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Before reading your comments i didn't like stack so much...i wondered the purpose of the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
Trini + stack sounds good. The problem to me is that if you cast too fast stack probably you'll kill your own permanents plus your opponent's. I don't get if it's really good or it's really dependent on your opening hand and topdecks. I think that to make your "time walk" combo you must run a set of both trini and smoke...right??
It does depend on your opening hand. 3sphere is the best thing to pair with an early Stack, but you can substitute Chalice and/or Prison in a lot of situations. Just Smokestack (and other 4CC spells) isn't optimal. You also need three mana or more when you first enter the upkeep with a counter in place (most of your deck is three mana or less).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
It does not depend much on topdecks except that sometimes lady luck will just screw you over as always happens.
The only thing really needed to suffer less from Smokes than an opponent is to maintain three mana - and topdeck 3CC permanents and lands (of my current build, only 12 spells are 4CC, and 4 of those are sorceries - barely any other deck even plays that many permanents). And try for more so you can use those to sacrifice (by playing a land as well as a sacrificial permanent for the next upkeep).
You will be sacrificing a lot of stuff, possibly more than your opponent will, but it will hurt your opponent more because they need lands more than you need lock pieces - and their creatures tend to be better in multiples than some of your lock pieces would be, especially since Smokestack itself makes multiple Ghostly Prisons redundant. Once your opponent is below three mana, 3sphere/Stack obsoletes Chalice and other 3spheres.
Also, you have Crucible and Flagstones for additional sacrifices. Even Loam can't begin to keep up with Crucible.
To be sure, this plan can and on occasion will backfire.
Sometimes you'll be at three mana and proceed to draw nothing but 4CC spells and sometimes your opponent will be able to out-permanent you in the short run via ETW, Lackey/Siege-Gang, Bridge tokens, or a bunch of Enchantress's enchantments.
It's important to know when it's risky to play Smokestack, when it's better to try for an additional mana and/or lock piece first, and when to go for it.
I did say Smokes alone isn't optimal (w/o 3sphere/Chalice/Prison/Chalice). Assuming your first one or two lock pieces got countered or otherwise dealt with (or you mulled down to Smoke/double Tomb :D ), Smokestack can still do a lot of good. You then don't have the luxury of 3sphere or other supporting permanent so it's not as good, and it's slow, as you said. But it's still a threat and the sooner it's on the board the better. Also, your opponent is already down some disruption.
Besides, not being optimal on its own is what you can say about all other lock pieces. Too much disruption can easily out-tempo Stax long enough to get in with sufficiently lethal beats .
I would never cut Smokestack out of the deck: it's a great card, but I did not like running 4 because unlike Chalice / Trinisphere, Smokestack hurts you just as much as your opponent, I found going down to 3 was just fine.
Yea, I would never cut Smokestack either, but that's part of why I don't want 4. It is harder to break the symmetry of Smokestack than Trinisphere, for example Trini can never hurt you, neither can Chalice, but Smokestack you have to prepare for.
And while Stax does run a ton of permanents, its actually not always that obvious. For one, Stax plays fewer lands out on the field than most decks because it will either hold lands or pitch them. For another, a lot of times the permanents you put out are quite valuable and you don't want to sac them any more than your opponent wants to sac his.
The ONLY times Smokestack is NOT good are when 1) you need an immediate answer and 2) when your opponent has significantly more permanents than you do. Otherwise, it's a bomb, and multiples are good, so I think running 4 is reasonable. If you have 4 mana you can play any spell in most builds of the deck, and because you run almost all permanents (plus synergistic cards like Flagstones and Crucible), Smokestack is almost always one-sided, and it's also one of the best ways to force a G1 concession.
But after that you side it out??Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
No, but it is less likely for opponents to concede in games 2 and 3.
I rarely sideout Smokestack unless I'm up against something like Belcher. If I'm up against Goblins or Merfolk, sometimes I'll side out just one because it's something you don't want to see very often until you set up some sort of soft lock.
I was actually thinking of testing with 4 Smokestack again now that we have Elspeth, has anybody tried that out yet?
Even running Elspeths main I like 3 stax.
Smokestack is a gamebreaker. Apparently it's a lost art, but if you're a bit good at math, you can ramp it up hard to clear the board if you need to. Maintaining Smokestack@2 is pretty awesome too. That's usually a win. Smokestack isn't as good against swarms though. Merfolk, Goblins, they have plenty of stuff to sac and keep on coming.
Yeah being able to maintain smokestack @2 = GG's if you have the proper pieces out i.e. chalice @1 or a 3sphere. Most decks don't run as many permanents as ourselves so it's easy to set up a lock via crucible, flagstones, or just using armageddon to blow your opponent out of the game since they'll probably have something like 2 permanents out post geddon.
I run 3 smokestack currently but would like a 4th; they are a bitch to find though luckily I got the 3 I have and some other stax pieces for a foil entomb I got for $10. But elspeth supports smokestack quite well and it's really good when you have elspeth and crucible out with a smokestack out cause that is generally GG's.
You side out smokestack when you face something with a lot of permanents like gobbo's or elves. It just matchup dependent.
Just out of interest, what other decks can out-permanent us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I'm thinking of Elves, Enchantress, Goblins ... the mirror, obviously. 43land.
Although Smokestack is far from bad even here if you can get additional hate up. (I got raped a few times by Boggart Shenanigans though, not to mention that rogue pre-Entomb Hulk deck.)
Makes me want to add World Queller even more, as you can specifically target lands. Anybody do some testing with that guy? Haven't had much time recently.
I got mine no problem; small city with next to no Legacy players, the shopkeeper was happy to sell them pretty cheaply (4€ a pop iirc) ;)Quote:
I run 3 smokestack currently but would like a 4th; they are a bitch to find though luckily I got the 3 I have and some other stax pieces for a foil entomb I got for $10.
Haven't gotten to test him, but I honestly don't think he's that great. Sure, he's a recurring Armageddon, but he's not an ideal creature-sweeper because he kills himself in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman Peopled
That, and there's a much sexier creature in the 3WW slot named Baneslayer Angel...
Smokestack is such a vital component for an early win in many matchups. I ran 4 Smokestacks at the last Meandeck open and was incredably happy with them every time I drew it.
Against Goblins, despite their high permanent count, they are usually unable to race you in permanents due to various lock pieces which prevent them from matching you in permanent drops per turn; even if they have an equal number of permanents per deck. At said tourney, my opponent had significant board advantage and after many turns of grinding away at him with Smokestack@2/Trokair+Crucible I was able to eventually able to bring him down to zero permanents on board.
The moral of the story: If you aren't seeing instant gratification with smokestack against permanent heavy decks it does not mean they are winning, you just have to be patient.
I agree with this unless Goblins / Merfolk goes turn 1 AEther VialQuote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
Vial IMO is one of Stax's most troublesome cards
On that subject, this is why things like Damping Matrix, Suppression Field and other toys are useful.Quote:
Vial IMO is one of Stax's most troublesome cards
Even then however, I find it very easy to just eat the Vial along with whatever else from the Smokestack. In my own experience, although Vial can be an issue; it only ever helps slightly and takes too long to ramp before I've taken a firm grip on the game.
Vial is still incredibly troublesome because it directly circumvents Chalice and Trinisphere and Armageddon.
In my opinion though the single most annoying card for Stax is Trygon Predator.
Could you post your list please?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
My list is like one land choice and one artifact different from the SCG White Stax list. I don't claim to be incredibly original with my list, nor do I want to bog down this thread with yet another deck list.
As far as Vial goes, I have found that I really am not worried about either Merfolk nor Goblins as I generally am not losing a lot of games to either deck. If it is suppose to be a bad matchup please enlighten me because 4x Ghostly Prison / 3x Magus of the Tabernacle really seals the deal. Post board Rule of Law makes the more aggressive of the two decks even easier.
Why would you board in Rule of Law vs Goblins?
Merfolk can be hard sometimes if you don't draw enough of the correct lock pieces and they counter those. You could have the mana all locked up but fail to land enough creature control to stop from being overrun.