[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

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Originally Posted by Valech

Don´t know in what kind of meta you play, but my confidants or my mystics, after searching a batterskull, eat removal all the time. A little bit of protection really annoys my opponent. Which I like.
Also, how does BB affect the board the same Turn as LS? BB: T1 Play it, T2 produce Token, T3 attack. LS: T1 Play it + 2 Tokens T2 attack, T3 play it perhaps again. So when you, at its best, attack with two creatures Turn 4 ill attack with four creatures Turn 4. You´ll catch even in Turn 6.
Additionally it´s very nice drop two creatures at once. Jace cant return two creatures in one turn. Liliana cant make me dacridice two in one turn. Scroll cant hit two at once. How often did I witness that my opponent somehow deals with my Faerie-tokens one after another while I had to deal with the lifeloss + a jitte, that waswaiting unused on my side of the board.

Again, I do not consider BB a weak card. I do like it more than LS in terms of Playstyle. It just fits me more. But currently it would be the card i board out in most situations.

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Exactly how are you playing LS on turn one? I don't know what kind of build your running but to cast a 3cc spell on turn 1 with deadguy is pretty impressive. If you have to drop 2 chrome moxes on turn one to play a lingering souls, you may want to rethink your play style hahaha

Would you play Aether Vial in this deck? No. That's the same reason you don't play Mother of Runes. The fact you have a creature to protect does not justify Mom. Nearly all Legacy decks have creatures they'd like to protect. But when your creature (and threat) count is low, you can't, nor want, to waste space on Mom. The way you annoy your opponent is discard, board destruction, and superior card advantage to bury them once they get behind. It isn't giving your Confidant pro-white. That is what Maverick does because they don't play black. Use your first turn to take their removal out of hand, and play out your creature turn two.

As for BB, you can play it or not. Obviously it's your choice. It's a boss against the two biggest decks, and will definitely be in my 60. I'm not sure how this confused you, but what I meant is Lingering Souls makes tokens on turn three, and BB starts to make tokens on turn three. Additionally, I'm not sure how this is relevant to discuss because I'm not trying to replace one with the other.

Why do you say you'd board out BB most of the time? You need to give some reasons to back up a claim like that.

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Originally Posted by TPurcell

Exactly how are you playing LS on turn one? I don't know what kind of build your running but to cast a 3cc spell on turn 1 with deadguy is pretty impressive. If you have to drop 2 chrome moxes on turn one to play a lingering souls, you may want to rethink your play style hahaha

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Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

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Originally Posted by Valech

Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

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The value you place on Mother of Runes is completely wrong. It's because you play even fewer threats than I do if you don't use BB. Between BB, Souls and Sorin, I don't care as much about spot removal. If it hits my SFM or Confidant, then fine. Such is legacy. I'm not wasting slots to potentially protect eight cards. This is still assuming you didn't strip the removal from their hand turn one. Besides, I get Jitte more often than Batterskull because my deck is heavily token oriented so the damage is already done with SFM.

I bury my opponent with cards like SFM, Confidant, Souls, Therapy, BB, Jitte, Liliana, and Sorin. Then the same efficient one for ones everybody plays.

You never answered my question about BB, either.

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Originally Posted by Valech

Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

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I actually like LS a lot more than BB at this point and agree that it is more useful in almost every situation at the moment. On turn 2 (or turn 1 if your using a Chrome Mox) I want to be casting SFM or BOB with a hopefull SFM activation turn 3. BB is most dominant against a more control oriented deck but LS is useful in any matchup.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

The value you place on Mother of Runes is completely wrong. It's because you play even fewer threats than I do if you don't use BB. Between BB, Souls and Sorin, I don't care as much about spot removal. If it hits my SFM or Confidant, then fine. Such is legacy. I'm not wasting slots to potentially protect eight cards. This is still assuming you didn't strip the removal from their hand turn one. Besides, I get Jitte more often than Batterskull because my deck is heavily token oriented so the damage is already done with SFM.

I bury my opponent with cards like SFM, Confidant, Souls, Therapy, BB, Jitte, Liliana, and Sorin. Then the same efficient one for ones everybody plays.

You never answered my question about BB, either.

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First of all, "Such is Legacy" is neither a good reason nor an excuse for losing keycards to spotremoval. Second, "strip the removal" sounds like a) they only run few removals, at least less than I run removal and b) that the scariest thing in their hand is the removal. third, I don´t care about my Spirits/Vampires/Faeries being removed, I care about important cards being removed. I don´t see why one wouldn´t want to protect them. Did I mention, that Mother at its worst still means to be able to block goyfs, knights and co. without loss of your blocker?

To answer your question, which I have sadfully overread, if I ask myself what I need against certain deck I of course also ask myself what I need to board out. When it came to BB the answer often was "too slow", "no additional lifeloss", "won´t have much impact against combo", s"creams for spellpierce" or simply added up "won´t help as much as other cards".

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Originally Posted by Valech

First of all, "Such is Legacy" is neither a good reason nor an excuse for losing keycards to spotremoval. Second, "strip the removal" sounds like a) they only run few removals, at least less than I run removal and b) that the scariest thing in their hand is the removal. third, I don´t care about my Spirits/Vampires/Faeries being removed, I care about important cards being removed. I don´t see why one wouldn´t want to protect them. Did I mention, that Mother at its worst still means to be able to block goyfs, knights and co. without loss of your blocker?

To answer your question, which I have sadfully overread, if I ask myself what I need against certain deck I of course also ask myself what I need to board out. When it came to BB the answer often was "too slow", "no additional lifeloss", "won´t have much impact against combo", s"creams for spellpierce" or simply added up "won´t help as much as other cards".

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I know it looks appealing to protect SFM and Confidant, but you really don't need it. Your discard should do her job already, while being good against combo. I don't want StP and Mom in my Deadguy deck. That's too many potentially dead cards for game one. Your creatures need to be high impact when you play so few, and Mom is not individually good. Mom is only good turn one, followed up by SFM or Confidant turn two. The odds for that happening are approximately 26%. You can double check that to make sure I did it right. [(1-0.3464)*(1-0.6005) = 0.2611]. You can obviously top deck the SFM or Confidant later, but if that Mom had been BB in those vacant turns then your board position would be a lot stronger.

I think the slots you're putting Mom is the same slots I'm putting BB. I just don't see how you can possibly cut threats.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I know it looks appealing to protect SFM and Confidant, but you really don't need it. Your discard should do her job already, while being good against combo. I don't want StP and Mom in my Deadguy deck. That's too many potentially dead cards for game one. Your creatures need to be high impact when you play so few, and Mom is not individually good. Mom is only good turn one, followed up by SFM or Confidant turn two. The odds for that happening are approximately 26%. You can double check that to make sure I did it right. [(1-0.3464)*(1-0.6005) = 0.2611]. You can obviously top deck the SFM or Confidant later, but if that Mom had been BB in those vacant turns then your board position would be a lot stronger.

I think the slots you're putting Mom is the same slots I'm putting BB. I just don't see how you can possibly cut threats.

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I will try BB instead of Moms. I will try to be as unbiassed as possible. i´ll return with results.

Hey Guys, this is my version of deadguy. i like the creaturebase pretty much, since you put a bigger presure on the opponent. mixed with discard this give you pretty good control over the game. anyone have any oppinions they like to share? :)... feel free to comment on both main and SB please.

one thing i am questioning is tidehollow sculler, for me it doesnt seem so strong?... easy to kill with both spells and creatures. it seems like you play it, steal a card and nothing more, since you cant attack without have it getting killed. and you cant block for the same reason. whats the thing with this card?...
second. why is mirran crusader such a big deal? i mean 3 cc is pretty heavy in my oppinion. what makes it so good that it fits into legacy? :)
NB. im bringen one more thoughtseize into the deck, dunno yet instead of what. hymn probably going out.
bring your comments :)

Creatures: 18
4x dark confidant
3x mother of runes
3x stoneforge mystic
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x hidehollow sculler
3x Serra Avenger

artifacts 8
2x sensei top
1x batterskull
1x jitte
4x Æthervial

Instans: 4
4x plowshares

Sorceries: 8
1x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek
2x hymn to tourach
2x vindicate


Planeswalkers 2
2x Liliana of the veil


lands 20
4x wasteland
4x scrubland
4x flat marsh
3x bloodstained mire
2x plain
3x swamps


sideboard: 15
2x Tormods crypt/relic of progenitus/rest in peace
2x Extirpate
2x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x sword of fire and ice
2x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x perish/ghastly demice/path to exile
1x hymn to tourach
1x pithing needle

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Originally Posted by attemanden

Hey Guys, this is my version of deadguy. i like the creaturebase pretty much, since you put a bigger presure on the opponent. mixed with discard this give you pretty good control over the game. anyone have any oppinions they like to share? :)... feel free to comment on both main and SB please.

one thing i am questioning is tidehollow sculler, for me it doesnt seem so strong?... easy to kill with both spells and creatures. it seems like you play it, steal a card and nothing more, since you cant attack without have it getting killed. and you cant block for the same reason. whats the thing with this card?...
second. why is mirran crusader such a big deal? i mean 3 cc is pretty heavy in my oppinion. what makes it so good that it fits into legacy? :)
NB. im bringen one more thoughtseize into the deck, dunno yet instead of what. hymn probably going out.
bring your comments :)

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I really like your list! It looks like Death 'n Taxes with black. I will test it for sure!
I would actually drop the hymns. Even if you play 4 Scrubland and 7 Fetches, it can be hard to have BB turn 2. I would exchange the Hymns with more CMC1 discard.
Concerning your question regarding Mirran Crusader: This guy is a really big clock, which is, what this deck is missing at the moment. He dies to STP and red removal, which is the reason why i play Moms to protect him. Did you ever attack with Mirran Crusader carrying a Jitte or Sword? Its basically GG when he connects.

I know, most people in this thread favour token-based strategies and i acknowledge that there is no space for a 3drop Mirran Crusader in their lists, but speaking for myself, i did very well with him in countless testgames and a few tournaments.

I guess Serra Avenger takes Mirran Crusaders space in your list in terms of function.

Call me a bit crazy but a couple of sideboard cards im thinking of playing is Memoricide / Cranial Extraction Nevermore cost they are strong against against Miracles / show and tell. Against miracles hit either jace / miracle will greatly remove the chances of them able to comeback in a game. Pinpoint Discard into nevermore is pretty sweet, kinda like the old Finkula deck from 2001/2 where you went duress into meddlingmage.

Totally worth trying it out.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Call me a bit crazy but a couple of sideboard cards im thinking of playing is Memoricide / Cranial Extraction Nevermore cost they are strong against against Miracles / show and tell. Against miracles hit either jace / miracle will greatly remove the chances of them able to comeback in a game. Pinpoint Discard into nevermore is pretty sweet, kinda like the old Finkula deck from 2001/2 where you went duress into meddlingmage.

Totally worth trying it out.

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Cranial Extraction is four mana right? That's a little too high to stop a combo deck IMO. Nevermore...maybe especially if you play accelerates like Shaman or Chrome Mox.

Against Miracles I haven't had a problem yet. I play Revoker and Engineered Explosives to deal with Top and tokens. Bitterblossom is awesome against a Terminus since i will regain my army slowly.

Show and tell i have more problems....if only Gatekeeper were able to work off a show and tell, like Fleshbag Marauder or Shriekmaw. Too bad Shriekmaw is non black and non artifact. I've hit Emrakul with Shriekmaw on a few occasions off a show and tell....lol, the looks on their faces is priceless.

I'm not very fond of your strategy for Miracles. Revoker shutting down Top is really nice, and probably the best way to slow them down. The problem is that he's a creature, and Miracles is packed full of ways to deal with creatures. Have you tried Pithing Needle, as a comparison? It might be a more reliable card in the match up.

As for SnT decks, play Oblivion Ring. It is a (mostly) functional replacement for Vindicate, and just happens to work against a top combo deck right now. You can also play Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard, instead of Disenchant. I'm not sure if it's worth dropping the instant-speed yet. I'm still trying it out.

Has anybody tried Shaman here? I know we don't have green, but that's not the end of the world. He provides more reach, which is something we are lacking, and accelerates without being terrible in the late game, like Chrome Mox. I know he doesn't play so nicely with Therapy or Souls, but since your opponent's graveyard is also fair game, I think he could work.

In the limited testing I've done, without green DRS isn't quite worth it. Being a black manadork that blocks Lackey and pings for 2 is good, but being inconsistent at the mana ramp isn't quite worth a slot. When you can activate the ability to eat creatures you can fight Dredge/Reanimator G1, and gain some critical life against fast Aggro, he really starts to shine. It's like playing a creature Liliana, he's almost always gonna be good for something.

If storm combo is gonna go off turn 1 or 2 through discard there isnt anything you can do anyway. If you however able to stall them from going of by a couple of turns its very much possible to extract enought cards out with surgicals / Cranials / Nevermores. By Removing the enablers its very much possible to make them unable to win.

Extracting a miracles jaces and banning the entreats they will have very little to no killing condictions left.

Against show and tell kind want to hit either show and tell or burning wish. hiting the wish means they cant go inf with omni into storm you out.

Accels like mox and deathrite makes it much easier to hit the correct number of mana.

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Originally Posted by evilGod

In the limited testing I've done, without green DRS isn't quite worth it. Being a black manadork that blocks Lackey and pings for 2 is good, but being inconsistent at the mana ramp isn't quite worth a slot. When you can activate the ability to eat creatures you can fight Dredge/Reanimator G1, and gain some critical life against fast Aggro, he really starts to shine. It's like playing a creature Liliana, he's almost always gonna be good for something.

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Then why not spash green, adding a couple of Bayou's or maybe a single forest just for Shaman and a couple of Abrupts is well worth it. As for the abilities, I definitely agree that DRS is an all around card, almost like a Swiss army knife which can wreck several decks at the same time is bad to a few like SnT (Show and Tell DRS is the worst possible combination).

I'm just waiting for Gatecrash just to see what goodies Orzhov will get, and hopefully the Charm will be doing something good as well like discard / exile creature / etc (I can dream :tongue:)

As for the SB options, Nevermore is quite interesting, and maybe worth testing, the good side about it is that if you are running a Mox build then its quite easy to imprint Nevermore to it if you don't need it.

I haven't tried this list yet but am thinking of running:

Lands(20)
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Murmuring Bosk

Creatures(17)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Aven Mindcensor

Artfiacts/Enchantments/Planeswalkers(6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells(17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls

SIDEBOARD(15)
2 Extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Thoughts? :)

I'm not a huge fan of Aven Mindcensor. It's a decent card but since you are splashing green.....can't you play Tarmogoyf? I would also try and increase Liliana to 3 if you can. She's that good, I've won many a game with her on the board.

I might also cut the Bosk for a dual land. I know why you are playing it but you already have Bojuka Bog, having 2 come into play tapped lands isn't that good imo. 20 lands and 2 shaman is a bit low mana wise I think. Right now I'm running 20 lands, 2 Chrome Mox and a Shaman (lol, I know who the heck plays just one shaman?) and I find sometimes I can have mana problems.





As for someone commenting on Revoker. Yeah I know Miracles can kill it easily but I still prefer Revoker over Needle because he's a dude. My deck doesn't run as many creatures as other builds so if my hate cards can do some damage, even better. Miracles so far for me isn't that bad of a matchup. I run Bitterblossom which is a house against them. The only tier 1 deck I have trouble against is Show and tell. I even considered making Team Italia, in order to be able to use REB's and Pyroblast.

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Originally Posted by Wilkin

I'm not a huge fan of Aven Mindcensor. It's a decent card but since you are splashing green.....can't you play Tarmogoyf? I would also try and increase Liliana to 3 if you can. She's that good, I've won many a game with her on the board.

I might also cut the Bosk for a dual land. I know why you are playing it but you already have Bojuka Bog, having 2 come into play tapped lands isn't that good imo. 20 lands and 2 shaman is a bit low mana wise I think. Right now I'm running 20 lands, 2 Chrome Mox and a Shaman (lol, I know who the heck plays just one shaman?) and I find sometimes I can have mana problems.





As for someone commenting on Revoker. Yeah I know Miracles can kill it easily but I still prefer Revoker over Needle because he's a dude. My deck doesn't run as many creatures as other builds so if my hate cards can do some damage, even better. Miracles so far for me isn't that bad of a matchup. I run Bitterblossom which is a house against them. The only tier 1 deck I have trouble against is Show and tell. I even considered making Team Italia, in order to be able to use REB's and Pyroblast.

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I don't have goyfs and am running bosk coz I don't have a third bayou. :) I was supposed to run mirran crusader for the censor's slot, but decided to run censor for a change.

Hi guys, after a long time i decided to play DGA again, heading into the GP Bochum Legacy-Championship. Below u see my List, but nothing to exciting or innovative here:

Manabase (22 Karten)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Creatures (8 Karten)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Discard (9 Karten)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
Removal (7 Karten)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ghastly Demise
Token (7 Karten)
4 Lingering Souls
3 Bitterblossom
Planeswalker (5 Karten)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Equipments (3 Karten)
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard (15 Karten)
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Silence
3 Cursed Totem

MUs were
vs. ANT 2:1
vs. UW-Control 1:1
vs. BUG Tempo 0:2
vs. Maverick 2:0
vs. Aluren 2:1
vs. Canadian 0:2
vs. Goblins 2:0
vs. Dredge 0:2
finally 4:3:1 and Place 32/132. Not the World, but I was quite surprised how well the List felt. Changes will be cutting Hymns (maybe +2 Zealous +2 TS), changing up Graveyardhate in the Board and looking for an replacement for Ghastly Demise, i had several Situations where i could not shot down a Deathrite Shaman or other black creature and lost because of this.

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

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Never tried that combo before but I'm going to say probably not. Combo decks like say Belcher, Sneak/show, ANT should combo off before you play the combo. Other decks like say Canadian Threshold should be able to counter one of the cards of the combo.
But who knows? I would say that it isn't expected so if someone isn't prepared for it, you may catch some people with their pants down.

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

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I would say "No".

Most combos are faster than this. And mana fixer, like Noble Hierarch and Deathrite Shaman, is popular currently.

Have left the moxes behind no longer playing with chrome moxes.

20 lands where 7 of them are fetchs and 4 wastelands and with 4 deathrite shamans and 5 duals 4 scrub / bayou.

Sideboard got changed a bit as well:
2 Perish
4 surgical extraction
1 Inquisition of kozilek
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nevermore
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Humility
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Nevermore / cranial and memoricide are for miracle matchups.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Have left the moxes behind no longer playing with chrome moxes.

20 lands where 7 of them are fetchs and 4 wastelands and with 4 deathrite shamans and 5 duals 4 scrub / bayou.

Sideboard got changed a bit as well:
2 Perish
4 surgical extraction
1 Inquisition of kozilek
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nevermore
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Humility
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Nevermore / cranial and memoricide are for miracle matchups.

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I would try and fit in more lands imo. You do have 4 Deathrites and that's good but you still need a colored mana to cast them and then hope it doesn't get bolted.

I'm running 20 lands, 2 chrome mox and (lol) one shaman. I may try more shamans but IMO i would also have to increase land count and the deck is better being Junk.....if you are going with some green sources might as well go with stuff like Decay and Knight of the Reliquary. The mana is a bit tight the way it is now. I am liking going with only 2 Chrome Mox as I'm less likely to draw it late game it seems. I do like the Shaman when I do see and use him.

Hard for me to let go of using Chrome Mox. In a tournament on Saturday I did a Thoughtseize and an Inquisition first turn VS. RUG. I took away a Mongoose and a daze. Liliana and Bitterblossom soon followed. Also against Omniscience combo I had a first turn Thalia. Turn 2 I wasted his one land and then played Dark Confidant. GG.

Too bad there isn't a Thragtusk like creature available in black/white....Terminus is really annoying. My best answer for that right now is Bitterblossom. My other suggestion for Miracles is Pithing Needle on Sensei's Diving Top. They can still brainstorm and Jace but they have to work a lot more to Miracle.

I've been using Bitterblossom, and I also use a Lumincarch Ascension in my sideboard for Miracles. That, plus Pithing Needle and EE make the matchup much less terrible.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I've been using Bitterblossom, and I also use a Lumincarch Ascension in my sideboard for Miracles. That, plus Pithing Needle and EE make the matchup much less terrible.

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Luminarch....Interesting. How does that work out vs Miracles? And do you use it against anyone else?

I run a couple of EE myself. It's great not only for the Angel tokens but you can use to it to try and kill Counterbalance.

It's incredible against Miracles. They can't Terminus or Swords it away, and it forces them to find an EtA quickly, which means fewer angels. Or they don't find it, and lose to one card.

I haven't used it against anybody else yet. It's obviously good against any deck that doesn't chip away at your life. It could be good against a slow BUG deck, and it would definitely rock against Lands. I would bring it in against combo too, other than Dredge. You can disrupt them, play Luminarch, and hope they can't rebuild in four turns. Not ideal, but it's better than keeping StP or BB in.

Any1 tested Judge's Familiar in this deck? Results?

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FortyThree

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree

---

Well, the only thing I don´t like about your list is that I like your list >< It seems indeed like it is more controlly that way, whichfore I surely will playtest it, but it simply has lost its light-darkness-good-evil-style -.- What originally was the reason for me to give this deck a try.
Well, that being said, I would have some minor suggestions depending the list. I would want a third Liliana and a third Inquisition. I would drop both Tops for that, although you said you like them. The reason for that is, that we gain other means of exploiting Confidant (read: brainstorm) and that we don´t want to be outtapped in the crucial phase of the duel, which would be the beginning.
Regarding you manabase I won´t discuss Moxen. Just too preferential. What I would do is to drop an Island and add an Underground Sea (I know, costy :/).
And last but not least, exchance O-Ring with Detention Sphere. It has awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valech

Well, the only thing I don´t like about your list is that I like your list >< It seems indeed like it is more controlly that way, whichfore I surely will playtest it, but it simply has lost its light-darkness-good-evil-style -.- What originally was the reason for me to give this deck a try.
Well, that being said, I would have some minor suggestions depending the list. I would want a third Liliana and a third Inquisition. I would drop both Tops for that, although you said you like them. The reason for that is, that we gain other means of exploiting Confidant (read: brainstorm) and that we don´t want to be outtapped in the crucial phase of the duel, which would be the beginning.
Regarding you manabase I won´t discuss Moxen. Just too preferential. What I would do is to drop an Island and add an Underground Sea (I know, costy :/).
And last but not least, exchance O-Ring with Detention Sphere. It has awesome.

---

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad that I at least was not so off the mark with my attempted changes =)
I'll address your points one by one:

Regarding Liliana, Inquisition and top:
I agree. I'd like to have both of these. Whilst I don't feel there is a need for 9-10 pieces of discard like in a normal DGA build, I feel 4 is slightly on the lower end. Liliana is simply a beast when in a control position, so no arguments there. However, I'm really apprehensive towards getting rid of the tops. I think you're right that you don't want to be tapped out in the early parts of the game, but in my experience I have no problems with waiting until the mid game to begin using the top. At that point, Bob can be used pretty much indefinitely, and it helps a lot when needing to dig for particular answers. I think what I might do is remove the zealous persecution and put a third inquisition or third liliana in. Whilst zealous persecution works really nicely for me in DGA, its purpose is mostly as a sweeper against tons of X/1 creatures, and I feel like this list has good answers to that sort of threat already.

Regarding Chrome Mox:
I actually have found myself not quite liking Chrome Mox so much in DGA, and have been thinking about switching them out for lands. It seems like in the early game it's never an easy decision to lose a card, and in the mid/late game it becomes quite worse than drawing a land. I think I might switch them out anyway. As for switching an Island for an U Sea, I agree 100%, but I will not be doing that until later on.

Regarding O-ring/detention sphere:
Agreed. Totally forgot about Sphere =P


Regards,

FortyThree

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FortyThree

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad that I at least was not so off the mark with my attempted changes =)
I'll address your points one by one:

Regarding Liliana, Inquisition and top:
I agree. I'd like to have both of these. Whilst I don't feel there is a need for 9-10 pieces of discard like in a normal DGA build, I feel 4 is slightly on the lower end. Liliana is simply a beast when in a control position, so no arguments there. However, I'm really apprehensive towards getting rid of the tops. I think you're right that you don't want to be tapped out in the early parts of the game, but in my experience I have no problems with waiting until the mid game to begin using the top. At that point, Bob can be used pretty much indefinitely, and it helps a lot when needing to dig for particular answers. I think what I might do is remove the zealous persecution and put a third inquisition or third liliana in. Whilst zealous persecution works really nicely for me in DGA, its purpose is mostly as a sweeper against tons of X/1 creatures, and I feel like this list has good answers to that sort of threat already.

Regarding Chrome Mox:
I actually have found myself not quite liking Chrome Mox so much in DGA, and have been thinking about switching them out for lands. It seems like in the early game it's never an easy decision to lose a card, and in the mid/late game it becomes quite worse than drawing a land. I think I might switch them out anyway. As for switching an Island for an U Sea, I agree 100%, but I will not be doing that until later on.

Regarding O-ring/detention sphere:
Agreed. Totally forgot about Sphere =P


Regards,

FortyThree

---

I used to play a DGA List without Tops at all and never lost a match due to confidant-caused lifeloss. Even with Batterskull and two Sorins. Thats why I never found that the Confidant-Top-Synergy was a big deal. Although of course I have to admit, that negligable damage is still worse than no damage at all. Whichfore I understand your point. Furthermore I think cutting Zealous Persecution is the right way if you insist on keeping Top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FortyThree

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree

---

I don't think you need a blue splash to beat combo. We have access to Thalia, discard, and mana disruption. Between those I have never had a problem with Slower combo (show and tell) or Ant/TES. I run 4 Thoughtseize/3 Inquisition, 3 Thalia, 4 Tidehollow. 4 moms protect my dudes. Not only is Tidehollow great against combo, but it is sensational with 1 mana discard to back it up. It is a huge tempo card in the creature matchups as well. Finding a hand with 2 pieces of disruption in the opener will usually get there, unless ofcourse they go off first turn on the play. Even then, you are less than 50% to have the Force of Will anyway.

Also, testing 2 Deathrites main with 1 Bayou and 9 Green Fetches. All for Grips and Chokes in the board. Seriously, Choke is where you wanna be at right now. Have not had any issues getting green when I need it.

Cheers

I just made new deck list. I'll report test results later.

Creatures: 15

4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler Spells: 25

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Batterskull
1x Bitterblossom
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Vindicate

Land: 20

1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
2x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath

Side: 15

1x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Jötun Grunt
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Zealous Persecution

If everyone is going to add green, you have no reason to keep the Deadguy cards. You might as well play Rock, and get Knight and Tarmogoyf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

If everyone is going to add green, you have no reason to keep the Deadguy cards. You might as well play Rock, and get Knight and Tarmogoyf.

---

While I admit that Goyf is great and easily splashible, it doesnt provide enough utility to a deadguy deck. Just by playing Deadguy we are already putting ourselves at a disadvantage by playing an inferior deck. To compensate for this I want to play creatures that "do" something besides beating and blocking. Eventually it just gets to the point where there is no room for Goyf. I have a plan to "out card advantage" and out tempo my opponent when playing DGA. Either discard their removal and stick a bob. Protect a bob with mom. Get 2 for 1's with Tidehollow, SFM, BoB. Mana Denial with thalia, vindicate, and waste.

Sure you can do a lot of these things in a Rock deck, play GSZ with utility, but I think the game plan Is a lot more focused with DGA. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is bad, depending on the deck you are facing.

So splashing green for sideboard hate makes sense because it involves a minimal change in the DGA gameplan while also shoring up bad matches for the deck.

If you're going to add green to the extent that he did (I mean, he has a basic Forest), you should just play Goyf and Knight.

Let me be clear, too. I'm in support of adding one Bayou to play Deathrite. It's nonessential that Deathrite exiles creatures for us though. That's a bonus, and one worth the small splash. I like him because he accelerates, while providing reach. That's where his true strength shows through most of the time.

Deadguy Ale

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

Currently trying out CalebD's Hero of Bladehold. It's been really good at applying pressure in the early to mid-game, which has only been done with Batterskull in the past. The discard spells are being tested in different numbers right now, but Cabal Therapy has still been the strongest. CalebD also suggested the removal of Wasteland, but I think he is wrong. The card can just flat out win you the game. And its still a colorless land in a deck with quite a few colorless symbols that also abuses DRS. It's not a card on the chopping block for me.

The sideboard is really good, if I do say so myself. Haha :tongue: Those are all cards I've wanted dearly at one time or another in relevant match ups. Zealous Persecution is my personal favorite, and it has performed as a one-sided WoG as often as Perish.

@JadeOberg

I don't see a deck full of card advantage (souls, blossom, sfm, bob, therapy) as an "inferior" deck. I usually play the rock, but sometimes I switch to dga, and while both decks have different strenghts/weaknesses, many hard MUs for rock are really easy for DGA.
In fact, if I would play in a larger tournament, I'd rather go with DGA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@JadeOberg

I don't see a deck full of card advantage (souls, blossom, sfm, bob, therapy) as an "inferior" deck. I usually play the rock, but sometimes I switch to dga, and while both decks have different strenghts/weaknesses, many hard MUs for rock are really easy for DGA.
In fact, if I would play in a larger tournament, I'd rather go with DGA.

---

I was referring to DGA relative to the decks in the DTB section, not specifically compared to the Rock. I agree that DGA definitely has its +/- matchups, but it doesn't have nearly the success that the DTB do. Optimistically I hope that this is because hardly anybody plays DGA, but if you look at the data, you have a better chance of winning a large tournament with blue in your deck.

It would be awesome to see DGA as even 5% of the Meta of a huge tournament to see the results it would put up, instead of just 2 or 3 people jamming it.