R4 SneakShow 2-0 (3-0-1) G1 Mull to 6 to a double Vial, Karakas Revoker hand. G2 Mull to 6 again for hate and won a much longer game behind Ensnaring Bridge, Revoker, Thalia and Karakas.
R5 BUG Delver 2-1 (4-0-1) G1 I drew more relevant threats, ended pretty fast. G2 Mulled to 5, and lost after not drawing a 2nd land. G3 Mulled to 6, it was a long game but managed to win behind SoFI equipped Brimaz with a little help from Karakas and Spellskite for double protection.
R6 Esperblade (4-0-2) Drew into top 8.
T8 R4SneakShow opponent 2-1 G1 mulled to 5 for the perfect Vial Karakas Revoker hand. G2 mulled to 5 and lost even behind double revoker and thalia which he managed to answer. G3 mulled to 6, won without Karakas but had Pithing (countered) and 2 Revokers, my hand would've been cold to an Emrakul because he also had a Blood Moon.
T4 R6Esperblade opponent 2-0 G1 he was short on mana after I wasted him, and he got stuck on 2 lands - managed to Mangara lock him as well. G2 was an extremely long game where he stabilized when he was at 2 life. Final plays of the long match was when he had a Vendilion in play, and a Snap equipped with Jitte and Manriki against my board of lots of land (Karakas among them), my 1 Cat token from Brimaz and a Celestial Flare in my hand which he knows of because of the Clique. He swung with his Clique, but I respond with porting one of his 3 lands during his combat step forcing him to tap out and drop a 2nd Clique to get rid of my Flare, drew a Mangara with an active vial on 3, dropped it onto play. Drew a Flickerwisp for my turn so I flickered his Snap, Karakas'd his Clique and swung for lethal with Mangara and Cat token.
Split the finals against R3 opponent because it was almost 11pm already. R3, R4(also my T8 opponent), R5 and T4 opponents are all extremely good players who have multiple top8's in our legacy community.
Brimaz and Mangara did a lot of work for me in the tourney. Keep on taxing!
Is it possible for someone to post "current"
Aggro build
Control build
I am really interested in seeing the differences (laid out again maybe) I went searching, but I don't see much difference in them.
I don't want to see the new build, although that may or may not be what the builds in the future morph into
Thanks in advance
Nice to see Death and Taxes take the last Open!
It's a difference in about 4 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage
Control:
2 Mangara
2 mindcensor
Aggro:
2 crusader
1-2 Brimaz
1-2 other (Avenger, Aven, etc).
Honestly Mangara is the deciding factor between "Aggro" and "Control," even though we are a control deck most of the time
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Thanks for that little bit of insight
I like to run 4x Karakas but I am not sure that doing so is optimal, even with 3x Mangara anymore? Thoughts?
I didn't realize the two builds were so close. I go back and forth on Mangara. When it's good, it's wrecks people, but often I wonder if I just want more of other fliers.
Also, since I have a hate for WLL, I am really loving the inclusion of Linvala in the new list.
What are other peoples thoughts on it? I plan to test it tomorrow night msyelf
I haven't really liked 4x since the Legend rule change. When it used to state-based neutralize the opponent's copy, an extra one would fit our mana denial plan, while also serving as an answer to a card that is generally disruptive against us. I've since liked 3x because it is still very good against - Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Miracles and the Mirror (3/4ths of which don't run Wasteland, so one copy is sufficient). At 3x it's not uncommon that we see one early (mathematically in the first ~20 cards) or two in a long game, but the likelihood of it coming up in doubles early on is less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage
I haven't been running any Mangara for quite a while, so I can't say how much of a factor that change would influence my Karakas count. I think more important is what one's meta is. If you're seeing lots of Reanimator, Sneak and Show and Miracles, maybe 4x is good. Similarly if there are lots of decks that Mangara lock is particularly good against then I could see wanting to ensure that as much as possible - again maybe high saturation of Miracles or other control strategies. The more midrange strategies that I see - particularly Equipment based decks and XXB decks with -X/-X effects the less exciting a focus on Karakas + Mangara seems.
after a lot of testing i have cut the two brimaz entirely from my list, instead adding a third mindcensor and 4th serra avenger. so far haven't looked back, most of the games i've played i've normally won before brimaz even comes down. He's a powerful card, but often times the nail is already in the coffin by the time i have three counters on aether vial or the chance to hard cast him.
I agree. Each time I drew Brimaz he could have been literally any dork to win me the game; pure beatdown creatures are not necessary. The tokens doesn't even do anything if they have like a Deathrite or o Stoneforge in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Flying is just soooooooo much more important, Serra Avenger is just everything you want to dominate combat. I'll play 4 next time.
I got crushed by Jund yesterday. I feel like this matchup is nigh unwinnable as they play a metric ton of removal, sac effects, and can get around the mana denial strategy with DRS.
The only times I've won vs Jund was by having god draws and a god opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Yes, Jund is terribe, but Elves is way worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
You need to try keeping the PF engine and Liliana offline and sticking a Mom, if possible. RiP helps post-board, as does Liege. It's also one of the few match-ups where Brimaz is better than Crusader in the beater slot. Still terrible, though.
I just came back from the Star City Games sponsored Big Magic Open in Yokohama, Japan! I placed in the top 64 and went 6 and 3. There were just over 400 people there I believe. Here is the deck list I submitted:
Creature (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Flickerwisp
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Mirran Crusader
Spells (11)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Land (23)
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
Sideboard (15)
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spellskite
1x Cataclysm
1x Sunlance
I defeated RUG Delver twice (very easy match up. Even mulled to 5 twice in one set against them and still won handily), defeated BUG Thopter Foundry Combo (Jace/Lil/Thopter+Sword of the Meek for win cons), defeated ANT (luckily he screwed up mid combo but I still felt I had the match up down), Merflok (kept his vials off of 3 and kept his lands locked down to 2 so he couldn't cast TNN), and Sneak and Show (also a fairly easy match up).
I lost to BUG Delver (game one he had 2 5/6 goyfs swinging on turn 4, can't win that. The second game he just tempoed me out), Lost to dredge (game one was game one, won game two and kept a sketchy hand in game 3 due to a T2 RiP but he was able to go off and therapy it out of my hand before I could cast it), and Lost to Elves 0-2 which took a combined total of around 5 minutes.
Post event thoughts:
Dropping 2x Brimaz for 1x Serra Avenger (bringing them to 3x) and 1x Mirran Crusader was the best decision I ever made. Brimaz never really did anything for me in any match up and I'm not sure that even if I had a miser's copy that I would have been happy to draw it. Evasion is definitely the key in this deck and dropping him has worked out really well for me.
Dropping 1x Aven Mindcensor and 1x Flickerwisp for 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth on the other hand... not so much. I think 2x Aven is really really good and probably necessary. I really, really needed him instead of Spirit in a lot of match ups. However, having 1x available to me seems really good against a lot of strategies (including elves and especially things like enchantress) and I long for the time where I can get someone with a vial on 2 trying to draw extra cards. So I think I keep in one and bump Aven back up to 2x.
My board is a bit of a mess but I really need more TNN help, that's for sure. I dropped my 2x Enlightened Tutor which I think is the right move (it is card disadvantage and potentially a tempo loss) but I really need some more answers to TNN and probably elves.
The slots I definitely want to keep and have put in serious work are:
2x Ethersworn Canonist, 2x Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2x Oblivion Ring, 2x Rest in Peace, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Manriki-Gusari, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Ratchet Bomb
The slots I am unsure of are:
1x Spellskite, 1x Cataclysm, 1x Sunlance
Sunlance has actually really been helpful. Having a 5th piece of removal for T1 DRS, Delver, random goblins/merfolk, etc has been really good for me.
Spellskite I like against punishing fire decks. That card gives me the most trouble and having essentially a 5th mother of runes in match ups with the card can be really helpful. Plus you can always live the dream and equip it up to put on the beats.
Cataclysm... seems way too slow. I think in any match up I might want it I either die before I hit 4 mana or they just have better creatures that can outclass mine. I am thinking about putting in another piece of TNN hate over this just because I am just dead to that card.
1x Celestial Flare seems good but limited in non-TNN match ups.
1x Holy Light seems to be really good against TNN and other decks that have annoying X/1s (elves, goblin tokens, etc) so it seems like a more versatile answer.
1x Runed Halo naming TNN, Tendrils, etc might also be a more versatile answer. I am still trying to think of what to run here.
Any thoughts or comments would be most appreciated!
Celestial Flare is stellar removal; I never leave home without 2. Most decks nowadays run about a dozen dudes; swarm aggro has basically fallen off the map. C flare will almost always be decent to amazing.
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Has anybody been testing Krautmann's Arbiter build from BoM?
I was thinking:
-2 SFM
-4 SotL
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Mangara
-1 Ghost Quarter
and
+1 Mother of the Runes
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Mask of Memory
+4 Judge's Familiar
+3 Serra Avenger
---
What do people think of running some number of PtE in the SB of this version? It would help swing the game in our favor against Elves at least.
I'm new to the game. I'm in doubt about the correct use of flickerwisp.
Let's say i have a vial At 3 And My opponent attacks with a 3/3 And a 2/2: i vial in My flickerwisp exiling The 3/3 And blocking The 2/2... does the exiled creature return to the battlefield At The end step given that flickerwisp is no longer in play? Thanks
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@p0werslave: Yes your opponent's creature comes back at the end of turn. "At the beginning of the next end step" is a delayed trigger and doesn't care if the card causing the trigger is still in play or not. Similar to Sneak Attack. You activate it, and even if Sneak Attack leaves play before the end of turn you still need to sacrifice your creature at the end step.
Yes, it does return, since Flickerwisp isn't relevant to the trigger itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by p0werslave
Runed Halo has done some pretty stellar work for me. Won me games against Grindstone, Tendrils and True-Name Nemesis. I play two in the board.
Why in the Seven Hells would we play mask of memory without Jotun Grunt or cut SFM from the deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by carefulmug
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Greetings thread,
My name is mario and im a long time advocate of your enemy TES. I recently decided to learn D+T as the meta continues to be extremely hostile to TES, however I still want my opponent to feel that they aren't playing magic. After seeing the merfolk list that top8'd the scg open with MD chalice of the void, I got to brewing with this shell as I believe it has the best potential for it.
This is what I have come up with:
I want to run a cavern heavy version to support these chalices and the human theme helps play around daze and the resurgence of spell snare/counterbalance considerably, hence the heavy human theme. Clearly, flickerwisp and serra avenger are barely castable now, but honestly is there considerably value over them and mirran crusader? Additionally, weathered wayfarer continues to impress me as an insane engine just as potable as mother of runes vs the 3 color midrange decks. Furthermore, i have found kitchen finks to be absolutely critical in the bug and jund matchups and will likely go up a copy. Looking forward to some critical feedback. And yes, I have read the primer on mtgs.Quote:
3 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 AEther Vial
2 Weathered Wayfarer
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 2 Weathered Wayfarer
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
The human theme with Caverns does let you play them through a Chalice of the Void, however it doesn't help you with Swords and Vials. You'll notice that Jonathan Aiken's list doesn't run vials or 1 mana removal. It is an interesting list, 4 caverns is a lot and depending on your draws, could be a whole lot of colorless mana. There is a list out there in Angel Stompy (I think the thread in New and Developing is called Tax and Taxes) where you play the Sol Lands with Chalice and most of the creatures closely resemble DnT's creature package.Quote:
Originally Posted by mario91234
I actually find that the colorless mana is fine since we either 1-curve out, 2-play vial, or 3-tap lands for the early game. I've had little issue with it.
Has anyone tried Blind Obedience at all. Surely this card was at least discussed but I couldn't really find any serious discussion on it. I realize it's a tempo card and not a creature with abilities on a stick but having your opponents creatures come in tapped does have the potential to be a type of taxing card. Extort certainly could be useful in the mid game onwards. Not so sure we have the mana for it in the early game and if we do, we probably should have mulled.
It feels like it was just passed over