wall of omens just seems bad in this deck, it just sits there and doesn't do anything helpfuil, sure you get one card out of it, but after that it does nothing for you at all
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wall of omens just seems bad in this deck, it just sits there and doesn't do anything helpfuil, sure you get one card out of it, but after that it does nothing for you at all
I guess this thread is broken, but just in case it is not, have you seen the White Weenie that top8'ed in SCG LA?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-[Deck]-Death-and-Taxes/page91
It has very few similarities with D+T (well, both are mono white ;) ), but maybe incorporating Squadron Hawk isn't a bad idea. I've thought about it before and dismissed, but what do you guys think about it?
That was me who piloted white weenie, and i got 15th not top 8. That being said, Squadron Hawk is amazing.
EDIT: I wrote a tournament report for anyone who's interested:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...h-White-Weenie
I tried the Hawk out and was not impressed. Maybe I just got thrown against some terrible matchups for it, but there weren't really any cases that I was too happy to see it. I liked it against Goblins, giving me chump blockers long enough to get Sword of Fire and Ice online, but in most matchups it was a 1/1 flyer. I got 2-for-1'ed several times with Fire/Ice, though it is nice that they can block and kill a Vendilion Clique. Overall I think that they have their uses, but I wasn't too impressed in the end. Against an aggro heavy meta I'd keep them in to block dudes for a couple turns but I don't see much other reason to have them.
well it depends on how you would see it function. as for me i since i have a high amount of 3cc i need the wall of omens to hold off my opponents 0/4 is a solid creature that could block opposing creatures if your opponent wants to go through he/she must use a removal for it. late games i could re use its draw via flickerwisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
I don't like jotun grunts bec i need an early blocker to hold off aggressive decks. jotuns are nice against tarmo and kotr but needs enough cards in the gy to provide atleast a decent amount of time in the board before it dies to its upkeep.
@squadron hawk
i think is a nice card advantage card but seems abit weak unless your running fauna shaman or cards like Empyrial Armor and Empyrial Plate. non the less the pressure of landing 3 more creatures with evasion after the 1st especially if you run equips could give pressure to your opponent.
At first glance I'm against the idea of adding walls to this deck, as they have very bad synergy with equipment. However, a couple Wall of Omens may not be bad, as they hold aggro, the cantrip effect is very interesting and it gives the cantrip effect to Flickerwisp, too. In theory, they're never a bad topdeck.
The bad thing about cutting the Grunts is that you got weaker against graveyard strategies, at lease pre-side, but I don't know how relevant this is. Loam is not very common nowadays and 2 Grunts aren't enough to hold Vengevines, Dredge or Reanimator.
About Squadron Hawk, I don't think there's anything I want to cut for them. Also, It doesn't seem good until turn 4, when you can play at least on of the Hawks you fetched. Anyone disagrees?
I think Squadron Hawk is terrible. Fetching 3 1/1 flyers isn't really card advantage when they don't really do anything. Sure, it's an evasive body to equip, but that's it. We already have access to bigger bodies that actually do something.
Same argument can be made with adding Wall of Omens. Sure, you draw a card, but you just spent one on a body that can't even attack.
This deck handles aggro decks quite well already, so additions like Wall of Omens and Squadron Hawk are pretty weak.
I don't see hawk being as powerful in a deck like WW or DnT as it is in something like Blade (I'm dropping the Caw, cause it sounds silly to me) where it gives you cards to put back ontop aftera brainstorm/jace activation, gives you a shuffle effect, etc..
Just doesn't seem to be as powerful without the blue to back it.
I agree with your statement here, the Death and Taxes deck, not green and taxes or junk and taxes, already has plenty of very good inexpensive guys to play that are better than the wall and hawk in a vacuum. Then the argument goes the same way with the other versions of taxes where there is access to other colors to add other great cheap creatures like goyf or bob. I just can't think of anything I would even consider cutting for the hawks or walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by nwong
I already had suspicions, you beating me down in Vestal reinforced my thoughts. 4 creatures is nice, but they're still 1/1's. Getting some muscle is far preferred. From what I've seen, this deck performs best when it tries to be the aggresor instead of sneaking around and filling the hand up with 1/1's. They're nice chump blockers when you're the slower deck, and they are good filler material if you know you're gonna get hit with some Hymns. Otherwise, I vote to play a creature with balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
I don't know how you guys do it and most of you keeps saying that DT has a good MU against traditional zoo and jotun will be good enough to handle them. In my playtest vs traditional zoo if i don't get to disrupt there lands early its almost game over. Thats why i opted to use the wall over jotun grunts to hold them off until i could setup my board.
What list do you use?
Lands [22]Quote:
Originally Posted by nwong
2 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
10 plains
Creatures [25]
4 mother of runes
2 wall of omens
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
3 phyrexian revoker
3 mirran crusader
3 managar of corondor
3 flickerwisp
Spells [13]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 jitte
1 sofi
1 sols
2 cataclysm
Leonin arbiter helps tons against zoo. If you can get him in turn 2 and then waste a land, it's likely that they'll be stuck on 1 or 2 for quite some time. Surviving the first few turns is typically all you need for zoo, though it is usually easier said than done. I think lavamancer is the biggest concern, but turn 1 nacatl needs to be answered as well.
If that's the list you used to test against traditional zoo, then I'm not surprised zoo is a problem.
Jotun grunts help a lot since it's the only creature that doesn't die to burn. Getting one down buys you a couple of turns, plus it allows you to empty their graveyard so they can't use lavamancer. This is why it's better than Wall of Omens at holding zoo off.
More spot removal would help too. Oust is great against zoo. I don't like PtE, but it works too.
If I were looking to cut something, it'd probably be the crusaders. It's a beast when equipped, but all it does is make the win faster ie. win-more. The correct equip on ANY creature will usually get there without the need for doublestrike.
arbiter will not last long enough in holding off your opponents especially against zoo. unless you land a turn 1 mother that doesn't die.
as for jotun, i used to run jotuns over wall of omens , yes it helps against tarmo and lavamancer but a good zoo player will just wait for your jotun to die on its own which usually dies in 2-3 turns. for me not long enough to help you setup against fast decks. but whats worse about him is that is a dead card early on thats the main problem i had thats why i switched. i feel in order to use jotun efficiently you need to have more spot removals and several fetch lands, i don't like oust... i want a permanent answer i was considering sun lance but never tried it. maybe because it can't deal with pridemage, kotr and mor.
as for mirran sader being a win more card.., as for me his not, his a solid muscle creature against rock type decks his protection and able to hold off enemy goyfs or kotrs is pretty helpful to help you stabilize board position and once an equipment hits the board he suddenly becomes a threat that needs to be dealt with by your opponent if not he will wreak havoc.
i've also tried Epochrasite, his good if you have a vial online but if none his crappy... and oh... zoo decks runs null rods and revokers at times in there SB so more pain for DT...
If the "setup" that you're referring to is getting a stoneforge out, searching for SoLaS and getting it equipped to something, that usually takes 2-3 turns. Cards like Oust/Jotun Grunt will get you there.
As for rock decks, sure, the pro green is nice. Just pointing out that rock decks don't run very many creatures. As long as you can deal with Bob, you're usually fine trading cards with them. Your beaters are evasive and theirs aren't, which makes a huge difference.
erbs, you are not seeing things clearly.
If you have one card that prevents Zoo from attacking for 2-3 turns, that is a fabulous hoser in this deck. Luckily, it does a lot more than that, but if that was all it did I would advocate playing it for sure.Quote:
as for jotun, i used to run jotuns over wall of omens , yes it helps against tarmo and lavamancer but a good zoo player will just wait for your jotun to die on its own which usually dies in 2-3 turns. for me not long enough to help you setup against fast decks. but whats worse about him is that is a dead card early on thats the main problem i had thats why i switched. i feel in order to use jotun efficiently you need to have more spot removals and several fetch lands, i don't like oust... i want a permanent answer i was considering sun lance but never tried it. maybe because it can't deal with pridemage, kotr and mor.
The wall can not kill anything when it blocks. So the opponent can send his guys in with impunity and just deal up to 3 fewer points of damage on the way for a few turns whereas a creature that prevents the attack in the first place buys much more than that. I think we can agree on these things. Wall gets you a card of course. Well, a Vialed-in Grunt can usually do the same. So you have:
Wall of Omens: often better card advantage, never a threat, does a lesser job of preventing early damage
Jotun Grunt: dies after only a few turns when used early on, no card drawn, bigger problem to early attackers, is an actual serious threat as well as disruption
The basic premise behind the aggro versus control matchup is that aggro desires a fast kill while control has the advantage of inevitability. The problem with Zoo will always be that you die before you stabilize. That is 100% of their gameplan which is why we are control when facing Zoo. Why do I give a crap about drawing an extra card when I have inevitability from the other 56 cards in the deck? What I really need for two mana is something that actually deals with the problem - early damage. A good Zoo player will NOT wait for it to die in many cases, however, because he understands what I just explained. He will attack into it, lose a creature, and deal some extra damage to you. That is fantastic - and is the reason why a Grunt puts them in such a bind. If he hasn't got a Path, he is seriously hindered.
If that explanation is not enough, ask yourself what you asked the rest of us. Why are you having a hard time with this one when others are not?
One more thing: Against Zoo, extra removal is the best tool. Use Oust.
Quick report from yesterday's tournament. 63 people, I did 4-2 into 11th place. My list is the same I've posted some pages back (monoW with 4 Revokers MD), with the SB slightly modified (-3 Condem, +3 Tariff, -1 Absolute Law, -1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, -1 Runed Halo, +3 BFT)
Goblins (2-0) : I open first game with Mother of runes, Stoneforge Mystic finding Jitte, and draw SoFI. Game two I have 2 Burrenton Forge-Tenders from the sideboard, draw Jitte and win from there.
Team America: Game 1, I keep a doubtful hand with 2 Karakas and Aether Vial on the play. He forces the Vial and Wastes the Karakas in his first turn, giving me two turns to draw lands. I draw a plains and a Rishadan, and Jotun holding SoLS finishes him. Game 2, we waste each others' lands, but I have more lands than him. Jotun comes again. After paying his first upkeep, my opponent's had 6 cards in his grave, 2 Undergound Seas and a Phyrexian Revoker naming Vial, while I have the Jotun, an Avenger, a Rishadan Port and another land. I tap one of his lands in his upkeep, he responds by playing braistorm and dazing himself returning the tapped Sea to his hand, then replaying the Sea and casting Tombstalker. I cast StP in the revoker, activate Vial to put Flickerwisp into play removing the Tombstalker, and attck FTW.
CounterThopter (2-1): First game I end him too quickly. He plays a Blood Moon and a Jace TMS only, and as he was desperate to drop Blood Moon to nullify my Karakas, I put him on some kind of Show and Tell. Because of this, I my sideboard plan is completely wrong, and I lost game 2 badly. With the right sideboard, game 3 is a lot easier.
Affinity (0-2): First game he had a ravager, and after that an Etched Champion that gets lots of +1/+1 counters. Second Game, StP and a late Revoker are not enough to fight second Turn Ornithopter with Cranial Plating and Ravager with another Cranial Plating.
Dredge (2-1): Jotun Grunt shines in the first and third game. Game 2 I see no hate piece, get him to 6 life but he comboes me out.
Mono Blue Control (0-2): A very unexpected deck, with 20+ counters, Jace and Shackles. I don't know what he's playing and wait to drop Revokers game 1. He eventually controls the game. Game 2 he Forces my first turn vial, Spell Snares my revoker, get my sick Mother of Runes with Sower of Temptation, and beat me down with a Sower of Temptation while countering my fliers.
Overall a good result, but I still need to learn how to sideboard against some matches. But I'm feeling more and more comfortable with the deck.
Piloting Zoo at my last tournament, I realized that while my approach to the deck was pretty legit, I often tried to act a bit too controllish and that's not really how the deck works.
After getting hold of a playset french Stoneforge Mystics (yeah, I'm a sucker for french cards. deal with it.), I decided it's about time to build something akin to the Green and Taxes lists I've seen floating around these forums.
This is my take of the deck and I'd be happy to get some feedback from the more experienced players concerning both the list and my individual cardchoices.
// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest
// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Mangara of Corondor
// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 AEther Vial
As for the manabase, I think 6 Fetches are enough. From what I've seen, DnT decks often play the control role against opposing Aggro decks and playing too many fetches kinda contradicts that plan. Thus, I added Razorverge Thickets to help out with color stability, though it makes me a bit more susceptible to Wasteland. Running Temple Gardens is a no-go for me, since this would contradict with what I said about Fetchlands and Aggro.
I have come to love Noble Hierarch. She does so much - she makes Daze a much worse card against you, helps out with equipping and can even get into the red zone if the need to do so arises. And she improves GSZ by a ton.
Mother of Runes is a very annoying card to deal with, she protects equipped dudes and she's a staple of this archetype, from what I know. From the games where I've had to play against her, I can say she's incredibly potent and a worthy inclusion.
Qasali Pridemage as a 4-of because Enchantress is a deck where I play, as is Affinity - and Exalted is pretty good when you have a Goyf-stall or when a huge Terravore shows up.
Only 3 Goyf because he's just not as powerful as he was before - however, he's still one of the most solid creatures in this format and a threat by himself. Plus, Goyf + Equipment = sad opponent.
3 SFM because she's CA and the equipments play a big role in the deck. Having access to one and providing a body for it is huge. However, drawing more than necessary usually isn't the best.
KotR is big, toolboxes and beats face. Nothing more to add here, she's pretty much Tarmogoyf 2.0.
The Terravore is in there as an answer to Knight-stalls and as a lategame-trump.
Mangara is recurring removal and furthers my manadenial-plan. She also deals with Jace at times.
StP shouldn't need an explanation. I chose it over PtE because at times attacking my opponents manabase is the best way to approach a MU and stabilizing it is pretty bad. The lifegain isn't the end of the world.
Oblivion Ring as a 1-of for a possible E Tutor target, should I utilize such a SB. It also answers Jace and Elspeth or that huge KotR on the other side of the table.
Jitte and SoFaI are my weapons of choice when it comes to equipment - Jitte is Jitte and SoFaI gives me relevant protection + removal against tribal decks + card draw.
GSZ adds a punch to the deck for the long games and can tutor up anything from solutions for pesky artifacts/enchantments (Qasali Pridemage), to big dumb dudes (KotR/Goyf/TVore). It also ups my Gaddock Teeg count, should I feel the need to bring them in.
Elspeth as a 1-of pretty much serves the same purpose as Terravore - she's a card that can singlehandedly turn a game around just by showing up. She provides me with bodies for my equipments and she can give my dudes evasion.
Vial was a logical inclusion, as I wanted to utilize Mangara and it gives me the ability to aggressively tutor for Wastelands with my KotRs.
As for the SB, Gaddock Teeg, some GY Hate, Ethersworn Canonist, Krosan Grips, Kitchen Finks, Choke, Enlightened Tutor - everything is possible.
Some of the DnT/GnT players got some input for me?