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That's more or less the idea, it can also punch through blockers at planeswalkers. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by soiber2000
Point being when you want the clock to be upwards of a turn or two faster, he's a better grab than Thragtusk (that's where I'm coming from).
Fierce Empath :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by soiber2000
Saw the following list on TC Decks. Very interesting with the 4 Abrupt Decays. Also no tusk!!!!!!! I like this idea but would go -1 Intent and -1 Ooze for +2 Tusk.....also go to more of a wish board. Speaking of a wish board, any thoughts on life from the loam instead of Tsunami/Sowing Salt slot to recur from wasteland assault?
Deck Name: Scapeshift Position: 5
Nic Fit Dario Moreno
Creatures [12]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
Instants [4]
4 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries [15]
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Enchantments [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands [24]
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Bayou
4 Badlands
4 Forest
4 Taiga
Sideboard
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
I'm putting together a Scapewish list now, and I thought about loam instead of virtue's ruin, since there's hardly any maverick at my LGS, but I also want Shattering Spree because there's a couple MUD players that show up from time to time. Loam is probably my favorite magic card after Pernicious Deed, and I have definitely had games where I wish I had access to it when playing GB or GBr. I often feel like I can't even play my Strongholds because a lot of the time my opponent is holding wasteland waiting for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
The other difference is cutting a huntmaster. This cut is hard for me because a couple reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
1.) It's my favorite magic creature ever.
2.) It's freaking good (gains life and becomes beatdown)
3.) It's green/red name another good green/red legacy card besides metamorphosis and firespout.
Then having 4 decays seems tempting.......
I wouldn't cut a Huntmaster at the moment under any circumstances. They don't only compose your beatdown plan in fair matchups, but are also your go-to threat vs combo players, since he applies pressure on multiple axes.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
Loam....eh. If you're really worried about it, it could be fine -- or you could opt for the Collective Voyage and ramp yourself with that mana instead. You shouldn't be exposing your Valakuts in general if you have any alternative, and otherwise the deck is actually pretty wasteland resistant. You also have Witness to get back a Wasted land, assuming no deathrite shenanigans.
Does anyone play the Rector version anymore? All I seem to see lately is Scapewish.
I run the rector version. And I will be at scg Edison. The rector version is slightly harder to do well with in this meta. And has been under revision to become better because of decks like junk and bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
The current list and board is as follows if you have questions feel free to ask Kevin or I.
CREATURES:
4 veteran explorers
2 Sakura tribe elder
1 starved rusalka
1 fierce empath
2 eternal witness
1 sigarda
1 thragtusk
1 yosei
3 academy rector
1 sun Titan
2 baneslayer angel
SPELLS:
3 green suns Zenith
4 cabal therapy
1 maelstrom pulse
1 vindicate
ENCHANTMENT:
1 faiths fetters
4 pernicious deed
1 moat
1 recurring nightmare
1 recycle
OTHER SPELLS:
3 sensei tops
LANDS:
3 windswept Heath
3 verdant catacombs
3 forest
3 plains
2 swamp
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
2 phyrexian tower
SIDEBOARD:
3 carpet of flowers
3 extirpate
3 natural order
1 PROGENITUS
1 nether void
1 humility
1 memoricide
1 cranial
Extraction
1 angel of despair.
That's the list I am
Running at the moment if you have questions ask and I or Kevin can hp
You.
I just feel that this deck can do so much more. I have been playing it on MTGO everyday for about a week. It feels like too many cards are situational. Only issue is I don't know what to change because each have about an equal amount of use. Only card that is always useful is Academy Rector. Are there any I good enchantments that could be considered a win condition? Also would it possible to fit Thrun back in. Early turn Nethervoid followed up by a creature would help a lot vs storm.
What more do you want? I mean lets start with creatures veterans are obviously amazing and can ramp you into your big creatures. Sakura tribe elder is a tank! I mean he drops can block sac anything and gives you mana eot to do things faster than your opponent and with such a high threat density deck I think he is well suited. Rusalka is just amazing a green sunnable sac outlet??! Doesn't get much better when you want your creatures to die. E witness is just perfect that's enough said. Rector is obviously good considering you get whatever enchantment you want if they don't death rite or stifle. Baneslayer angel. I mean legacy isn't equipped to deal with that card very well it's a huge body a life linker and has first strike. And for 5. Sigarda is just good a huge body way to cast can't be targeted and makes your permanents liliana proof. Yosei ya he is a 6 drop but look what he does and you asked about enchantments that win nightmare with yosei if you get it online it's over. Not to mention the triggers stack. Thragtusk I mean same thing with nightmare you get enough mana eventually you keep cycling himQuote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
And gainin life making dudes and what will your opponent do? Sun Titan is just so good there have been so many times where I drop him
Get a deed back and start nuking. Or drop him
Grab e witness for memoricide or vindicate. The creature base is disgustingly
Good and if you have ever ran this list you would understand.
Now lets talk about enchantments. Lets start with moat. If you have ever played moat you would understand that the card is just purely unfair think about the decks in the
Meta mostly creatures that do not fly
And the ones that do can't stand up
To the ones we have. When moat drops people tend to lose.
Pernicious deed. You run 4 board wipes it hits everything on your side it wants to hit and everything on there side. Enough said.
Recurring nightmare gives you the option to cycle creatures like
Yosei and thragtusk and sun Titan which pretty much no one can handle.
Recycle is fairly new for me but you draw even when you play LANd that is card advantage like no other. Ya your max hand size is two but you can always put yosei in the bin or therapy and not care to much.
Faiths fetters I can't tell you how many times this card has saved me it slams on emrakul and is so good
Nether void has won me against storm twice at scg events beat it at providence to take 12th
All in all I don't think the deck can get much better.
He's not asking for a short primer. No one is questioning the power of Rector. It is probably the most well developed variant (or at least the most discussed over time here), but it has definitely taken a hit from Shaman and peoples interests have shifted a bit to developing the Scapeshift variant. What he does want is an enchantment that will absolutely house some people. I ran a query on Gatherer and came up w/ 620 W, B, or G non-aura enchantments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick777
Here's a couple that caught my eye. I haven't gone over the whole list yet though:
Baneful Omen - goes great w/ Top given our higher than normal CMC. Even more fun if you're on the Progenitus plan and especially nutty if you toss in a couple Worldly Tutors. But the tutor kinda sucks (it ain't no GSZ) and Omen is pretty costly to hardcast if you need to.
[cards]Bloodbond March[/card] - interesting effect, though not sure it's all that exploitable
[cards]Burgeoning[/card] - Seems like it should see some play
[cards]Cadaverous Bloom[/card] - only including because I used to love Prosperous Bloom :) (Would be awesome if this, Stasis, and Squandered Resources could be good again)
[cards]Call of the Wild[/card] - see my notes about Baneful Omen... (minus the prohibitive casting cost part)
[cards]Celestial Convergence[/card] - seems like you could do crazy things w/ Vampire Hexmage
[cards]Chains of Mephistopheles[/card] - see the Junk thread for discussion
In any event, my point is twofold: 1) the tools are out there to look for something backbreaking. 2) No deck is perfect, it's worth revisiting some assumptions sometimes. I kinda think there might be a deck for Omen & Call, especially if you can find a way to generate enough mana to actually cast it and/or the creatures that go well with it. Of course then you should probably just be playing Elves or 12 Post. Happy brewing!
Regarding rock paper scissors, I feel that may be the case already. Red is best against fair decks because it behaves like a combo-control deck. Blue is best against combo because it has Jace and Brainstorm to sculpt the anti combo nuts asap. Rector is tied between the two, but has the best chance against blue because Jace is their alt win con.
Unless the game goes really super late I would call Recycle the deck's Enchantment win condition.
I noticed most of my losses are to Esper Stoneblade builds, knowing that they are the DTB atm, could anyone list down a few ways which I should sb against them?
I am still playing Scapewish and I usually do this
-2 Explorer -1 Therapy -1 Blitz Hellion -1 Burning Wish
+2 Slaughter Games +3 REB
Strongly agree. I know I doubted you initially, but I'm definitely a Recycle convert. Still annoys me that I have a jap foil Arena with no home now though, lol. #1stworldmagicproblems, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
If you can't assemble Yosei/Nightmare within 2-3 turns after resolving Recycle, you're doing something wrong. At the moment, Yosei lock is the single most degenerate thing that Rector is capable of. That it's "combo kill," if you will. I'm not saying that it's anywhere near as strong or as synergistic as Scapewish's combo kill, but it DOES have one.
Note: there are several reasons why I haven't been playing Rector much lately. Until very recently, Steve still had to borrow a lot of stuff off of me to actually be able to play the deck. Additionally, Scapewish is just plain better in the central PA/upstate NY meta right now, and I've been in a mood to want to win tournaments lately. I'll probably be playing Rector again a fair bit next month, once I've had time to put it all back together the way I want it. I've also been doing some shhh shhh R&D on the blue version, which has, again, led to Rector getting left behind. It's surprisingly hard to juggle managing/updating/playing my two completed Nic Fit decks, while also working on finishing development on the third, while also building and playing other decks for fun / with an eye towards learning their weaknesses.
I wouldn't cut the Wish, just because Esperblade often turns into a grind-fest, and you want to have your full bevy of threats available. Taking out the Hellion is fine here, because Snapping Swords. Oftentimes, I board "out" a Green Sun in the matchup, because it gives you an added diversity level to your threatbase in the wishboard. Boarding out a Green Sun actually increases your number of Green Suns from 4 to 7, which is significant. Your other board outs (and your board ins) are fine, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Yeah, Recycle is pretty incredible. Still, I think CRich3 is asking for a game ender NOW. Recycle will surely get the job done, but we're still looking at a couple turns. (Awesome turns I might add.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Anyway, after going over the list of enchantments in Rector colors, I can safely say that much like WotCs opinion that creatures have been underpowered for much of Magics history, the same is also true of enchantments. But in case anyone is curious, these are the ones that caught my eye (besides the few I listed yesterday):
Wound Reflection (like the idea, turns Bump in the Night into 6 pts for 1 mana, seems sweet w/ trample but does nothing by itself)
Words of Waste (probably junk, but it could be exploitable)
Wild Pair (probably constrains your deck construction too much)
Lurking Predators (this seems sweet since you can get stuff you don't want out of the way and if Jund and/or Shardless BUG becomes prevalent this can really punish Cascade effects)
Whether any of the are worth the development time is another matter. Free stuff is good so anything that lets you put things into play has some potential (Lurking Predators, Call of the Wild). But yeah, Recycle. Land, draw. Explorer, draw. Zenith for Prime Time, draw + stick two extra lands. Bludgeon opponent.
Call of the Wild + Liliana Vess seems pretty nifty, though slow. Her -2 gets both Call and a creature and her starting loyalty is high enough that you don't have to plus her to use the second ability twice. That's slow though... (T1 Lili for Call, T2 draw + cast call, T3 -2 for target, activate Call).
Oh, I misunderstood.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
The best options for "winning on the spot" are Eldrazi Conscription and Recurring Nightmare. Both are conditional and have their respective weaknesses. If you want to go deep, you can add Omniscience to that list as well.
It's amusing to note, as well, even the single most broken enchantment of all time, Yawgmoth's Bargain, is only an engine: not a win condition. This is why I say that while Rector is very solid, you do have to work a bit more for your wins. You can assemble engines upon engines....but those engines, while they may bury your opponent in card advantage, don't DIRECTLY kill.
I also think that this is one reason why Scapewish has been more popular in the thread of late -- it doesn't durdle with engines and petty things like drawing cards. It just fucking kills people -- and that's an attractive trait for an archetype that tends to be brain-draining on a good day.
Kevin I like the build we have now An ultimately I think it's almost perfect. Many people obviously want more but what more can you really give!? I mean like I said before I think the deck is solid we have cards that are situational but overal the deck as a whole looks great. It has creatures people can't deal with and even though decks like MUD AND OMNI have bigger creatures we have ways of dealing with those decks too. I think that people can run bigger stronger cards WOODFALL PRIMUS has been a card that I have been eager yet weird about. It's ability it's absurd and with nightmare it just is boss an it's big. Stuff like that is possible but you hVe to take into Account that it is hard to get out and to reach its full power nightmare is needed. I think that omni in the deck would be fantastic. Obviously the only problem is its blue if you draw it then you have a dead card. If you grab it with rector you should win. The possibilities are fantastic. Drop omni play rector sac her grab recycle and just play everything. I think I may give it a try. I think with the right changes it could do as well as scapewish. I mean rector does durdle. But i think it has answers to everything. Sorry myQuote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Posts are somewhat everywhere. Alot on my mind lately I will post tournament reports in my next few events.
Well can someone help me with sideboarding. I have been doing good so far but I don't really do much sideboarding. My meta is full of bad match ups but here is what I am up against. I dont have the Natural Order's to practice with on MTGO but I will be using them in real life. I didn't buy any because I'm saving for moat and Nether Void. I am using the older SB list.
MUD
-NO SB
Burn
-3 Deed
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Inquistion of Kozilek
+2 Extirpate
Miracles
-3 Veteran Explorer
+3 Carpet of Flowers
BUG
-See Miracles
Stoneblade
-See BUG
Pox
ANT
-1 Moat
+1 Nether Void
My other question is Woodfall Primus. I have been thinking about him a lot lately. Only reason I haven't tried him is because it doesn't kill creatures if I have to play against Omni Show. But that seems like a small downside since I can green sun and NO for him. Plus if I get him out with Recurring Nightmare I can wipe someone out of the game. I can't test him because I don't have any, has anyone else used him?
Terastodon >>>> Woodfall Primus, not even close in any way. My BUG list plays Terastodon and it is amazing.
Primus nukes 1 NC permanent and is a 6/6. Terastodon nukes 1 NC permanent and two of your lands and is a 9/9 and a 3/3 and another 3/3. On top of that it is flexible and can nuke 3 of your own lands (which happens quite often) or up to 3 NC permanents of the opponent (never used it on more than 2 so far).
For the SB you have to show exact list and SB for more advice. This is what I can tell you now.
- Baneslayer Angel is terrible against white control decks so side them out.
- Side out Moat against Miracles.
- There are also a lot of aggressive BUG decks around, keep the Explorers in against them when you see Confidants or think they don't run many Planeswalkers.
- Against burn don't side out all your Enchantment removal or you will die to Sulfuric Vortex. Bring in Leyline of Sanctity if you have it because... you know.
- you should bring in Inquisition of Kozilek and Extirpate against ANT. I don't see why you wouldn't.
- Side in Extirpates against Pox, they are awesome against them.
Another enchantment I've been running in Rector-fit as a win condition and has been doing pretty decently is Collective Blessing. 4/4 Veteran Explorers, 5/4 E Witness makes even our smaller guys a threat.
Though I'm still just in testing phase with it.
Because the question about different versions came up quite often I made a summary of the advantages and disadvantages of the three most popular versions atm.
Rector
Advantages:
Triggering Academy Rector can handle many problem cards. If the opponent Show and Tells an Emrakul into play you can put Rector into play and sac it to enchant it with Faith's Fetters. Faith's Fetters is also a nice answer to Jace TMS because unlike with cards like Maelstrom Pulse (or Oblivion Ring) it keeps the Jace in play and because of the Legend rule for Planeswalkers the opponent can't just play the next Jace (same thing with Fetters on Emrakul). Rector also stops many aggro decks cold. It finds Deed against Swarm decks, Fetters against Burn and some decks have no maindeck out against a Moat. For the long game Recycle (Null Profusion) is a sick draw engine and Recurring Nightmare gives inevitability by recurring your Witnesses and other EtB creatures.
Other good cards that only the white Nic Fit versions get to play are big fliers. Sigarda, Host of Herons is a great GSZ target. On top of her impressive stats she deals with Planeswalkers and trades with the problematic Tombstalker. Baneslayer Angel is a solid card in the Moat version of the deck. She is a big problem for many decks in the current Metagame because she is pretty much unbeatable in a race and doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. With Yosei, the Morning Star and Recurring Nightmare you can softlock the opponent out of the game.
Post board Academy Rector can find a couple more specific hate Enchantments like Humility against Reanimator / Show and Tell decks or Nether Void against Combo.
Disadvantages:
The biggest problem with the Rector version is that with GSZ and Rector you have two tutor engines which inevitably dilutes the deck becauce both want a good number of one-offs to be flexible enough.
You cannot resolve the Academy Rector trigger against an acitve Deathrite Shaman (not every player knows how this interaction works but don't count on your opponent not knowing, especially on higher tables). With the current popularity of DR Shaman this weakens the deck quite a bit.
White does not have anything to offer for the early game. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spells than Swords to Plowshares for Nic Fit so the only thing white offers are cards that cost 4 or more Mana and at that point the other colors do powerful stuff, too.
Punishing Fire
Advantages:
The card Punishing Fire is awesome in the current Metagame. Against aggressive creature decks it kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch and all Tribal creatures (Goblins and Elves; Merfolk unless they have double pump Lords out). It also gives the deck a nice way deal with Planeswalkers like Jace or Liliana that otherwise would be a huge pain and can even act as a win condition in extremely grindy games. This way the card acts as a way to survive against Aggro early on and as a card advantage machine in the later stages of the game.
The Punishing Fire version also offers the best Green Sun's Zenith's of all version. Huntmaster of the Fells is a better GSZ target for x=4 than other colors have and it has nice synergy with Punishing Fire. But where the Fire version really shines is when you GSZ for six Mana: you can get Primeval Titan on 2 Grove of the Burnwillows to win long grindy games and Broodmate Dragon to have an immediate big impact on the board when you are under pressure. Dragon is especially useful for a green creature card when you face flying threats like Tombstalker or Delver of Secrets but also useful in offering two blockers or finishing the game quickly.
Recurring Nightmare is also best in red versions because of the synergy with Huntmaster of the Fells and Broodmate Dragon.
In the Sideboard the red versions have Slaughter games which is a much better card than you would expect at first sight. They are awesome against every form of control deck because Legacy Control decks often run very few win conditions and can't defend themselves against the extraction. Getting rid of Miracle's Entreat the Angels or Jaces will hurt them a lot and if you know their hand from Therapy or Thoughtseize it can act as another Discard spell that gives you a long-term advantage as a bonus.
Disadvantages:
Punishing Fire has the least raw power of the different versions. It doesn't have the same immediate impact like a huge tailor-made Enchantment or a game ending Scapeshift.
Another problem are creatures for the Fire version are creatures with a high toughness. Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary can usually be handled by chump blocking and using Deed but Tombstalker is very good against Punishing Nic Fit. This is why this version should always run a couple of Damnations in the maindeck and one or two additional removal spells for Tombstalkers in the SB (Go for the Throat or Terminate because they also kill DR Shaman and Confidant).
Scapeshift
Advantages:
Scapeshift very obviously has one big advantage and that is that it wins games. It gives you the option to brute force victories. Even though it usually tries to play a control game, you can be behind on the board, your opponent can be up 6 cards from Jace, you can die next turn to his beatdown but if you strip away the Force of Will with Cabal Therapy and resolve Scapeshift with enough lands in play you just win which is something other versions simply can't do, they always have to be in control of the game.
And this also gives you strategic advantages. The option to simply win is great even if you don't actually have the Scapeshift because it puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. He might overcommit into your mass removal because he thinks he has to kill you before you hit 7 Mana. Or he lets an important spell resolve that he could counter because he thinks he needs the Counterspell for Scapeshift.
Burning Wish is a double edged sword so I list it under advantages and disadvantages. The great thing about Burning Wish is its flexibility. It is Pyroclasm early on and later a Scapeshift to win the game or a Thoughtseize to nuke the opponent's Force of Will and make the Scapeshift in your hand resolve. Or a Slaughter Games on the opponent's win condition, a Reanimate on Huntmaster or a Damnation against Merfolk.
Disadvantages
The big advantages of the Scapeshift version come with a price. The first disadvantage is that while Burning Wish is a nice card to have in G1 it also reduces your SB slots significantly. You usually want to have at least 8 Wish targets to make the Wish flexible enough. Not being able to run two full playsets of silver bullets is quite painful. The Wish cards act a bit like normal SB cards, but they are much slower and restricted to being Sorceries.
Another big disadvantage is the Mana base. You have to run far more mountains and Valakuts than you would ever need to cast your spells. You also don't get to run Fetchlands which weakens your Tops and your Mana stability.
The third one is the card Scapeshift itself. It is a spell you can only cast with at least 7 lands in play (it is the best spell in the game at that but (except for corner cases) it doesn't do anything before that) and it forces you to run more Mana sources than you need for casting your other spells.
@Tao, Thanks a lot for your explanation. It is great, it clarifies lots of ongoing questions in a clear and simple way.
@Tao
Haha you forgot that Scapeshift can be casted to avoid wastelocks, sac 4 lands find all basics or find valakuts and slow roll miracles with mountain triggers
Unexpected Results seems great in BUG Fit!!
Ok inc my report with Scapewish
Round 1 Belcher win 2-1
G1 -> I laid a forest into top go, he proceeded with Belcher in the face for 40
sb -1 Primeval Titan +1 Thoughtseize
G2 -> Laid Explorer go, he vomitted 18 gobos, after which I blocked to fetch 2 basics and Deeded and proceeded to beat face with huntmasters
G3 -> Vomitted 14 gobos, Burning Wish into Pyroclasm sealed the deal
Round 2 Burn win 2-1
G1-> I stripped his hand while I stabalized at 9 life and beat him to death
no sb here
G2 -> I just got burned out LOL
G3 -> Burned down to 9 and had back to back Thragtusks, he paused to read the card, mumbles about this being legacy not modern and beast tokens got there after he double bolted thragtusks
Round 3 Esper Stoneblade lost 0-2
G1 -> He had Batterskull and Jitte beats, miscalculated on mana and got 1 mana short of scapeshifting him out after wishing for scapeshift, he topdecked a clique to remove scapeshift ):
G2 -> I did over 900 misplays and got buried too far into his Jtms CA
Round 4 Burn win 2-0
G1 and G2 were nothing but Thragtusks and Hunt Masters XD
Round 5 Esper Stoneblade loss 2-1
G1 -> He controlled me well with equipments and batterskull beats. I had 10 lands in play proceeded to burning wish for thoughtseize and stripped away FoW and scapeshift FTW! He stood up and clapped for me!
G2 -> Got buried in Jtms CA and lost after being mindsculpted!
G3 -> Tiredness came in after preparing for my L1 judge test earlier and misplayed a lot and I conceded to him.
This is a korean dude and he gave me some korean idol cards and a korean abrupt decay, basically he was totally impressed with scapewish and asked to have my decklist which I gladly gave and taught him how to play this deck
Round 6 Junk win 2-0
G1 -> We durdled around with discards and removal but scapeshift topdecks >>>>> any junk topdeck
G2 -> See G1 just that the game was SO LONG that I was able to angry mountains off his life total of 52 in 1 shot!
4-2 wasn't good enough for top 8 but I think I did well knowling that I didn't touch competitive magic for so long as I was busy judging
Nah, he didn't. He mentioned that it's useful for certain corner cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
my bad :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
I was just gonna say this, actually. There have been plenty of times where I've just Scapeshifted for value. It's also a 4-mana shuffle, if you need to do so. Desperate measure, but sometimes desperate times.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Other than that point, though, I agree with everything Tao noted.
I'm gonna do some brewing. I'll have some interesting stuff to discuss in a few hours.
I don't think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMetalSheep
First, it's a nonbo with GSZ.
Second, 1/3 of the time it's just a 4 mana ramp with buyback.
Third, most of our cards cost less than 4 (top, brainstorm, explorer, witness, therapy), so it actually costs more to cast this than to cast them.
Fourth, the shuffle clause makes it completely random. Topdecking this into a therapy late game sucks. Perhaps if you could use a top or brainstorm first...
Fifth, you only get the card back when you flip a land. MAYBE if it let you return it to your hand either way, it would be better.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...5&d=1358399731
No real content in this post yet (but today, I promise). But I just noticed something that I wanted to point out.
Nihil Credo just updated the DTB forum. I noticed something strange, so I did some digging. Sneak Attack had 1 more money finish than Nic Fit did in December (13 for Nic Fit, 14 for Sneak). Yet, Sneak Attack had 107 points to Nic Fit's 61(!!!), with the cutoff at 99. For reference, Rock had 22 finishes, but only 104 points.
Apparently, the way system works is that it takes into account the size of the tournaments. As of July 2011:
So, I'm now firmly convinced that this means we will never again see the DTB forum, and we should just resign ourselves to that fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Fact: pros don't, and won't play Nic Fit. It's not their kind of deck.
Fact: people outside of this forum are very unlikely to do well with the deck.
Fact: people in this forum (aka, people I trust to actually do well) don't go to many -big- events.
Sure, I got top 16 at an SCG. My top 16 offsets (or equals) the top 16 that Scapewish got in December, at Baltimore. That won't be enough. Not nearly. If we were almost 40 points short even with a top 16 at Baltimore, we're pretty much doomed for any kind of recognition outside of what we give each other.
So, now that I'm all depressed and stuff, I guess all that we can say is this:
-) We have the best community on Source, bar none. I am tremendously proud of every person in this thread.
-) When we do go to big events, we have a history of doing very well.
-) Nic Fit has a strong prestige at events like Jupiter and Mythic IQs, which matters a whole lot given the number of ringers who attend them -- even if Council won't recognize them as "major events."
-) At the end of the day, we all struggle with the comments that are directed at us. We've all expressed our various degrees of outrage the past few pages about how Nic Fit isn't regarded as a "real deck," or how we get mocked for playing a "standard deck," or whatever other bullshit that gets hurled at us that you want to insert here. But you know what? The joke's on them: and it will continue to be so for as long as we DON'T make the DTB forum. We'll just keep sitting here, quietly prizing events. And maybe someday we'll get recognized for the amazing deck that we truly have here. or maybe we won't, and we'll continue to get derided. But either way, we'll know the truth -- that we are all, every one of us, badasses.
Because seriously. How many people get to say that they've killed a goblins player with Sun Titan recurring Pernicious Deed? Or that they've locked out 12post with Yosei? Or that they've Scapeshifted someone for 52? In competitive legacy.
So, I hope that each and every one of you carries yourself with the same pride that I do, knowing full well that despite the monkeys throwing feces in our faces, our deck is better, cooler, and requires more skill to play successfully than any of their lame netdecks.
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/upl...-applause3.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@ No DTB: Haters gonna hare, and fitters gonna fit
@ Unexpected Results: So far GTC just looks like garbage across the board. They might pull an ARB though and put all the good whit in DGM.
GTC looks like shit because Nic Fit players aren't Boros players. Just that simple. GTC is a Boros player's wet dream, and everything else is ass....so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
I will note that Grumpycat aka Superbob aka Darkmantle whatever does seem quite excellent, but that's not a concern for us. I can recognize it as good in the abstract, but it's not something Nic Fit cares about.
To be truthful I'm really glad that we aren't a deck to beat. I mean the surprise factor is nice, but getting called a standard deck is pretty tiring especially when I run 7-8 standard cards. The BUG Delver I played against recently had 4 Delver, 4 Snapcaster, 4 Deathrite Shaman, and 4 Abrupt Decay. And WE are the standard deck.....
Also has anyone else tested out Collective Blessing in a Rector version. +3/+3 enchantment has seemed solid in testing, but I still am unsure about it.
Okay, I've got two things for everyone this afternoon.
First up, I've got some Rector updates. This is the latest Rector list:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Extirpate
1x Memoricide
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
The changes:
SB:
-1 Natural Order
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
Whiteline is -stupid- good right now in the meta. While I want the fourth NO, I believe that there is too much discard present in the meta for the 4th copy to be a good call right now. Aside from them just discarding it if it's in your hand, even them seeing it would be a huge tip-off.
Maindeck:
-1 Deed (back to 3)
-1 Diabolic Intent
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Abrupt Decay
Right now, Rector needs a backup to Rector for when you board OUT the Rectors but still need the Deeds (Junk, notably). The Enlightened Tutor should help with this, while also helping to find Top in grindy attrition mirrors. He who has the Top wins. Rector also wants a little more spot removal than usual in the current meta, ergo, Decay. That actually gives the deck a full playset of cards that deal with Liliana of the Veil (Fetters, Pulse, Vindicate, Decay).
Note that pending testing, those two slots could easily be 2 Tutors, 2 Decays, or completely different. But that's the way my thought process is trending right now. The last time I played Rector was in the Legacy Challenge at Columbus. I played against 4 good matchups, but I couldn't find enough Deeds when I boarded the Rectors out for the NO package. As such, some extra redundancy therein is probably important.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Now, I have decided after these last few pages that it is long past time that the BUG version gets ironed out.
To that end, I have brewed the following. Note that this is very rough, and while it is grounded in the concept that I actually tried for BUG some time ago, it's obviously in need of tuning and experience. This is the my first serious iteration of Future Fit:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
2x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
2x Trinket Mage
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Death Wish
1x Grim Tutor
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Future Sight
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Damnation
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Academy Ruins
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Tropical Island
3x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 8 ???
The remaining 8 slots in the board will be filled out as time passes and testing is done. I have three more Nic Fit concepts in mind that I am planning on sketching out before seriously testing: Chronos Fit, Rainbow Fit, and Friendly Fit. Chronos Fit will be setup to focus on taking additional turns, ideally by going infinite with Time Warp + Eternal Witness; Rainbow Fit will be another crack at the Chromatic Lantern concept, and I'm hoping will be a dedicated Gifts list; Friendly Fit will be a BUG-colored Superfriends list.
I don't have the time to brew all of them at the moment, but I'm hoping that they will be in a publishable form by the end of the day tomorrow. Blue-based Nic Fit has been a very great challenge for me because of the tyranny of options inherent within the color combination. Even traditional BUG suffers from this, which is why we have BUG Delver, BUG Control, BUGStill, and Shardless BUG. There is a significant number of options for viable ways in which BUG-colored Nic Fit could go, and I intend on examining each, piece-by-piece, until a consensus is reached on which route works the best (and, if any other routes are viable, like PFire and Scapewish are both viable Red Nic Fit versions). I'm sure that some of these ideas will be absolutely atrocious, but that's how we strike gold.
And if anyone wants to proxy up any of these ideas and test them out a bit, I am all for that. I'll take whatever data I can get.
I like the NO-Pro package to change rector against DRS decks.
I have done zero testing with this, but the BUG deck looks like it is trying to do too much. While I think future sight (and the combo), and ruins/glissa+trinket mage package both have merit and are powerful engines, putting them in the same list just seems like too much. I could be totally wrong, but it seems like it would be the same as putting p-fires in a list with burning wishes and scapeshift. I think if you are going to have the future sight wincon, the rest of deck needs to be "simple" not doing anything to crazy, just playing cards that are getting you value and disrupting your opponent.
I have to say though, the glissa path seems alot better now that people arent using real GY hate cards since they DRS should provide enough hate.
Also, brainstorm is a really good card. All the things that it can do are things this deck wants. I can't think of a good reason not to run 4 of them.
I love that card.Quote:
... plays Cabal Therapy from hand.
...: k?
Saptu: absolutely : )
...: coralhelm commander :D
Saptu: ? your cheating, its the only fucking nonland card i have in my hand
gtfo
...: no?
You have been kicked out of the game.
Play it, you 60-card goons! It is good :O
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/roe/3.jpg
But I guess you've all been told conscription is bad and recycling rocks : /
Well now that I'm home and off my computer I will post my results from a Wednesday night legacy I went to.
Current list is as follows.
Creatures:15
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Academy Rector
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Aramada Wurm
1x Sun Titan
Planeswalkers:3
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
Enchantments:6
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Null Profusion
1x Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts:3
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant/Sorc:12
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Land:21
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Forest
SB:15
2x Choke
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Extirpate
Round 1: Hypergenesis 2-0 Win
Game 1: I don't recall exactly how the first 2 turns went here, but he drops a shardless agent into Hypergenesis. I found out that Null Profusion wins against Genesis lol. He casts his hand I just plop about 2/3 of my deck down and win on my next turn.
Dont remember what I take out but side in O-Rings, and Memoricide/Extract
Game2: I start out therapy naming shardless agent and hit a pair of them. I soon after drop Sigarda and ride her to victory.
Round 2: Show and Tell 1-2
Game 1: I lose the die roll and he goes Tomb-Petal S&T into Emrakul. I drop a swamp and attempt to Innocent Blood. It resolves and he never does anything other than force of will an Academy Rector.
-2 Deed +2 Oblivion Ring -1 Garruk +1 Extraction -1 Armada Wurm +1 Memoricide
Game 2: He goes Island Go. I attempt to therapy and he dazes. I attempt to drop an explorer and he FoW. I durdle and he drops a Griselbrand followed by and Emrakul. It hurt.
Game 3: Read game 1 except I didn't have an answer.
Round 3:RUG Delver: 2-0 Win
Game 1: I lose die roll and he goes Tropical into Mongoose. I drop an explorer and pass it back. He drops another land and 2 Delvers and passes. I therapy him and see 2 Goyfs and some other chaff but no brainstorm that I had named. I flash back for the FoW in his hand since he had no other blue spell to pair it with. I then throw down a GSZ for 1 for a second Explorer. He reveals a Stifle and both Delvers flip. He swings out and I trade with the Goose. I topdeck a therapy hitting his stifle. Then drop deed and wipe the field. After that I drop an Armada Wurm and ended the game with himself and 3 Wurms from Nightmare.
-1 Deathrite -1 Teeg +2 Choke
Game 2: I go turn 1 Explorer Turn 2 Explorer. He starts with double Delver and a brainstorm to flip them. My life goes from 20 to 14 to 8 to 2 before I topdeck a tower bomb off one explorer and then deed for 2 hitting his entire field. I drop a Thragtusk followed by a Rector which I tower into a Nightmare to put me up to 12 after I drop him to 15. Then I hit a GSZ onto Sigarda and its over.
Round 4: High Tide 1-2
Game 1: My worst nightmare bleh. Game 1 I speed him up and die promptly by turn 5.
Game 2: Favorite game in FOREVER this game made going 2-2 worth it. Slow roll it and I drop a memoricide naming High Tide, Then next turn I extraction his Time Spiral. The I eternal witness the memoricide and name cunning wish. Then I witness again naming brain freeze I end up doing this once more but he just scoops at this point.
Game 3: No hate after mulling to 5 and just lose.
So ended the night 2-2 but it was just a rough night on the losses. I never once saw gaddock teeg in the matches I needed it and I just lost to show and tell which happens sometimes.