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Here's What i'm starting with, what do you guys think?
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 REB/Pyroblast (Or is swords just better?)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
9 Blue Fetches
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 REB Maindeck seems a bit excessive. I would run 1 max, and then play some removal/utility spells.
I have been working with the following list (it's been quite promising!). I like dropping rabblemaster in the late game, solid card that does solid stuff, though the black version with tombstalker might be better. My philosophy of the deck is that we should play cards that are strong when dropped right before or right after a standstill. My personal jury is still out on whether rabblemaster is better than tombstalker. It has been pretty decent.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
1 Trickbind
3 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
Since this deck kind of revolves around resolving a huge threat and protecting it, any thoughts on the new Thing in Ice? Just kind of a thought:
4 Delver
3 Dreadnought
3 Thing in Ice
2 Tombstalker
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Misdirectionu
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
2 Murderous Cut
3 Disfigure
18 land
@megadeus
The dreadnought is how the deck goes over the top, but it is just as content to play (and win) like delver. The main difference is how we choose to fight equipment, and that we're one of the only decks that should be using stifle. A 1-mana stone rain isn't good enough, which is why we use flip-jace to recast, resulting in a 12/12 trampler. It should be noted that "this deck kind" is being applied to a family of decks whose similarity can end as low as 16/75 cards [brainstorm, FoW, dreadnought, stifle]. It is generally true though that most want it to live and turn sideways.
As far as Thing in the Ice goes, it probably belongs in a dreadnought list before any other legacy deck; but even here it seems lackluster. It's especially awkward with standstill and doesn't win a game through a chalice, for example...if I'm spamming spells into a chalice, I want Stormchaser Mage's prowess or young pyro tokens, not a turn of 8-power unblockability. There's certainly fun to be had with counter removal, but Hex Parasite has a cmc issue, leaving you with the black thalia (Vampire Hexmage) - at which point we're thawing the wrong card.
Looking at the rest of the list, you probably want 6 slots between ponder and standstill, at most. Non-modal maindeck removal is one of the worst things you can do in eternal formats; it has to be something you'd want to use on yourself (such as StP to gain 12) or able to kill opponent (such as bolt). There's not a lot of great black bi-modal removal...about the best is Lose Hope + Sultai Emissary, or something like Dimir Charm. As far as blue bi-modal removal goes, you're looking at things like the Reality Shift plan. Assume all removal [that you don't want to use on your own guys] to be dead draws vs each new opponent.
I'd say it's pretty absurd to wipe the board with Ponder/Brainstorm as your 4th spell for TITI and drop Standstill after that. Not to say that I would slot TITI to the same deck with Dreadnought, but I could definitely see it played with Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Your other points, I'm having difficulties to follow, as to me you are listing a bunch unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy. :)
But if someone wants to build a deck with TITI, I would start with Snapcasters and the basic Factory+Standstill package. The deck could actually look quite similar to DreadStill, just not as aggressive.
If Thing in the Ice is dropped turn 2, it's not flipping for another 2 turns. With Standstill you want to cast it right after a threat resolves; the longer you wait, the worse it becomes. The board wipe into standstill seems great, but a ton of creatures in legacy have ETB effects you don't necessarily want to re-up. I'm much more in favor of dropping flip-jace into standstill the next turn, his +1 ability is quite oppressive there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
The "unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy" have everything to do with non-UR lists. The point here is not the cards themselves, so much as the lessons you can take from those that play at the edge of the mechanics of the game - namely that maindeck removal (that only is there to remove enemy creatures...that might not even exist) is really bad idea. Spending those slots on bi-modal removal or controlling the stack, while relying on dreadnought to lock up the ground war, should be considered higher yield slot investments.
In Megadeus' list with TITI, all the non-factory creatures are terrible vs JTMS. Add to this the lack of ways to realistically win through x=1 chalice, and those 5 removal slots are much better off as a mixture of hex parasites and vampire hexmages. While those synergize with TITI, why aren't you just using Dark Depths? Alternatively, why aren't they just 5 counterspells?
The issue with playing dreadnought from the delver mindset, is that you're reading TITI and not seeing what it is really being used for. Sure, you can potentially board wipe into a standstill...but TITI is much more about finesse and holding an instant in hand. The board state you are manufacturing is one where TITI has 2 counters remaining, then this happens:
-cast dreadnought
-stifle (1 ice counter remains)
-they counter stifle
-you brainstorm (no ice counters remain) -> wipe the board returning dreadnought to hand, resolve brainstorm.
Why the fuck would I play my dreadnought when I'm about to transform and board wipe into a 7/8
Dreadnought decks are not about reading cards, we're in the business of understanding them. You're playing dreadnought in that scenario b/c you don't actually care if it resolves and is stifled into play - but your opponent does, and that's what matters. If they let you have the 12/12 trampler protected at all points from all (non-kgrip) removal, they won't win. If they cash in their counterspell on stifle, dreadnought comes right back to hand and you're bashing for 7 with TITI - that and you have an extra card in hand to shuffle away with brainstorm if you so choose. If they leave the dreadnought alone, maybe next turn we slam standstill (which doesn't remove ice counters)...maybe they try to kill dreadnought here with standstill on the stack, maybe we'll just fire off brainstorm here and have our 7/8 under standstill anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
We don't play simple magic, none of this "you cast card A so I cast card B to kill it."
I'm taking the plunge into this deck. Dreadnought has fascinated ever since I started playing, and Stifle is one of my all-time favorite cards. However, cost is an issue, and even though I'm liquidated a bunch of Modern staples to get back into Legacy, it isn't nearly enough to get blue duals. So the plan is to go mono-blue. I'd like some feedback on this idea, and the tentative maindeck list I'm working on. If anyone else has experience with a Monoblue build, I'd be very open to advice.
Monoblue Dreadstill
Lands-22
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
16 Islands
Creatures - 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
Artifacts - 3
2 Vedalkin Shackles
Other -
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Void Snare
Total - 60 cards
I figure Shackles might be a great card under a Standstill, since it offers the chance to build up the island count. I lose Lavamancer, but it does give me the ability to swipe threats, which potentially helps keep Abrupt Decay off my Dreadnoughts, or at least gives me another wincon if the Dreadnought gets Decay'd.
First things first Artifacts = 3, but only 2x shackles listed (is there a second artifact)?Quote:
Originally Posted by cartoonist
Easiest way to splash competitive colors is Polluted Delta + Misty Rainforest -> Bayou. If possible go to 7-8 Fetch (4 delta, 3-4 rainforest) and bump Wasteland and Factory to 4x. Tentatively 20 lands:
-4x Mishra's Factory (it's important to note that you don't have to play factory or standstill, and 16-18 lands is more than enough)
-4x Wasteland
-4x Polluted Delta
-3x Misty Rainforest
-2x Island
-1x Swamp
-2x Bayou
Shackles coming out, Void Snare out, Counterspell out, Gitaxian Probe down to a 2x (or removed). Assuming Gitaxian down to a 2x we have: 2 (lands) + 3 (shackles) + 5 (from others category) = 10x slots. I'd consider:
-6x Creature Slots, things like: 4x DRS + 2x Flip-Jace, 3x DRS + 3x Confidant. Consider a 1x Tasigur or Angler
-1x Torpor Orb
-3x Meta-Game slots like countermagic, misdirection effects, phasing effects
-Don't run decay main.
-I wouldn't go below 7 ways to get a dreadnought into play when running the playset.
I don't know what your price point is but Bayou will be the most accessible good dual, and even stopping at 1 is probably fine (in that case island ->3 or misty ->4). Regardless of going outside of mono-U or not, you're going to want the 7-8 fetches named above - otherwise you can't really afford to play brainstorm over a card like Preordain. With Delver/Dreadnought, your next best creature in mono-U is probably waiting for Thing in the Ice (and I really doubt this card settles above $10). Continuing with mono-U, in the 6 slots for creatures, this would become 4x ponder + 2x flip-jace or 2x additional meta-game slots.
I do have sets of Strands and Deltas, and a pair of Mistys, so I'll tweak the land base to include some of them. I can't believe I overlooked that. Damn, I've got Legacy-rust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I honestly hadn't thought about a BUG build before. I might be able to swing a Bayou. The only duals I currently have are sets of Scrubs and Plateaus, and I just can't see those kinds of build working, especially since I don't have Tarns. But I'd definitely proxy to test that idea, and see if it's something I'd like to pursue.
Budget-wise, it's basically Forces/Wastelands. I wouldn't be able to afford new fetches/duals until much later, so I'm pretty committed to mono-blue.
I had considered TITI, but it just works against Standstill so much. I might consider a pair, to try to take advantage of broken Standstills, but not a set.
Strand and Delta + Scrubland is workable at least. You're wheeling around black so in previous suggestion move all Misty to Strand and Bayou to Scrub x2. Now you're looking at Esper Dreadstill, and that's still fine. You've preserved black which is all you need for DRS (green mode doesn't really matter), and in white you get some insta-win sideboard cards (RiP, Thalia, Karakas, Stony Silence). As far as mainboard white cards you get Monastery Mentor and Hushwing Gryf.Quote:
Originally Posted by cartoonist
There is certainly nothing wrong with moving from Dreadstill to something looking more like Esper Mentor or Dread n' Taxes (EoT tap vial on 1, hold priority, cast Hushwing Gryf, if they don't counter put down dreadnought and swing 14. this build does work better with karakas though). You'll have some strange hands every so often given the need to access basic island first, but as long as you max out around 4x DRS and 2-3 white cards it should be fine. Moving to 8 fetches that can all grab basic island and scrubland, and half that can find basic swamp seems manageable. DRS and/or Confidant are very good in dreadnought decks that don't use red, generally best to stretch colors for them.
Definitely don't let lack of blue duals stop you from experimenting, the deck is quite competitive and a ton of fun. Additionally playing non-UR versions will give you a much better mastery of mechanics and the nuances of priority. If you're going to be a dedicated dreadnought player, you'll find the lens through which we view magic to be very beneficial to determining what new cards you should invest in - and dreadnought can span a ton of archetypes.
is hard play only U but i see your points!Quote:
Originally Posted by cartoonist
you should play Repeal instead of Void snare and you shouldn't play delver since is so easy to beat, instead you should play Vendilion wich help you to protect you dreadnought!
one last thing...play Spell Snare because help you against too many problems, like: tarmo, tourach, balance, Young pyromancer and so on...
all the best, and good luck!
Ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas Dreadnought lovers!
Decided to go old school in honour of my first weekly Legacy tournament in six months and last one before Christmas. Of course I played Dreadstill and had a ball.
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
Sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
R1 v Elves Win 2-1
On the draw to start, and I don't see a single counterspell before getting NO'd out.
G2 I bring in Needles, Lavamancer, EE's and start with a T1 Lavamancer, which is good enough to go all the way.
G3 back on the draw, I open Double Lavamancer so the Decay'd one is soon replaced and starts doing work to keep the Elves at bay. He's able to jam a fair few little critters, though, and starts pressuring my life total, forcing me to start doming him with Lavamancer while swinging with Delver. He swings me to one then activates DRS to kill me. Fortunately, I have a Stifle to scupper his plans and manage to swing and Lavamancer over for lethal the next turn. Phew!
R2 v Shardless BUG Win 2-1
On the draw again, and get BUG'd by double Shardless into double Decay on my Delver and Lavamancer. I Brainstorm into StifleNought a turn too late.
G2 on the play, I use my Lavamancer to keep his little creatures at bay and counter his Tarmogoyfs. Eventually I get StifleNought while his Liliana is at one counter and force him to block with Strix, DRSx2, and Shardlessx2. He goes to three, but I have a bolt to finish him.
G3 on the draw, he starts with double Visions, which play great into the double Standstill hand I have. I see a third Standstill and draw nine cards while he draws none thanks to Stifle, Stifle, and FoW. He graciously concedes during turns with an empty hand to my five cards and Mishra's Factory.
R3 v Dredge Loss 0-2
I have no Dredge hate and he has really good hands. G2 I could have dealt with double discard but he has TRIPLE discard spell in his opener and a dredger to get going. I can't recover.
R4 v UBr Tezz Win 2-0
My unfortunate opponent mulligans to five both games, which isn't good against a Stifle deck. I hit all his fetchlands and Delver kills him.
Dreadstill is still bloody fun! But I still think my changes are suboptimal and my good friend Yan's list and sideboard plan is the best. MVP was Grim Lavamancer, that thing did so much work for me. I am still slowly pimping this deck, but after picking it up again I think I want to get foiling a little quicker. Only all the expensive stuff to go :(
I'm not sure I follow how you're Stifling his Visions but he's triggering your Standstill. Can you elaborate a little better? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding how the triggers may stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
If it was 3 Vision I'd understand. This had to be spread out over multiple turns, since you can't play a Standstill under Standstill.
Well it's the using Stifle to prevent the opponent drawing while drawing your 3 off Standstill's trigger, unless I'm reading that wrong.
The issue is that if you allow the trigger to resolve, so that the Visions triggers the Standstill, you are past the point that you can Stifle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
Hence why I am confused. If you're Stifling the Visions suspend trigger then you're just triggering your own Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Sorry, my reporting sucked. Thanks go out to lots of whisky for that one. I FoW'd the one I had a Standstill down for and Stifled the ones I didn't. So it was FoW (when Standstill was down), Stifle (when Standstill wasn't down), Stifle (again when Standstill wasn't down), then play some more Standstills.
What's a good direction to go with this deck?
Some rambling thoughts I am going through.
I am done with grixis delver but I like the tempo aspect, I wouldn't mind running wastelands. trinket mage seems good but slow, but that toolbox.
Splashing red gives access to some good removal and pyroblast.
White doesn't really add anything I am interested in that blue and red doesn't cover (vapor for Marit Lage if it's a problem).
Black offers DRS which is just a strong card also makes casting trinket mage more feasible, from there I could go with cabal therapy + git probe, and black has some good anti D&T tools.
I don't think green offers anything I remotely care about. MAYBE Goyf and sylvan library?
Would torpor orb be terrible? maybe as a 2 of, if I were to use my stifles on fetchlands?
I also like the appeal of countertop because legacy.
Split of grindstone painter servant as maybe a transformation sideboard? Both decks hate abrupt decay, paints everything blue for Force and Misdirection. (or white for sulfur elemental if i go red splash, but there probably isn't enough room for all these shenanigans)
White offers Enlightened Tutor, Hushwing Gryff and Mother of Runes.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
I think Torpor Orb is actually pretty strong, because it doesn't produce card disadvantage like Stifle (on Dreadnought) and stops some opposing creatures.
Where are the remaining 9 cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
Far out, I am terrible. Another Ux fetchland, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Mishra's Factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by bizdoin
I don't know if I would want to be in any other colour except Red. The reach from Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer and the strength of Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast against the Blue meta are winners in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
First off, nice work vs Tezz without any phasing cards; I don't think that can be considered a good matchup without them. Against Dredge though you have both the ability to race and the best Bridge killer in legacy in one card: Dreadnought. Running red cards + Standstill isn't helping with speed vs yard-centric linear combo, but I've never found yard hate to be a worthwhile use of sideboard space. In theory the best yard hate would be Relic of Progenitus but this is primarily because of its anti-Goyf implications...still not really a healthy use of deck space as both Noxious Revival and Surgical Extraction feed more directly into the mana denial/stack dominance which Stiflenought relies upon.
Looking at the maindeck I don't understand a U-Sea (just for EE's 3rd color??), and your threats (outside Factory) are all 1-drops...and I'm not seeing CMC diversification vis a vis Illusionary Mask. Spell Pierce is fine, but you probably care more about a card like Spell Snare tagging CB/Goyf/Chalice. With your list you're using 23 lands (tallying initial omissions), which is probably about 2 more than you want to be without cards like 3-4 cmc walkers.
The sideboard is halfway confused, there are the 7 pieces of counter-magic (which are great) and then there's 4x sub-optimal cards addressing problems that don't really exist (the creatures), and then the 4 slots that don't really accomplish much (the artifacts). The fourth Lavamancer is fine against non-white (i.e. DRS decks), you're overloaded on countermagic such that Clique is a bit egregious, and Dreadnought decks are already in a uniquely great position to dismantle decks like DnT on the ETB axis as opposed to Sulfur Elemental (which fixes a problem that 12/12 colorless trampling already did). Your list is almost entirely 1-drop threats so it's really only trying to resolve EE on 2 or 0 (for 1+ colorless mana)? There's all kinds of things you can Pithing Needle, but it seems like you'd be better served by JTMS or Dack here.
There's plenty of finesse cards, but being that you're on red I'd suggest cards like Crash/Shattering Spree/Ancient Grudge (U-Sea to Trop)/Smash to Smithereens, Slice and Dice, Submerge, Surgical Extraction, and value creatures (flip-Jace or SCM). If you want to really send a message Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex, Set Adrift, Sapphire Charm, Grip of Phyresis, Crucible, or Blood Moon would all be fun options. I would also again heavily consider Illusionary Mask and Torpor Orb in the 75.
@chaosjace Dreadnought decks generally want to select away from slow cards and beneficial ETB. We really get ahead by evincing the very old mindset of stand behind your creatures (no evasion in the form of ETB value, moreso with this hilariously suspect Recruiter of the Guard from our perspective). We also play like a Delver deck, but attack the pseudo-mirror (real Delver decks) with the mana-screw asymmetry from our basic lands. U/W Dreadnought does a lot of unique things but it's probably the weakest variant (although it's also the most randomly hateful and flash-based variant). U/B (i.e. DRS) Dreadnought variants are the most competitive in my experience and are heavily favored versus DnT without any hate cards. U/G Dreadnought will generally revert to U/Bg; a heavier green strat with the current card pool is probably better served by using Thing in the Ice + DRS....if R&D screws up though U/G core with black is the best poised to exploit mechanics in the most unfair ways. CounterTopDreadnought is fine, but just like StoneBlade your playing a strictly worse control deck than miracles as measured by overall win %. Legacy Two-Card Monty, while fun, isn't competitive. If you're using Welder, I would stay far away from Dreadnought and Intuition and instead opt of Entomb and new Daretti (though even this is probably just a more disruptable Tezz-flavored deck).
@Sco0ter I would count Hushwing Gryff and maybe E-Tutor. The other cards are Karakas, Vial, StP (anti-Tendrils that doubles as removal, in the same way Bolt attacks life total but doubles as removal if you have to), Ethersworn Canonist, and Mentor. There are others, but these are most likely to make a maindeck difference played like Dread'n'Taxes. Alternatively U/W is a CounterTopMentor-ish featuring Dreadnoughts. As with U/G, if R&D screw up there are legacy-costed U/W shenanigans to be had, but not with the current card pool and they would not be as unfair as U/G.
@Fox.
USea is for EE @ 3 and nothing else. I'm not convinced it's great. Yan doesn't like it, and I'm beginning to agree with him. It screwed me in a couple of games because I opened with it and therefore didn't have access to Red mana.
I am rusty versus Dredge, I think I could have played better and perhaps taken the first game. But I agree that the deck can do a lot v. Dredge even without GY hate.
I'm not sure what you mean about threat diversification. Could you explain?
Spell Pierce is very strong. It hits CB and CotV early game, which is when you want to counter them. Goyf is, admittedly, a problem if you don't have a FoW or a Dreadnought to trample over it, but I feel that Pierce strengthens you against a lot more high-impact cards than Snare.
I should only be on 21 lands, I agree, I put the list together at the last minute and didn't count them properly.
I agree about Clique, it shouldn't be in there. In its place should be the third Lavamancer from the main deck, making the maindeck and sideboard as follows:
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Lightning Bolt
Sideboard (15)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Misdirection
I disagree about the artifacts not accomplishing much. Needle and EE are versatile cards and are relevant in a large amount of matchups. I board them in and use them all the time. I would sorely miss them if I didn't have them and can't really think of anything that I could replace them with that would have their impact across all matchups.
I also disagree about this deck being able to dismantle D&T on the stack. From playing the matchup many times, your stack-based disruption alone is not sufficient to win. You need cards like Sulfur Elemental, Grim Lavamancer, and Engineered Explosives to interact on the battlefield and gain value.
The predominance of CMC1 threats doesn't affect your ability to EE as much as you would think. As you say, I most often EE for 0 (CotV, tokens) or 2 (CB, Goyf). If I am wanting to EE for 1 I am not usually playing my Delvers/Noughts/Mancers out until after I've done so.
The off-color dual is probably wrong by itself, but in terms of what you can represent with it, I think Trop is probably better. With Black it could mean Massacre, Snuff Out, or more absurd things like Outbreak, Fire Covenant...and I guess hard-cast Surgical. Trop can mean Ancient Grudge, Reverent Silence, I'm sure there's a couple more...importantly though if opponent sees Forest and has Submerge in sideboard, they will bring it in, and you'd be siding out Trop vs any deck that would potentially have that in sideboard (almost all Submerge users should be Delver). Are you looking for an effect (or the representation of an effect) which can turn StP life into a powerful response or are you looking to pick up the ability to attack enchantments? To go back to the off-dual only for EE, what 3 drop are realistically looking to combat, given that you don't care about Blood Moon? Is being able to kill a 3-drop worth jeopardizing how you get ahead in the pseudo-mirrors (basic land asymmetry ensuring you reach the 2 mana mark)?
I'm not talking so much about threat diversification but rather about cmc manipulation. You have 4x Factory and around 10x 1-drop threats; Illusionary Mask costs 2 itself and changes their cmc to 0 allowing you to ignore Chalice on 1. This card is only currently playable if you run Dreadnought as it is an engine piece. I guess you could also look at a 1x Cavern of Souls given the 8x human count of your 75 (potentially more if you wanted SCM or flip-Jace) and past that only one other creature type (dreadnought) and the mostly uncounterable 2cmc Trickbind to accompany it.
As far as Spell Pierce goes, you're naming 3 cards Snare hits all game long. Of course Pierce hits other cmcs, but Snare will more decisively answer the main reasons your deck can lose games. The debate over these two options really comes down to what you expect in a given meta; just keep in mind though that under Standstill they will be making land drops and drawing Pierce at any point isn't necessarily going to be effective.
What I see as most concerning with sideboard space on Sulfur Elemental is that a large part of why we play a Delver-style deck with Dreadnoughts is to invalidate decks trying to grind out little advantages with equipment over time and to avoid build-order losses due to Stifle use without goldfishing application. Unless you really need to address Monastery Mentor, you can just drop a Torpor Orb and a deck like DnT pretty much stops working - suddenly their deck is 4x StP vs your counter wall and deck manipulation. Yes Sulfur Elemental will kill up to 15 of their creatures (4x Mother, 4x Thalia, 4x Flicker, 3x Recruiter) but those cards aren't all that problematic outside Flickerwisp...but if they have to tap lands to cast them (i.e. if you dealt with Vial or they didn't have it), they're quite unlikely to win. Sulfur Elemental tries to fix a board state that is unlikely to happen, and still probably loses if they have that board state and an attached equipment (which is likely if they have gotten to that point). Consider also that many times in that matchup that you will actively want Thalia on the field.
You can play the value game, drawing cards that are mostly reactive, but Dreadnought is best when it's ignoring problems while advancing its path to victory. Decks like this [self 2-for-1] can't sustain that much removal for the sake of removal as it creates dead hands. Cards like EE and Needle can alleviate tempo, but they don't create it; and that's not a good combination when you definitely don't have planeswalkers, but the opponent presumably does.
Fatal Push is a very interesting card...I can see the U/B variant making a comeback with
Dark Confidant/Push. Also Grixis Dreadstill might be worth looking into again. Push is insane I think
we might want to visit this option. Wasteland, Fetches, and Dreadnought empty cast all trigger it.
I also like the Eldrazi mimic with Dreadnought even though nobody probably will lol. He can smash for
12 or enable us a Dreadnought like stifle does. Just some thoughts I had...
-Rood
There are a couple of issues with Fatal Push here, but the most important is that it doesn't do anything (unless opponent changes that fact by playing a target). Much of the strength of U/R Dreadnought is that one hit is generally game over with Bolt/recast (SCM or Flip-Jace). Now supposing we're cutting back on Bolts for Push, we're definitely picking up percentage points vs Goyf...but I think you get into a scenario of your deck running DRS and probably Grim Lavamancer too (no Delver). Given that, now you're running 1-2x Badlands with Daze in the 75? There is the need to power out basic Island early on (you'd be running Island and Swamp x1 each, but never Mountain) so a plan of Volcs and Seas only is antagonistic to how the deck wins (i.e ensuring two correctly colored mana early). You also lose a sideboard slot to Tropical Island (DRS) presumably.
Alternatively you go with U/B core and it's not really excusable to omit a DRS and Delver mix, so why are we using red duals over Trop (especially if we've replaced/trimmed Bolt)? There are other issues, but confounding the color identity in three directions is a build-order issue for a DreadStill deck. Picking up points vs Goyf (i.e. Fatal Push) doesn't count for much if you're simultaneously playing into the Wasteland plan pretty much all Goyf decks run. It's probably also important to note here that if you run Dreadnought in a deck with say 4x Bolt + 4x Push (or 4x Decay + 4x Push), you're just not going to win games through such dead hand potential.
Now you could really go all-in on U/B where there are no Trops or just 1x solely for DRS activations, but you're never beating miracles and you lost access to Pyroblast. There's a deck there, but I don't know that it's necessarily using Standstill anymore. I think it's some Badlands with DRS/Grim as the direction you're going in (moreso if you're considering Dark Confidant which eats into Delver's total spell count), without losing Dreadnought or Standstill...but even this feels like really finely tuning a deck that wanted to stay with the old U/R plan.
Mimic is a card that mostly goes with Ancient Tomb (meaning Chalice for sheer win percentage, thus no Dreadnoughts); without Tomb you're using Trickbind. Now the new vehicle Consulate Dreadnought would have been worth talking about if it had 12 power, alas it was only a near miss. R&D missed an opportunity there given that they're already willing to print the 12 power trick on a 2-drop, because Consulate with 12 power means a non-sol land piece of tech - and a much safer thing to print than Mimic ever was.
Doing a rough draft of your Grixis Dreadstill you're talking about 21 lands, 3-4 Standstill, and between 16-18 actual creatures (let's say up to 2 are blue), and now you have 20 slots left over at best. Given that you run FoW, pretty much all the rest of these have to be blue, but maybe it's ok to squeeze in 3-4 Fatal Push? The color restrictions are pretty tight, and only 20 spells to flip Delver largely precludes its inclusion.
Hit up another weekly with UR DreadStill. 3-1.
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 LIghtning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Misdirection
R1 v Merfolk, L 0-2
G1 I mull to 5 on the draw and opp. goes T1 Island Vial T2 Island Standstill. I don't win that one. G2 I he lands a standstill but I have Grim Lavamancer to keep at his creatures. Unfortunately, he gets a TNN I can't counter and I don't find a Dreadnought in time to race.
R2 v Miracles. Win 2-0.
G1 he mulls to five and does nothing much. G2 my Pyroblasts show up to protect my Delver and I overwhelm him.
R3 v RUG Delver. Win 2-0.
G1 on the play I drop a Delver and protect the living shit out of it for the win. G2 My REBs show up to take out his Delver after a mammoth counter war involving a Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, and two Dazes from him and a Spell Pierce and Force of Will from me (I had more mana). He gets a Goyf down after Bolting my Delver and things look grim, but I Brainstorm into a hand of Nought, Nought, Stifle, Trickbind. I use Stifle when he is tapped out from casting a second Goyf the next turn, which is just as well as he has double Spell Pierce in hand when I cast Trickbind on the second Nought. He has to read Trickbind... Double Nought was amazing! He didn't see Nought in G1 so I didn't have to deal with those damned Ancient Grudges they invariably board in. Fortunate.
R4 v Miracles. Win 2-1.
G1 I grind with a unbuffed Mishra's Factory (couldn't keep the Delvers around) but he stabilises at two life and has JTMS, CB, and Top to my nothing. I scoop. G2 I bring in the business and get busy protecting a Delver by Stifling and Trickbinding his attempts to miracle Terminus and EtA. REB and Pyroblast show up to assist with keeping CB off the table. It succeeds. G3, although he opens with Top (like he did in G1 AND G2) he appears to be stuck on lands so my Stifles go after all his fetches. I take care of a few Terminus and attempted Snapcaster Mages with my countermagic and get there.
Not bad, beating Miracles twice and RUG Delver. Losing to Merfolk is understandable after my mull. I think that matchup is unfavourable for us unless you open Nought, which I didn't.
REB and Pyroblast are the shit against Miracles. Flusterstorm, EE, and Pithing Needle are also normally fantastic, but I didn't draw them.
The deck is getting foiler. Got a Scourge foil Stifle last night and hopefully will pick up my third Scourge foil Grim Lavamancer at prerelease this weekend. A playset of foil Delvers is also floating around Brisbane so I'm on the hunt for those too. Traded up my Rev Volcs for UL Volcs two weeks ago, too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
Isn't Fatal Push bad news for Dreadnought decks? Do you we really want to play removal like that (or removal in general)? Most often Dreadnought just tramples over their creatures anyway.
I am more concerned that Push harms us, rather than we can benefit from it.
Push replaces Disfigures in BUG boards since most of the time, Decay is all around better in the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
It shines the most in Grixis lists, since they had worse removal (but still generally splashed green to Decay anyway), so maybe now they have Bolts and a couple of Pushes, but they still need to break Counterbalances and kill Equipment, so Decay still will see play.
Removal count is upped or gets a little more effective, but again, We also have a shit-ton of counters.
-Matt
Fatal push is pretty bad news for Dreadnought, particularly with Grixis now having on-colour removal that isn't damage based. At least it can be countered, unlike Decay. The reach Bolt provides, and the sideboard options Red provides, is, on balance, probably more valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
So with Top being banned, I was thinking about how to possibly improve this deck. I see its a Red splash now. But what if we made BUGStill. And utilized the new Plainswalker Nissa, Steward of Elements. She 'draws' lands and Dreadnaught and other creatures you may have with low CC.
Here is a VERY rough list I was putting together yesterday. I included a new fun card to help the replacement of Top (trickery charm) instant speed reorder the top 4 of your deck.
Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 DRS
Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Trickery Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Jace TMS
Lands(22)
5 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
7 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
I don't know if the mana base is right, there were 4 wastelands in there before (changed them to the duals). I don't know if maybe you want to shave some of the 4 of's and get some more permission or draw (like ponder or spell pierce). And I don't know if trickey charm is what I would put in there but it gives you a look at top 4 for counterbalance vs 3 or less.
Here was a list of other possible instant speed Scry-ish effects that possibly could be in this deck for some utility as well as synergy with counterbalance:
Opt
Lose Hope
Condescend
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Natural Selection
Telling Time
Trickery Charm
Just Brewin and Deadstill is one of my favorite decks and looking to update it without top.
Honestly, with top getting banned I don't see any reason to play counterbalance anymore. I'd just recommend regular counterspells; spell pierce, spell snare, fow, counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by claulis
I agree; I'll be posting my Grixis list shortly.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
To add on to what @MrFrowny_ said, there are more powerful top-of-deck manipulation effects specifically pertaining to Dreadnoughts. An attractively-costed Call of the Wild has never really been the tool we're looking for.
Some loose general rules for Dreadnought decks are:
-any Charm must be immediately preceded by the word Vision (possibly Sapphire, but that's some next level strategy involving swaps in controller)
-for every Dreadnought you plan to run, you need 2-2.5 cheating effects
-we're a blue, mana denial deck [meaning Daze/Wasteland] and will generally avoid running a double off-color spell [Decay] particularly now that CB has been reduced to the same problem card it always was, but is back to looking for enablers [i.e. largely unplayable by opponents].
22 lands, particularly without any copies of Wasteland (+/- Factory) is far too high even with Standstill. U/B lists generally select towards 18-19 land and play the Delver-style game. We're ideally looking for 7-8x turn 1 threats, and certainly wouldn't trim DRS down to 3 copies in your list.
If you're using Nissa, you've already hit the three mana mark; using her +0 ability is certainly card advantage but the real issue has always been more about having mana to cast, cheat, and preferably protect a Dreadnought. In your list you only have 3x 1/2s and 4x 2/1s which might be around to protect Nissa with a chump block while she goes +2 to set up a +0 for a free Dreadnought...that still needs to have the trigger voided...and you have exactly 4 copies of Stifle and no potential to recast these.
Looking at your current list's non-dedication to Dreadnought, we're probably looking more at a deck that wants Death's Shadow and some Thoughtseize/Git Probe if we're truly intent on using Nissa + CB. I'm not really touching on Nissa + CB viability (I think @MrFrowny_ has put up some good alternatives), but generally I'd assume it's best to be either a Standstill deck or a CB deck.
What's odd/interesting in your list is the 11x creature total. Right now in Dreadnought decks it's becoming increasingly harder to run Delver as we're generally finding ourselves wanting 16x (and perhaps as much as 18x) creature spells. What's really nice about Nissa is she's the opposite of Delver of Secrets, rewarding us for higher creature counts; focus more on that novel aspect moving forward in your brew. Also perhaps look at cards that use the manifest mechanic if you want to go more in-depth on Nissa topdeck manipulation.
Disclaimer: these comments relate to UR lists.
I don't know if you need two to two-and-a-half cheating cards for each Dreadnought. I've run successfully in the past with 4 Stifle and 2 Trickbind, as have a few others.
I agree, however, that 22 land is too much. I generally run 21, as follows:
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ux fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
and then board out one Waste or one Factory depending on the matchup to go to 20 lands post board.
I think that perhaps with Counterbalance getting banned people will switch from Abrupt Decay to Fatal Push, although perhaps not for a month or so. I don't see why you would want to keep running Decay if you can get the same effect for one less mana. If that happens, Dreadstill gets pushed back into the spotlight as a solid deck choice because Fatal Push is removal we can actually counter and are not forced to Divert or Misdirect. Looking forward to seeing how the meta pans out.
But did you run Snapcasters or flip-jace alongside those; they add to the virtual count.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman