All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by maharis

My point is that Deathrite is only a component of a shell that has gained a lot more over the past few years than other shells. Yes Fatal Push is black, but as a 1 cmc instant it just slots right into the existing Uxxxxxx decks without any trouble -- especially in decks that want as many efficient spells as possible to draw off their cantrips. Push even synergizes with the other component of the Xerox engine in fetchlands.

To the extent that DRS needs to be banned for supercharging Grixis decks, Fatal Push has done a significant amount as well. Note that I don't think DRS should be banned on its own, nor that Fatal Push is bannable. But the idea that you can stop these decks from dominating by taking out just DRS is what I disagree with. These decks have received several high-power printings that have pushed the format in that direction.

Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor aren't blue either, but they synergize far better with blue decks/strategies than their native colors. You can try to trigger YP with Punishing Fire, Loam and Raven's Crime, but that's much clunkier than just playing it with Brainstorm and buddies. You can delve away Thoughtseizes and Sinkholes to Gurmag Angler, but it's easier to just flush all your used Ponders.

Similarly, Tarmogoyf was the original "rewards you for playing Magic" creature, and Stoneforge's role in blue control decks is much more key to its power level than its role in, say, D&T. Those cards have been pushed aside in favor of many of the cards I mentioned for a reason. Angler is often bigger than Goyf, YP/Mentor often faster/more compact than SFM.

I understand that you don't think there needs to be a ban. To be clear: I actually agree. My view on the format is:

-Don't ban anything and actually unban stuff
-If you're going to ban to target midrange/value strategies, go nuclear because one piece ain't cutting it

I don't expect many people to agree, nor do I think this is what Wizards will do. I just enjoy discussing the format. Honestly, posting in this thread gets me thinking about decks that can beat powerful cards.

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Your argument is that non-blue cards can be splashed into blue shells, therefore making blue decks stronger than non-blue decks, which doesn't make any sense. It's not these non-blue cards that are the catalyst. SFM doesn't make blue better than non-blue. If U/x Stoneblade has an edge over D&T, it's not because SFM is more powerful in U/x than mono white, it's because U/x itself is more powerful than mono white. It's independent of SFM.

I can agree with you about Pyromancer and Mentor, those cards are much better in blue shells because blue is better at facilitating their on-cast triggers. I can agree with you about the Delve threats, too. I didn't mention either of those in my previous response.

Fatal Push isn't better in blue than non-blue decks because it's a new powerful card that they now have access to. Fatal Push helped boost any deck that was in black. If the blue decks got a boost, so did non-blue decks. This card has nothing to do with why blue is or isn't stronger than non-blue decks.

I do agree with you that "one piece doesn't cut it", though.

The problem that you are trying to get at is that most cards non-blue decks can use, can also be used by blue decks, and since blue decks are more consistent because of cantrips and more versatile because of Force of Will, they tend to be better than non-blue decks. Here's the thing though: the only solution to this is to go nuclear on the format (like you said), but going nuclear on the format is going to be far more damaging than leaving things the way they are (which it also seems like you agree with).

Honestly, the only thing I disagreed with you about was your point about Fatal Push, Tarmogoyf, and SFM making blue decks better than non-blue decks. I agree with the rest.

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Originally Posted by maharis

My point is that Deathrite is only a component of a shell that has gained a lot more over the past few years than other shells. Yes Fatal Push is black, but as a 1 cmc instant it just slots right into the existing Uxxxxxx decks without any trouble -- especially in decks that want as many efficient spells as possible to draw off their cantrips. Push even synergizes with the other component of the Xerox engine in fetchlands.

To the extent that DRS needs to be banned for supercharging Grixis decks, Fatal Push has done a significant amount as well. Note that I don't think DRS should be banned on its own, nor that Fatal Push is bannable. But the idea that you can stop these decks from dominating by taking out just DRS is what I disagree with. These decks have received several high-power printings that have pushed the format in that direction.

Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor aren't blue either, but they synergize far better with blue decks/strategies than their native colors. You can try to trigger YP with Punishing Fire, Loam and Raven's Crime, but that's much clunkier than just playing it with Brainstorm and buddies. You can delve away Thoughtseizes and Sinkholes to Gurmag Angler, but it's easier to just flush all your used Ponders.

Similarly, Tarmogoyf was the original "rewards you for playing Magic" creature, and Stoneforge's role in blue control decks is much more key to its power level than its role in, say, D&T. Those cards have been pushed aside in favor of many of the cards I mentioned for a reason. Angler is often bigger than Goyf, YP/Mentor often faster/more compact than SFM.

I understand that you don't think there needs to be a ban. To be clear: I actually agree. My view on the format is:

-Don't ban anything and actually unban stuff
-If you're going to ban to target midrange/value strategies, go nuclear because one piece ain't cutting it

I don't expect many people to agree, nor do I think this is what Wizards will do. I just enjoy discussing the format. Honestly, posting in this thread gets me thinking about decks that can beat powerful cards.

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One thing that's important to note and that was touched on in the recent Mana Drain article on Xerox decks: Cantrips may be broken and absurdly cheap, but Xerox decks have a much higher preference and need for hyperefficient cards because as strong as the cantrips are, casting them still slows the Xerox deck down. That mana taken up by casting them has to be compensated in card choices to an extent. Push is a bigger buff to Xerox decks than it is to, their GBW-colored cousins, for example.

Ban mtgo

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Originally Posted by Zombie

One thing that's important to note and that was touched on in the recent Mana Drain article on Xerox decks: Cantrips may be broken and absurdly cheap, but Xerox decks have a much higher preference and need for hyperefficient cards because as strong as the cantrips are, casting them still slows the Xerox deck down. That mana taken up by casting them has to be compensated in card choices to an extent. Push is a bigger buff to Xerox decks than it is to, their GBW-colored cousins, for example.

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Hyper-efficiency is valuable to any deck. There's a reason why Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, and similar cards see much less play than cards like Swords to Plowshares, even in the GBW decks.

The fact that some of the Xerox decks are gravitating towards Kologhan's Command is also the opposite of efficency.

I get what you're saying. Cantrips do cost mana, and the cost is not insignificant; mana efficient threats and answers pair well in the Xerox decks. But at the same time, the deck that just won the SCG Open was running the Xerox package and a bunch of inefficient threats in 4 TNN, 2 Leo, 1 JTMS, etc.

So my point is that hyper-efficiency isn't really better in blue than in non-blue, as it is important for both, and that Xerox can also use inefficient threats/answers too.

EDIT: Going back to my earlier point about why DRS is so heavily played... the reason why hyper-efficiency is so important these days is because of mana denial. Wasteland, Port, Ghost Quarter, Tabernacle, Daze, Pierce, Thalia, Spheres, Choke, Back to Basics, etc. Mana denial is as much a problem for Xerox as it is for non-blue decks.

EDIT2: Well, mana denial is only part of it. The fact that the format is full of powerful efficient threats requires that decks play efficient answers. You cannot expect to win when your opponent's threats cost 1 mana and your removal spells cost 3 mana. It's legit to play more expensive more powerful threats (like TNN), but if you're going to play answers, they either need to be efficient, or they need to be better than a 1-for-1.

printing some new combo cards could help quite a bit. it seems the last major cards to be contributed to combo have been past in flames, craterhoof behemoth, griselbrand, and thespian's stage. (since 2011) the main issue here is that there's been plenty of other cards to benefit non-combo. many times a combo deck can ignore cards like deathrite shaman, delver of secrets, tarmogoyf etc. imagine elves being played now without craterhoof, or sneak and show without griselbrand, or hexdepths/lands without stage. ANT without past in flames. a single unique card can allow for a tier 2 unique combo deck to turn into something strong enough to compete with the tier 1 good stuff decks.

we will see more metagame diversity with the printing of some more unique combo cards that don't necessarily need to fit inside a shell of cantrips, or looking to midrange + 2 card combo kill.

you can also probably include faithless looting for LED dredge as a big upgrade for that combo deck as well. (also innistrad)

This is an interesting article. Not so much for the B&R recommended changes, but more for the discussions about how the list is managed - something we should pay more attention to if we are going to have worth while discourse in this thread.

https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...ight-approach/

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

This is an interesting article. Not so much for the B&R recommended changes, but more for the discussions about how the list is managed - something we should pay more attention to if we are going to have worth while discourse in this thread.

https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...ight-approach/

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I would have enjoyed the article a lot more if it didn't go down the B&R lane and remained talking about list Management.

Reading the Dark Ritual -> Mindtwist argument is as misplaced as it was 10 years ago. It's like pointing to Spirit of the Night to claim that Oath would be safe. Why isn't even a single big-mana-deck among the likes of Elves, NicFit, 12-Post, etc even mentioned?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Reading the Dark Ritual -> Mindtwist argument is as misplaced as it was 10 years ago. It's like pointing to Spirit of the Night to claim that Oath would be safe. Why isn't even a single big-mana-deck among the likes of Elves, NicFit, 12-Post, etc even mentioned?

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It was a very poor argument. I personally think Elves won't get that much better and the other 2 decks I'm prefer to see get a boost. But definitely worth mentioning these decks. Also Tezz.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I would have enjoyed the article a lot more if it didn't go down the B&R lane and remained talking about list Management.

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We agree! <3

Although I think the "B&R lane" was there mostly as examples of applying the list management principles I think. They were all pretty brief.

That article is just more propaganda from Bob Huang on his crusade against DRS...

I don't like CFB's involvment in B&R list regulation. And wizards are just sucking their **** especailly now when they are officially exclusive GP organizer. Disgusting on many levels.

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Originally Posted by Mr Miagi

I don't like CFB's involvment in B&R list regulation. And wizards are just sucking their **** especailly now when they are officially exclusive GP organizer. Disgusting on many levels.

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I'm not sure it's fair to attach the site views directly to the writers views. I understand the site published the article, but that doesn't mean they endorse the content within. As long as it meets the criteria set up in their publishing standards it's ok.

This is Bob's view not CFB as a brand.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

It was a very poor argument. I personally think Elves won't get that much better and the other 2 decks I'm prefer to see get a boost. But definitely worth mentioning these decks. Also Tezz.

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I mean, it's fine to avoid a quality analysis of slots like Mindtwist vs Nissa vs Natural Order in Elves for example, but avoiding even a single sentence on all the Legacy decks with large, permanent mana access and trying to make a point based on one-shot mana accelerants is awkward. Bob knows better, so that I agree with the other members speculation here, that this and other passages of the article are just there to cloak the real intent.

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Originally Posted by Mr Miagi

I don't like CFB's involvment in B&R list regulation. And wizards are just sucking their **** especailly now when they are officially exclusive GP organizer. Disgusting on many levels.

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It's dangerous if someone with a grip on the secondary market is somewhat able to influence B&R decisions. For my taste its filthy enough that WotC cooperates directly with the secondary market

Wasn't it CFB that intentionally ran a subvert campaign to spike the Mercadian Masques pirates, with the help of a few users on here and reddit?

And now they're influencing the B&R list?

Fun.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Wasn't it CFB that intentionally ran a subvert campaign to spike the Mercadian Masques pirates, with the help of a few users on here and reddit?

And now they're influencing the B&R list?

Fun.

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No, it seems that was just a few people who had a bit of fun.

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

That article is just more propaganda from Bob Huang on his crusade against DRS...

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The article is just a small part of his campaign though - his refusal to stop top 8ing events with the deck is the real disgrace. I think Bob should be banned from playing DRS decks, since he's clearly top 8ing for malicious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Wasn't it CFB that intentionally ran a subvert campaign to spike the Mercadian Masques pirates, with the help of a few users on here and reddit?

And now they're influencing the B&R list?

Fun.

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And we would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those pesky Nic Fit players.

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Originally Posted by iatee

The article is just a small part of his campaign though - his refusal to stop top 8ing events with the deck is the real disgrace. I think Bob should be banned from playing DRS decks, since he's clearly top 8ing for malicious reasons.

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I genuinely can't tell whether you're deadpanning with this.

Is there a point where a player could be banned from a format?

Bob's been maliciously making t8s on his crusade against Deathrite Shaman, he already did it with Treasure Cruise, and people enjoyed playing with that card. Not to mention spearheading the subvert campaign for CFB to spike Pirate cards as a user above mentioned.

I wonder what's next?

Modern Humans port to Legacy in4spikes, duh.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I mean, it's fine to avoid a quality analysis of slots like Mindtwist vs Nissa vs Natural Order in Elves for example, but avoiding even a single sentence on all the Legacy decks with large, permanent mana access and trying to make a point based on one-shot mana accelerants is awkward. Bob knows better, so that I agree with the other members speculation here, that this and other passages of the article are just there to cloak the real intent.

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I don't think the potential for blowout Mind Twists are better than playing many of the other big haymakers available to these decks. Doesn't affect things on board, can't control the draw step, big sorcery-speed investment in a format where Force is in 60% of decks, etc. I don't think there's a way that Elves could play a Twist for >2 on turn 2 anyway, and turn 3 discard 3+ is pretty fair considering what else Elves could be doing that turn or what other decks do at that time.

An artifact deck could go like:

Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith
Urborg -> twist for 5

But isn't just playing Reality Smasher there better? It's as good as a Hymn if they remove it, and if they don't the game is just over in 4 turns.

That's not to say there can't be a good Mind Twist deck but that deck would have to be insane to be better than what's available now.