[Deck] The Rock

I try the next build for the last mounth, my meta is more agro, but I can meet a lot of different control and combo decks, so I try to build more universal sideboard:

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate

3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezava's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

Side:

2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Extirpate
2 E. Tutor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ethrsworn Canonist
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt/COP:Red (depends on players on tournament)

For the beggining I test standart Nelson's list, but in local tournament I have a lot of mirrors and maverick deck, also burns and goblins were at least 2-3 decks of each types in tournament, so I try to add anti agro component like crusaders, they are anblockable in GWx decks and make a fast clock with other. I don't think that this list optimal for big event, so I want to hear your advices.

Ran against Stoneblade for a few hours tonight. I hate their card advantage.

But, suffice to say, I only lost one game where I landed Chains. Every other game where I landed it, I won. Other games where I didn't land it, I was disfavoured. SoLaS is such a beating against them.

-Matt

I wanted to discuss Vindicate in this deck. How many times have people felt like it is too slow and costly? It's slow against aggro. Against control, it really isn't good since opponents typically only play threats when they can back it up with counters. The times that Vindicate is decent are the rare land screw scenarios. Even then, if you're going to landscrew someone, you better have a fast clock - which Rock isn't known for. So which matchups does Vindicate improve?

What I'm proposing is replacing Vindicate with Mental Misstep. Here is why:

1. We don't run that many creatures and swords can ruin our day. Protect the bodies.
2. We have a lot of 2CC stuff. What counters 2 cc?...Spell Snare. What counters Spell Snare?...Mental Mistep.
3. Mental Misstep would improve our aggro matchup which I know many Rock builds are not particularly strong in.

Thanks to damion, I've built a deck similar to his. The deck went 4:0 at a MTGO daily couple of days ago:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/2829976

Main Deck

60 cards

4 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

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23 lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf

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14 creatures

1 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

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23 other spells


Sideboard
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Badlands
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Damnation
3 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wrath of God

Round 1 (vs ZOO) was kind of fishy. In all of the other matches (UB Merfolk, UWR stoneforge and UW stoneforge) the opponents were swept aside.

I think the deck is brutal vs blue based control decks. Alas, it has defficiencies vs aggro decks. My thoughts are that mystic package is better suited for uw than for bwg. Before, we had enough high quality 2cc drops. Now there's an abundance of them.

Junk should be oriented on mana denial, hand rape and midrange creature kill.
With mystics, we can't activate wasteland on turn 1 and two because it slows us down.

We must choose between casting hymn or mystic on turn 2, and that's a painful choice. On the other hand, if we don't play hymns, we get crushed by storm combo.

Kotr and goyf are better than batterskull. So why are we wasting our turns on it?

I mean, the deck is good and stoneforge is a monster, but it doesn't have a rockish/junkish flavour.

I liked the idea of trying to get the deck 2for1 and srew their card advantage.
the deck I have in mind goes like this:
24 lands (the standar selection)

15 creatures:
3-4 goyfs
3-4 hexmages (need testing for this)
4 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant

4 mox diamond (why everyone playes only 3?)

4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 hymn to turach

4 swords to plowshares
1 sylvan library
2 life from the loam

2 vindicate

so it will be a hidrid 2for1 engine (to gain tempo) play as regular agro (knights+goyfs) have some card advantage with bobs and sylvan library+loam and finaly combo with depths

I haven't tested yet and maybe i will replace vindicates (and find 2 more spots) for mental missteps

I liked the idea of trying to get the deck 2for1 and screw their card advantage.
the deck I have in mind goes like this:
24 lands (the standar selection)

15 creatures:
3-4 goyfs
3-4 hexmages (need testing for this)
4 knight of the reliquary
4 dark confidant

4 mox diamond (why everyone play only 3?)

4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 hymn to turach

4 swords to plowshares
1 sylvan library
2 life from the loam

2 vindicate

so it will be a hidrid 2for1 engine (to gain tempo) play as regular agro (knights+goyfs) have some card advantage with bobs and sylvan library+loam and finaly combo with depths

I haven't tested yet and maybe i will replace vindicates (and find 2 more spots) for mental missteps

the reason for many people to run only 3 mox diamonds is that it is almost a dead draw later on, that is why, and initially the deck did not run any or only a 1-drop of loam, so it was a bit of card-disadvantage

in your list CaBaal i think you are way to dependant on the first turn mox, and having only 4 1cmc spells just asks for misstep to counter your swords, though i have to say the idea of 2for1-ing the opponent all the time seems good as idea, but hexmage actually is no 2for1^^, and thoughtseize is so much more powerfull than gerrards verdict (i will be testing the verdicts in the sideboard as a 4-off though, against burn, zoo, and combo, will tell you how it worked when i finally get to test it)
also even if loam+library has insane synergy i still prefer divining top over library, as it is one of our best turn 1 plays if we have no mox and gives you a bit more control when using fetches and knights ability

i for my part was thinking of going to 4 moxes as well as i really love the speedboost, and with 2 loams in the list (thinking of going down to 1, have to try both) seems quite acceptable with 4 moxes, and with top and loam i can easily dredge the dead draws away for more business, i really love dredging crap or excess lands away^^

hope my thoughts reached you.... because english is not my first language and i often have concerns on how well my english is understood

Your English is just fine :P

Edit: Post #1337! Woot!

-Matt

another thought i had lately, what do you guys think about liliana of the veil?, wouldn't she be quite powerfull, as she would have an awesome interaction with loam, and excess lands in your hand, plus she would be a MD-answer to emrakul and maybe even progenitus (if opponent does not have any other creature on board)

so what are your thoughts?

thx Matt, thats quite a relieve as often it feels strange and sounds strange when i read a post i have previously written^^ thank god if it's just my immagination^^

Cool deck results, Publius. The online decks always have a nice variance in flavor to combat the current meta. It's clear that your Junk build is designed to fight all those blue decks that I'm sure are quite popular online, and it looks like it worked well! I especially like the Damnations in the SB, not a lot of people would see that coming at my local meta. I also applaud the use of Red to fight the Blue decks (Artifact Mutation and REB), seems like it would be much more proactive than, say, playing Choke against them. The only issue I could see with that would be the fragility of only having one Red source (Badlands), since a lot of Stoneforge decks and Control decks (and Merfolks) are running Wasteland as well. Losing your Badlands with a Handful of Red Blasts would suck pretty hard. Still, very innovative. The 8 dual lands I take it is a nod to how bad the MTGO shuffler can act up sometimes? I've still never played a single game of Magic Online...

CaBaal, also an interesting list. I might still prefer a couple/few thoughtseize over all those Verdicts, and maybe a 2nd Top source since you're still on the Depths plan, but otherwise sounds about right. On running 4x Mox Diamond, that is a valid question, but I think the reasoning is that it becomes too saturated and you increase the chances even more of having multiples in your opening hand. I would definitely try it out though, maybe you're onto something. If you run 4x moxes, how many Depths would you run?

On Vindicate: I'm still running 2 and I don't have any issues with it at all being too slow. I also have an Engineered Explosives in the place of the 3rd Vindicate to deal with Fast Aggro decks, and the 3 Pernicious Deeds out of the SB should keep most of those decks well at bay in games 2 and 3. Vindicate is a bit expensive, but being able to hit anything is very valuable, beyond just hitting their lands. Hitting artifacts, planeswalkers, and other random problem permanents is huge. How else do you deal with Jace and Batterskull once they hit play? I'm running 24 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds, so paying 3 mana in the midgame is not terrible. Against Blue card advantage decks it might come out for Choke, but against most other decks it's one of the best cards to draw in the lategame. Mental Misstep is nice when you're on Depths, but it is nearly useless after the first few turns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Ran against Stoneblade for a few hours tonight. I hate their card advantage.

But, suffice to say, I only lost one game where I landed Chains. Every other game where I landed it, I won. Other games where I didn't land it, I was disfavoured. SoLaS is such a beating against them.

-Matt

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So, do you have a consensus as to run this card or not?

Congrats publius_aelius,

What did you like about it? What didn't you? What happened against Zoo to make it fishy? A different way to look at it http://4-of.com/#deck?deckid=51700

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

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so you would run chains MD even if you aren't sure what type of deck you are facing?

Yes. I hear lots of decks run Brainstorms.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

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Can you give me a list of your current deck with Chains? Thinking of getting two after B/R shows what to play =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

If you have the money to go buy Chains, I'd say do it. I've got 3 now, so I'm good.

Card's super greasy against them. I destroyed NO RUG and Stoneblade every time I got it down. Might be worth waiting to see if they ban Misstep and if those decks fall apart or not. But, I'd run Chains as a two-of, no doubt, in the Rock. Try it and see. If you're really hesitant, assume you land it on Turn 2 and play against the deck from there.

-Matt

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Can you give me a list of your current deck with Chains? Thinking of getting two after B/R shows what to play =)

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress

3 Vindicate (could be 2 Vindicate, 1 Pulse; or 2 Vindicate, and 1 extra Chains)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

----BOARD--- (in progress)

3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tariff
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip


So far, it's been doing alright, I have to say.

-Matt

Hola Compadres.

So, after an unsuccessful GP Trial today I have a few thoughts.

I lost to Bant Aggro, NO RUG and BW DeadGuy.

I lost to Sylvan Library, Jace and Quadruple Vindicate/Bitterblossom.

I lost to Card Advantage.

Granted, because of some failed attempts to find Vindicates i only played 1 + 1 Pulse, but these card advantage-cards, or problem permanents, are what I couldn't handle.

All I wanted was Chains. Truly.

I played JunkDepths, it looked kind of like this:

24 lands (2 Dark Depths)

4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Bob
3 Hexmage

3 Mox Diamond
1 Top
1 Vindicate
1 Pulse
1 Elspeth
4 Swords
2 Loam
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

I wanted SFM. I wanted Jitte and Swords (I'm thinking Body and Mind, Zoo and Jace).

I'm not sure about Chains main, but I WILL have some in my board in Amsterdam, at least 2-3.

-2 Loam
-3 Hexmage
-1 Land total
-1 Pulse

+1 Vindicate
+4 SFM
+1 Jitte
+1 Sword of Body and Mind

Thoughts about a way to handle the CA-permanents (Jace, Sylvan, BB, etc)?

Thoughts on this SFM-package?

vindicate!?

there is a reason i still want to stick with at least 3 of them

on the SFM-package: why no batterskull, in the merfolk matchup it is bonkers, actually in lots of matchups where the opponent is low on removal it is quite good

on Sword of Body and Mind, i would prefer Sword of Feast and Famine, but that might just be personal preference do to meta-difference
actually i think the swords for all the different colours are made exactly for that purpose, to adapt your list better to your meta, and actually i would allways like to have an addictional sword in the sideboard, if running the SFM-package, just to adapt to decks outside of the MD-Sword-effectiveness


also i think running a 1-off jitte in the SFM-package is obligatory, even more than a batterskull, i would even prefer a 2nd sword of X and Y before a Batterskull, as it might be a blowout if you fetch for batterskull and opponent kills your mystic, but that probably would just be personal preference

Berry, i would like to know your expieriences with elspeth though, as i have seen her as a 1-off in your list
why is she in there (even if allready running hexmage-combo), what decks does she run best against, and in what matchups did you find her of good use, and in what matchups did you side her out (outside of combo, which should be obvious why) ?

just want to get as much info on her as i am thinking of switching hexmages for her as a 2 off, to try which one could be stronger, and more suited for my playstyle