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The Pros are you save about $75Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The Cons are your deck is not as good, you risk drawing your deck out or losing to time by not running WoWar, you can't play WW enchantments as easily.
Enchantress only runs 3-4 duals but combined with fetchlands they make the deck a lot more consistant without folding to Wastelands or Blood Moon. You could probably manage with only 1 Savannah if you had to with fetches.
I agree with what he said about not running duals. I'm a big fan of Blood Moon maindeck, so I'll mention that you lose out on that. You can still use Sprawl to get access to it, but the loss of duals would be interesting. Maybe I'll try that at the weekly tournament here (I'm ahead like 200 in credit at the store) to see just how bad it really hurts.
About the duals, agreeing with what was said, the biggest loss is not running WoW and Blood Moon. The deck can easily play with no Savannah, relying on fetches, but I find Taiga really necessary.
Blood Moon is a meta call as well as a play style call. I could see running it main deck, sideboard, or not running it at all if your meta is mostly Blue and Red based aggro. Words of War on the other hand is no contest the most necessary card in the deck aside from Enchantresses. If WoWar was never printed this deck would be straight garbage tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
Dementia - I love your Eternal Wind list. Someone should start a new thread for it definitely.
I've played a version of this deck when Garruk came out. He costs more, but cannot be killed with anything like Terminate, PtE, StP or the like. Garruk also cannot be bolted as you add the counter without passing priority - putting him up to 4 counters. And if Solitary Confinement is down (as it nearly always is by the midgame) Garruk is immune to anything that isn't Vindicate or Rootgrapple He also takes the strain off of having a dedicated blue source for when you combo off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementia
I found that Garruk was also a lot easier to protect then a Cloud of faeries would be, as he gains the benefit from a Moat or Elephant Grass. I was using 8 Wild Groth Effects and piling them on one land [which as bad against sinkhole but the deck is bad against sinkhole anyway.] And I never had a problem generating the mana for Garruk + Words of Wind activation x2 + Enchantment.
I think those lists are interesting, but as someone else said, this thread is meant more for the discussion of the G/W enchantress build.
Sorry, I did not mean to cause trouble. I just wanted to give ideas after someone had suggested trying Living Wish in the GW version and with all the possibilities and Wish targets it seemed better to show a list around it.
It's true cards are not the same but to me the toolbox Living Wish offers is similar to what GW allows with Sterling Grove except it's in the sideboard: Glacial Chasm mimics Solitary Confinement, Tabernacle mimics Elephant Grass... Cloud of Faeries with an enchanted land on turn 2 gives that extra mana for daze that you have been wanting to achieve with ESG/Mox/Petal.
Anyway, you are right. I shouldn't discuss it here anymore so back on topic:
In the Eye of Chaos has been suggested as well as Rule of Law, Canonist and Gaddock Teeg. ANT and Reanimator players are starting to pack 2-3 copies of Reverent Silence in their sideboard. It's a sorcery, so ITEC doesn't work against it, not to mention it's an enchantment that gets destroyed by it in the process. Same for Rule of Law. I think it's a good idea to focus on Canonist / Teeg because they are immune to Reverent Silence and because they cause damage. Answers should be either creature or artifact for that reason unless their forest is turned into a mountain. On a side note, Teeg seems to be the best answer but, it's a legend and won't let us play replenish.
Sorry, I did not mean to cause trouble. I just wanted to give ideas after someone had suggested trying Living Wish in the GW version and with all the possibilities and Wish targets it seemed better to show a list around it.
It's true cards are not the same but to me the toolbox Living Wish offers is similar to what GW allows with Sterling Grove except it's in the sideboard: Glacial Chasm mimics Solitary Confinement, Tabernacle mimics Elephant Grass... Cloud of Faeries with an enchanted land on turn 2 gives that extra mana for daze that you have been wanting to achieve with ESG/Mox/Petal.
Anyway, you are right. I shouldn't discuss it here anymore so back on topic:
In the Eye of Chaos has been suggested as well as Rule of Law, Canonist and Gaddock Teeg. ANT and Reanimator players are starting to pack 2-3 copies of Reverent Silence in their sideboard. It's a sorcery, so ITEC doesn't work against it, not to mention it's an enchantment that gets destroyed by it in the process. Same for Rule of Law. I think it's a good idea to focus on Canonist / Teeg because they are immune to Reverent Silence and because they cause damage. Answers should be either creature or artifact for that reason unless their forest is turned into a mountain. On a side note, Teeg seems to be the best answer but, it's a legend and won't let us play replenish.
Has anyone tried a 2-of Exploration? I would be interested in seeing results for this card.
It's hard to say in a vacuum. I used to run 4x Explorations but that was a slower version of the deck and I played 23 lands (I think) so I almost always dropped 2 land the turn I played one. I guess it really depends on the rest of your deck. Most importantly how many lands you run, how many non-Exploration mana accelerators you run, whether you run 1x or 2x red sources, and what cards you cut for the Explorations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
@Dementia- there should be a post of mine somewhere in the last 2 pages that sums up my feelings on anti-combo sideboards. I still think Rule of Law is a relic at this point and finds it's way into most peoples lists because, once upon a time, it was our only real option vs. storm combo. In the past 3 years or so plenty of other cards have been printed that just do a better job. Rule and Canonist are good vs. combo, but at the same time we are basically playing a combo deck. You need to win fast or lock the game.
Dovescape locks the game
Teeg keeps them off Ad/Tendrils/R. Silence/Charbeltcher/EtW and beats for 2
Runed Halo keeps them from winning is tutorable and draws cards off Enchantress
Null Rod is also doable especially if you don't run Mox/Petal and it stops artifact mana, Beltcher, Grindstone, Divining Top.
Rule and Canonist slow us down too much giving combo time to find answers, and once they find answers the game ends pretty quick if you've only been playing one spell a turn instead of going apeshit. You need to play multiple spells a turn just as bad as they do to end the game quickly. Teeg stops storm from winning and stops Silence. Halo and Null Rod are both good vs. the majority of combo decks, Dovescape basically ends the game considering they run mostly 0~1~2 cmc and you draw if any Enchantresses are on the board (and most combo decks deal 0 damage until the last turn). Those are the 4 best anti-combo cards I can think of. Canonist is better than Rule since it beats for 2 and doesn't fall to Silence, but you have to run multiples since you can't Grove them (or you could go with a E. Tutor plan). I think Rule falls into the "all your eggs in one basket" trap. If you are running something that screws both players so symmetrically it needs to be more solid than just another enchantment. Atleast if you get Canonist out and a Runed Halo or Confinement they need to find 2 answers to win instead of just EoT M. Tutor for Silence, draw/play Silence/go nuts.
I had been using it up until about a month ago. Swapped it for Wild Growth 3 and 4 and haven't looked back. It is usually kind of meh a lot of time with the occasional OMG this is awesome. Unfortunately, the meh's happen way way way more than the OMG's. There should be more discussion about it somewhere 10 or so pages back. It may be further, not sure and my internet is sucking way too much today to look.
I went 3-0-2 in a thirty-something people tourney on saturday, my list looked like this:
Mana (22):
6x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Plains
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Taiga
Engine:
4x Argothian Enchantress
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Sterling Grove
Kill:
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1x Words of War
The Rest:
4x Elephant Grass
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
3x Solitary Confinement
2x Replenish
2x Runed Halo
1x Ground Seal
1x Lignify
1x City of Solitude
1x Oblivion Ring
Sideboard:
4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Choke
1x City of Solitude
1x Runed Halo
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Replenish
Round 1: Enchantress mirror :cry:
Okay this match would obviously be insanely stupid and I immediately suggested that we ID, my opponent didn't accept and we proceeded to lock each other out of the game and after 35 minutes of drawing cards and skipping draws with WoW etc he accepted to take the draw. Kind of bad luck to get a basically impossible to win match right on the first round.
0-0-1
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1 he's playing and starts with land, springleaf drum, I go forest, sprawl, next turn he goes land ravager, on my turn i play land, runed halo on ravager. Later he makes plating and arcbound worker and beats me to 8 or so and then I o-ring, he sacs worker to ravager and only has ravagers that are useless due to runed halo. In a couple turns i lock him and make a bunch of angels. Game 2 he gets turn 3 10/10 master of etherium and I die a couple turns later, in game three I'm on the play and assemble confinement lock in 4 turns with two enchantress's and it's game over.
SB: out Ground Seal, City, Wild Growth in Aura, Halo, O-ring
1-0-1
Round 3: Dragon Stompy
So now I'm staring at my friend's face across the table, he's playing dragon stompy so I'm in a pretty good spot, in game 1 he goes first playins chalice @ 1, chalice @ 2 and blood moon during his first three turns while I play basics to prevent beings hurt by blood moon, on my third turn i O-ring the chalice @ 2, he plays a morphed gathan raiders and on my turn 4 I play enchantress and lignify on raiders, then i start cantrip-chaining with 1-drop echantments and replenish them back and go sigil. Game 2 starts with him playing a trinisphere turn 1, avalanche riders turn 2 --> destroy my land, turn 3 play echo, turn 4 second riders and a couple turns later i'm dead. Game 3 I go first and start with a first turn echantress, second turn presence, third turn cop:red and he scoops.
SB: out Ground Seal, City, 2x Elephant Grass, in 2x CoP:Red, O-Ring, Halo
2-0-1
Round 4: Pro-Bant
I lose the roll once again and he goes land-->noble hierarch, i go land-->sprawl, second turn he plays trygon predator and i drop a land + enchantress. He attacks with predator and eats my sprawl, then goes natural order (sac hierarch)-->progenitus, on my turn i lignify the predator and play land + sprawl, next turn he attacks with progenitus and I go to 7, on my turn i go land, presence, runed halo on progenitus. During the next couple of turns he plays a couple natural orders saccing progenitus and predator and bringing goyf and pridemage to play and i play confinement, sigil wow, grove and some other stupid things and overwhelm him, at some time I had to chump a goyf but that's it. Game 2 starts with a couple hierarchs and goyf IIRC, while i play enchantress and a halo on progenitus, assemble confinement and proceed to win.
SB: out Ground Seal, Grass, in Halo, City (he had savannahs out in game one with tropicals so I didn't bring chokes in)
3-0-1
Round 5: Merfolk
I lose the roll again (threw 1 four times and 5 once on a D20 :frown: ) and rip a hand with no enchantresses but fast mana and elephant grasses, confinement and replenish, now that I think of it I should have definitely mulliganed, but I had 2 hours of sleep the night before and due to some stupid though decided to keep the hand. He plays a vial and some fish, I fail to draw enchantress and die when my confinement is bounced with a shitload of merfolk on the board. Game 2, I start and play stuff which gets countered, but eventually I'm at 3 life with e.grass, 2 presence and 1 enchantress on board and he has 3 lands (one mutavault), 3 silvergill adepts, 2 LoA (lignify on one) and a Reejerey after some vial shenanigans but all his lands are tapped and he passes the turn. On my turn I pay the grass, play O-ring on Reejerey, Halo on Adept and pass the turn so he can only do damage with one LoA which i chump with enchantress. On my next turn I assemble confinement lock with 2 sterling groves and eventually burn him with WoW. Game 3 starts again with vial and i go forest-->sprawl which gets dazed, next turn he plays the island again and puts a counter on vial, i play plains--> enchantress, dazed, he plays the island and puts a counter on vial. My turn, I play land, O-ring, he activates vial and puts adept into play, draws a card and spell pierces. Time is called on my turn, he attacks with the adept a couple times, plays a standstill, third daze and a second spell pierce on my replenish and presence and I'm left with 2 sterling groves and it's a draw. I'm a bit disappointed because I feel like I could have easily won the match (and thereby the tournament) but didn't have enough time, well better luck next time and no enchantress mirror please.
SB: out Ground Seal, Wild Growth and something, in City, Halo and Replenish
3-0-2
Now that the tourney is over I think I'll do the following changes to my deck:
-Horizon Canopy
+Savannah
I never used the draw ability of the canopy even though I had it in play at least four times.
-Ground Seal
+Elvish Spirit Guide
The ESGs were really good and Seal was sided out every game, while it is nice to have against loam decks etc, I think the increased speed is a better fit.
I'm also pondering the following changes to the sideboard:
-2 Choke
+1 CoP: Blue
+1 City of Solitude
Choke just doesn't seem that great anymore, Landstill is a really rare sight, merfolk and UW tempo use vials and free counters (and replaying the tapped lands afer daze), bant has hierarchs for blue mana and canadian thresh has the same free counters as well so an additional City of Solitude seems like a better choice and CoP:Blue is another silver bullet against merfolk.
City of Solitude is probably the weakest anti-blue card you can run in my experience. Choke is way better, Carpet is better, Multani's Presence is better, and just running the SB Fatty plan is way better. City seems amazing on the surface because you think it's a big deal to shut down their counters. But it fucks up your curve, taking the turn you were supposed to play an Enchantress, doesn't slow down the proactive part of their gameplan, and is a dead topdeck. Choke is never a dead topdeck, and even if you play it after your Enchantresses, is still a bomb most of the time.
We don't need silver bullets against Fish. It's a very favorable matchup.
I personally like Ground Seal main deck, but it's a meta call. It helps a tiny bit against Reanimator, but is especially useful any any deck running recursion (LftL, Eternal Witness, Volrath's Stronghold, etc.). Yeah, it might get sided out a lot, but the same goes for other silver bullet slots that aren't useful game 1. I think it hurts more decks legacy-wide. If you aren't sure about your meta game, you should probably just fill those bullet slots with an all-purposer like O-ring.
I've been loving Runed Halo maindeck, and I think everyone should be running at least two. A lot of legacy decks run few kill cards, and it gives you a great game 1 chance against combo.
I just hope they print some new enchantments for us in the next few sets. Even if they did a white Argothian (like they did with Verduran as Mesa), I think that would be great.
Cracker Enchantress would just be sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Exploration was played in every WGr Enchantress I'm aware of up until Ravnica block when Utopia Sprawl came out.
Exploration is a great card for the deck, which is why I run 2. It helps like Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth with acceleration, and is great late game, pumping more mana onto the board. After turn 7 its really a free card, that draws you cards. I've also found it late game dropping a Sanctum as my second or third land to finish it helps.
Top 8 for me with my ugly list. 4-2. Changed the CoP: Red for another Karmic Justice. Came back to bite me as I lost to a burn deck where I drew almost every land in the deck between enchantments it felt like.
Agreed, the last bone they threw to the Enchantress players was Sigil. I'd love to see an Enchantress Planeswalker. I recall someone else's idea for one, something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
2GW : 4 starting loyalty
+1: the next time you cast an enchantment this turn, draw a card
-1: search your library for an enchantment, put it on top
-7: Replenish
How cool would that be?