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2. Phyrexian Tower protects your guys from being sworded/terminus. It also enables some outstanding T2 plays. A must have against miracle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
4. You just need 1 loam. If you have it in your hand, entomb will likely be more useful than the 2nd loam.
5. Yes, but you are not a midrange kind of deck (like rhino's list) even if you are playing 3 KotR. STP can also let you gain some life in some MU by swording your own creature
Hmm, good point on the tower, might replace the other tower. How much i like both, i do not think it works to have both with wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I played BUGStill with 1 LftL main and 4 Brainstorm, 4 Standstill and 2 DTT and still i felt like 1 was NOT the right nr. Must try it in this list tho. Still i feel that running either Crop or Entomb is subpar. If i drop it i will include a Thragtusk for it.
I can live with the PtE over StP bearing your arguments. For me the biggest drawback of Swords is giving away lifepoints on an already grindy game.
GP Lille, yes, it already feels like it was a month ago. We didn't had a meeting. Pity.
I brought my Punishing Stormbreath list and MUD. Played MUD on the main since it felt stronger, more suited for the meta and games do not last longer then 30 minutes. Played some trails and Day 1 going 2-3 drop. Played 3x BUG Delver in a row. A matchup i do not like with MUD. Should have played PFire instead!!!!!
Played some on demands on Sunday with PFire, but it was kinda meh. It was soo warm and i felt tired and lazy all weekend. I did got Michael Sutfin to sign and do a small artwork over my 3 Japanese SDT's in the Jund colors.
My travel partner, who played Death and Taxes also got 2-3, and i were pretty furious about how the current meta is. We decided to build a blue deck to beat blue decks (not joking there) until we saw Aggro Loam going so well.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...b026dc1b29.jpg
@ Arianrhod - Then I would say we must agree to disagree here. I believe Brainstorm is by far a better card selection tool than anything else considering the amount of cards this deck can draw that become "dead" after a point and I also believe not playing DTT is wrong.
Unless or until the days of Rug delver vs Maverick as the top 2 decks come back this deck will struggle to find itself well positioned. I think you are right that the deck needs a turn 2/3 card advantage spell. Nights whisper is actually the cleanest answer we have. At 1 black it is very splashable in 3 colors (hence why it has even seen play in vintage as it is an easy turn 1/2 play with little mana investment). Playing Etutor package would also feel fine here with more raw card draw and library. I think this may be a way for white to up some % points in combo match ups. Running both GSZ and etutor does add mana to whatever you do but the flexibility and power of the cards should hopefully offset this.
It is very hard to guess what the meta game looks like before the announcement as I could see dig or top going or nothing. Brainstorm wont go but IF it did this deck would instantly become a lot better (non blue versions).
I'm fine with agree to disagree. I am going to run through my thought process in greater detail now that I'm awake, though. Feel free to poke holes, or not, either way is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Here's where I take issue with this.
Veteran Explorers #3 and #4 and excess lands are the only real dead draws in a well built Nic Fit deck -- and even then, there are situations where these cards can be wanted. You can argue some game ones -- Decays vs TES, for example -- but those are fringier situations. A well-built Nic Fit list should not have more dead draws than this, and minimal card selection is required to solve this problem -- more is obviously good, because card selection, but I also don't think that going too deep on the cantrip shell is wise because you don't want to spend all of your time cantripping. You want, in fact, to punish those players who DO spend all of their time cantripping. Sure, you Brainstormed into Ponder into Ponder into Dig. You got it, boss -- you effectively resolved one spell, and that spell did not affect the board state.
I am not going to disagree that Brainstorm is the strongest card in its type -- possibly the strongest card in the format. I will also defend Brainstorm's existence, as with that of Force of Will, to my dying breath. Not because of power level, and not because of "legacy identity bullshit rabble rabble:" rather, because I remember what happened to vintage when they restricted Brainstorm, at least in the United States. There is a reason something like 80% of the world's Power supply moved overseas, and that's still correcting itself today. I enjoy legacy more often than I don't, and I don't want the format to literally implode on itself. If that means putting up with Brainstorm's bullshit, I can deal.
Now, to progress logically from there: If Brainstorm > all, why not Brainstorm?
I'm going to alter course slightly back into Nic Fit territory as opposed to core philosophy. Within the Nic Fit umbrella, there are a lot of different things one can do in different colors. We've expressed before in the thread varying strengths and weaknesses of the different colors. Let's focus on blue.
Pros:
You get to run Brainstorm.
You get to run [big draw here]. This can be Dig, Gifts, Fact or Fiction, Jace, any 3+ cmc that goes deep into your deck.
You get to run Jace (he deserves an extra line).
You get to run Consecrated Sphinx, which is probably the single most powerful 6-drop available.
You get to run Baleful Strix.
You -potentially- have a stronger combo plan than other colors, pending card choices.
Cons:
You end up spending roughly the same time durdling as the other colors despite having cantrips/draw, because cantrips inbreed (draw into more cantrips), with less impact on board.
You play squarely into Red Elemental / Pyroblast, which is a much more massive tempo loss than it is normally. 5/6-drops getting REBed for 1 mana (god forbid Snap-REBed) is VERY painful.
You play squarely into anti-blue land hate. I didn't realize how much of this exists beyond Nic Fit sideboards until I played Pyromancer. Choke is much more horrifying than I gave it credit for, though some of that might be because grixis can't kill it in colors.
You have to run generally inferior creatures across the board than the white versions.
You also have generally inferior spells than the red versions (Burning Wish and Punishing Fire are both very strong).
You are forced to resort to various Garruks if you want a combat planeswalker.
Some of the cons negate some of the pros, while some are more complementary. You can certainly make the tempo hit from REB hurt less by just not running Consecrated Sphinx, for example -- but then you're missing out on that power level, which is kind of a conundrum since Sphinx is one of the reasons (imo) to go blue in the first place. The chance also exists to overload REB since they have to worry about Dig, Jace, etc as well. Other cons/problems are simply intrinsic and can't really be solved as well. Admittedly BUG Nic Fits have to worry about Choke several orders of magnitude less than most blue decks, but it can still catch you with your pants down sometimes. I have 100% lost games to Blood Moon while having 8 basics in my deck. It's mega tilting, but it can and does happen.
Honestly, I still say that as far as Nic Fit is concerned, you both can and should be able to play whatever color combination you want. Philosophically, I do not believe in the blue-master-race, at least within our own borders. It CERTAINLY can be -- and SHOULD be -- that individual pilots have individual preferences. You may well value the consistency that Brainstorm/Dig/etc offer above all else, and that is 100% okay in my book. John down the street might prefer to slam bombs until the opponent is out of removal...well hey, white is awfully good at that. Or Tim over here might like railgun attrition with Punishing Fires, grinding the creature decks to dust. Meanwhile, Beth just wants to Scapeshift people, but Joris likes to do Rector-Omniscience things. Or whatever.
I have held for a very, very long time now that there is no right way to play this deck -- only mine, and yours, and his, and hers. It's one of the most frustrating things about the archetype when brewing it or discussing it, but it's also one of the deck's most wondrous strengths. For you, there may only be one 'correct' color combination, and that's okay. I have no problem with that until we hit that barrier of one type being strictly better than another in an abstract sense, because I just truly believe that isn't the case.
I will admit that there are an awful lot of poorly built Nic Fit lists, and the blue builds are probably a little harder to build incorrectly on a base level // are intrinsically better philosophically in a world of averages. Assuming high-level builds of all variants, however, a lot of these issues disappear and the field is much more even than it sometimes appears. That being said, the blue lists are probably also the hardest to build correctly. It does say a lot about the strength of Brainstorm that you can jam it into a deck and it's automatically better than average, even if an otherwise poorly built blue list isn't "in its final form," so to speak.
If you held a gun to my head and forced to me rank Nic Fit color combos as such, I would probably suggest this:
Well-built Red == Well-built BUG == Well-built White >> average built blue >> average built red >> average built white == poorly built blue >> poorly built red >> poorly built white.
I do agree that the power of the draw spells gives you an edge until the highest tier of lists. Likewise, I would tend to bias red over white just off of the raw power of Punishing / Wish as engines. White versions really struggle with the correct balance of everything -- juggling the mix of creatures, bombs, removal, utility, and draw is very challenging, and it is easy for white lists to do very poorly as a result.
@Bobmans: Those Tops are sweet!
@General: There is a longstanding tradition that I see is still playing out. It's called: Nic Fit players wuss out of playing Nic Fit at GPs (for whatever reason, not saying Ralf wasn't a Good Guy) and get punished for it. It's happened to me, I know it's also happened to Qweerios, and I recall reading about it from previous GPs. If you're going to audible out of Nic Fit in the future, my advice would be to play a deck that uses a similar skillset -- look for a Cabal Therapy deck. My audible deck currently is Grixis Pyromancer (control variant), which plays a similar gameplan and runs Cabal Therapy.
Alright, I'm gonna go get some brewing done. I should have some lists for perusal either later today or tomorrow at the latest. I'm probably going to start with Night's Whisper versions and then work outwards from there, because I think that Whisper -probably- has the most potential out of the lot, with Diabolic Intent running second.
Nice Headshot ! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
When you are left with "Arid Mesas" as your lone fetches, you HAVE to find a deck to "keep up apparences" !!!!
Joke aside, Imperial Tax was really fun to play.
Should have played my B/R Suicide deck on the main event. ahahahah
So far it has game but I have not heavily tested it. I wanted a version that had more game against show and tell strategies without gutting the core concept. There are alot of incremental ca and life gain built into the explore top courser engine. My take aways so far are that I want a second arbor and either a second sigarda or the first dromoka. Its by no means refined yet and is still in its infancy but im confidant its a real option.
2nd Sigarda? You could also try a Thrun next to Sigarda. They are good buddies..Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Also i am curious to Dryad Arbor's performance, especcially since you want a second copy.
@Ralf, i see in your Junk list you run Sakura-Tribe Elder and Acadic Slime. Why not run Gaddock Teeg and Reclamation Sage instead?
@Arianrhod, thanks. Not lets hope i keep to play them. You know i played the PFire list and the Junk list both at GP Utrecht side events. The lists underperformed. Junk more then Jund, but the games where super grindy and i felt like i wanted shorter games and something with an "oops-i-win" factor. MUD is in any case my to go to and i felt it was a super good call to run it. Anyway, i will not linger from the path when i chosen one. The big question is: can NicFit rise to the stars?
In case SDT got banned i just bought a 4thBB Jap Sylvan Library and a Jap Mirri's Guile, just in case. If it stays i am a step closer to regular JUND anyway.
Gaddock is a very good GSZ target but a pretty poor topdeck against any fair decks. Usually you pack him against unfair strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Sage is a very good GSZ target but also a poor topdeck. I have opted to play the 2nd Maelstrom Pulse before the first Sage.
I would also point out that my list have eschewed the Stoneforge package which emphasis the clunkyish aspect of such creatures in my MD shell.
So to sum it up:
1) You can play Sage & Gaddock MD if you are playing the stoneforge package
2) Otherwise, you should not.
My two cents.
Second arbor primarily as additional sac fodder for therapy and intent. Chump blocker that trigger titania sacable to knight it opens a lot of lines and ive encountered times id already used it but needed another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Thrun is good but I want a second beefy relient flyer in the main I can zenith for. Tasigur rhino goyf mirran crusader or pyromancer tokens just stonewall him. Without equips wolf run or p fire i think hes a wall in too many matchups i want a clock i can count on.
Hello! I'm new to the forum, and Legacy in general (though I have a good idea of how things play out through videos). I've been following the Magic Origins spoiler since it came out, and the Veteran Explorer/Evolutionary Leap engine since it came out. With no other creatures in your deck, Leap will inevitably find another Explorer. Thus, you can search out 8 forests in a single turn (or 6 forests and two other basics). I've seen this discussed in this thread, but suffice to say I think you're giving up on the dream too soon.
The big thing that's been ignored so far is that with tokens, it becomes much closer to a 1-card combo. All you need is Leap, and it will find you an Explorer to start the chain.
Some ideas I've been kicking around:
Khalni Garden
Sylvan Library
Lingering Souls
Primal Command
Time Spiral
Rude Awakening
Garruk Wildspeaker
As for the speed, I don't think that not being a turn 2 kill is particularly important. Food Chain is very much a value deck that happens to have an infinite combo, and I feel that's a better idea of what an Evolutionary Leap build should look like.
Imagine the following scenario:
You: Rude Awakening. Move to combat phase?
Opponent: Spin Top, pay W, Terminus. GG?
I've been testing Woodland Bellower instead of the usual Grave Titan as my 6-drop and so far I like it a little better. For reference, this is Junk Fit with Siege Rhino as the 4-drop and Sigarda, Host of Herons as the 5-drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by thotcrime
It doesn't provide as much board presence as Titan, but it's been a more problem-solving board presence more often than not, usually grabbing Eternal Witness (which by that point has a slew of game-changing options) or Qasali Pridemage. The other major plus is GSZ-ability; a minor plus is Titan tokens not sometimes conflicting with Pernicious Deed. A minor drawback is less token fuel for sac effects. I'm sure that depending on the build, it'll be a fine choice along with Sun Titan and the other accepted big guys.
Problematic, but relying on it as the sole win condition is probably a poor idea in the first place and playing around Terminus-geddon is something you can often afford to do when you have 10 lands in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Is there a list for Naya Scapewish?
White for hate bears against other combo decks and for access to path to exile and wear/tear, could be an option?
Well... 10 lands is a pretty bad clock... And they can't block incoming attackers either. Or interact with anyCombo. They don't tax your opponent, they aren't hatebears and so on. It's nice to power our a lot of land, but you still have to either interact with your opponent(s threats) or present threats yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryCaravan
Why not Scapefit? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Also a 6 Tutor Scapefit list (2 DI, 4 Burning Wish) could maybe play without SDT or just with cards like Nights Whisper to dig for Tutors.
NicFit without Cabal Therapy? How would you trigger the Explorer?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
And NicFit imo wants to play too many basics for 4-color strategies. (but I'm no expert!)
Good point, i am not ready to invest in 3x taiga and 3x badlands, which need to be FBB ofc. Getting rev first is also kind of pointless. Maybe i should proxy it and play to see if i like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
I can get behind replacing Grave Titan, because fuck that card. I do think that you need to explain (for your own benefit, not being condescending) how Bellower is better than Dromoka or Primeval Titan as the secondary 6 beside Sun Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
4c is rough but doable. Amusingly, 5c is easier than 4. I messed around for a while with non-black versions using Crack the Earth as the outlet, but it just wasn't good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
I think the issue Scapewish runs into without Top is just those critical early turns. Running more tutors to compensate late game is a no-brainer -- but Scape always had issues having a smooth early game because of the raw number of actual, non-fetch lands that you need to run to make the ratios work out between basics for Explorers and ramp dudes and duals for Scapeshift. Furthermore, you're stuck with 2 Valakuts alongside basic Mountains, which can exacerbate the issue even further.
This is where I'm at with Tundras in vintage. Talk about first world problems -- but no matter how self-aware I am, I just can't bring myself to go white bordered. The only cards that are allowed to be white bordered are power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I have had several questions regarding Punishing Fire NicFit thru PM, but i missed them because i was strictly using Tapatalk and it disnt show me i had message's. Regardless of the current meta and if or if not Sensei's Divining Top will be banned the list displayed below is what i would run now. But i will describe why and how i came to this 76.
For a couple of month's i have been playing and tweaking the Punishing Fires list. I tried several configurations and eventually caused me to split the list into 2 versions. 1 version was more regular running an all green creature package and the newer version runnig 2 Stormbreath Dragon.
For the green version i had tested various creature packages.
1. 4/1 vs 3/4 Split between Veteran Explorer and Deathrite Shaman. During testing i found that the early game didn't apply any pressure outside of Veteran Explorer coupled with Cabal Therapy. You will not always get an opening with those two at the same time. Also without applying to much pressure during the early game my opponents had more removal and other business when swifting into midgame. This made my midgame less solid. Running 4 Deathrite Shaman fixed that at the cost of one Veteran Explorer. Being able to slam Deathrite Shaman during turn 1 was good in a lot of match-ups including a number of combo match-ups. Being able to put early pressure on the board created a much better midgame position.
2. 0 vs 2/3 Thoughtseize main. I wanted even more pressure during the early turns. But this was at the cost of Vraska and a Green Sun's Zenith or Courser of Kruphix. We have a fixed number of removal and in my oppinion we cannot change those numbers. While running 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Deathrite Shaman main i gained a lot of velocity with the deck, but it was lacking midgame pressure. It felt like starting a running competition to fast and halfway your having to pull yourself forward while all your energy is gone.
3. Scraping the cute. Vraska the Unseen and Courser of Kruphix fall in this category. While both fullfill a totally diferent role i can say this. With the velocity i had with 2 Thoughtseize main i was missing midgame business. Courser gave an edge on card-advantage by further exploiting Sensei's Divining Top. Even own it's on it could put us ahead. Vraska is a total different animal. I played Garruk Relentless a couple of weeks and everytime it landed it felt like a weaker version of Vraska. The removal was lacking reach and the tokens where often to soft. While Vraska does not make tokens (not counting her winning Ultimate) she is actually a pretty complex combat walker. So those two cards make the cut again.
4. Stormbreath Dragon. This card is just bonkers and has won a lot of games on it's own. Also it put a stop at my opponents combat streak AND a lot of opponents are currently left with staring at their Sword to Plowshares stuck in their hand. But there is a but. The creature is not green. Therefor needed in multiples. Also it is CMC 5. So to balance the mana curve i had to cut the 6 drop and Thrun. The big question i still have is, is it worth cutting the green? I think the answer is no. This came to me after seeing the PFire list getting into T16 during a SCG event and i realised that what gives us the best mid/longgame plan is the ability to Zenith. Or like in the military as they say: "Stick to the plan".
5. 2/2/2 split vs 3/2/1 split between Forest, Swamp and Mountain. One word: "manascrew". It happened with the regular setup, but it was happening more often where you have multiple off color spells. Also running RR, BB and GG casting cost cards make that you will often find yourself puzzeling to fix colors to much while opening yourself to Wasteland more. So cutting the red creature and sticking with GBr as much as possible is best.
6. Kolaghan's Command vs Maelstrom Pulse. Now this card is very intersting. I am prefering it to the Pulse for a number of reason's. 1. It's an instant. 2. All modes are relevant so it always does something in ANY match-up. 3. It is always a 2-for-1 card. 4. It was made for this deck. I included one maindeck to test it and i am loving the card. Especially against Death and Taxes (or any other stoneblade deck) the card is bonkers. Also with the Destroy an artifact it matches it's sister card Golgari Charm. So i decided to put 2 of each in my 76. This way we have 2/4 disenchant in the deck that can also take care of creatures. Also Command can be used against combo, while Charm is also useful against Elves or Young Pyromancer. The cards are swiss army knifes. Super, i'm loving it.
7. Blood Moon. While this card looked promising it felt super akward. It never helped me win, it seems like people are prepared for that card or something. Anyway it didn't help me enough and i'd rather run Red Elemental Blast to assist in combatting Omnishow or Miracles (or other combo/fow decks).
8. Extirpate vs Surgical Extraction. While the Split Second ability can be game determining i find it to be more usefull to have more tempo and choose to run Surgical Extraction. And i was not disappointed. While being able to hold open a mana for Deathrite Shaman you do not have to hold open another mana. This way you can build up to midgame a bit faster while applying pressure to the game. Also it opens up a possible turn 0 answer to very fast yard decks like Oozing or Reanimator.
9. Primeval Titan. We have had discussions before on this thread and i feel that there is no real choice to run or not run it. Going for Rampaging Baloth of Grave Titan is optional. But there is no CMC 6 in the Jund colors that rocks my world. Charnelhoard Wurm is still the sickest creature i have actually played in this deck, but something is keeping me away from it (it might be that it is CMC 7), unless you guys aprove of this.
All-in-all i had a lot of fun playing the various options in this deck, but i have figured i got beyond the point of having the perfect list (nothing is perfect). So i stepped back a few tweaks and have settled for something very flexible.
Let's get grindy:
// 61 card main:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
// 15 card side:
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
I get your point. Since you already tried to develop some post-SDT strategies, could you think of any way to solve those early turn issues for Scapewish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Mirris Guile/Sylvan Library + Explorer/Tribe Elder/Wood Elves/GSZ provide good value and maybe the Scapefit list could - due to the wishboard - allow to decrease or cut the deeds. On the other hand the low amount of fetchlands also affects Guile/Library.
But I expect an overall increase in Monastery Mentors albeit SDT, so Deed will become an excellent card again.
Just Brainstorming:
What about adding 1-2 (fetch-)lands and 2-3 Magmatic Insight + Titania. Adding lands bolsters the Scapeshift finish and could give us an additional turn 1 play (not the best one, sure). Titania should imo be a thing in Scapefit - but I didn't try her so far.
EDIT: Since Bobmans just stroke a blow for Courser of Kruphix - this one also likes to play with Guile/Library - and stacks some triggers on Scapeshift.