[Deck] U/G Infect

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Originally Posted by qomori

Congrats on the finish at EW!

I was checking out the Top 24 thread and was hoping you were on here.

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Oh no, I've doxxed myself! For real though, feel free to say hi if you ever see me at a tournament.

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Originally Posted by qomori

How was running the Tundra? Also, now that you've had time to reflect on it, what are you thinking for a sideboard in a big open tournament meta?

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Someone on reddit asked a similar question about Tundra, which I responded to here. Ultimately running the Tundra is fine, it just comes with a different slew of problems than running the Savannah does. I'm not sure which is better overall but I do think there's a lot of merit to being able to fetch out all 3 colors when you start the game with a Pendelhaven or a basic Forest.

Regarding the sideboard, I've still got a couple of cards that I want to test out. In addition to extra threats (Thrun, Chameleon Colossus, TNN, Great Sable Stag) I've also given some serious consideration to Absolute Grace and a second Sylvan Library, all as ways to help the Grixis Control matchup. I was pretty fortunate to have dodged it for the entire tournament, but I do think Infect needs a better game plan for that deck if we want to hope to remain relevant. Also maybe room for a Spell Snare in the 75, as it hits Snapcaster, Baleful Strix, Jitte/Stoneforge, and all of the 2 mana sweepers that are currently seeing play.

Hi guys,

I've finally written an article about Infect. I've been thinking about writing this for quite some time now, since all of the articles out there are pretty outdated. It became quite a bit more than a simple matchup analysis and sideboarding guide. I actually quite enjoyed writing it so I just went all the way and wrote an entire player's guide. Please let me know what you think! Any feedback is much appreciated and I hope this article can help some of you. I'll try to keep it updated.

Feel free to share the link!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Cheers!
Sam

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Oh no, I've doxxed myself! For real though, feel free to say hi if you ever see me at a tournament.



Someone on reddit asked a similar question about Tundra, which I responded to here. Ultimately running the Tundra is fine, it just comes with a different slew of problems than running the Savannah does. I'm not sure which is better overall but I do think there's a lot of merit to being able to fetch out all 3 colors when you start the game with a Pendelhaven or a basic Forest.

Regarding the sideboard, I've still got a couple of cards that I want to test out. In addition to extra threats (Thrun, Chameleon Colossus, TNN, Great Sable Stag) I've also given some serious consideration to Absolute Grace and a second Sylvan Library, all as ways to help the Grixis Control matchup. I was pretty fortunate to have dodged it for the entire tournament, but I do think Infect needs a better game plan for that deck if we want to hope to remain relevant. Also maybe room for a Spell Snare in the 75, as it hits Snapcaster, Baleful Strix, Jitte/Stoneforge, and all of the 2 mana sweepers that are currently seeing play.

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I was actually thinking of Tundra once I decided on playing Mission Briefing, but I wasn't super thrilled with that.

I haven't tested Stag yet, but plan on that as well. I actually had an Absolute Grace in my SB for my last weekly before Saturday, but just dodged Grixis--seems great fo the reasons you mentioned in your Reddit thread.

Here's my 75 from last weekend: https://www.topdecked.me/decks/e7bab...4-01f2e0dc2366

If I were playing a bigger tournament soon, I'd move Dissenter's back to the main, cutting Briefing. And add Nature's Claim and Absolute Grace to the board, cutting Tezz's Gambit. My local meta has enough P Fire that Absolute Law is still pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Fenruscloud

Hi guys,

I've finally written an article about Infect. I've been thinking about writing this for quite some time now, since all of the articles out there are pretty outdated. It became quite a bit more than a simple matchup analysis and sideboarding guide. I actually quite enjoyed writing it so I just went all the way and wrote an entire player's guide. Please let me know what you think! Any feedback is much appreciated and I hope this article can help some of you. I'll try to keep it updated.

Feel free to share the link!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Cheers!
Sam

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Thanks for the write-up, overall a job very well done. There's a couple of places where my opinion differs:

"Fetchlands: This is horrible, don't play this."
Lands section under card choices
I think this is a joke, but maybe revise it anyway? Most new players will probably realize that the fetchlands are a key part of the deck, but I think you could use this space to elaborate on their role in legacy and why they're useful in Infect in particular (fueling Delve, resetting top of library is more important since we've increased the cantrip count.)

Crop Rotation + package
Sideboard Options section under 'Must haves'
This one's a little more debatable, but I feel very strongly that the second Crop Rotation + Karakas + Bojuka Bog isn't a core part of the sideboard. Not to say that there aren't metas where this is the best possible use of those 3 slots in the sideboard, I just think that there are quite a few worlds in which it would be correct to not play these cards.

Dragon Stompy
Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide
Does this one really feel unfavorable? I'm willing to be wrong on this, but given that we can somewhat shrug off Chalice X=1 and that we have a basic Forest in the main deck, I feel as though it's not too tough to set up a kill through a combination of opposing lock pieces and slow win conditions.

I went 5-0-2 into t8 on the Dutch Open last weekend with this list:

4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
1 Viridian Corrupter

4 Invigorate
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Berserk
1 Become Immense

1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
1 Piracy Charm

2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
7 Fetch
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven
1 Wasteland
1 Forest

SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Rest in Peace
1 Shaper's Sanctuary
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response

List was fine although I didn't really need Teferi's Response (but I already thought that), I got kicked out of the QF against BUG Control (who Sam beated). I had twice a mull to 6 with not that great of hand against 4 Strixes alone in game 2. So yeah, that didn't go as planned. I'm going to write a tournament report but I'll upload that to PhyrexianAcademy.com. I started a website dedicated to Infect a while ago, it's still a work in progress but I enjoy tinkering with it. Now I'm more focused on the Modern parts but I'm a Legacy infect player by heart.

First off, thank you to Fenrus for the thorough Gdoc and Jesure for the great tournament write-up - excellent excellent content. I'm with Fenrus that Mono-R feels awful. In theory, it seems like we have all the tools (speed, artifact removal, chalice resilience, etc.), but in my playtesting it's very hard to win 2 out of 3, esp. if they win the die roll. I find it hard to make mulligan decisions since so many of our hands are dead to t1 Moon or Sphere.

Glad to see Piracy Charm getting some love again - I love that card in straight U/G, it's won me games with all 4 modes.

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Originally Posted by Fenruscloud

Hi guys,

I've finally written an article about Infect. I've been thinking about writing this for quite some time now, since all of the articles out there are pretty outdated. It became quite a bit more than a simple matchup analysis and sideboarding guide. I actually quite enjoyed writing it so I just went all the way and wrote an entire player's guide. Please let me know what you think! Any feedback is much appreciated and I hope this article can help some of you. I'll try to keep it updated.

Feel free to share the link!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Cheers!
Sam

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Hi everyone,

Quite recently, Fenruscloud wrote an article about infect in which he also mentions the inclusion of Great Sable Stag. I happen to know that he won the most recent Dutch Open Series with infect. Moreover, he included the mighty elk and I hope he'll do a write up soon. I'd like to read what worked well for you and how your sideboard affected your matches. You'll probably know who I am, Fenrus. I recently congratulated you on your win and I won the Dutch open series back in February with the same deck ;).

Thanks for all the great responses guys, it really makes all the hard work I put in the article worthwhile and I'm glad I can help you!

As said above, I won a pretty big tournament this past sunday (the Dutch Open Series with over 100 people) and I'm still enjoying the victory! I'm writing a tournament report about it, but I tend to always make my articles pretty long and as detailed as I can remember, so it's not quite finished yet. I'll post it here as soon as it's finished. I'll try to discuss my play choices as best as I can.

Fun fact: they told me to take 1 card from the deck for the victory photograph. I took Great Sable Stag off course, he's the real MVP.

I probably know you Yumai, but I definitely don't know you by your nickname on the Source :wink:

Cheers!
Sam aka Fenruscloud

Hello, I had a question for Fenrus, i read your report, and i like the idea of Seeds of Innocence, BUT, why is it better than Krosan Grip? i feel like i never want to not play Krosan Grip because of cards like Back to Basics.

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Originally Posted by Dowws

Hello, I had a question for Fenrus, i read your report, and i like the idea of Seeds of Innocence, BUT, why is it better than Krosan Grip? i feel like i never want to not play Krosan Grip because of cards like Back to Basics.

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It's not better, it serves a different purpose. Seeds of innocence takes the place of Viridian Corrupter in my list. Instead of playing krosan grip, I play naturalize, but most people play nature's claim. This choice is all about personal preference though.

Just won another tournament today! I'll write one for this tournament as well but I haven't finished my last tournament report yet, so I'll try to post 'em both as soon as possible.

This deck is really good right now if you ask me!

Warning! Wall of text incoming!

Hi guys! So after a year of not playing too much legacy, I’ve picked up my deck again and won the Dutch Open Series (85 players). They still haven’t published the results on mtgtop8, though the results can also be found here: https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/ As soon as they publish the results on mtgtop8, I’ll add the link here as well. I've also made a google doc of this report, in case you're interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...bSAt18PQI/edit

Overall, Infect is pretty amazing right now if you ask me. Ever since the bans of DRS and probe we got so much better, so I’m happy I can start playing again! Alright, here we go:

Round 1: 2-0 vs Merfolk
G1: I lose the die roll. Prepare to read this a lot, it happened pretty much every single round. My opponent mulls to 4 though, while I keep my 7, so I can’t complain. We both ponder on our first turns. He passes his second turn and I play agent. I didn’t expect him to have dismember but let my agent die since I have another one. He has nothing left and I race him.
G2: My opponent plays vial, which I force. I play elf and he plays a cursecatcher. I attack and he blocks. They both die and I play inkmoth + agent. My opponent is stuck on 2 mana and plays another cursecatcher. He was clearly counting on that vial! I attack and invigorate agent. He spell pierces it, but I simple pay. Next turns I just attack with both inkmoth and agent and kill him slowly.

Round 2: 2-0 vs Grixis Delver
G1: Lose the die roll. My opponent mulls to 5 though, seems like I’m in luck so far. The first few turns he cantrips a lot, while I flood the board with 1/1 infectors. He can kill almost all of them, but with his last bolt I play a kicked vines to win the game.
G2: I keep a hand with 3 dazes, an elf, a noble and 2 lands. Pretty good vs delver. He plays volcanic and passes so I play my noble. He bolts it and I let it die since I drew one for the turn. He does nothing so I suspect he is either holding a hand full of removal or he has a 3 drop like Lili or TNN. I play a land and another noble and pass the turn. I want to be able to counter whatever he plays so decide not to play elf as well. He taps 3 mana and plays Lili, as expected. I daze, he dazes back, I pay for the daze, he dazes again, I daze back and win the counter war with 1 daze left. On my turn I play elf and pass. He plays TNN and I daze. I brainstorm into pump spells and win.

Round 3: 1-2 vs Miracles
I get paired vs a friend of mine and also one of the best magic players I know. Damn, I know this one is going to be tough and it ends up being probably the best round of magic I’ve played in 2018. In fact, I was so into the game that I forgot to take any notes whatsoever, but here’s what I remember:
G1: I lose the die roll and keep a decent hand, but I only have a single daze as counter magic. I get an early elf on board with a noble so when he end step tried to brainstorm, I daze it to prevent him from positioning terminus. Unfortunately, he plays a back to basics on the way back. I lack the mana to combo kill on my turn and afterwards he takes control.
G2: I think for quite some time about the following opening hand: 2 elf, blighted, fow, ponder, invigorate, forest. This hand is everything I need, but it lacks blue mana. I keep it however, I prefer the odds of me drawing a land than mulling to 6. I have fow if anything goes wrong as well. I slam elf turn one and he ponders. I attack and invigorate. He takes 5 infect and I play a second elf. I need to finish this as quickly as possible. He portents and passes turn. In my upkeep he plays terminus and I force it. It resolves so I bring him to 7 infect. I go all in and play agent with the tropical I just found. He cantrips 3 times to find terminus but blanks.
G3: This was by far the most intensive match. We play draw go a few turns where I have an inkmoth as my creatures. I’m clearly building towards an all-in turn and he’s building up towards stopping me. By the way he plays and fetches I know he has back to basics, so I’m only getting 1 shot at this. I try to get a few swords out of his hand by playing 2 elves in 2 turns. He gets rid of ‘em both and then has a clique to see my hand. I get to keep, so now I’m really scared. The game gets decided when I have nissa + spell pierce in hand and he has 2 cards in hand with 4 mana. I’m not getting a better shot at this so I play nissa. Unfortunately he has another clique to get rid of my pierce, drawing me a land, and him piercing my nissa. His back to basics follow-up end the game.

Round 4: 2-1 vs Stoneblade
G1: I win the die roll! Hurray! I get an early elf on the board and have 2 invigorate, become immense, spell pierce and daze. Pretty good. I totally ruin this game though. The only thing my opponent does is play ponders all the time. Normally, the best thing to do is swords my elf in his turn or at the end of my turn, but that never happened. I thought maybe he was on some weird combo deck because I had only seen a single karakas and a volcanic island. I was thinking maybe sneak and show with a weird splash. So I attacked with elf and double invigorate, my opponent still does nothing, and I become immense. He plowed, and I lose right there. I still think my opponent made a mistake of nothing using swords in his turn or on my end step, but then again I simple got greedy playing become immense. I should have simply put him at 9 infect.
G2: I play noble, he ponders. I play elf and he plows. I surgical his plow at the end step. I play elf and saw he has no removal left in his deck. I attack and pump for lethal. He counters one of ‘em, which I counter back.
G3: This was a pretty long match and we end up going in time. We play a very reactive game where I play sylvan library and he counters it. He gets jitte, which I destoy. The game gets really tough when I have an elf in play and he has snap + stoneforge and then he resolves blood moon. I have a forest in play and have berserk, I just need a pump spell. I draw noble which gets me blue, but nothing to do with it. We play ‘draw, go’ a couple of turns and in turn 2 of extra time, I finally draw invigorate. He already used 3 swords so I simple have to go for it. He doesn’t have plow and I win.

Round 5: 2-1 vs dredge
G1: I lose the die roll. I don’t know what I’m playing against and have no fow. He has the nuts and wins turn 1.
G2: I play elf. He plays faithless looting, which I force. I attack and invigorate + berserk.
G3: I had the perfect hand (I thought): elf, invigorate, berserk, fow, ponder, tropical, crop rotation. He plays careful study, which I force. I play elf and pass. He plays a land and passes. I attack + invigorate and he plays firestorm. Damn, that feels bad. Luckily for me, he has no dredger yet. In his turn, he misses with cabal therapy and passes. I fetch dryad arbor. I attack a couple off turns while he fills his graveyard. I let him go ahead until he finds a few dredgers and plays breakthrough. I crop rotate and remove his grave with bog. He gets 1 dredger in the grave, which I surgical. I find agent and kill him slowly with it.

Round 6: 2-0 vs miracles
G1: I win another die roll. I know I’m playing vs miracles and I see a hand with tropical, nexus, noble and library. About everything I need in the matchup if I can get the library to resolve. I play noble and pass. He ponders. I play inkmoth + library, he fows, I spell pierce back. I win the game there.
G2: I see a hand filled with creatures, but not much else. Vs miracles though, that’s not bad. We play I a couple off turns where I play 1 or 2 creatures each turn, with him either countering them or removing them. We get in a game state where I have 4 cards left in hand and he has 2. I play noble + elf. He spends his entire turn cantripping but ends up doing nothing. I attack and double invigorate.

Round 7: ID for top 8, ending in 6th place!

QF: 2-1 vs DnT
G1: He starts with mother, I play elf. He plays thalia, I play pendelhaven. I have lethal in hand with invigorate + berserk, but I can’t pay for it and if he blocks, I won’t deal 10 damage so I need inkmoth or blighted. I draw inkmoth, but he has a wasteland. When I find crop rotation I play inkmoth, which he wastes. I crop rotate and get another inkmoth, for which he has another wasteland in his turn. When I finally find inkmoth nr.3, he plays prelate and puts it on 1. I lose the game right there.
G2: The game gets decided when he plays a jitte but can’t equip the same turn. I had the combo kill in hand for quite some time, but no protection for it. After he plays jitte, I simply have to go for it though or I simple lose. He doesn’t have swords so dies.
G3: he starts with vial and I have pithing needle in hand, though I start off with a ponder. I want to see if he plays stoneforge on turn 2 because then I need the needle for jitte. Luckily for me he plays a wasteland and another vial. I wasteland his wasteland (I have inkmoth in hand) and I put needle on vial. He has no response putting me so far ahead all of a sudden. I have double invigorate, but no protection so I don’t attack for a few turns. I’m under no pressure so I don’t want to lose to swords. We ‘draw-go’ and he resolves a thalia at a certain point. I’ve gathered tons of mana in the meanwhile, so this is actually an advantage for me at this point, since I know he can only pay for 1 swords. When I find vines, I go for it. He indeed has swords and I vines.

SF: 2-0 vs BUG control
This deck is an adaptation of grixis control, playing green instead of red, mainly for leovold and assassin’s trophy. This deck is played quite a bit online, so I’d seen it before, but I’m sure it caught many players by surprise.
G1: I start with noble, he ponders. I play ponder and play the inkmoth I drew from it. He ponders again and passes. At this point, I have an invigorate in hand and I know I’m drawing another one next turn from ponder. I have a library in hand I don’t really need, so I want to try and get him to fight over library and let him use all of his counters. I play a land and play the library, he forces. I spell pierce his force and library resolves so excellent exchange for me. He has a good follow up with Leovold to nullify my library, but he tapped out for it and I know I don’t need it so that’s fine. I double invigorate inkmoth in my turn and win.
G2: I mull to 6 and keep a hand with 2 agents, a ponder, a noble and 2 lands. He starts with thoughtseize to take away an agent. I play noble and pass. He plays strix, I play agent and ponder, finding me fow, invigorate and vines. I really need this agent to survive and I’m good so I pick fow. He tries to fatal push agent and my fow resolves. This means he has no counters in hand so I’m going all out. I draw vines and attack for 2 poison. He draws and passes, likely indicating he doesn’t have much going on or he would try to cantrip for more removal. I attack and invigorate. He tries to kill agent and I kick vines in response, winning me the game.

Finals: 2-0 vs storm
G1: my opponent may start and I keep a hand of 2x ponder, fow, daze, blighted agent, tropical island, invigorate. This hand is pretty good, the only thing it lacks is a second land, which I can find with ponder. My opponent ponders and passes. I ponder and see: berserk, forest and inkmoth nexus. This is everything I need really, but I have to plan this correctly. I need to win as fast as I can so I need blighted agent to resolve next turn. This means I won’t be playing daze next turn unless I absolutely have to. Picking up the tropical would slow me down a turn, which is not an option. I pick the nexus and put berserk third. I don’t want to draw it next turn since I can’t win next turn anyway and I can only lose it to a discard spell. My opponent starts his turn with ponder, followed by a thoughtseize. I can’t let him see my hand or he knows he wins if he picks fow. I fow the spell, pitching ponder, not using daze so I can cast agent next turn. My opponent plays petal and passes. I draw berserk and play agent. My opponent starts with dark ritual, which I daze. This end up winning me the game as my opponent manages to play ad nauseum, but has no mana left and no hand. He draws until he’s at 4 life, but didn’t find another petal he needs to win this turn. If would have gotten another turn I’d be dead, but I kill him first.
G2: I keep a hand with 2 fow, 2 ponder, surgical, nexus, tropical. Pretty great vs storm. My opponent ponders and passes. I draw another ponder and use it. I see a bunch of pump spells, which is not what I need, so I shuffle and draw a land. My opponent cantrips twice, plays petal and passes. I play nexus and pass turn. My opponent starts with ritual, which I let resolve. He plays another, resolving as well. He plays cabal ritual, which I counter. He then plays past in flames, which I counter as well. He has no mana left and 2 cards in hand, and passes the turn. I surgical past in flames in the end step and see he has led and tutor in hand. I look through his library and see he doesn’t have any good answers so I’m feeling pretty confident. I attack and double invigorate nexus, pass turn. My opponent finds a way to stall the game: he plays led and gets xanthid swarm with tutor. I attack and he blocks. He draws ponder for the turn and my heart skips a beat. He draws another ponder and with the ponder he finds ad nauseum, but he lacks exactly 1 mana to cast it.

After going 8-1, I win the tournament and feel extremely happy!

Cheers guys!
Sam aka Fenruscloud

@Fenruscloud, thanks so much for the Google doc and your write-up. This has been very informative for me, someone who is beginning to pick up Infect in both Legacy and Modern.

I wanted to ask about the viability of some cards that you did not mention in your list.

Spell Snare -- Outside of Sneak 'n' Show, the format feels chock full of 2-drops, many of them scary: Baleful Strix; Chalice of the Void; Stoneforge Mystic/Umezawa's Jitte; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; Hymn to Tourach; Snapcaster Mage; Assassin's Trophy; Bitterblossom; Punishing Fire, etc. This answers those cards on the stack for positive tempo and is at least blue.
Piracy Charm -- In a similar vein as Snare, this can kill Strix or Thalia, pump our guy, and perhaps make a control player discard that last removal spell before animating Inkmoth Nexus (though this seems less likely). Snare seems more powerful, though Charm appears more versatile. Also, it's blue and an easy side-out in lots of matchups.
Island (over the fourth Tropical Island) -- Back to Basics is a card that is beatable but annoying, and I'd prefer to play the Miracles matchup without having to bring in something like Krosan Grip. This makes some cards worse, of course: Vines of Vastwood, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Great Sable Stag (which I have yet to try but intend to). I have about 15 test matches with Island, and it hasn't bothered me so far, though this is obviously a small sample size. The fetch distribution would be up for debate, too. I've been trying 4 Misty Rainforest, 3 green fetches, and 1 blue fetch.
Preordain (over Ponder) -- In a recent stream, Nick Miller said that he prefers Preordain because your second land is often Inkmoth Nexus, meaning that you are less likely to play an early fetch to shuffle bad cards away after a turn 1 cantrip. Thoughts?

Thanks for your help. I'll be playing this at FNM tonight and testing it extensively over the weekend.

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Originally Posted by theMonster

@Fenruscloud, thanks so much for the Google doc and your write-up. This has been very informative for me, someone who is beginning to pick up Infect in both Legacy and Modern.

I wanted to ask about the viability of some cards that you did not mention in your list.

Spell Snare -- Outside of Sneak 'n' Show, the format feels chock full of 2-drops, many of them scary: Baleful Strix; Chalice of the Void; Stoneforge Mystic/Umezawa's Jitte; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; Hymn to Tourach; Snapcaster Mage; Assassin's Trophy; Bitterblossom; Punishing Fire, etc. This answers those cards on the stack for positive tempo and is at least blue.
Piracy Charm -- In a similar vein as Snare, this can kill Strix or Thalia, pump our guy, and perhaps make a control player discard that last removal spell before animating Inkmoth Nexus (though this seems less likely). Snare seems more powerful, though Charm appears more versatile. Also, it's blue and an easy side-out in lots of matchups.
Island (over the fourth Tropical Island) -- Back to Basics is a card that is beatable but annoying, and I'd prefer to play the Miracles matchup without having to bring in something like Krosan Grip. This makes some cards worse, of course: Vines of Vastwood, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Great Sable Stag (which I have yet to try but intend to). I have about 15 test matches with Island, and it hasn't bothered me so far, though this is obviously a small sample size. The fetch distribution would be up for debate, too. I've been trying 4 Misty Rainforest, 3 green fetches, and 1 blue fetch.
Preordain (over Ponder) -- In a recent stream, Nick Miller said that he prefers Preordain because your second land is often Inkmoth Nexus, meaning that you are less likely to play an early fetch to shuffle bad cards away after a turn 1 cantrip. Thoughts?

Thanks for your help. I'll be playing this at FNM tonight and testing it extensively over the weekend.

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Hello theMonster,

First of all, you're welcome! I'm happy you've found the guide to be helpful!
Here are my thoughts about the cards you mentioned:

Spell snare: I can see why you want to play this card, but I feel like every card you mentioned can be solved with other sideboard cards. Every artifact can be removed with our artifact destruction, and I'd personally rather play another Spell Pierce above a Spell Snare. Spell Pierce can hit other stuff too like Liliana, the Last hope or Aether vial, which Spell Snare cannot hit. On top of this, our artifact removal is good even after the spell has resolved, where Spell Snare is useless once a Jitte resolves, for instance. In my opinion, Spell Snare is much more narrow than other options.
Piracy Charm: Charm is a good card, but I never really felt like I needed it. I feel like all options are kind of 'okay', but nothing more. Islandwalk? Don't need it, you have Nexus + Agent, so I'd rather have another ponder to look for them. +2/-1? If I want another pump spell I'll just play a second Become Immense, and yeah sure sometimes you'll be able to kill a creature with the -1 effect but again, I'd rather have another ponder which can find my a Berserk or Agent. This way, I don't care about their creatures. Discard? If my opponent is tapped out and has a single card in hand this is great, but how many times does this really happen? More often than not, you'll cast this and your opponent has an instant in hand to cast anyway. I'd rather ponder to find whatever I need at the moment. So in conclusion I think Piracy Charm is fine, but Ponder is better.
Island: Having a basic island is nice and I've tried this myself, but I always ended up missing the 4th tropical more than the upside of having a basic Island brought me. Infect is pretty mana effecient and taking away a forest is quite relevant.
Preordain: I disagree strongly on this one. Ponder is better at any stage of the game because you get to see all 3 cards and you can shuffle them away if you want to. You can also decide to just draw 1 or 2 and then shuffle. Preordain only shows you 2 cards and you don't know what's coming if you put both on the bottom. Ponder allows you to plan your game plan much better than Preordain in my opinion.

Cheers and good luck!

I was going to ask about Preordain, because I felt like this was a really bold statement for him to make but I thought it may have some merit. I mean, at least his reason makes sense. But I can't see myself cutting all copies of Ponder for Preordain. I like Preordain as a supplement to Ponder, like in Miracles, but I just don't think it's good enough to cut all copies of Ponder for it.

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Originally Posted by Fenruscloud

Hello theMonster,

First of all, you're welcome! I'm happy you've found the guide to be helpful!
Here are my thoughts about the cards you mentioned:

Spell snare: I can see why you want to play this card, but I feel like every card you mentioned can be solved with other sideboard cards. Every artifact can be removed with our artifact destruction, and I'd personally rather play another Spell Pierce above a Spell Snare. Spell Pierce can hit other stuff too like Liliana, the Last hope or Aether vial, which Spell Snare cannot hit. On top of this, our artifact removal is good even after the spell has resolved, where Spell Snare is useless once a Jitte resolves, for instance. In my opinion, Spell Snare is much more narrow than other options.
Piracy Charm: Charm is a good card, but I never really felt like I needed it. I feel like all options are kind of 'okay', but nothing more. Islandwalk? Don't need it, you have Nexus + Agent, so I'd rather have another ponder to look for them. +2/-1? If I want another pump spell I'll just play a second Become Immense, and yeah sure sometimes you'll be able to kill a creature with the -1 effect but again, I'd rather have another ponder which can find my a Berserk or Agent. This way, I don't care about their creatures. Discard? If my opponent is tapped out and has a single card in hand this is great, but how many times does this really happen? More often than not, you'll cast this and your opponent has an instant in hand to cast anyway. I'd rather ponder to find whatever I need at the moment. So in conclusion I think Piracy Charm is fine, but Ponder is better.
Island: Having a basic island is nice and I've tried this myself, but I always ended up missing the 4th tropical more than the upside of having a basic Island brought me. Infect is pretty mana effecient and taking away a forest is quite relevant.
Preordain: I disagree strongly on this one. Ponder is better at any stage of the game because you get to see all 3 cards and you can shuffle them away if you want to. You can also decide to just draw 1 or 2 and then shuffle. Preordain only shows you 2 cards and you don't know what's coming if you put both on the bottom. Ponder allows you to plan your game plan much better than Preordain in my opinion.

Cheers and good luck!

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Thanks for the reply, Fenruscloud. Hope to have lots of robust discussion here!

The way I'm thinking about Spell Snare is as a game 1 card that is good-not-great against a lot of the field. I've been testing the Dissenter's Deliverance maindeck because it can at least cycle (and fuel Become Immense) -- hasn't been horrible. This plus Snare makes it so that you're not dead to some of the 2-drop bogeymen like Strix, Jitte, Chalice, etc. Having splash damage against namely Snapcaster in the grindy games feels good, too. Of course there are better, more focused sideboard cards, but for a flex spot in game 1, having a versatile, tempo-positive answer to lots of problem cards doesn't seem half bad. I've liked it so far, but it's certainly higher variance than some people like.

Also, it doesn't seem like I ever want to bring in Dismember. I notice you don't have it in your 75 right now, and I'm inclined to agree. Which matchups is it for? Against Delver, if it gets countered, you're in rough shape, so I'm assuming it's for, like, Eldrazi(?). Even there, the life loss hurts. All the creatures I want to kill on sight (Strix and Thalia) are 1-toughness, so maybe, if I wanted to play removal (which I'm not convinced I do right now), Piracy Charm is better; at least it's blue, and some post-board configurations are lighter on blue cards.

For a laugh, I tested a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, which, on its face, seems counterintuitive in the pump spell deck. But hear me out: lots of the games I'm playing involve attacking with an exalted dude and casting no spells, so I thought that Kira makes it so that the opponent has to expend more resources to kill something and make an even bigger first move. Maybe it's crazy thinking, I dunno. Three mana is a lot, too, and you can Blast it on the stack. Not enough reps with it yet to be sure about it -- only saw it once so far, and it did a fair bit of work; traded it and a Daze for a Force, blue card, and two removal spells because my opponent was going to die to his own Bitterblossom if he didn't get it off the table.

Also, Preordain is way worse than Ponder -- confirmed.

how many artifact removal cards do we need in the 75? more importantly, how many cards do we need that fight Umezawa's Jitte? currently in my 75 I have 4. Is there any rule of thumb that says "you need this many cards that stop Jitte"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drocker23

how many artifact removal cards do we need in the 75? more importantly, how many cards do we need that fight Umezawa's Jitte? currently in my 75 I have 4. Is there any rule of thumb that says "you need this many cards that stop Jitte"?

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I think between 3-4 is the commonly accepted number, and it's probably meta dependent. I'm trying a Spell Snare maindeck, so I'm calling it 3.5 for me. Right now, it seems that DnT is getting beaten back a bit by Grixis Control, and the fast combo decks are starting to come out again, so I'm only playing three dedicated Jitte/Chalice answers. Perhaps more experienced pilots have a more scientific reason for their number, though.

I think there's a lot more tapping out for very powerful effects on curve right now that Pierce is a better include over Snare. It feels great to snag a late game Strix, but Pierce is live so often right now against K Command, both Lilianas, and still usually hits most of the two drops that really get us. But if you're running 2 pierce and still have a flex spot, it's close with Ponder.

Charm gets better depending on your meta. If there's a lot of D&T the -1 mode maindeck gets way more appealing. And while we do have Agent and Strix, in a grindy matchup like Grixis where they should be killing those evasive threats on sight, being able to assemble a hand that let's Elf waltz past Angler is pretty relevant.

Has anyone tried running Dissenter's Deliverance in the main? What were your thoughts on it? Is this the utility card we want in the maindeck? It seems better than Piracy Charm and much better than Stifle. I don't know if it's worth it over a 4th Ponder or not. How do people feel about maindeck Dissenter's Deliverance?