[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Last Sunday i played again with the list from my last post, but this time with -2 Inquisition -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Sylvan Library +4 Stifle

I really stomped Deadguy Ale and Merfolk and drawed against Stoneblade( in the last extra round i had Thrun out and he was at 6 life and no solutions.. so one more round...) and RUG Tempo (we only had 5 min for the last game) .

Both draws were also because i'm too slow with this deck sometimes.

I lost to Nic Fit (Explorer Rock). I really fear this deck. If they start with Explorer, next round cabal therapy there's no way to win... I simply don't have enough Stifles for this matchup.

About the decklist.. i would play one more Lili instead of the Edict and 4 Ponder.

Lili ist great against everyting because she forces aggro to attack her and destroys hands of the control and combo player and Ponder just let the deck work better.
Also i think cutting a Wasteland isn't a good idea.

Hymn and Daze are freaking good in this deck, I never want less than 4

So, any idea against the RUG Tempo decks and the Nic Fit decks? My Area is full of those decks.

Squirrel, I suppose by "stomping merfolk" you mean that you won a match where you had a good draw and your opponent a bad one (and probably made some mistakes), because the Merfolk matchup is and will always be a terrible one for Team America.

How to bet RUG Tempo... well I think RUG is a better tempo deck than TA and has a slight edge, because they have more removal and reach to the dome for the last points of damage in the race. In terms of cards you can run: pointed discard and of course Loam is very powerful. Pointed discard does not have an optimal synergy in TA, which is why it is often cut...

If you want to have a real edge over RUG (especially the new breed without nimble mongoose) you have to
1) play a lot of lands
2) play a lot of removal
3) play pointed discard + hymn
4) have a better late game with snapcaster mage & jace

Lists and advise for that can be found in the thread which is certainly more DTB than TA: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Control/page4

I have been testing two builds of TA that seem to be just about equally successful, but with some variations that alter the way they tend to play out.

Here's the core of the deck that is consistent in both:
20 Lands (9 fetch, 7 duals, 4 wastes)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Maelstrom Pulse (arguable, but has always been great for me)

Here's where they diverge:

Aggressive Tempo Build:
4 Spell Pierce
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snuff Out

Midrange Control Build:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

In the aggressive version, we are looking to close out games as quickly as possible, hence the 4 Delvers. Snuff Out is free removal, and we are less concerned with our life total and of course aren't going to be flashing it back. Spell Pierce supports this strategy by shielding your creatures from removal long enough to deal 20 damage, whereas Hymn tends to push games more into the mid-to-late game and isn't always guaranteed to hit the Swords to Plowshares in opponent's hands. This version is easily capable of racing aggro decks, and still has game vs. combo and control. Given the lower curve, this build could also probably run on 18-19 lands and fit in a few more utility cards -- however I have not tested this and have liked the consistency and fewer mulligans that 20 lands gives.

The first version is pretty much black Canadian Thresh, and perhaps the reach granted by Lightning Bolt is worth it and this should just be RUG... However, Snuff Out has just been insane in testing, and Tombstalker is a fantastic finisher. Also, black SB options are pretty crucial in some matchups.

The midrange version still plays pretty similarly, but its ideal goal is to cripple the opponent's hand via playing a turn 2 Hymn and sometimes even flashing Hymn back on turn 4. Snapcaster provides a source of card advantage, and the removal options reflect its inclusion. This version typically goes into the later game, and has a few bombs to assist with that -- Liliana and Sylvan Library (which should possibly go in the first build as well). This version is a bit of a hybrid between traditional TA lists and BUG control (which I find to be usually too slow), and has a higher curve. I've done well with this list in real life tournament settings, but with Spell Snare being so common, I'm not so sure if leaning on Hymn and Snapcaster is such a great idea.

Of course, both decks can transform themselves somewhat with the SB and fight whatever it is your opponent is throwing at you.

I just finished 4th with this deck at a large 34 person tourney in Texas with this deck but I chose skinshifter over tarmogoyf for synergy and overall utility. I was hoping to have a discussion about the merits of skinshifter vs. tarmogoyf. This is from my tournament report discussing skinshifter:

I know its somewhat radical not to run tarmogoyf but I ask that every skeptic test it in this build and then try it in every other deck running tarmogoyf to see each has its pro's and con's. The way I evaluate the difference between the two is on three basic criteria:
1. How a creature deals with removal in the environment
A: Both tarmogoyf and skinshifter die to STP and black removal while skinshifter is worse in dealing with burn
2. How much damage it does
A: In the early game skinshifter deals more damage because he gets bigger faster. In the mid-game tarmogoyf and skinshifter are about even with skinshifter being a 4/4 trampler and tarmogoyf being a 4/5. Then in the late game if you have an artifact, enchantment or planeswalker in your graveyard then it may be a little bigger than skinshifter but throughout the tournament I seldom ever saw an artifact, enchantment or planewalker in the yard.
3. Versatility
A: Tarmogoyf is graveyard dependent while skinshifter is green mana dependent. In most instances Tarmogoyf would have been slower than skinshifter for reasons mentioned above and there was and still is alot of graveyard hate out there. Against problematic matchups with large creatures the wall effect on skinshifter was useful and bought me a few turns whereas a tarmogoyf would have just chump blocked. Also being able to fly was helpful in killing transformed delvers and vendilion cliques. The green mana was killer sometimes because people hit my green mana sources when stripping my mana base but it does help draw fire away from the black mana which is alot more of what the deck needs

Overall I feel that in general they are very similar cards with their own strengths and weaknesses but with the bad synergy between tarmogoyf and tombstalker I feel that skinshifter is a no-brainer in Team America. I think that skinshifter could be better than tarmogoyf in general but that is a far bolder statement that will take a lot of playtesting to change but in terms of personal experience I go with skinshifter.

I don't think Skinshifter is even close. Trample is nice, but what version of Team America are you playing that Tarmogoyf doesn't come down as a 3/4? Usually by the time I can play Tarmogoyf, there's a land, sorcery, and instant in the yard, and often I'll have killed or countered a creature, so he'll be a 4/5. Given that, I just don't see the advantage of having Skinshifter. The negative synergy between him and Tombstalker simply isn't as big of a deal as having a creature you have to constantly spend mana on, and can easily get killed by all the lightning bolts and chain lightnings around.

The strength of Team America has always been in maximizing your mana and playing spells with no mana. Go back to the original which ran 8 free counterspells and 4 free removal spells. Now you're suggesting a card that requires you to keep green mana open. Green is already the 3rd most important color in the deck, now you want to keep one untapped all the time to protect against chain lightning. If you want to play offense, now you need green on your turn to attack and green on their turn to defend. It's just not worth it.

Instead of thinking about it try it out. Tarmogoyf didn't look all that great either until people starting working him into some decks and seeing how good he was. I'm asking you to give that same treatment to skinshifter.

I'm not saying this from a vacuum. I've played a LOT of Team America, and I've played skinshifter in cube and in standard. I'm well aware of how the card plays, and what kind of commitment he requires to continue getting effective use out of him.

Beyond that, this is a horrible time to be playing something that dies to bolt. Lavamancer is everywhere, as is Chain. Why wouldn't you play something that comes down with 4 toughness most of the time?

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by baghdadbob

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

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Mongoose is pretty amazing against decks that run a lot of pinpoint removal as well or decks that are Snapcastering back things like StP.

That being said, I thought Mongoose is rarely played in Team America anyways?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by baghdadbob

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

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He said skinshifter, not skinrender.

Regarding skinshifter, that card is insanely worse than goyf. You literally don't want to have to commit mana to a creature aside from playing it. Goyf comes out and immediately puts on a clock or is a wall for Jace and this is all the deck wants from its creatures. Skinshifter is also horrible with bolt/lavamancer being played in all these RUG decks, which was mentioned before. If you swing with a skinshifter and attempt to pump him, they just bolt in response and he dies. Goyf is just strictly better in the TA shell.

I am all for testing new things, but Skinshifter really does not belong in the deck.

The core creatures:
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker

Utility -options-:
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique

Possible inclusions, that veer towards considering it a different deck altogether:
Dark Confidant
Delver of Secrets
Terravore
Nimble Mongoose

SB trump:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Scavenging Ooze
Sower of Temptation
Bitterblossom

Outdated/outmoded:
Werebear
Quirion Dryad
Serendib Efreet
Benthic Djinn
Lorescale Coatl
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Possessed Aven
Hypnotic Specter
Sea Drake
Nantuko Shade

I'm sorry, but Skinshifter is bad. Mono-green decks don't even play it. I'm not sure why it's even under consideration when there are many better options.

I piloted TA to 4-0.

W2-1 vs. U/W Blade
W2-0 vs. B/G Infect
W2-0 vs. Reanimator
W2-0 vs. MonoB Liliana-rack

The reanimator match I was worried about, but Stifle+Wasteland got me the game 1 victory, game 2 I boarded into LotV + Diabolic Edicts.

Stifle got me key plays vs. both JTMS and Liliana, protecting my Stalker/Goyfs at times.

I also went with 1 MD Deed over 1 MD Pulse, though I know Pulse slightly more synergistic with Delvers

This is the build I wound up with:
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Dismember
1 Go For The Throat

3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

//board
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Definite changes I'll make...
-2 spell snare
-1 Bayou

+1 Daze
+1 Stifle
+1 Fetch

Considering...
-1 Dismember
+1 Snuff Out/Ghastly Demise

-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Reanimate

Possibly 1 Snapcaster MD.

Coming from the standpoint of BUG control than TA, what disadvantage does Snapcaster have against TA? I mean I get the original premise of the deck and how it has evolved to present but there's something I'm missing to really understand what's going on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

Coming from the standpoint of BUG control than TA, what disadvantage does Snapcaster have against TA? I mean I get the original premise of the deck and how it has evolved to present but there's something I'm missing to really understand what's going on.

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well, TA is known for low mana curve. To truelu abuse snapcaster, it ups your mana curve fairly.

plus you drop Goyf or delver or most probably tombstalker(non-synergistic with Tiago). So it decreases your win clock. You also have to change around your counters as Daze is not quite the best in that slot with snapcaster.

IMO. adding snapcaster makes it more BUG midrange instead of TA.

BUG control already showing 3 good finishes in december with 0 on TA side.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=52853
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=52870

Not a lot of people picking BUG up I think with UGR Tempo beeing the easier choice.

Don't be a fool and think the classic TA tempo is a DTB!!! This thread beeing in the DTB section is a result of lazy guys at tcdecks and unfortunately also at thesource.

If you look at it honestly (I think) neither BUG control nor TA would be a DTB according to the DTB selection rules. But since both decks are just put together in 1 pot, TA is seen as a DTB altough is is clearly much weaker than BUG control, since the matchups versus the 3 DTB (Maverick, UGR Tempo and UW Stoneblade) are significantly better with BUG control!

My message to all discard lovers. Pick up some lands and snapcaster mages and leave out the stifle/Daze to get an edge over tempo and control!http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...CK-BUG-Control

btw: Good Analysis about snapcaster RedBaron.
A not important side note concerning naming. Why do you say BUG Midrange. Isn't the definition of Midrange "setup to out-trump your opponent", while Control beeing "handle opponents threats until you can take over". If that is correct than snapcaster BUG plays like control and not midrange!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

BUG control already showing 3 good finishes in december with 0 on TA side.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=52853
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=52870

Not a lot of people picking BUG up I think with UGR Tempo beeing the easier choice.

Don't be a fool and think the classic TA tempo is a DTB!!! This thread beeing in the DTB section is a result of lazy guys at tcdecks and unfortunately also at thesource.

If you look at it honestly (I think) neither BUG control nor TA would be a DTB according to the DTB selection rules. But since both decks are just put together in 1 pot, TA is seen as a DTB altough is is clearly much weaker than BUG control, since the matchups versus the 3 DTB (Maverick, UGR Tempo and UW Stoneblade) are significantly better with BUG control!

My message to all discard lovers. Pick up some lands and snapcaster mages and leave out the stifle/Daze to get an edge over tempo and control!http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...CK-BUG-Control

btw: Good Analysis about snapcaster RedBaron.
A not important side note concerning naming. Why do you say BUG Midrange. Isn't the definition of Midrange "setup to out-trump your opponent", while Control beeing "handle opponents threats until you can take over". If that is correct than snapcaster BUG plays like control and not midrange!

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I agree with what you are saying. It's just my personal preference. Control Really isn't my style. I may run 1-2 snapcaster as a utility card, but I'm keeping it tempo.

I have played against RUG and U/W blade lately. I had no problems beating the decks. Snapcaster makes it too slow for me.

IMO, I think the reason why this deck isn't DTB is because people jumped on the Snapcaster Bandwagon too much. I believe too many people are forcing snapcaster into decks where it doesn't belong. Like Team America. Snapcaster is very limited, great card? yes. Belongs in every U deck? No.

There is a guy in my meta, for instance, straight up net-decked one of those versions. He went 2-2, got crushed by Tendrils and some other deck he should beat. I make my delver version (same meta) and only lose 1 game. I know its hard to judge off of local metas, but we have no clue what those big tournanment metas were either. It was probably mostly RUG, UR DElver, and some stoneforge variant, rest aggro, if i had to guess.

I think more or less, there aren't many people playin "Classic TA" the numbers aren't there, but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.

@Catmint
I think its dumb to say that a more controllive version of BUG is strictly better. Leaving out stifle and daze in my meta which is predominantly combo would be a terrible decision. Of the 8 matches I played 5 were combo. In these matches stifle, daze and hymn were an absolute beating. I think decks like these are meant to be tailored for where you are and what you think will show up. Stick with that line of thinking rather than generalizations.

About the DTB crap:
Legacy is a VERY wide open format. If you wanted to run a true gauntlet of all the decks that are Tier 1 or likely to be played you'll be testing a very long time. Its simply not possible to have a deck that would do well against a field that wide. You make a decision about what you think will be played, you pick a deck thats good against that and take your shot at the tournament roulette wheel.
In regards to TA being a DTB it doesn't really matter to me because the whole idea of DTB is flawed on its face. It takes into account some tournament data but not others, it fails to account for region, it fails to account for deck variance and on and on. DTB is just a simple tool to see what people are talking about right now and gives you an idea of things you may want to play. Magic at its most basic is about geography and culture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blacklotus3636

@Catmint
I think its dumb to say that a more controllive version of BUG is strictly better. Leaving out stifle and daze in my meta which is predominantly combo would be a terrible decision. Of the 8 matches I played 5 were combo. In these matches stifle, daze and hymn were an absolute beating. I think decks like these are meant to be tailored for where you are and what you think will show up. Stick with that line of thinking rather than generalizations.

About the DTB crap:
Legacy is a VERY wide open format. If you wanted to run a true gauntlet of all the decks that are Tier 1 or likely to be played you'll be testing a very long time. Its simply not possible to have a deck that would do well against a field that wide. You make a decision about what you think will be played, you pick a deck thats good against that and take your shot at the tournament roulette wheel.
In regards to TA being a DTB it doesn't really matter to me because the whole idea of DTB is flawed on its face. It takes into account some tournament data but not others, it fails to account for region, it fails to account for deck variance and on and on. DTB is just a simple tool to see what people are talking about right now and gives you an idea of things you may want to play. Magic at its most basic is about geography and culture.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Some places in Europe are known to be heavy combo, just as my Meta. This meta is probably totally different than say: Las vegas, which seemed to be mostly RUG from that Starcity a couple months back. You can even Stifle opponents snapcaster. TA is a totally different concept that straight control.

I have stifled both a JTMS-bounce and Liliana-Edict the last tournanment. I see no problems with running Stifle + thoughtseize in the same deck.

Wasteland is also better with stifle, as well as stifle being used to protect your mana base. TA's nature means it has a VERY fragile mana base. Time and time again, Stifle wins me so many games.

Stifle + Hymn is really why this deck works IMO.

The line is blurred when it comes to decks running the color combinations of UBG. They all make use of Tarmogoyf (even a lot of pure-control Deedstill lists can have it and a few other beaters in the SB), Discard (either Hymn or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, or a combination of the two), FoW/Brainstorm, and black removal.

It's like a spectrum of decks:
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

Dark Thresh is pure tempo, with an emphasis on the early game. It runs the fewest lands of the bunch, and typically relies on Dark Confidant as one of its secondary creatures to help refill its hand. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are additional options. This deck typically doesn't run midrange cards like Hymn. The main argument against running this deck is that it's somewhat like a worse version of Canadian Thresh -- red might be the better splash color right now since its removal serves double duty as reach and REB/Pyroblast are pretty amazing SB options.

Team America is still a quick tempo deck. Like DT, TA utilizes Daze and Stifle as two of its main forms of disruption, and Ponder to aid in card selection. However, it drops Confidant in favor of Tombstalker and a few other strong higher-CMC spells. I personally feel that this is the best utilization of UBG in Legacy, based on my experiences playing all of the variations of the color combination. I see it as the most balanced option going into an unknown field since it has a strong chance against most archetypes, whereas the other decks seem more geared towards beating a particular metagame.

BUG Control is where we start seeing a drop in Ponder, Daze, and Stifle in favor of more midrange and lategame cards such as maindeck Jace TMS. We also see more targeted discard, a higher land count and higher curve, and more late-game inevitability. The problem I see with this build is that it lacks the density of early game interaction that the other two decks have, and often loses to an aggressive start from the opponent if it doesn't draw into the correct sequence of answers.

Deedstill is the most controlling deck of the bunch, with virtually no maindeck creatures and utilization of maindeck Pernicious Deed to gain card advantage. It then uses something like Standstill or Ancestral Visions to replenish its hand. It has the most inevitability, but the problem is surviving into the lategame. The banning of Mental Misstep and subsequent speeding-up of the format really hurt this deck in my opinion. Snapcaster Mage is such a strong card for UBG Control that I'm not sure if going creatureless is so justifiable these days... However, in certain metagames it may be the best choice of the bunch -- but I would personally not feel comfortable bringing it into an unknown field.

Since it is a spectrum of decks, there are decks inbetween each of the four points. For example, the Team America builds that were running 22 lands and 2 Jace TMS in the maindeck veer towards being considered BUG Control, but still play Stifle/Daze.

That's just my take on the archetypes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

The line is blurred when it comes to decks running the color combinations of UBG. They all make use of Tarmogoyf (even a lot of pure-control Deedstill lists can have it and a few other beaters in the SB), Discard (either Hymn or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, or a combination of the two), FoW/Brainstorm, and black removal.

It's like a spectrum of decks:
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

Dark Thresh is pure tempo, with an emphasis on the early game. It runs the fewest lands of the bunch, and typically relies on Dark Confidant as one of its secondary creatures to help refill its hand. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are additional options. This deck typically doesn't run midrange cards like Hymn. The main argument against running this deck is that it's somewhat like a worse version of Canadian Thresh -- red might be the better splash color right now since its removal serves double duty as reach and REB/Pyroblast are pretty amazing SB options.

Team America is still a quick tempo deck. Like DT, TA utilizes Daze and Stifle as two of its main forms of disruption, and Ponder to aid in card selection. However, it drops Confidant in favor of Tombstalker and a few other strong higher-CMC spells. I personally feel that this is the best utilization of UBG in Legacy, based on my experiences playing all of the variations of the color combination. I see it as the most balanced option going into an unknown field since it has a strong chance against most archetypes, whereas the other decks seem more geared towards beating a particular metagame.

BUG Control is where we start seeing a drop in Ponder, Daze, and Stifle in favor of more midrange and lategame cards such as maindeck Jace TMS. We also see more targeted discard, a higher land count and higher curve, and more late-game inevitability. The problem I see with this build is that it lacks the density of early game interaction that the other two decks have, and often loses to an aggressive start from the opponent if it doesn't draw into the correct sequence of answers.

Deedstill is the most controlling deck of the bunch, with virtually no maindeck creatures and utilization of maindeck Pernicious Deed to gain card advantage. It then uses something like Standstill or Ancestral Visions to replenish its hand. It has the most inevitability, but the problem is surviving into the lategame. The banning of Mental Misstep and subsequent speeding-up of the format really hurt this deck in my opinion. Snapcaster Mage is such a strong card for UBG Control that I'm not sure if going creatureless is so justifiable these days... However, in certain metagames it may be the best choice of the bunch -- but I would personally not feel comfortable bringing it into an unknown field.

Since it is a spectrum of decks, there are decks inbetween each of the four points. For example, the Team America builds that were running 22 lands and 2 Jace TMS in the maindeck veer towards being considered BUG Control, but still play Stifle/Daze.

That's just my take on the archetypes.

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Excellent Descriptions, I feel that Liliana is pushing the mana curve a bit in TA, much less JTMS. That is pretty accurate to the way I feel.

When you start adding snapcasters, JTMS, etc, you really need 22+ Lands, drop the daze/stifle/hymn, add IoK/Duress, 1CMC counterspells... It's almost an entirely different deck.