By the time you get to 6 mana, you should easily have either WW or BB available, if not both - I usually have both.
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By the time you get to 6 mana, you should easily have either WW or BB available, if not both - I usually have both.
I'm not a fan of running that many 6-drops at all.
I only ran 3 5-drops (Sigarda +2x Baneslayer) and 1 Kokusho, aswell as 2 Elspeth and Moat as the only other cards that need double mana costs, which means you alwasy get WW first in the early/mid game and you will get BB somewhere in the late-game for Kokusho loops.
The colors shouldn't usually be a problem in this deck. Is the Stronghold a 23rd land, or is it taking the place of a color producer? I guess it'd be easiest for you to just post your mana base, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
I ran 3 6-drops some number of months ago, and it was too clunky, so I cut Yosei, leaving Sun Titan and Kokusho. If you're running Moat, IMO you need Kokusho. If you aren't running Moat, you can make a solid argument for running Grave Titan instead. It all hinges on Moat or no Moat...that determines a lot of core decisions for the deck.
I'd agree Grave Titan is the weakest of the 3 in a Rector build. Sun Titan will be recurring something with higher impact than 2 Zombies and with Rector into Nightmare, Kokusho provides a way to seal a kill outside the combat step.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
I can see not wanting to cut Grave Titan though it is a great means to clog the ground up against agro, especially I one's list doesn't feature Moat to fill that role.
I think the deck can afford 3 colorless sources in a 22 land build, so long as you keep your mana curve reasonable and especially take into account your early stabilizers' mana costs. I have really liked 2 PTowers and a Stronghold as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Academy Rector
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Phyrexian Arena
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Innocent Blood
1 Vindicate
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
That's my most recent list. Trying to get a Moat (anyone want to trade a Moat for a Tabernacle ;) ) since Goblins have been trouble for me.
Also looking to get a Sigarda and/or Baneslayer in there. Probably dropping 1 Pulse, 1-2 of the Plowshares, E-tutor, maybe the Entreat. (Entreat has been sweet more often than not, but it sucks pretty bad when it's not.) Another Witness would be nice too. Too many cards, too few slots.
Last time out w/ this list I beat Belcher (lucky), and UR Delver. Lost to Reanimator/S&T and Burn (sided out Pridemage, he sided in Vortex. File that one under: things not to do. Sigh).
I would definitely drop Entreat. Nic Fit has plenty of broken things to do in the late game as it is and w/o Brainstorm or Liliana it's a brick in your hand if you see it in the first 10 cards or so.
I would use the slot to get a 2nd Eternal Witness into the main.
Yeah, can Entreat. It isn't that good in this deck. I'd also drop one of your 6's for a 3rd Top, and the Horizon Canopy for a 2nd Savannah.
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Now, for something totally different.
I had a thought last night, as I was looking over my sideboard for an event this weekend. Everything the deck does can be classified into one of three categories: Hooks, Needles, and Engines.
Vs High Tide is the clearest example.
The deck runs two primary tutor packages (GSZ and Rector), as well as a host of spells alongside. These packages can get Engines, like Nightmare, Arena, Veteran Explorers, Eternal Witnesses, and so on. But they can also get Hooks -- dedicated, ludicrously powerful cards that stop certain strategies cold, but are rarely seen due to their mana cost.
The way I broke it down is such:
High Tide Hooks
Rector: Nether Void
GSZ: Ichneumon Druid
Spell: Cranial Extraction, Memoricide, Tsunami
High Tide Needles
Extirpate, Aven Mindcensor,
High Tide Engines
Carpet of Flowers
Hooks are the death blows, the atomic bombs. They're what the opposing deck can't possibly answer. While Chains of Mephistopheles gets close, I'm slowly realizing that Nether Void is actually the Rector target I want for storm combo. They can't beat it literally ever, whereas Storm can, sometimes, painfully, get around Chains. If I set a Rector off, I want the most broken enchantment with it that I can possibly get. A well-aimed Cranial Extraction or Memoricide serves the same function. Unfortunately we don't have an amazing GSZ target in this regard....Ichneumon is pretty good, but he's going to get EoT bounced unless there's other hate backing him up. He's about the best GSZ has got, though. I don't count Teeg because our other Hooks cost 4 and are not creatures, and their power level is higher overall than Teeg.
Needles are the little annoying things that aren't death knells for our opponent, but will slow him down and, if left unchecked, grievously injure him. Extirpating all of High Tide's cantrips or tutors is going to leave them still functional, but a lot more likely to whiff. Mindcensor on a fetchland or a Merchant Scroll can likewise make them stumble. These are the cards that are designed to buy us some time while the Hooks get set up.
Engines are the other stuff, the cards that make the deck work. Specific anti-High Tide Engines would include Carpet of Flowers, but I would also lump Eternal Witness and Phyrexian Arena into this category, as they help recur or draw into more Hooks and Needles.
Examples of Hooks for Sneak/Show:
Rector: Humility
GSZ: Willow Satyr
Spell: Cranial, Memoricide, Extirpate
Miracles:
Rector: Raking Canopy
GSZ: TUSK
Spell: Cranial, Memoricide, Tsunami
Goblins:
Rector: Moat
GSZ: N/A [Maybe Empath->Titan]
Spell: Wrath of God / Damnation / Terminus
And so on.
This last example brings me to an interesting point, by the by -- have we ever considered running Terminus ourselves? We've focused a lot on using TUSK defensively against other players' Terminus, but it seems to me we could go the other way with it, too. Wrath their board and be left with a 3/3? Seems decent. I dunno, it's something to think about.
TL;DR we should try to take the paradigm of the silver bullet a little further. We can run not just "a" silver bullet, but the "perfect" silver bullet, due to our unique tutoring and mana generative capabilities. What are some other good Hooks and Needles?
Angel's Grace will help slow Hive Mind. Sudden Spoiling can help slow Sneak Attack. Both could potentially be recycled with Volrath/Nightmare + Eternal Witness.
Gaddock Teeg will serve as a Needle for several decks, including Show and Tell (stop Sneak Attack), Hive Mind (Hive Mind), UW Miracles (Jace, Entreat, Terminus)
Curse of Death's Hold serves as a Hook and kills Death and Taxes, Elves, and maybe Goblins.
Grave Pact can be a Hook or Needle against opposing Nic Fit decks, depending on your board.
For more traditional hate, Leyline of Sanctity can slow Pox and Burn, and builds with Primeval Titan can use Karakas to fight Sneak Attack.
As far as Terminus, I've played an x1 of it for fun but never really found it useful. I think it has to be run in the 2-3 range, and then you have to consider how often it will be used since you'll likely draw it and have some board presence that you don't want to throw away. Killing your own Thragtusk might not be for the best.
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Not to change thread course off of the Hooks and Needles, but would a disruption-heavy GB Nic Fit be better than Rector Fit for a Show and Tell heavy meta? Something with 4 Therapy, 2-4 Hymn, 2-4 1cc Discard, 2-4 Liliana for disruption. Basically I have consistent showings for Sneak Show, Dream Halls, and Hive Mind (also running Show and Tell) who have placed 1-2-3 in the last several tournaments. On top of this I'll have some aggro, enchantress, and burn to deal with.
The Sideboard needs to be prepared to beat combo. I ran 4 therapy, 2 hymn, 2 Liliana, and a one of inquisition, and still ha trouble even after board. Not as bad vs reanimator thanks to leylines, but SnT can still be an issue
Dovescape I like this card a lot against combo. GSZ for all your mana -> Zerg. It's a catch all against storm decks and Sneak Attack/SNT because:
Sneak Attack can get 3 or 4 birds from their sneak/snt, but won't ever have the mana to cast emrakul or griselbrand.
Storm decks typically run low CC spells in order to avoid dying to Ad Nauseam. Past in Flames is their only high CC spell and they can only get there with rituals, but rituals only make birds :)
Spiral Tide has plenty of spells, and a bunch of them with high CC (Turnabout, Time Spiral). Luckily, they can't counter anything with Force of Will, or they'd get 5 birds. You should survive this though, you have GSZ to zerg and actual creatures such as Thragtusk
I think it's better than Nethervoid / Humility because you are diluting sideboard space by using a split.
In a Punishing fire build how many groves should I run? Right now I have been running three
I think I get what Qweerios is saying about dropping 1 Pulse for the 4th deed. Against the most aggressive creatures in the format (flipped delvers, goblin tokens, and to some extent zombie tokens) a pulse and a deed are virtually identical. While Pulse is better at hitting midrange creatures (and fatties) before turn 4, once you have 6-7 mana, deed becomes much much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Did a few quick games with a GB and didn't like that it failed so much, so sticking with GBw.
I actually like Dovescape. Quirky, high CC enchantment that plays well with a few of our high CC spells and lets the likes of Sun Titan still do its thing. Seals the deal against combo decks if Rector can push it out fast enough.
I'm not sure if I like it strictly replacing Humility vs Show and Tell because there are situations where you need to deal an incoming Eldrazi or Griselbrand, and it does not do well if it comes down late with Sneak Attack on board already.
I personally rather use Crime // Punishment over Maelstrom Pulse, but I'm currently running neither. Crime has synergy with Pernicious Deed and with Punishment, can make Green Sun's Zenith for Eternal Witness a rather swingy play, depending on what you blew up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I'd like to talk alittle more about the Jund version.
Are there any engines that can be introduced to the deck?
Can you breakdown the current board, on why you selected those specific choices?
The manabase feels shaky. Why are fetches not an option?
@Claymore: Give my most recent GB a try. The list can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...h-Place-Report
I have few problems with combo especially post-board. Just learn the key cards in each matchup and make wise mulliganing decisions and you should be fine.
@Megadeus: I run 3 in my P-Fire build and am happy with that number.
@mossivo1986: You can run fetches in the Jund version. They're perfectly acceptable in Punishing Fire or regular Jund builds, but less good in Valakut builds
@Everybody onboard with Dovescape: We're trying to take away their win-con and prison them out, not try and let them have a different one. Play more high impact cards that are good and actually castable i.e. Chains of Mephistopheles, Nether Void, Humility etc.
We don't need to be cute, we need to win.
Honeyt: that's almost a third of your sideboard gone to enchantments with only 2 rectors in the deck. I get that you want to win, and yes, sometimelossy can still lose with d.scape in play. However d.scape is more widely applicable across all combo matchups ( except elves).
Nether void can simply be answered. It has terrible synergy with veteran explorer. Eot bounce, combo, done. Try getting out of a doves cape.
Being cute (using expensive legends rares for pimpness) doesn't mean you should fill your sideboard with so many different sliver bullets. I'd rather fill the rest of my sideboard with cards that are actually good against the matchup, like hymn to tourach.
Don't forget u also need a gsz silver bullet pack so it needs to be as condensed as possible. If d.scapr gets the job done, then it's fine. If you find yourself getting raced (hard to believe imo) by birds, then maybe you want something more specialized. I just don't see how a tendrils deck can put you into a losing position with LEDs, chrome moxeN petalsn and a bunch of rituals. I'm not afraid of a deck filled with blanks and scryb sprites.
Against omniscience combo, what do you do? Humility for Griselbrand making your clock suck so they get enough time to petals of insight you for infinite? Nether void sure doesn't work against snt (you run explorers). Chains is nice, but doesn't answer Griselbrand (7/7 flying lifelink) will swing for 14. Do escape shuts everything down. The deck has no black mana to hardcast griselbrand, and do escape annihilates their burning wish package as well as their omniscience hardcast.
Then there is sneak attack. I admit that humiity makes sense here, I'd dedicate a slot to humiity
the problem with all those is that, in my experience, show and tell can still play out from under a chains or humility (side board bounce). show and tell has the sickest topdeck in the format, not us...well maybe miracles by definition. I don't have too much experience with nether void against sneak show, but they generally can benefit just as much as us from our explore ramp, not to mention sol lands. dovescape, if landed before show and tell or sneak attack, will lock them out permanently
Qweerios: Can I just say that Life from the loam in BUG is just awesome? It, plus coiling oracle + top is just so much value.
@Star Scream,
Ya, that's why it's in nearly all of my Gifts piles. Great synergy with Wasteland, fetches, Gifts, Volrath Tower combo, Liliana, and Top.