What does that mean? :rolleyes:
Printable View
What does that mean? :rolleyes:
They side in grip for cb/top/dreadnought, sower is stronger in this deckQuote:
Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire
Artifact/Enchantment removal is limited. If you use a Kgrip on Control Magic (or whatever) instead of Dreadnought I'm happy with it. They have to choose the targets better..
I think the point is that with control magic, they would get to make the choice that would benefit them the most. If the creature you took was important enough for them to chose to trade for a grip, then you'd probably want to keep it, and sower would allow you to do that.
i used to play sower in my Ur list in the sideboard for a while i liked itQuote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
EXACTLY... you give them options, and they always choose the one you don't wantQuote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
like this :Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [M10] Island (1)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DD2] Daze
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
The deck is more control like Ur version.
In my opinion 2 Dreadnought is not enought and 4 Daze are too much.
-1 Daze + 1 Dreadnought +1 Trickbind and play 61 cards and you're fine.
61 cards is ok for this deck. And for the side Sower is fine..
I have seen alot of Dreadnought lists and they each have their merit. The only thing I am going to say is that 61 cards is never alright. Yes, it is going to be very few and far between when the statistics behind having 61 cards is going to catch up with you, however, it is poor practice and poor knowledge of one's own deck to not be able to identify what card is least important to you (to cut to 60).
qftQuote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
Has someone tried with MD spell pierce ? I know it seems quite weird, but in fact the card is very good against many threats that we cannot deal with : vial, CotV, ... I know that EE can get rid of that crap, but it is only one-two cards (trinket takes time to get it).
It is also very efficient to protect our nought against early swords, etc...
I would try it in the slots of CB...
I have been working on a Ugb Noughtlist, and been following this thread for a while.
Most people seems to play Ugr or something similar. Is that thanks to the fact that it has been proven the best list?
anyway my list as it looks right now
MD:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
3 Snuf out
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Underground Sea
6 Fetch
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical
2 Island
2 Open slots. Played 2 EE in the open slots before. Now im thinking about 2 Thoughtsize, 2 more counters (Spellsnare or something) the 4'th Confidant and another counter (maybe exchange the lone counterspell for a spellsnare at the same time). Im also thinking about having two Vendilion Clique in the open slots. I might also up CB/Top with one each.
SB:
3 Reliq/crypt/ravenous trap
3 Hydroblat
3 EE
4 Mutilate (the reason for the lone bayou in the main)
2 Sower of Temptation
The sb is definatly a work in progress. Experienced some problems against aggrodecks last tournament so thats the reason for Mutilate. I chose Mutilate over Damnation becouse i want my goyf/nought to survive at the same time as i kill their creatures. I chose Mutilate over Infest becouse i want to be able to kill 3/3's and eventually 4/4's.
Things that differ my list from the lists i have seen:
1: No standstill. I have confidants in its place. More aggro, Idealy more cards.
2: No manlands. Not as good without Standstills and Cutting the manlands opens the possibility to run a tighter manabase.
3: Snuff Out for creature kill. I love free spells. The avarage cost of the deck is rather low (around 1.5/card), so 3 snuff out, 4 FoW aint that bad with confidant, even thou it might backlash sometimes.
I played a tournament with this list last wednesday, and went 2-3.
Played against:
aggro elf. He ran me over. To much creatures, with converted manacost between 1 and 4. My maindeck EE sucked.
ANT: CB/brainstorm/top won me game two. FoW on my starting 7 won me the first. He opted for ftk figuring i played Solidarity and didnt want me to have landdrops and possibility to go off in respons (i mostly do).
2 Decks that i don't remember. Won one of em anyways.
TempoThresh. he won game 1, i won game 2, he won game 3. I won game two thanks to stifle/waste on his tight landbase, and an early nought when he didnt have mana for Krosan Grip. Game 3 was tight, but he manage to handle my 4 Gouyfs.
hmm, this post grew rather long. Anyways, any comments on the list or my thoughts? Anybody playing a Ub or Ugb list care to share their experience?
I think that looking at the future of Dreadstill as a future without Standstill as a good thing. My issue with this deck was always that it tried to play an early tempo game very similar to Canadian Thresh but just decides to give up on that strategy the second they drop a Standstill. I have found that every Standstill results with your opponent popping all of their fetchland and a good possibility that they will stabilize under it followed shortly by them dealing with your threat.
The logic for the original inclusion of Standstill in this deck was to make up for the card disadvantage of playing Stifle->Nought. This logic however seems particularly flawed in that you only need the card advantage to make up for this play prior to actually playing it; meaning, Standstill is almost always a win more for this situation (the Nought having already resolved).
Dark Confidant, although netting less cards off the start guarantees a steady supply (if it sticks) of cards to keep yourself ahead of your opponent every stretch of the game. You can play the tempo game from start to finish with little concern for them stabilizing when you are unable to play your stifle affects. As an added bonus, every creature removal (besides burn) is a piece of creature removal that doesn't hit a Dreadnought.
A few things need to definitely be considered if you plan to run such a list though... First, you likely need to run a 6 Stifle package because you want to be able to do the disruption game and get your Dreadnought out fluidly. The next thing to consider is, you want to make sure you are making the most of every turn, for this reason, my list pulled all of the Spell Snares from it, to ensure that my counterspells are never situational, no matter how affective it may be in the meta. This last option is very much my opinion and may or may not be the right play.
This is the list that culminates my logic on this version:
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Trickbind
4 Stifle
I really don't think that Snuff Out is affordable in the life department due to the amount of aggressive decks you will play against that run burn spells. Thoughtseize seems more fair for you as a spot removal spell that also allows you to keep well ahead of your opponent every step of the way.
One last note:
In testing I found that this deck still could suffer from just being behind the game. It is quite possible that my logic on Standstill is flawed and that you really only need a 2/2 under a Standstill to "get there." This deck may be lacking some vital components that make a successful deck and I am in no way advocating that this or any Bob-nought list is tournament ready.
What are you talking about?? I have done loads of testing and tournaments and know this deck in all it's possibilities. I tried cutting a card, then another one and so on. In the end it happens that the deck plays a lot better with 61 cards for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
I'm not sure what the psychological term for this, but that is really in your head. It could be that you feel uncomfortable in the cards you cut so it will always feel like it is running more smoothly when the card is not cut. I have seen this many times in people and the true test will be when you have someone else test with your deck, they can give an objective opinion on what they are happy and not happy to see. Just keep in mind that statistically, it is impossible that your deck is playing better with 61 cards.
Realistically, although the difference may be negligible, you will lose games that are down to the wire because you need to see one card and instead you see another one. This can be demonstrated in not "getting there" or not seeing that one clutch card you need to win via Brainstorms or tops. You can not tell me that you don't lose games. It is hard to chart what percent of these losses are due to that extra card, but those losses do exist.
Sure there is a difference statistically between 60 cards and 61. But it's really small so I don't care. Testing showed that my deck worked better like this for me and my friends. It's just a point of view. You are free to play 60 cards I'll stick with 61.
Btw I disagree on Confidants in this deck. I play it as pure control and tried Confidants ages ago, but found that they improve our best mu's and worsten our bad mu's. Sure, they are strong, they can win you games, but also a standstill with mishra's can.
It's just a different approach to the deck. And Confidant is not Tempo btw.. It's card advantage in a few turns.
So finally I have tested Dreadstill as well (a few times on MWS tho) and I have a question concering Daze. It seems like it's the most terrible card in the whole deck. Although Daze is very strong in the earlygame, it doesn't synergize with Standstill. I would also guess that taking landdrops back is not what the deck really wants.
I don't know, but I'd change this constellation:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
to
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Snare
I know Disrupting Shoal is somehow a disadvantage, but it really helps you to force through either 2nd Turn Standstill or 2nd Turn Balance without loss of tempo. The disadvantage taken is gained back from Standstil or Balance.
Thoughts?
You're right it is opinion. It also happens that mathematically 60 is better. I'm glad your deck performs better for you with 61, but don't come on here exclaiming that I might be a witch for suggesting that you just need to tune your deck down to 60. I'll still maintain despite your opinion that with enough quality testing you should get your deck down to a 60 that works, but to each their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
Also, Confidant in itself may not directly be a tempo card but it is a tempo enabler. It does not prevent you from casting reactive tempo cards such as Stifle (which Standstill does) and it also swings which in itself provides a threat your opponent has to deal with (be it removal, killing you, or other). Lastly, the cards in Dreadstill itself are built to play more a like a tempo deck than a control deck (for the most part). Stifle, Trickbind, and Daze also function better as tempo enablers than as control pieces. The longer the game goes, the weaker these cards will become, that is not iconic of control cards. I feel fairly confident that you are mis-assigning your role or just mis-categorizing your role in a match.
I agree that Daze is really not that great in Dreadstill, that Is the reason I went down to 2 in the first place, you want your opponent to be playing around it, but it actually isn't that good, I went back up to four recently because people have become more than accustomed to the fact I was only playing 2 and stopped playing around it (for the most part) so by playing 4 I was having people walk into it left and right. As for Disrupting Shoal I feel that the addition card disadvantage probably isn't the best for the deck reducing daze and playing more threats etc is probably better, but if you were to play a different counterspell, I would probably give misdirection a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
One of the strong points of this deck is that it can play both the contron and the tempo parts accordingly to the opponent deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
Btw this discussion is not leading to anywhere. I have done my testing and tournaments and hope you have done yours.