Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You are wrong.
Slap down a Mystic and you're all set? Are you kidding me? I've seen Goblin decks defeating Miracle Blade even with Batterskull on the table, post-Terminus. Is Batterskull powerful? Yes. Is SFM + Batterskull + Snapcaster Mage the universal solution in today's Meta? No. Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participant Legacy tournament in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Just because typical Miracle deck would lose to all those "rampant/abundant" 12-post decks, that does Not mean SFM package is the solution. If you Really want to put your opponent on clock, you should run Geist, not SFM package.
Well, you are right, and wrong.
Yes, Miracleblade still dies to Goblins, even with Skull on board. Yes, Miracleblade did not finish any high-profile tournaments lately. Yes, Geist is the better clock.
BUT
The main purpose of Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull is not only for having a clock! It does provide a clock, that's right, but this is not the mainpoint. The very reason to have this package in the deck is having access to a Lifegain-machine, access to a clock, access to a gameplan if our primary plan does work and access to a stalling-machine. These points are what makes Miracleblade a valid choice for the Miracles archetype.
I am still testing which version of this deck is the strongest, I've invited alot of good german/austrian players to a talk. We could not come to a conclusion everyone would agree on. Same here on this thread, it's not like we could ever come to a point where like everyone would say "That's the best list."... I mean if there were valid statistics, like 50% of all Miracledudes played Blade, the other half RIP/Helm and over a peroid of so and so many weeks/months this side has more Top8s at the same tournaments or something like this there could be a winner. As this is not possible I think we have to stick to personal likings/thinkings and trustings.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You are wrong.
...
Top 8 a SCG:Open, or some 100+ participants Legacy tournaments in Europe with Miracle-Blade, then we'll re-evaluate.
Something like winning the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - Dallas?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=69564
How about these?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I said Today's Meta, not something from 2012. If you look at the only data you present on 2013, which is the one in Japan, that Miracle has not only SFM, it also has Punishing Fire combo. Now, how do we attribute his success solely to SFM, but not Punishing Fire? Please present Valid argument and data.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I said Today's Meta, not something from 2012.
I figured you'd back track. Thank you for proving that you are narrow-minded. I won't waste any time trying to convince of something you don't want to be convinced of.
By the way: why choose when you can do both?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=72242
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just wanted to point out that November 2012-today has seen exactly one expansion set released (Gatecrash), so I'd definitely look at anything late 2012 as "today's" meta. Not sure why you wouldn't.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Just wanted to point out that November 2012-today has seen exactly one expansion set released (Gatecrash), so I'd definitely look at anything late 2012 as "today's" meta. Not sure why you wouldn't.
Because rather than admit fault, it's easier to just ignore data and continue with a mindset we like. Rather than dismissing ideas, lets discuss them and then after discussing them decide whether they are viable or not? And not before.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I wish they still wrote the metagame column on starcity as frequently as they did a year ago. It is easy, and dangerous, to place a lot of significance on small sample sizes. The RIP Miracle deck made top 8 in Denver. Obviously that is important. To get in, he beat me in a one game match that was pretty close, which makes the result a little less convincing in my mind.
However, looking at a whole string of tournaments makes a stronger case (against me).
I did a little research and (while this isn't shocking) it is interesting.
After RIP was printed and before Andrew beats me in the last round to make top 8 of Denver:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 5
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 0
After Denver up until the present:
SCG Top 8's for counterbalance/miracles: 1 (me)
SCG Top 8's for RIP/Helm versions: 6
That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.
The RIP versions should be better against anything where RIP is relevant, and my version should be better against everything else. That may not be true, but it seems reasonable in theory. An important question is how much better is RIP versus something like RUG Delver? And how much of the metagame is RIP good against? I don't have an answer to those, but I believe that the difference is not enough to justify playing RIP main for myself.
But what is right for one person does not make it right for others. Plus I could be wrong.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
RiP/Helm could be better. Could also be flavor of the month syndrome (something new and cool, now everyone play the same deck list!!!111).
In metas that are heavy with decks that rely on their yards (Reanimator, Dredge, Jund, RUG Threshold, Esper Blade, etc), RiP/Helm is probably better. Otherwise, I'd go with Miracle Blade or some other variation in a meta with decks that don't need their yard that much or not at all (Goblins, Storm, Sneak Attack, 12-posts, etc). RiP is a pretty awful card if the other player is not using their graveyard.
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
That is a pretty massive change. It is possible that the RIP version is better. It is also possible that I am the only person still playing without maindeck RIP, which doesn't tell us much other than that I am stubborn, but also explains the lack of results.
I'm usually slow as a snail to change decks and for a long time I was playing a list very similar to yours. I loved the play of the deck, but I was really unhappy with my Goblins and Jund MU so I decided to try Miracleblade (I say Jund, but I'm also including the various Deathrite value decks like BUG or RUGb cascade for example).
I played Miracleblade for a month or so and the deck is very powerful. Occasionally there were awkward circumstances where the SFM was trying to make my hand aggressive and Counterbalance/Terminus were trying to make me more defensive. The Goblins MU improved quite a bit, but it was still a battle unless I could protect an early Jitte. I decided to try RiP for three reasons:
1. My meta includes Dredge and Reanimator and I was tired of having to devote ~3-4 SB slots to GY hate. Usually I'm not too worried about Dredge and honestly g1 is still winnable if you have a FoW/Swords heavy hand, but being able to consistently steal g1 from Dredge (and to a lesser extent Reanimator) changes the MU completely.
2. I was still unhappy with my Goblins and Jund MUs. I was basically Miracles splashing SFM in order to beat these MUs and while good, SFM wasn't good enough. It doesn't guarantee a win against Goblins by any means. Between Bolt, PFire, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana, Jund has enough removal to make Batterskull glacially slow to come online. They have no good ways to remove it permanently, so Batterskull will eventually stick, but half the time it is too late and there's a solid chance it can't get around their 5/6 Goyf anyways (Land, Instant, Sorcery, Creature, Enchantment is ridiculously easy to hit against Jund).
Energy Field solves Goblins. Jund is still a difficult MU, but I no longer have to worry as much about Goyf/Deathrite/PFire. My defensive game is better against them because now they must divide their Decays between RiP and Counterbalance and my offensive game is improved because I have an additional way to one-shot them where before I was almost all in on Entreat.
3. I'd been mising Enlightened Tutor for a while as a 5th Top and additional way to set up my Counterbalance with awkward cmcs like 3. The next best thing to t1 Top is pass, EoT Tutor, untap, play land, play Top. The fact that Enlightened Tutor is at its best in the RiP builds finally sold me. I wanted to be playing more virtual Tops and in addition to the other uses I'd had, Tutor was now also a wincon.
RiP isn't the end all and maybe there will come a time when I can switch back to the pure version, but for the current meta it is definitely solid. It is good so many places and when it isn't good in itself there's a solid chance that Energy Field is. G1 against Show and Tell has a whole new angle to it also.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Some great points being made here. I'm coming from more of a ThopterBalance background, and I definitely agree with Dzra that the enlightened tutor functioning as virtual copies of cards is somewhere I want to be, and RIP is the most powerful version of that.
At least locally for me, RIP is dead maybe 1 match in 6 or 7, so there's no justification for not having it. Energy Field locks out a lot of the matches where RIP itself doesn't seal the deal. The only times I'm not happy to draw RIP are against the mirror and show and tell. If RIP is the 'flavor of the month', it tastes pretty good in Atlanta. :)
In terms of how much it changes the Thresh (RUG Delver) matchup - night and day. Before we were a slight underdog, now we are favored. I have not lost to Thresh with a RIP list (at least 5 matches).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
I totally back that statement.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
RiP/Helm could be better.
If I had to go into a blind meta, I'd pick Miracle Blade over RiP/Helm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
RiP isn't the end all and maybe there will come a time when I can switch back to the pure version, but for the current meta it is definitely solid. It is good so many places and when it isn't good in itself there's a solid chance that Energy Field is. G1 against Show and Tell has a whole new angle to it also.
There are more evidences from SCG Kansas City, Punishing Fire combo is now being used in Nick-Fit and Lands.
DragoFireheart's stuck at 2012, when most people has moved onto 2013. Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Unless you have the credential to justify like Joe or that Japanese guy, you have no case.
I don't need to have any credentials to show that MiracleBlade has put up numbers and recently enough that it's a viable strategy. Just because you choose to cherry pick data does not make your opinion valid. If anything, refusing to acknowledge valid and relevant data makes your opinion less valid. It's not like Gatecrash introduced a specific card that suddenly made MiracleBlade horrible.
Oh, and good job on ignoring my previous post where I actually posted about the event where Miracles used Punishing Fire.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The list from KC is mine. The Tarns should be more Deltas, I don't know why I had those, but it never came up as a problem. The list was sweet, but I wasn't disappointed in my play in several of my matches, check out g3 of the camera feature match for examples. I definitely need to test more against Jund, as I don't like the boarding plan I used on my win-and-in r7 which I lost. My matches were as follows:
Rector Show and Tell 2-1
Ug Enchantress 2-1
Rock 2-1
Jund Nic Fit 1-2
Wgb Nic Fit 2-0
Fish 2-1
Jund 1-2
Ant 2-1
Sorry for the short post, I am on my phone.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Why did you choose to run Punishing Fire over SFM/BS or RiP/Helm?
Why do you have Gesit of Saint Traft in the board?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I ran Fires since I wanted something which shored up both the aggro and the control matchups, particularly Esper, that wasn't vulneable to removal such as Abrupt Decay, STP, and the like.
The Geists come in against combo, Esper/the mirror, and decks that run relatively low amounts of creatures like Tim Wilson's Nic Fit or burn.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shawn
The list from KC is mine. The Tarns should be more Deltas, I don't know why I had those, but it never came up as a problem. The list was sweet, but I wasn't disappointed in my play in several of my matches, check out g3 of the camera feature match for examples. I definitely need to test more against Jund, as I don't like the boarding plan I used on my win-and-in r7 which I lost. My matches were as follows:
Rector Show and Tell 2-1
Ug Enchantress 2-1
Rock 2-1
Jund Nic Fit 1-2
Wgb Nic Fit 2-0
Fish 2-1
Jund 1-2
Ant 2-1
Sorry for the short post, I am on my phone.
How did the manabase treat you? Seems a little hard to consistently get UU, but it's definitely a cool build!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I myself have been thinking of putting punishing fire into a uw counterbalance shell. The R.I.P. version of the deck is pretty much the best deck to beat the unfair decks while the PF builds add a late game engine to help out against midrange/rock like matchups while also adding value points in control mirrors. It is choice in my opinion but honestly I think the meta is better suited for R.I.P. with all the grislebrand, and thresh decks floating around.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I don't think Punishing Fire is bad in here. I'm sure it'd be nice in certain MUs. I just don't think that it is at its best here, just like Stoneforge is good but only really at its best in Stoneblade. Something like Jund is a really good place for Punishing Fire. Despite Jund and us both being "slower" decks in the format, Jund is much more attrition based than us.
Because Jund is constantly 2-for-1ing and pecking at their opponents' life total, they can actually put the 1 damage per turn to use rather than just having more spot removal. We are durdling, durdling, durdling, kill you out of nowhere. Punishing Fire and Stoneforge are both really powerful cards, but from a theoretical standpoint those cards are much better in their respective decks.
What was the problem that you had with the Jund Nic Fit deck (was it one that top 16'd or another list)? I think the Nic Fit version that uses Scapeshift/Valakut could be problematic, but the others don't strike me as awful.
