[Deck] Ichorid

I agree, Chosen is the only 'fatty' I've ever boarded.
It's not necessary anymore though. Firestorm rapes aggro more than Chosen ever will, that, and Firestorm gets online earlier and doesn't require a Dread Return (which can be hard to pull off on time without Bridges and burns flying around).

Firestorm has been solid for me. It comes in against Blue Control because the discard cannot be countered (and you can always discard at least two cards because there are always two targets), and it comes in against aggro. I play it instead of Leyline, which seems pretty useless (especially in today's Ichorid-less meta). I beat two Goyf Sligh decks with Firestorm in the Dutch Legacy Championships; I didn't need nor want Leyline even once during the entire tournament.

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Originally Posted by Mayk0l

I agree, Chosen is the only 'fatty' I've ever boarded.
It's not necessary anymore though. Firestorm rapes aggro more than Chosen ever will, that, and Firestorm gets online earlier and doesn't require a Dread Return (which can be hard to pull off on time without Bridges and burns flying around).

Firestorm has been solid for me. It comes in against Blue Control because the discard cannot be countered (and you can always discard at least two cards because there are always two targets), and it comes in against aggro. I play it instead of Leyline, which seems pretty useless (especially in today's Ichorid-less meta). I beat two Goyf Sligh decks with Firestorm in the Dutch Legacy Championships; I didn't need nor want Leyline even once during the entire tournament.

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I think i agree, but against aggro ie white winnie, goblins and fellows is really needed?? Who receives the damage from firestorm? creature or player?? If creatures, the bridges will be removed so how do you use firestorm. Indeed i'd like to know because y really like that card. Here i list my SB for comparisson:

3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of vapor
1 Ancestor`s chosen
3 Wax // Wane

In the past, you used Contagion to kill Yixlid Jailers (which also removes Bridges), now you can use Firestorm, because it kills Jailer too, and seems to be good against Aggro (you are playing more the control part then I think...)

Yeah, you remove Bridges, but than you can use Ichorid-Beatdown.
...also Firestorm can also deal damage to players (or kill them)...

YawG

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

In the past, you used Contagion to kill Yixlid Jailers (which also removes Bridges), now you can use Firestorm, because it kills Jailer too, and seems to be good against Aggro (you are playing more the control part then I think...)

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Indeed i never use contagion, darkblast or creepling fatige to kill yixlid, chain of vapor is pretty enough for him. Moreover, yixlid is nasty but not terrible for us, it allows you to draw for sb cards while you play small creatures from your hand.
I understand that this is a matter of game modulation when using firestorm or other kill cards.
When i play agains MUC or fellows (landstill) i simply side unmask, CoV and needle, maybe i should reserve unmask for combo and side in firestorm to keep my discard outlet against control. If i do this my side should chance, what do you think -3 Wax // Wane +3 Firestorm??
For prision effect i will depend on CoV (great card) and that's it.

I have an idea for an unconventional sideboard... Your thoughts on it please:

4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Stifle

Why Stifle? It helps against combo matchups (they dont expect it), but also everywhere a Needle helps, the Stifle helps. But this is still an idea, ill come around to testing. But maybe there are some insightful opinions about it.

For reference, I am using Mayk0l's main deck.

Mayk0l writes that you don't need Anestors anymore, when you play Firestorm, so why don't you exchange the (not-needed) reanimation-target, for some reanimater with utility (Sundering Titan or Empyrial Archangel for example)

YawG

Yeah sure, the Ancestor's is maybe too much... But it is the Stifle I want to discuss... It is an unconventional thing, but maybe people already tested it and found it useless.

...don't know about Stifle

I think Needle is better for the reason you can stop cards like Crypt, Relic or Deed, more than once...

...it's right that Stifle is better against combo than Needle, but against combo you have Therapys and Unmask nowadays, and Ichorid is an fast deck, too.

That means, I think Stifle is not needed, I rather use cards to stop gravehate, then play more cards that halp against combo, cuz we are combo, too somehow...

YawG

Stifle blows. It's a reactive card and will not be handy in any given situation ever. This list has proactive cards that do proactive things. This deck isn't about waiting around until they combo off. I don't think it's good against enough stuff to waste 4x slots in your sideboard. It may work once, but they will chant game 3. I think it's better to stick with Unmask and Firestorm (good against Ad Nauseam? They Ad Nauseam, you burn them for x after they are done ad nauseaming and you have cards in hand?).

I hate stifle in most lists. The only thing I think it's good for it Stiflenought and thrash lists.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by smoky squirrel

But it is the Stifle I want to discuss...

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Stifle is not useful here my friend. This card can't never replace needle. Although it is right that where needle helps stifle does, needle can be play once in your hand. If you are afraid of tormod (for example) you just play it naming tormod even when the opponent hasn't played it yet. Also, pithing needle stops mogg fanatic and stifle doesn't. If you "stifle" a fanatic you will not receive the 1 damage from it but your bridges will be removed anyway.
For combo if think that unmask + therapy are good and they also help us in the control matchup.

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

Mayk0l writes that you don't need Anestors anymore, when you play Firestorm, so why don't you exchange the (not-needed) reanimation-target, for some reanimater with utility (Sundering Titan or Empyrial Archangel for example)

YawG

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i really like the idea of Sundering Titan. theres a lot of thresh/dreadstill/rock decks around here so i'll try it at my next event and i'll bb with the results

also, has anyone toyed with the idea of using Sower of Temptation or Guilded Drake for dealing with dreadstill? i just searched for a while for a bunch of neat tricks we can pull. i also came across Gravespawn Sovereign and Noxious Ghoul as a long-shot possibility

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Originally Posted by akira073

i really like the idea of Sundering Titan. theres a lot of thresh/dreadstill/rock decks around here so i'll try it at my next event and i'll bb with the results

also, has anyone toyed with the idea of using Sower of Temptation or Guilded Drake for dealing with dreadstill? i just searched for a while for a bunch of neat tricks we can pull. i also came across Gravespawn Sovereign and Noxious Ghoul as a long-shot possibility

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Firestorm doesn't work out in this deck since the chances of casting it are too small. You only have about 8 sources of red mana unless your dropping coliseums like an idiot. Against aggro you just resolve your broken spells and win. Needle crypt or fanatic and stop losing.

Sundering Titan is pointless. Wouldn't you rather win the game? If dread return resolves you should pretty much win right there. dredging the rest of the deck with sage or going for the kill with fkz is all you need.

Passive cards make this deck bad. Unmask worked out because it isn't Force of Will. I don't think people get that.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Firestorm doesn't work out in this deck since the chances of casting it are too small. You only have about 8 sources of red mana unless your dropping coliseums like an idiot....Unmask worked out because it isn't Force of Will. I don't think people get that.

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care to elaborate? you're saying unmask works because it's not nearly as busted as force??

i agree with most of what you're saying about what should happen game one. the passive cards you're referring too are possible choices for board. passive cards do make the deck bad...for game one. there are also times when you may not see FKZ hit your yard ever game one, so its kinda nice to have a reliable alternative.

you say firestorm wouldn't work because theres only 8 red sources.
so does this mean we should cut putrid imp since there are only 8 black sources?
unless your concern is too many 1drops that call for mana other than blue. but then we can naturally assume the possibility of swapping discard outlets for another discard outlets.

needle solves a lot of our problems, but for the other cards it really depends on your meta. not every location will have everyone playing the best top8 decks in the format. there are decks that run meddling mage or gaddock teeg where we would find firestorm useful. a perfect example of my meta is the genesis/spore frog lockout. it rather annoying having to auto-scoop to this so again, firestorm would be a great choice

look, i get at what you're trying to say, but we're all trying to be constructive here. i really wish i could see FKZ in play every game and have needle solve every problem, but unfortunately it just doesn't always happen. instead of shooting down every suggestion people have made for the last 4 pages, how about posting an updated list with board? it would be much appreciated :)

I think he's saying Unmask works because it's proactive and not reactive. How good is Force to help you resolve Breakthrough+LED ?

Some interesting things have come up.

First, addressing Stifle
I completely agree with Dark_Cynic87. Stifle is a card we shouldn't play for the same reason I tried and discarded Orim's Chant. Although I think Stifle has its advantages (since it can be cast off of all the lands), it's still not as effective as you'd want it to be. You're right, it hits the same targets Pithing Needle does, but you're forced to have an open mana "at all times". You drop Pithing Needle naming Tormod's Crypt or Mogg Fanatic (and Stifle doesn't stop him as mentioned some posts above this one) and you're done, no more worrying untill they remove Needle. Stifle doesn't work that way. Not only because it works only once, but it's reactive. This reactive aspect of Stifle makes it worse in the combo matchup because on one hand you want to go LED/Breakthrough and go nuts, on the other hand, you want one blue mana to cast the Stifle in your hand. Also note, it's a one trick pony; Orim's Chant will stop you Stifling any combo player who's seen you pull it off. That's why I preferred Chant; you could at least respond to their Chant with one of your own, buying you a turn. Still, it's not good enough because it's reactive and takes the wind out of your own sails.

On Sundering Titan
I still don't get it, why would you run it? Sure, it blows up the duallands Thresh and TA are packing, but those are Matchups we shouldn't be worrying about. All these decks are boarding Tormod's Crypt. Other than that, you beat them. Why would you ever want to destroy their manabase when they need 0 mana to screw you over? Focus on the more important things; if you can stop Tormod's Crypt, you will win the matchup against any Threshish deck. Once more: sure, you can pack things that are 'effective against a lot of decks' but newsflash: Ichorid is effective against most decks out there. If you can make Games 2 and/or 3 look like Game 1 (by nullifying their hate), you'll win.

The same is true for Sower of Temptation and Gilded Drake. Dreadstill is an OK matchup if you find a way to deal with the Crypts. By siding in Sowers and Gilded Drakes you're giving them more targets for their Counters (for Dread Return), Stifles and Trickbinds and in some builds, Swords to Plowshares. The Dreadnought is not really a problem. And if you really want something against it, I'd suggest Ancient Grudge (remember; Dreadstill will always side out their Counterbalances against you, giving you a better chance of Therapying the rest of their counters away), but I've never deemed this necessary. I've always won the damage race when they didn't have counterbackup for their Nought; they still have to drop it and swing twice. I don't really see Dreadstill as a bad MU. Tutorable Crypts can get nasty, but if you can't stop those, Sower isn't going to help you either. If you want answers to Dreadnought, you're going to be dredging a lot anyway, if you're dredging a lot, you should be winning, not answering Noughts.

On Firestorm and the manabase;
I understand where the comment comes from but that problem, at least to me has been rare. The risk of not being able to cast your Firestorm doesn't weigh up to the advantage of when you can. Firestorm has won me too many games to be discarded that easily.
On how to use it; obviously, you're trying to reduce the damage as much as you can in terms of removing Bridges. You'll have to assess every individual situation and weigh the pro's and cons of killing their creatures. But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway.
On burning Nauseam players: I side them in, but it's a long shot. I've only managed to do it once myself. The problem is, you're usually going to need at least three targets because a Nauseam player will usually stop at three tops. Basically this means you need a Red Mana, three cards in hand and a target on the table, and that's a lot. As Stifle and Orim's Chant, Firestorm against combo has the same reactive role, and isn't that effective. The reason I side them in is because, at least with my sideboard, next to the fourth Unmask we don't have that much to side in and the MU is not that good. You could for example remove the Eternal Witness and an Ichorid to add 2 Firestorms. The effect will be minimal, but apart from the slim chance of burning out a careless TES player, you'll have a better chance at going crazy turn two with DAs, BTs, etc.
Combo has become a hard fight since they printed Ad Nauseam. I usually just hope to dodge the TES-like decks in tournaments. It's a frustrating MU, you Therapy their whole hand, they will topdeck Nauseam. You take their tutors, they'll topdeck a new one. I guess I'm an 'unlucky guy' when playing against combo, but I'm not too optimistic about it anymore. I used to be, when there was no Ad Nauseam but now, I don't know. The MU doesn't feel 'fair' anymore.

On Unmask
It's frigging gold. Stop gold-fishing the deck and take it to an actual tournament, then play it. It's solid.

Thank you so much for your report!
When you say: "But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway."

You are completely right, we have to find the equilibrium!

I am still using the normal board of:

4 firestorm
4 pithing needle
4 chain of vapor
1 unmask(3 maindecked)
2 ray of revelation

Still seems really good to me. Only change I could see is -2 ray +2 Wispmare.

Why should Wispmare be better than Ray of Revelation?

YawG

Wispmare has the offhand chance of creating Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below.

Unmask is also good because it can get rid of any hate that you want while requiring you to pitch a BLACK card, not a blue card. Extirpate is a really risky card to use against Ichorid, and once you play Unmask, it's a much weaker card. Not only can you get rid of Extirpate game 3, but you can also force your opponent to possibly pick the wrong card or a subpar card game 2 as well.

The problem with running "cute" trick cards maindeck or even sideboard is that you have to run less cards like Unmask, Golgari Thug, or other good sideboard cards to have the space for it all and I don't feel that it pans out in the end. I used to run Gamble for a long time until I started losing because I didn't have Unmask to back up my hate or be the hate. Most decks in this format can't beat you unless they hit you with Extirpate correctly and I will take all of the free wins I can get.