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I very briefly tried Impulse a couple years ago. Grisly Salvage is better if you want this kind of effect (which you probably don't).
There are some blue nice blue options for the Garruk/Meren/etc slot. Kynaios and Tiro is Zenithable and does not use the grave, but it does draw the opponent cards.
Meddling Mage is a nice versatile hatebear, and probably the blue card we most want to use. Which is kinda damning with faint praise.
Has anyone figured out any secret tech for the Painter/Grindstone matchup? I keep running into the same guy at the top tables of the monthly Legacy 1K event I play in, and it's always a quick and merciless thrashing. If you can't win the dice roll and get GB online via a basic forest and a Mox, you're fucked.
I tend not to have a problem with the matchup using my list. I just aggressively mull (to 5 if need be). That is a 97.8% chance on the play, and an 80.6% chance on the draw of you having a hand that can make green post-moon (not counting fetch+drs openers). Those are pretty good odds IMO.
I'm playing a mainboard Pridemage, so getting out of a moon (or the combo) after that is not a big deal. Playing 0 Lilis, an extra Zenith, and currently 1 dismember all also help against blood moon.
Postboard I bring in 2 Revokers and 1 Rec Sage at the minimum.
If you are just looking for some spice to put in your board against the combo, Pulverize (or its little bro Crash) does the trick. Tho chalice is pretty good at turning off the combo already.
Adding even 1 SB card is almost certainly being overprepared for painter under normal circumstances, but if you have the room and this is your biggest problem then that is probably fine.
I am actually testing a list with no red but with blue in. It does not seem promising since pfire is to important for our strategy.
The list has Jace, leovold, intuition and a singleton daze for the beats. It greatly improves our sideboard against combo with 2 flusterstorms and 2 vendilion cliques but it bashes our grindfest matchups.
Gonna do a side event in madrid with it and will report.
I am also trying a few cards in the stock list that have been fine.
1 grim Flayer for 1 Dark confidant - great zenith target when Knight is not viable, matches up well against TNN and is a great option against our burn matchup/ biggest con is that RiP is a bit better against us
1 Toxic Deluge for 1 Liliana - meta purpose
1 Collective brutality for 1 gaddock teeg - sold my teeg by mistake(thought I had 2), collective brutality is fine, helps with the burn matchup, when it is good it is a bomb, otherwise is kinda lack luster.
Played the monthly this Saturday, quick overview below:
BUG Delver (0-2)
Goblins (2-0)
Burn (2-0)
Deathblade (2-1)
TOP 4
Charbelcher (1-2)
Hey All -
Played this deck to a second place finish at a 70 man local event. Was running thespian / DD in the main, but never found a time where it was helpful or I really wanted it. I get that it acts as a tutorable "I win" button with knight, but I never really see that opportunity happening where it isn't a win more. Was hoping to get a sense of where y'all find it most useful.
Thanks!
Hey,Quote:
Originally Posted by Leenus
The combo often works as a get out of jail card. When facing for example Bant or Tribal decks(Gobliins, Merfolk) you are either grinding out the game or you suddenly face a couple of true name nemesis or a wide board that you can't deal with. That's when you pull the trigger with a couple of activations(especially if you already have 1 of the pieces).
It is also good that it is a recurrable threat and you can tutor for it if you need to end the game fast(against combo for example).
Having Thespian's Stage in the deck is also very good against Lands, but be sure to side out Dark depths because it can be a liability.
The Most lackluster the combo can be is against Miracles and Death and Taxes. You don't want to get behind on lands and they have many ways to deal with it. Still you can steal a first game in a blink of an eye.
Just for some perspective, last tournament was facing Death Blade and my board consisted of 2 knights, 1 thespian's stage and 3 lands. His was 1 SFM, 1 Clique, 2 TNN(1 equiped with SoFaI).
I was at 7 Life and was able to decay the SoFaI, float mana crack with knight, float another one and crack for DD and block Clique and Steal the game.
One can argue that he should no have attacked with Clique, but it was a matter of getting a karakas next turn and bounce it.
Hope that helps.
Has anyone tried Saskia, the Unyielding? Is zenith tutoreable
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/c16/41.jpg
Feels like a win more. I cannot imagine situations where this would be better then KotR or where this has impact on a negative boardstate.Quote:
Originally Posted by bizdoin
I was pretty disappointed that she was a purely aggressive card. We are not an aggro deck, so this card isn't helping anything.
Only place I see bringing this card in is against Miracles.
Fringe situations where you go for it to kill a jace because of the haste. Still you got better options with haste.
Probably too slow for combo/win more
Just learned that you can maze of ith at the end of your combat to untap a knight or whatever creature.
- Have a life from the loam in the yard to clear your top 3 for Sylvan library
- If you have a thespian stage out and they needle it you can copy a land to get around it
- Float mana when you sac a land to knight (I feel stupid for missing this)
Is that about the all of the tricky interactions this deck has?
Edit:I should read the card (thanks apoc6)
If they revoker your stage, tell them to read their card ;p
There is a bunch of stuff like that.
Fetchlands are removal spells for attacking X/1s. I've killed plenty of Young Pyromancers with a sneaky dryad arbor.
Punishing Fire interacts very positively with your Sword to Plowshares, and with opposing Batterskulls.
Meren + Dryad Arbor give you infinite chump blockers.
Knight on defense can just about kill anything in combat, as activating knight to get a wasteland and targeting your own land is a pump of +3/+3.
Knight also benefits from dredging Loam. With a cycle land this happens at instant speed. Scooze does too, sorta.
If you have a Chalice in hand, but a Teeg on the board Karakas helps you deploy those cards in the right order.
Karakas also protects your Legends.
Oh, and there are the 20 different ways that library and loam interact. the sweetest of these is that dredging twice lets you keep both loams at no life cost.
There are more that are either more obvious or more niche.
I played a league with this same list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14103&d=283863&f=LE and I felt like only 3 decay and 2 library made the deck a lot less appealing, I went 1-3. I was always wanting to draw my library and could never draw it. Played the league with my version with 2 library and 5-0 the league. The basic swamp has been great. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14017&d=283156&f=LE
Thank you. I've been trying to figure out what to cut the Deathrite for, and Swamp makes a lot of sense. I might cut a Heath for a Marsh Flats, but maybe that's wrong. I still prefer Maelstrom Pulse to the 4th Decay, but you've clearly got results to back up your approach.
Hey guys,
Will play the finals of our yearly league next weekend and need to bounce a couple of ideas.
The finals (presumably) will consist of mostly grindy non-blue decks (Jund, Maverick, D&T) with maybe a couple of delvers, 1 Miracles, 1 Elves and 1 or 2 fast combos(Tes/Belcher/Sneack&Show)
My list is currently the following:
1x Badlands
1x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Cabal Pit
4x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
1x Toxic Deluge
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Sideboard (15)
1x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Golgari Charm
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
Current thoughts:
- Put the DD+Thespian back in
- swap cabal pit(good vs prelate) for an extra zenith
- drop the leylines but it is a gamble if anyone brings BR Reanimator(never did but you never know)
- really like the toxic deluge for the 3rd lili since D&T and grindness is assured
Help is appreciated.
I mean how good is the Leovoid? I guess it would be nice to have a 2nd hate bear. I like the sideboard(14 out of 15 of what I'm playing, choke for c priest is the only difference). I feel like prelate isn't as big of deal after sideboard with swords, deluge, and garruk. I also haven't tested cabal pit but does seem like it could be very useful. I'm not a fan of dd and ts because of the mana is already terrible. I have added a basic swamp and it's been great, with delver, lands and death and taxes being popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Leovold is great in pretty much all matchups, almost always a 2 for 1 and deactivates(kinda) opposing ports/wastelands. It doesn't cause too much strain in the manabase since I run a sole tropical but it is an ongoing experiment.
I played with a swamp a while back and it was great. Maybe I'll cut the cabal pit for it. I am also not sure about playing 27 lands without TS+DD. Maybe I can cut it for another card.
With the expected meta I won't run a choke, but I am also not sure on the containment priest since it will be low impact.
Would certainly run a tabernacle for this field if I could get my hands in one. Any ideas for it? Either a great card vs glass canon combo or a grindy one(extra planeswalker maybe?).
I am a huge fan of 2 library for the grindy match ups. I also don't have a tabernacle in actual cards but do on mtgo and I don't play it. I think a second golgari charm would be my next suggestion because of its utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
The biggest mistake people make with this deck is playing it like pseudo Lands. Life from the loam is a great tool this deck has but it can easily function without it. You should always have a good reason to dredge, if you plan to do so. Do not dredge just because you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitend89
I've been thinking about picking this deck back up with GP Louisville on the horizon. I;ve played it in the past two GP's and have gone 5-4 both times :cry: , but it seems to be pretty well positioned going forward. I anticipate a lot of miracles, eldrazi, D&T, and grixis delver.
Concerning tabernacle, I think it has some narrow spots where it can shine, so it depends on your SB. For me personally, I have lost to grixis just shitting out a bunch of tokens via pyromancer when I had a chalice in play. Also, depending on how you feel about your elves match up, it could be good. Overall, it seems to strengthen our already good match ups, so I can't recommend to buy a $1000 card for a maybe-board card.
Since I am expecting a lot of grindy matchups(>50%) I am thinking of putting teeg in the sideboard and upping the decay count. The extra land will probably become DRS again.
Take out teeg!? I guess if you play in a small meta where combo and miracles isn't played I could see it? Let me know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I know for a fact that in 20 persons only 1 will be playing miracles and max 3 combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by NEELEY
And of the combo players 1 of them is S&S.
I think I will take that gamble. He will stay in the sideboard for this one.
Hello guys.
I have been following this thread for quite some time. I myself am playing 4c-Loam (I don't like the term Aggro Loam) since six months and I just started to monitor my winrate. In the last 33 Games I have an astonishing 72% Winrate, but there are quite some fringe decks like Kiln Fiend aggro and affinity (legacy versions of the modern deck) in this strange lineup.
My question is: how do you approach the GXx Matchup, in detail: how do you deal with Maverick? I somehow can't really win this matchup (overall 0% winrate against them) because I seem to just don't know what to do. After sideboarding, it tends to get a bit better with access to e.g. Toxic Deluge but preboard I always lose to them on board (I always seem to not draw my removal or can't get a Punishing Fire Combo online) and they start overrunning me at some point.
Any advice on this matchup would be great.
My current list is as follows: Loam on tappedout
Sorry for any english mistakes and have a nice day :)
Drinkme
I've played mav a fair amount. I don't see any swords to plowshares in your SB, but they shine in this matchup. I'd say this matchup is about even, but theres so many ways to build it its hard to know. I approach the matchup similar to D&T.
I played a bunch of games against mav during r/xmage's legacy league. The most active player there was on mav ans we played like 4-5 matches. I won all of them. Game 1 I tried to force through a Marit Lage if I had the opportunity (and create the opportunity if not) otherwise Pfire lock and sticking a bob are good ways to win. Postboard deluge won me every game in which I resolved it. Decklist in the sig as always.
I'm seeing an interesting trend of people trying out a 1of green creature more "high end" than knight. I actually decided last Friday that I want to try 1x Meren in the main, and come here to see Leovold and Tracker filling similar roles. (tho IMO Tracker is a pretty serious mana investment)
Leovold sounds like a better and more mainboardable card than Meren, but you have to be pretty brave to venture into 5 color. I might try this in the future, with or without the trop.
I do, of course, play three swords to plowshares. :cool: Everyone keep's telling me, that the MU is supposed to be even or even in our favor, but I just can't win it :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitend89
Yeah, forcing a Marit Lage seems best, but how do you create the opportunity against opposing Knights/Wastelands/Karakas? I'm most afraid of the Knights in this MU and try to decay them ASAP, but if I can't get rid of Mother of Runes it sometimes gets tricky.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
How do you guys usually sideboard? I tend to leave 2 Chalice in on the play, 'cause they hit all their mana dorks and their swords (yours as well, I guess).
Leovold is on my radar as well, but I don't want to spend money on one right now, I'll let others test it and decide then.
Thanks,
DrinkMe
The way I tend to play the deck is accelerate out a knight on turn 3 and then use it to on their end step to find answers or stage-depths. If they don't get waste/karakas 2 turns in a row we can lage them. Their knights are the biggest problem to this plan. If they do get protected knights your outs are drawing more lands than them, or switching stategies.
Every opening hand represents a gameplan. Sometimes you only have 1 pfire so you have to use the pfire on DRS and waste them so they don't get to 3 mana while you develop your board. Sometimes you turn 1 a Library so you know the later the game goes the more your are favored, and you just trade aggressively. etc. Sometimes the gameplan of your 7 is meh so you try again with a 6. It is very hard to explain what exactly to do because of this.
My opponent was always soft to mana denial. IDK if that was typical but I cut him off of 3 mana a lot.
I took out all 4 chalices. They are a decay deck, the first dork turns off most of the utility (big difference between turns 1 and 2 for chalice), they also don't have thaat many 1drops.
I think I was -4 chalice -1 teeg +3 stp +2 deluge at the very least. rec sage is decent here as well as any anti-midange card (garruk etc) but I didn;t see anything else to cut.
Okay that already helps a bit, thank you for the advice. Cutting my maverick sparring partner seems to be hard, because he's going for basics a lot in the early game, so he'll get to three mana eventually and quite easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Since I'm only playing 1 Deluge, I'll board in Garruk I guess.
I'll report tomorrow after FNM and after probably playing against Maverick ;)
DrinkMe
My middle name is brave :cool:.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
In all seriousness, I tried without the tropical but sometimes it got stranded in my hand. Played a bunch against shardless yesterday, basically it was a decay-rod, and less decays on their hand more knights on our board.
@Drinkme How is Tracker faring?
Hi guys,
I have some questions, first on the main and second on the sideboard.
For the main I tried this list:
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun's Zentih
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badland
1 Barren Moore
1 Tespian Stage
1 Dark Depth
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
I think, the fourth decay is better than 1 pulse, the real question is, i want to play 2 sylvan, Deathrite shaman it is really important? And what about the combo DD + TS? I play on the MKM series Prague with the pretty same list, i didn't play the shaman for 1 trankil thicket more and I played 4 decay. I made 6-3, I lost on shardless BUG, ANT and Show and Tell Omniscience. And, what do you thing about playing 1 canopy instead of barren moor?
For the sideboard:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Swords to plowshares
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Lost Legacy/Slaughter Games/Containment Priest/other thinks
I'm pretty sure about the fourteen cards but for the fifteenth, I don't know, l like lost legacy because 1 mana less than slaughter game but he can be countered. I prefer 2 thalia on 2 canonist because thalia is better for much MU.
Sorry for my poor English
Welcome mate :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentofight
Agree with you in the decay>pulse.
DRS is usually a flex slot. In GP Prague was my 4th Decay, before was a 2nd lib, now is DRS again. Not the most important card but is a nice one drop that you sometimes want to GSZ for.
Would play an extra land with your list(prolly the thicket you cut). We run too many non-lands so with the DD I would bump it a bit. The 2nd cycling land helps a lot in the grindy matchups.
Sideboard is pretty much streamlined except the flex slot. I keep changing it and I believe it is meta specific(right now I am running Cont Priest).
And finally, when you make a statement like this "I prefer 2 thalia on 2 canonist because thalia is better for much MU." I feel the urge of asking you which matchups? I really feel Canonist is almost always better and more relevant in more matchups.
At least go with the split :smile: (still think 2 Canonist is better)
Maybe combo DD+TS take up too much space in the manabase, because I don't want to play less than 4 decay, for me the choice is between 1 DRS/1 Librairy/1 land. Or cut the combo and play more land...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I consider to play Priest, because more Show and tell.deck made result but I guess slaughter game/Lost legacy is better for this kind of MU. Persuade me!Quote:
Sideboard is pretty much streamlined except the flex slot. I keep changing it and I believe it is meta specific(right now I am running Cont Priest).
For me, canonist it's very great for Combo.deck but thalia it's better for other MU like Miracles, Shardless, Burn...Quote:
And finally, when you make a statement like this "I prefer 2 thalia on 2 canonist because thalia is better for much MU." I feel the urge of asking you which matchups? I really feel Canonist is almost always better and more relevant in more matchups.
At least go with the split :smile: (still think 2 Canonist is better)
The thing that I see is that Containment Priest gets there faster and the different matchups you want to fight. Priest gets you going against Reanimator, S&S and Elves while extracion works better against storm, s&s and miracles(it was good before mentor at least).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentofight
I feel we have more than enough hate against storm so I go with Priest. Still I don't dislike the other options.
The question is, do you want to bring her against shardless? or even miracles? we have so many good cards against those matchups and we are not able to cut that many cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentofight
The burn matchup gets a bit better but I am not sure if it is worth the slots for it.
you also have the case of having 1 stranded in your hand.
Maybe I need to try more games with canonist.
And lost legacy is playable or not?
What your favorite MU for this deck?
Hey guys, with the arrival of the Christmas holidays I have found myself with an extraordinary amount of free time.
With my newfound freedom I am thinking of writing a primer for this deck - my only credentials being my enthusiasm for my favourite deck in my favourite format.
I have a pretty in-depth understanding as to the philosophy and the card choices for the deck, though there are certainly areas that I am lacking.
Would anyone be interested in collaborating a tad with me?
In addition to this, the history of the deck is certainly the area of which I possess little to no knowledge - and any help in this vein would be greatly appreciated.
I have a large chunk of a primer written out here.
Part of it are a bit outdated, and other parts are pretty opinionated.
Never tried lost legacy, assume is kinda similar to games but the can't be countered clause was important against the likes of S&S and Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentofight
Lost legacy seems better versus storm and glass canons though.
Favorite matchups are Miracles and D&T.
Best matchups I will probably say Shardless, I feel so ahead on that matchup that if they don't have a list tuned to beat me, I don't feel I can lose(except mulliganing to oblivion).
@juzamjimjams
What are those holidays that you talk about? I don't seem to have them :(
If you need any help drop a PM. Can easily review or give ideas
Small FNM Report. We were 8, so we played three rounds. I Went 1-1-1 :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I was quite tired and overall not fit, so I'm okay with that.
Matchups were 4Color Delver (lose 1:2 - did draw only one Abrupt Decay game one and get murdered by two Tarmogoyfs, win game 2 and lose to not drawing decay again in game three), Bant Stoneblade (win 2:1 - game 1 two True-Name Nemesis slaughter me, game 2 and 3 I manage to stabilize with Toxic Deluge) and a draw against mono-blue control with Thing in the Ice (lose to not drawing abrupt decay again and then win with a lot of planeswalker value and marit lage).
I drew three Abrupt Decay in all of these games, which feels awful. I also got flooded a lot. This side of variance feels horrible, but it happens.
The Tracker was amazing, I'd say he was better than DRS, because he generated value against delver, when we were both topdecking and blocked down a Gurmag Angler. Overall a solid card, but it needs more testing.
A friend borrowed my infect list and won that thing 3:0 (against 4c Delver, Shardless and DnT I think).
DrinkMe
Hi all, I am relatively new to playing the Legacy format (though I have followed it for a while now), and recently finished building 4c Loam. I was immediately in love with the deck when I watched Tom Keating play it against Reid Duke on Miracles last year. Since then, I have kept up with the deck's finishes in tournaments and have frequented this thread often.
Since finishing the deck, I entered my first Legacy tournament yesterday. It was a monthly Legacy 2K event. It was a wonderful first experience, and I was fortunate enough to make Top 4 out of 32 players. As this thread has helped me tremendously, I thought I would share the results and my experience with you all. As tends to be my habit, I wrote a blog entry about my experience, which includes the decklist as well as a somewhat detailed tournament report. It's a little long-winded.
So I'll post a brief tldr here.
I played what I think is the stock version of the deck. 1/1 Dark Depths/Thespian Stage in the maindeck; 1 Forest, 0 Swamp; 1 Deathrite Shaman. The sideboard was: 1 Garruk, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 Choke, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Leyline of the Void. Prior to the tournament I was a little bit concerned about wanting to fit a Swamp into the maindeck, as well as 1-2 Containment Priest into the board, but was not sure what to cut for them. I figured Thoughtseize and Ethersworn Canonist are much more versatile than Containment Priest, despite having some doubts about my ability to play Thoughtseize effectively.
I was a bit fearful of Sneak & Show, and think I was lucky to have dodged them. I was aware of BR Reanimator, but think I was prepared for it. I didn't play against any Delver decks throughout the tournament (only one made top 8), nor Eldrazi or D&T. Overall, in 6 rounds of Swiss, I went 4-1 before ID'ing into top 8, and lost in top 4.
Round 1: BR Reanimator (2-1)
Round 2: UR Dredge (2-1)
Round 3: WB Midrange? (2-0)
Round 4: MonoB Pox (2-0)
Round 5: Miracles (1-2)
Round 6: Tezzerator (ID)
Top 8: Dredge (2:0)
Top 4: TES (0:2)
Overall I had a great run. I drew well, luck was on my side and I think I mulliganed fairly well. I'm aware of some misplays, and I still need to refine my sideboarding strategies.
In any case, thanks again. If you guys have any comments or suggestions as to how to sideboard against these decks (as well as how to approach the matchups), that would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
Well, had my finals and top8 only.... the tournament was shitty since 5 players did not show up so, 4 rounds +top8 brings a weird tournament.
R1: Miracles (2:1)
R2: BR Reanimator (2:1)
R3: ID
R4: ID (ALL PLAYERS ID THIS ROUND, -.- clean cut)
T8: Junk(sinkholes vindicates wastelands) (1:2)
Nothing real to say, the games were uneventful.
The highlight was having Gaddock Teeg + Leovold against miracles. He was suffering a bit.
Went for a 26 lands(no combo)/0 shaman/3 lilis/2 sylvans/1 deluge/leovold over teeg build with teeg over 2nd canonist in the board.
@imuZ
How did you sideboard against Miracles and TES?
EDIT: Just saw the blog post:
So.... Against TES, I think the you got there in the end. I would shave the loam for the sage!
Against Miracles I would do it like this:
+ Garruk, Sage, Charm, Deluge, Choke, 2 TS
- Scooze, Maze, PFire, 2 Mox, 2 knight
I am not really sure about this one, and I keep changing it.
If they have from the ashes I keep moxes in.
I some times do not bring Charm nor Deluge.
I think that matchup needs some discussion as in which position we should assume.