Indeed. They also incentivise your opponent to burn removal on them clearing the way for Nought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
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Indeed. They also incentivise your opponent to burn removal on them clearing the way for Nought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Anyways for the fun of it let's say we actually want to have Nissa/CB list. We're going to need slots, so it's to be an aggressive mana base of 18, maybe 19 lands. We have some amount of Nissa that we're doubling down on, so we're shooting for a higher creature count. In the spirit of @claulis' list:
--17 creature:
4x DRS
4x Mongoose (since the list can't run Delver or Lavaman that well)
4x Dreadnought
3x Confidant
2x JvP (SCM would generally require higher land counts and/or cheaper, non-engine, BUG-colored cards)
--18 land:
4x Wasteland
8x Fetch (maybe -1 Fetch for basic #2)
1x Island
3x Trop
2x USea
--21 Spells:
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Stifle
4x other cantrip, probably Ponder (maybe we're running Opt for the whole CB plan...seems suspect)
3x Daze
2x Trickbind or equivalent 2cmc cheat artifact or Vision Charm (probably want this on for the self mill option for the Geese)
--4 other:
2x CB
2x Nissa
The slots in such a list would be exceedingly tight, which isn't going to be apparent if the inspirational starting point is somewhere between "they are running Nissa/CB in modern, let's port it to legacy" and "having 4 copies of Dreadnought [read Felidar Guardian] and 4 copies of Stifle [read Saheeli Rai] with no other real support for the combo aspect is legacy viable." When you abandon the red in Dreadnought list, you don't really have the luxury of playing removal because you generally have to hit twice. In this way the life total reach of Bolt makes it an engine card which Fatal Push and Decay can never be (StP gain 12 mode probably makes it the next best, albeit strange, engine card that doubles as straight removal). When you are in the BUG colors of Dreadnought you really need to combine and layer very eccentric mechanics and synergistic interactions. To that point it's somewhat unfortunate here that Mongoose comes out as the best 1-drop option to pair with DRS as we are dragged away from our UB core. Also its shroud keyword discourages the self-targeting degeneracy that only a Dreadnought deck could want.
I will say congrats though to @claulis; you have correctly, if accidentally, identified that the new Nissa is a Dreadnought card. She is however an extremely specific tool for a trigger-nullifying approach, turn-ending approach, or more likely a manifest specialty approach. These are all interesting directions, as is your CB approach, but likely to be more fun than reliably consistent/good. It's also important to point out that CB is a simplistic card; you won't be picking up wins by undermining and exploiting mechanics to their fullest.
Why not something like:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage (I know Snapcaster is a large investment to rebuy a Stifle, but I feel like I always want Stifles)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dreadnought
14
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Vision Charm
3 Fatal Push
4 Bolt
4 Standstill
20 Lands
Board:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroclasm
1 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Red Elemental Blast
Obviously too many cards, but that's where I would want to be if I had the slots. Need to figure out where exactly I want to be.
-Matt
I have had this idea for years but never publicly stood up for it or even tried it myself, but it just feels so good that maybe I finally have to: How about you focus on the best 1-drops of the game and complement them with Aether Vial? The theory is that you can lead with Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Vial or Lavamancer and follow up with plentiful control elements until you win. Dreadnought is bigger than anything they can slip through so that's how you go over the top if you have to.
Vial also gives you another way to save your Stifles as you can use double dreadnought to land one. Not to mention those spicy end of turn -dreadnoughts.
Any obvious issues with this? Matt?
you're going to suffer a lot Chalice@1
Unless you can't slip in an early Vial.
Better not let that resolve then. I also have this principle of not playing Standstill without bounce spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
But that is not the type of problem I had in mind. Every deck has issues with specific cards and those you can handle with proper deckbuilding and sideboard. But is there something fundamentally wrong with the strategy? Something like if I have the setup of vials and 12-16 creatures, do I have enough slots left to cover the "control the sh*t out of the game" part of the plan? Or should I concentrate more on card advantage via creatures and ditch Delver which is essentially a vanilla beater?
EDIT: actually delver doesn't seem that hot since more creatures, vials, standstills and slightly higher land count contribute towards delver not flipping.
I just started drafting this.
A problem with the best 1-drop creatures in the game + Vial is that already you can't run Delver in a creature-heavy approach. The remaining best 1-drops are Goose, DRS, and Lavamancer...and none of that is blue, and two require continual sources of non-blue mana. If you're using 7-8 slots on Dreadnoughts and Vials, you're going to need pretty extensive access to hand correction regardless of what colors you're going with. The best sources of that are generally going to be at the 3cmc mark (Dack, TFK, maybe even a prison element like Leovold/Geier Reach Sanitarium) which means you need 19-21 lands (~3 basic lands in that which are preferentially fetched early) to reliably reach. Now let's revisit Lavamancer and DRS and note that they aren't going to play all that nicely with the idea of T1 fetch -> Island. It's a fairly odd place for your deck to be, 20+ lands encourages you to play Standstill while a focus on 1-drop creatures tells you to run only 18 lands (in a list choosing to forego Standstill). The combination of higher land counts with greater inconsistency [i.e. Vial is a bad topdeck] is generally the first mistake seen in brew lists here.
Vial isn't entirely unplayable, but at that point you're probably trying to attack the game from a U/W axis. The rule break you'd be trying to exploit is Hushwing Gryff cast EoT holding priority on an x=1 Vial activation (Dreadnought in hand). The 3-4 Hushwing approach will at least severely cripple a number of decks as it's quite good against like every DnT creature, SFM, Strix, Clique, and SCM (all seeing higher play right now). You get all the white SB cards, hatebears, maindeck StP (if included) reads gain 12 vs burn, Karakas, etc... but you'll still need to find hand correction and an engine type card which can deal with resolved Chalice [which is pretty challenging, if not impossible with white]. Honorable mention though to Sundering Growth in the Chalice killer/engine category; it's *really* close to working like a Stifle with keyword populate. With Vial deferring mana costs you'd also be able to brew around the 18 land mark, and that makes it friendlier to a 2cmc TFK type hand corrector (Perilous Research).
@sdematt lots of competition for slots in your list. Kinda need to ask if you want to be the 20-21 land Standstill deck or if you want to stick to the 18 land or even turbo approach (15-16 land, Petal x4) with playsets of Delver, DRS, Dreadnought, and 5-6 slots of Confidant [3-4x] and Flip-Jace [2x]. I will say though that Fatal Push is a bad card, it's a Bolt that won't take you from needing only 1 Dreadnought hit (down from 2). If you really want to dabble with Push + Dreadnought, you probably need to seriously consider Reanimate to play their deck too.
For either @sdematt's list or @Hopo's ideas, keep tabs on your creature types - are you ever going to reach a point where 1-2 Cavern of Souls is the right call?
I was just talking to my buddy about making a dreadstill list again, we were thinking torpor orb, and maybe eater of days for more pressure and dodges decay. also stifle-able
Decay is on the downswing and Fatal Push is on the uptick. Standstill builds have the land count to deploy SCM and recast countermagic, specifically after a Standstill gets cracked so not really playing nicely with Torpor Orb. To use Torpor, you're going to be more interested in flip-Jace and lower land counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
If you want the 2-drop artifact, it's probably Illusionary Mask. At this point Thing in the Ice is half the cost of Eater of Days, it's blue, and if you ever place ice counters on Thing in the Ice or let keyword defender stop you from declaring an attack, you're being unimaginative.
I think the correct way to play Dreadstill now-a-days is to not fully lean on Phyrexian Dreadnought to win the game. With Dreadnought being so easy to kill now (Push, Swords, Decay, Strix), you need another way to win the game if you don't find your Stifles or if your Dreadnought gets killed. I think Mishra's Factory is still a good secondary win condition in the deck but we need something else that can either put a fast clock on your opponent or has evasion. That's why people play Delver in Standstill decks because you can deploy a turn-1 delver then follow it up with a Standstill or Dreadnought.
I just personally think going all in on Dreadnought is a bad way to play the deck now. We need other win conditions that can keep up with what's being played now.
Went 3-1 last night with U/R version.
-R1 loss to RUG Lands 0-2 (heavily due to drawing Delta both games, which is supposed to be a Tarn able to find basic Mountain), pretty fun games though. Opponent brought the spice with Nissa (VF) and Chandra (ToD).
-R2 win vs Food Chain 2-0. Mana denial + Delver both games; after Decays a Dreadnought would come down.
-R3 win vs ANT 2-1, winning both post-board games. We had a real game one, and then played 'mulligan: the gathering.' G2 featured a mull to 5 before I saw a single land, Factory into Wasteland, 8 life later (2 Probe, 2 Fetches, 2x attacks) opponent kills himself with Ad Naus. G3 ANT mulls down to 5 and I'm on a mull to 6, Factory and Delver beats to 9 life and then he kills himself with AdNaus again.
-R4 win vs Infect 2-0. G1 trades with Glistener with Delver and can't beat T2 Dreadnought protected by double Daze. G2 he has to mull to 6, his opener is Fetch basic Forest -> Noble and Probe me, I deploy Delver. Next turn he plays Trop + Glistener, I BS on upkeep to flip Delver and swing in. Turn 3 plays Blighted Agent (Pyroblasted), attacked for 2 infect, I play land #3 and drop Standstill and win the 1-drop counterspell war and attack with Delver. T4 he forces me to draw 3 and goes for the kill with 2 pump spells, the second one meets FoW (8 infect); the game goes on but Factory x2 on defense and Delver on offense ends game ~3 turns later.
Even losing all 4 die rolls, these all seem like fine matchups for me. Aside from the suboptimal stuff (running at half Tarns and Flip-Jace over SCM), the SB should probably be looking for more of a plan vs SCM/Push/K-Comm, so maybe it's time to sleeve up some sideboard Dispels and/or Teferi's Response? Top decks (I think we were somewhere around 17-20 players) were Grixis Delver (4-0) and in the (3-0) bracket it was Elves, RUG Delver, and the old Twelve'r of Secrets. Other decks in the room not previously mentioned were Blade x2, Eldrazi, Elves #2, Aluren x2, Maverick, BUG Delver x2...so that is the 17, including my own, I can name.
The maindeck is pretty stock, 21 lands, 4x Delver/2xBig Grimmz (Lavamancer)/4x Dreads/2x SCM equivalents. On top of the 2x Lavamancer there are 5 other slots of burn: 3x Bolt/2x Izzet Charm.
Have a GPT later today, but won't be able to borrow Tarns so I'll probably just throw together a UB list, which is more fun anyways, even though I'll miss out on blackmailing opponents into letting me draw 3. :laugh:
@MrFrowny U/R might run 4x Dreads but it's hardly all-in, it's just another burn spell. The main reason you should be running Dreadnought is to always have a reason to use Stifle while ignoring large swaths of cards like Goyf/Gurmag/Equip/TNN/insert combo deck/P-Fire/fog blocking (Symbiote, Quirion, Scryb, Karakas). If there's an issue with the U/R version, it's that you're not as focused on undermining the rules of the game, and you're almost fair enough that you have to waste SB slots on yard hate.
This is probably terrible, but I really enjoy Dreadnoughts. Any thought to a UG list?
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force
3 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Berserk
3 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Blue Fetch
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
I understand the inclination to run Tarmo, b/c these colors don't really have a clean answer; but the more correct creature is more likely Nimble Mongoose. There is still a problem here though, we're in some of the worst [reasonable] colors for straight-up Dreadnought play...and any time we're trying to play fair you can't justify passing up black to run the playset of DRS.
Nothing is really going to go all that wrong with 21 lands (4 Factory, 4 Wasteland), playsets of Delver/Goose/Dreadnought, and at most 6 other cards that aren't able to flip Delver (4 being Standstill). The problem is you're saying Dreadnought kinda has to hit 2x for me to win and there's really just not enough slots left to adequately protect one, and you can forget about any non-stack removal. There are integral problems, but it'll break even in a local meta because the cards around it are generically good. It has a pretty low plateau for edging out wins based on player skill or mechanics subversion, but again generically fine.
In terms of what U/G Dreadnought can do when they really push the mechanics envelope, you're probably talking about some of the most fundamentally unfair exploits possible in magic - but luckily for everyone else in the format a few key effects do not yet exist at the right cmcs. So outside of the truly abusive "I untap, you can't" meeting "I use phasing, and let's skip all the untap steps" there are simpler combos which require less mechanical mastery and attention to layers of redundancy. One of the least difficult using your Goyf approach would be to build your own 7/8 Goyfs and have a deck built around alt-casting that playset of Not of this World; I doubt this all that good though. In general the level of power you have to beat in U/G for as few pieces as possible are:
-resolve Greater Good, cast colorless quad-Ancestral, draw 12, discard 3. (this is a BUG build, there's no way you are passing up DRS)
-play Mosswort Bridge, respond with Worldly Tutor, put Emrakul on top. Next turn cast Dreadnought with trigger on stack cast Emmy for :g:
I'm just going to assume that you don't want to delve into the world of face-down casting or madness, so I'll suggest this:
-add black, play DRS.
-add a playset of Quirion Ranger.
-play 18 land Standstill with ~12 color producing lands/fetches cutting a Factory and Wasteland.
-go for the ideal turn 1 of Trop -> Quirion. T2 float U, bounce Trop, replay Trop, Standstill.
-draw your cards and burn them out with DRS on Quirion steroids or drop in the Dreadnought.
To the Grixis idea...I like it. I think Gurmag Anglers and Pushes could be just what this deck needs.
// Lands
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [MM] Island (3)
2 [EXP] Scalding Tarn
4 [JGC] Polluted Delta
3 [JGC] Wasteland (2010)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [JGC] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FRF] Gurmag Angler
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [C15] Brainstorm
4 [DD3] Daze
4 [MPS] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AER] Fatal Push
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Lightning Bolt
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MM3] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [JGC] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [DDK] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C13] Rough/Tumble
Probably could use some Probes somewhere in the 75, but I think that with the success grixis tempo
is having with Gurmag...we have to at least entertain the notion of possibly using him too.
You may want to explore Vision Charm. I was playing it locally and it was incredible. It not only helps power out - and - protect Phyrexian Dreadnought, it mills four cards and allows for turn-two Gurmag Anglers.
This is starting to look a lot like powered-up version of modern's grixis shadow and I like it. Which leads to Kolaghan's Command. I have nowadays problems imagining about any BRx deck without it and dreadnought decks needs efficient cards as the main wincon is both fragile and card intensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
You couldn't be more right. The mill 4 is pretty crazy with Gurmag. I wonder if playing a build with 2 charmsQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
and 4 Gurmag might be correct. It seems pretty crazy.
I guess charm + gurmag is like a second version of stifle + dreadnought in that it takes multiple cards to make a huge fatty?
Charm is more like a super ritual before casting Angler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
There are probably some suboptimal card choices in that list. I think that any time you're looking at above 18 lands in a deck with Wasteland and Stifle (for Karakas), you really have to start asking why we're using Gurmag over Tasigur. That extra point of power matters against ~1 in 10 paper matchups where you'd want Angler to answer an Angler, but you're probably losing overall win % against the field by skipping out on Tasigur activations in a deck that clearly has the mana to do so.
As a very minor point when we're talking about Vision Charm, we at least have to acknowledge the nuances of priority; Vision Charm puts exactly 5 cards into your yard while maintaining priority into your delve creature - there's an axis of interaction here for opposing DRS especially to time walk you. When you're really going on the anti-value delve creature plan you're probably moving away from Standstill, and towards Petal because now you're talking about pretty reliable T1 Anglers (non-Fetch -> cast Petal -> cast Vision Charm off land -> 5 in yard, priority not* passed, announce Angler, pay black component with Petal and then delve it away [yes, it does work like you want it to] with the other 5 cards in yard and not even Extirpate could have stopped you). Potentially 8 shots at the turbo T1 fatty (Angler or Dreadnought) isn't exactly great deck design, but it's probably mechanically more sound than Vision Charm/Standstill & not-Tasigur in the sense that it's better positioned to creatively abuse the delve mechanic...and let's be honest, who doesn't want to see a deck have 3 cards in the yard, only a Petal on board, and legally cast Rite of Undoing.
This list is playing a pretty straight-up game, so Vision Charm probably isn't a good fit - any slots you're making for it are coming right out of those 7x removal slots. If you are cutting removal for Vision Charm, you probably just get rid of red entirely even though Fatal Push is a vastly worse card when it comes to making a single Dreadnought hit lethal. Alternatively you could stay on 3 colors, bring Bolt up to a 4x, Fatal Push to a 0x, Vision Charm 2x, and then take that last free slot and cut into your Spell Snares to bring Thoughtseize up to 2-3x....but,
...Other problems still exist in this list, largely centered around Standstill being in many ways unsupported. This list only runs 8x threats which can be deployed before or during a Standstill, and that number should probably be closer to 10-12x. Where is the DRS in all of this? That seems like the 1-drop threat you can protect with Daze, replay your land, and still cast a turn-2 Standstill. At lower threat density, you will have to protect that creature [with Daze or a fairly aggressive FoW]....so we're on a turn 3 Standstill plan...and that plan isn't conflicting with resolving the huge payoff creature? The timing windows this deck is trying to hit seem confused with Standstill in the mix. The other issue, not related to Standstill as much, is that we should probably see at least 2 slots dedicated to SCM or flip-Jace.
Staying on the normal gameplan I'd probably go more in this direction:
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x USea
2x Volc
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest [20]
4x Delver
3x DRS
3x Dreadnought
2x SCM
2x Tasigur [14]
4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Bolt
2x Thoughtseize
4x Standstill [26]
The sideboard presented has 1-2 more red blasts than it needs, 3 indefensible Spell Pierce (your list had 15 other counters in the 75), some pretty questionable Sulfur Elementals (Izzet Staticaster has wider implications, Dread of Night harder to remove, etc), and two Cages when yard hate outside of Surgical is probably overkill. Lavaman and the small board-wipes seem fine, but the list is really lacking any way to deal with Chalice.
So I decided it was time to Enter the Fist at GP Vegas, and while it was good fun the run was less than optimal. I played the full 9 rounds, but it stopped mattering after round 7 when my record went to 3-4. As all good Stifle/Wasteland/Daze stories begin, I lost all 7 die rolls.
--Round 1 vs Jund Lands (2-1). Kind of at a loss for words as to how winning this is possible, but apparently it is. Game 1 goes horribly as expected. Game 2 is won on the back of Teferi's Response, Snapcaster -> Teferi's Response. Game 3 is a pretty long grind getting opponent down to 7, with Chasm in play opponent declines to block SCM with his 3/2 Tireless Tracker, I phase Chasm out, SCM connects followed by double Bolt. I'm gonna chalk this uncharacteristic win up to it being 9am(ish) and not enough coffee for either of us.
--Round 2 vs old DnT list badly in need of updating (0-2). Game 1 opponent is pretty much on one land the entire game, and having gone first the Vial dodged Daze. Game 2 I probably could have won even with opponent seeing 5 of the only 8 cards in that deck that really matter to us (StP and Flickerwisp). There's quite a bit of variance here, but this DnT was running 3-4 Revoker and an amount of Serra Avenger still and while that's pretty suboptimal, a large part of the outcome is due to always having Revokers for Grim Lavamancer at the right time (after proactively putting blind Revoker on JTMS). Of note: in both games he yolo'd a 2/1 Thalia into active blocking Factories.
--Round 3 vs Belcher (1-2). Game 1 opening hand of Daze/Stifle does nothing on the draw vs turn 1 Empty. Game 2 he loses to FoW, but again had a turn 1 hand. Game 3 I mull a 7 of 4x lands, 1x Standstill, and 2x cards not named FoW. Hand of 6 is Daze, Stifle, Delver, Fluster, FoW, Standstill so I keep (pretty sure that's correct with scry and 12 draws that result in blue mana, 3 draws of FoW, and 1 draw of Commandeer). Again he goes for the turn 1 with Land Grant -> Tinder Wall -> Pyretic Ritual -> Seething Song, which is FoW'd. Other cards in his hand are LED, REB, and Burning Wish (otherwise I could have waited to FoW the Wish). There are something like 7 draw steps following that, but I only find a basic Mountain and end up dying to 6 gobbos. Interested to hear thoughts though - would you guys mull to 5?
--Round 4 vs Burn, Searing Blaze subtype (0-2). Both games are close, every card burn has must matter and they do down to the last. She is especially fortunate in game 2 to avoid all of the three misdirecting spells I board in as any one of these is game-losing. I'm quite happy with this matchup in general, and don't feel the need to deviate from how the deck is built to win most of the time vs Burn.
--Round 5 vs OmniSneak (2-0). Game 1 he goes Volc -> Ponder, shuffle. Wasteland targeting Volc ends the game. Game 2 I prioritize basic Island over a Volc -> Lavamancer -> T2 Standstill opener that would lose to Blood Moon. Cantrips from the opponent on his turn 3 rather than SnT, so Standstill comes down on my turn 3. Turn 4 is Sneak Attack backed up by FoW losing to FoW + Divert. Opponent can't beat 2nd Standstill creating 3 layers of countermagic
--Round 6 vs Elves (2-0). Game 1 he mulls to 5 (or maybe 4), leads with Dryad Arbor. Wasteland targeting Arbor results in a long slow death to Lavamancer lock. Game 2 I'm pretty confused by the opponent's fairly erratic behaviour of picking elves up for no value and never pursuing the mediocre beats vs a Standstill deck...regardless, I play Illusionary Mask turn 2, play 2 Dreadnoughts face down turn 3, play Standstill turn 4 just in case they have a hand with removal, and swing for 24 trample. I'm pretty sure that even if he had Natural Order for Hoof, I just choose to block rather than stop if from resolving.
--Round 7 vs UWR Delver (1-2). Game 1 is the pretty typical Delver game where they go first, they win. Game 2 is actually the first time in the GP that I can actually Stifle a fetch (like 95% sure on that)! It's a pretty normal Delver game until Dack steals Jitte. Game 3 is a long fun game, Wastelands and Stifles abound and his deck is limping along on 2 basic lands and I nearly stabilize on 1 life. I was thoroughly confused by his deck having 20 lands, no SCM, and a SB plan of RiP and Cage against my 2x SCM. :eyebrow: This opponent was an absolute joy to play against with quick & clean actions, tight play, and keen understanding of when priority is passed at meaningful junctures.
All in all a very strange day of legacy, really in every regard. The deck itself felt fine, and against that list of decks I think an expected result would generally be between 5-2 and 6-1. Never seeing Grixis anything, Reanimator, Gurmag/Goyf, Leovold, nor Chalice/TurboMoon made the day feel quite a bit different than I expected it would be. There's a lot of mentioning Grim Lavamancer above, but I only ran 2x main and the number felt correct - the skewed creature sets I faced make it seem like there should be more. Round 1 and 2 put me at a predicted record of 1-1, but that highly atypical Belcher outcome in Round 3 put me on a strange course.
Anyways here's what Dreadstill looked like in the hands of a UB-prefering pilot :tongue:
Lands (21)
Volcanic Island x3
Island x2
Mountain x1
Mishra's Factory x4
Wasteland x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Polluted Delta x3
Creatures (12)
Delver of Secrets x4
Grim Lavamancer x2
Phyrexian Dreadnought x4 (aka Twelver of Secrets)
Snapcaster Mage x2
Enchantment/Artifact (5)
Standstill x4
Illusionary Mask x1
Spells (22)
Brainstorm x4
Force of Will x4
Stifle x4
Daze x4
Izzet Charm x2
Lightning Bolt x2
Trickbind x1
Wild Slash x1
SB (15)
Flusterstorm x2
Pyroblast x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Invasive Surgery x1
Teferi's Response x1
Teferi's Realm x1
Reality Ripple x1
Dack Fayden x1
Volt Charge x1
Commandeer x1
Divert x1
Misdirection x1
Went 3-0 tonight in weekly legacy, 19 players was a pretty good showing for Thursday night. Re-sleeved UR Dreadstill, pretty much the same list as last post. Meta was:
-Lands x1
-DnT x2
-Elves x2
-EsperBlade x1
-Infect x1
-Shardless x1
-Grixis (+ Decay) PWs and big spells pile x1
-OmniSneak x1
-Grisel'Lands x1 (this is a strictly better name for Reanimator Depths)
-NicFit x2 (rough estimate on number of copies)
-Dead Guy Ale x1
-Portent Miracles x1
-U/R Delver or Grixis Delver x1?? (hard to imagine I was the only Delver deck in the room)
-Unknown on other two decks, but don't think there was any Storm there.
Anyways was lucky to win three die rolls playing vs OmniSneak, DnT, and Elves in that order. Other top table at the end was R/G Lands winning vs Elves.
OmniSneak 2-1: pretty sure we each mull to 6 in each game. Game 1 opponent eventually resolves Sneak Attack and puts in Emrakul, I have Stifle for the trigger but topdecked one too many Fetchlands and die at 15 life. Games 2&3 are fairly similar where opponent finds Boseju but never hits SnT (or finds it after his own Blood Moon), likewise I never hit any Wastelands but will find Commandeer twice and I get to play SneakStill which is always a treat. Game 2 I got to EoT Sneak in Delver, flip to Brainstorm, hit for 3, Stifle sac trigger. Game 3 I live the dream and haste'y Sneak Dreadnought backed up by Trickbind for the win.
DnT 2-0: Game 1 opponent has no Vial, the 2 drop triggers a Standstill and meets Daze, and Mother of Runes will prove ineffective vs 12/12 colorless trample. Game 2 the turn 1 Vial runs into a Shattering Spree before it can get to x=2, the game is a relatively long land fight (opponent will present Waste for my Volc, and 2x Port for my basic Island. Eventually I hit Wastelands for either Port), followed by running Dreadnoughts for the win vs board of Mother, Thalia w/ SoWP equipped, and Gideon of the 2/2s.
Elves 2-0: Game 1 Stifle the fetch, play turn 2 Illusionary Mask, and Dreadnought gets there with second Stifle for Rec Sage. Game 2 opponent opens with GSZ for Arbor which will meet a Wild Slash. The turn 2 is DRS + Thoughtseize (seeing hand of Dreadnought, Stifle, Izzet Charm, Standstill, FoW, Island), takes Stifle and is punished by topdeck factory into Standstill [losing the race due to life loss]. Thoughtseize #2 is played cracking Standstill and sees another hand that can't really be disrupted, chooses to discard a Grim Lavamancer. Other elves are being played as well as a mini-Glimpse, but 2 turns of consecutive Dreadnoughts vs only one Decay takes opponent from 13 to 1 and dead to Bolt with DRS activation on stack.
Playing against SnT is always fun even when I'm not on a UB build, but the real fun in Dreadnought comes from games like I had in round 2 and 3 where each time you see a "must deal with" card like Glimpse or Mother, you have to correctly decide whether or not it matters; because of that every game is different. Sadly there was no fourth round vs R/G Lands, so no lethal Wild Slash attacks through Maze/Chasm nor any phasing out of Marit Lage tokens.
In terms of the new set, the Embalm and Eternalize mechanics are worth looking at in a Standstill shell. Bontu's Last Reckoning is terribly unimaginative, but powerful (especially vs TNN); I expect a few decks will use it as Toxic #2, particularly if they run phyrexian mana on top of all that. Claim // Fame is a card where Shallow Grave or Unearth are simply better; I wouldn't invest in that unless you think it's going to be a thing in modern (I guess it's a pretty easy 1x in any Grixis Shadow deck). Refuse // Cooperate could probably be played in Dreadstill, if for no other reason than to ruin someone's day (which makes it an awesome card for any cube). Driven // Despair is a pretty questionable 5th Glimpse of Nature, again unsure if modern will make this card valuable at all. Dunes of the Dead has obvious applications. Fraying Sanity has no use outside milling out Miracles. Hollow One is a fine honest wincon in any Faithless Looting deck. Leave // Chance seems like a Bomberman-ish type of card. Liliana's Defeat is probably a pretty safe investment, but I think Fatal Push will always be ~2 or 3x more expensive; just a great SB card even though it can't exile a Marit Lage. Oketra's Last Mercy seems like a great SB card for white Vial decks that just hate burn. Ramunap Excavator is cheaper than the $80 artifact version; expect pricing differential to settle around JVP vs SCM ratio. Rhonas's Last Stand is >100 dollars cheaper than Goyf and still not good vs Fatal Push; still probably a reasonable card to speculate on. Desert of Progenitus probably worth owning two of. High marks for Striped Riverwinder for Reanimator strategies looking to kill control. The Scarab God - thanks R&D, I really wanted to play legacy against a 4/4 zombi'fied Veteran Explorer.
For us specifically:
Nimble Obstructionist is better than Clique in a deck running Torpor Orb, and I wouldn't spend more than 3-4 dollars on it. Survivors' Encampment is a bigger mistake than Holdout Settlement as it picks up a named nonbasic type (anyone who knows Dreadnoughts knows how to alt-cast Daze with a Desert). We are still however waiting for better "Desertcycling" than Shefet Monitor...when this is legacy-costed, we will simply be waiting for high cost disparity morph creatures (low cmc, high unmorph cost) with broken enough "when turned face up" text. Tragic Lesson seems great, but I don't see this being better than SB Teferi's Response in UR Dreadstill; maindeck use seems legacy/vintage viable, but I don't think that's still a Dreadnought deck. Expect Tragic Lesson to be in better decks than As Foretold; it should replace any copies of Pieces of the Puzzle in an OmniTell deck. Abrade is going to be pretty good for Dreadnought in general. Within a few weeks we should expect to see SB Ancient Grudge numbers get decimated. Moreover, this is a card that UR Dreadstill should be looking at seriously for maindeck play in a Bolt slot (way more reliable than Smash to Smithereens), and second copy sitting in sideboard. Unlike other decks, you can really make the case for Abrade maindeck (21 lands and a quick look at the cmc of our threats) especially if you expect any amount of Chalice in a local meta. Mirage Mirror isn't a real card, but when it drops to ~50 cents I may pick one up for the lulz.
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Well hopefully you guys got your Abrade playset when they were ~75 cents apiece. :tongue: On the plus side there is some game day thing that is happening soon with the full-art version that hasn't been released yet.
Haven't been able to play legacy as much as I'd like, but did make it to another weekly legacy 3-rounder on 7/27. Went 3-0 again, winning the first two die rolls, and losing the last. Meta breakdown:
Portent Miracles x2 (one was U/W Karakas B2B and the other had more of a Blade plan)
Sneak and Show x2 (both without Omni)
B/R Reanimator x1 (first round bye)
DnT x1
Elves x1
Belcher x1
Infect x1
Food Chain x1
Maverick x1
AggroLoam x1
LED Dredge x1
Czech Pile x1
Grixis PWs x1
U/R Delver x1
and me on U/R Dreadstill
Top tables were Infect vs me and Belcher vs ??? (DnT maybe). Belcher got there through miracles and SnS, but don't know if they won or lost in round 3.
R1 vs Grixis PWs (2-0): Turn 1 Delver, opponent plays DRS. Delver flips to FoW and Standstill deployed. Game devolves into opponent having to crack 3 Standstill with cards like Ensnaring Bridge, LotV, and JTMS. Game 2 some mana denial, Standstill draws the countermagic and Dreadnought protected ends game. Learned more about the deck; it seems to be 11 counters maindeck (split of FoW, Pierce, Cspell, and Fluster), 6 (?) walker slots, 6 board wipes (Damnation & Deluge), 4 DRS, 2(?) Leovold, 2(?) E-Bridge, and some unknowns.
R2 vs Food Chain (2-0): Turn 1 Delver, kill your DRS, swing for 1, Delver eats Decay. This opener is followed by Stifle -> SCM Stifle destabilizing his mana, and SCM beats getting enough damage in to end the game with a pair of Bolts. Game 2 has slower openings, there’s some silly things in this game like Delver played and dying to an x=1 Ballista, but the game is really dominated by keeping him off basic Island. A Standstill is cracked which enables running Dreadnoughts, while there are two Decays out of the opponent, the first is Commandeer’d and turned on his Baleful Strix. The closest he will get to combo in either game is resolving a Manipulate Fate – unlike most blue decks in the format, this isn’t a must counter spell. If they want to dump 12 cast from exile power (assume Food Chain in play) into the yard as they gang block a Dreadnought they will need a Gurmag to re-exile them; any time they cast this spell you'll need to analyze whether or not it actually matters versus speed of game. I haven't checked much lately, but there's a good chance that Trinket Mage/EE/Pithing Needle rules out both Fierce Empath and Gurmag - this can infer that DRS is the only way to get cast from exile out of their yard.
R3 vs Infect (2-0): Game 1 they are facing a nightmare hand of burn spells and Wasteland for Inkmoth. After going all-in on their last infect creature and losing the fight they concede hellbent to empty board and 3 cards in hand. Game 2 I have to mull an amazing hand featuring Wasteland, permission, and Big Grimms [Lavamancer] due to no colored mana. Mull to 6 is a pretty terrible hand (2x Dreadnought, 1x Standstill) but it has perfect mana and a Fluster so I keep, scry a land to the bottom. Opponent opens with Git. Probe, Trop, but no threat. I topdeck a Wasteland and decide to take out the Trop – there’s definitely merit to rolling the dice on Blighted Agent and laying down some long term plans for Standstill with an answer for Nexus, but I go for the play that delays a Blighted by one more turn and forces them to prove they can alt-cast an Invig. Infect fetches out a Trop and plays Hierarch, leading to one of those games where Blighted will be chipping in for 2 infect a turn and me joining the intricate race that is matchup once I can play an eventual Dreadnought. After I go up to 6 infect, I swing in forcing a block and leave opponent with only enough Infect threats to deliver 3 damage. Usually a pretty fun matchup since both decks are pretty much doing the same thing with different cards; one card you will really miss if you don't run it is Vision Charm, this card is amazing for phasing out a pumped Inkmoth or even stripping them off Forests to force Invig casting before combat.
I think it'll be another two weeks before I can play again, but will be able to make it to 3-round and the 4-round weekly events.
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Recap of 8/10 (3 rounds, 2-1) and 8/12 (4 rounds, 3-1)
No information on complete meta of 8/10, won first and last die rolls.
R1 vs Maverick (2-1?): memory is a little fuzzy on this one, but cracking Standstills and outpacing removal led to an eventual loss to burn spells.
R2 vs Grisel'lands (Reani'depths) (1-2): Game 1 opponent's opening hand has Stage and Urborg and some other cards that die to a FoW, they topdeck Depths before I can find Wasteland. Game 2 opponent can't get their game plan started through Stifle targeting Marsh Flats, turn 3 Dreadnought answered by Marit Lage which is promptly targeted by Reality Ripple and heads off to exile. Game 3 pretty sure ended with a Grave Titan. Being on the play has so far always determined winner in a sample size of 6 matches and 2 post-board games for fun.
R3 vs Elves (2-0): Both games had opening burn spell for their first guy; in second game I think opponent was on mull to 5. I recall being able to execute some Standstill and quick clock which allows my countermagic to ignore Glimpse.
Complete meta breakdown of 8/12:
Portent Miracles (U/W) x1
B/R Reanimator x1
Elves x1
Shardless x2
Czech Pile x1
Pyro-focused Czech Pile x1
Abzan Blade w/ blue for Ponder/BS x1
Bant Deathblade x1
EsperBlade x1
Maverick x1
Burn x1
Infect x1
Pretty ugly field but I luck out and get B/R, Infect and Elves. Sadly did not get to dodge the fair soup entirely and had to play vs Abzan Blade w/ blue (I'd rather have faced Miracles or Burn).
R1 vs B/R (2-1): Lose coin flip, opponent mulls to 6, reveals Chancellor to my hand of Standstill stuff and FoW/blue cards. Turn 1 Thoughtseize self, Chancellor to yard. Island and Delver pass. His turn Exhume is FoW'd. Delver flips, beats commence, and Factory & Standstill deployed. Opponent resolves Reanimate on Chancellor, but is now losing the race. Suicide attack comes in maybe 2 turns later with 3 attackers, followed by Bolt. Game 2 Iona on blue comes down before I can do much, concede 2 turns later. Game 3 is a crazy game, I manage to get a Delver and Factory down before opponent cant turn 2 Sire. Delver won't flip, and we get into a race for 2 turns, once I get down to 6 life I have to double block 1/1 Delver + 3/3 Factory to kill Sire. I manage to find a Standstill and deploy it (first Sire trigger knocked out 2 other Factory from hand) and we play draw go. Life totals are ~12 to 6 (and then 11 to 5 as we each fetch once) as I get up to seventh card in hand, I do some math then decide to crack own Standstill, resolve and cheat in Dreadnought, then deploy a new Standstill. In response two Entombs come out grabbing Tidespout and Grisel. Opponent cracks Standstill and I've got a hand of Commandeer, FoW, Misdirection, SCM, Delver x2 vs their hand of Thoughtseize x2, Reanimate, Animate Dead, and Fetchland. There wasn't any way to play through my hand (Delver in my yard to if I want to Misdirect Reanimate), and I end up with stolen Animate Dead and Tidespout; opponent chooses to end game by resolving Reanimate for life loss equal to current life.
R2 vs Infect (2-0): Both games are a pretty fun dance and Standstill is getting in the mix to slow game down to manlands/Delver vs manlands/exalted Blighted Agent. Never got to resolve a Grim Lavamancer, but other burn spells give me an edge overall. Last game comes down to an attack with 2x Inkmoth, 1x Blighted (I'm at 7 infect); I block with Delver and opponent uses last mana to Crop Rotate with no mana floating. I let it resolve through Daze (don't want to die to a pump spell) and he puts down Pendlehaven whose activation is Stifled. The counterattack is lethal.
R3 vs Abzan Blade w/ blue (0-2): un-linked value cards played in no specific order wins when you can't deny mana as there is nothing to disrupt.
R4 vs Elves (2-0): read any of the other write-ups of this matchup; if you have the luxury of ignoring Glimpse due to your own clock, then there's few cards we need to care about.
On a pretty nice streak atm winning 11 of my last 13 matches, the deck is pretty fun to play. Almost want another copy of Big Grimmz somewhere in the 75, but any copy that I'd put in the sideboard is likely better as another copy of Abrade.
So let's take a look at Ixalan in decreasing order of relevance:
-Tocatli Honor Guard is the non-flash cheaper Hushwing Gryff. It opens up different U/W variations which would avoid use of Aether Vial; still there's a dearth of 1 mana openers in those colors after Delver so Aether Vial probably still best (in the worst color presentation of Dreadnought). I guess there's maybe this idea of Vial/Delver opener, Standstill, and liberated 3-drop slot (Gryff -> Honor Guard) to Nimble Obstructionist. Cavern of Souls implications: note that this is a human as are Delver, SCM/JVP, Grim Lavamancer, and Dark Confidant.
-Chart a Course can be used for a non-Standstill approach without sacrificing the raw CA, there's technically some madness play to this card.
-Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin Standstill #5 kinda card.
Sideboard stuff:
-Perilous Voyage virtual CA version of Echoing Truth
-Ashes of the Abhorrent does everything that Yixlid Jailer should have done.
-Entrancing Melody quite good vs tokens, particularly ones wearing Batterskull.
-Rampaging Ferocidon doesn't die to P-Fire hatebear that kills P-Fire.
-Sentinel Totem sometimes you can't find your Relic and can't be bothered to buy another. More a card for Welder decks.
-There are two flip-legendary lands that undermine Counterbalance by either dealing 3 or forking spells. The deal 3 land is still probably worse than the highly unplayed Shivan Gorge.
Honorable mentions:
-Arguel's Blood Fast // Temple of Aclazotz: this is fine, we're always a bit interested in Diamond Valley effects. Certainly worse that just Dark Confidant, but such effects are engine cards on the path to gaining the best part of playing red (burn; the idea of 1 Dread hit is lethal) in a color that is fundamentally more broken (black). The most important effects in this transition don't really exist yet as we're still waiting for "when we gain X, opponent loses X" on cards that are actually usable. For now we just file this card in the "Death's Shadow is actually a Dreadnought archetype" folder and wait, joining cards like Orzhov Charm, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Diamond Valley, Grisel, and of course Swords to Plowshares.
-Deadeye Tracker card was kinda close to working in a highly tech'd out manifest approach. Definitely not played before 4x DRS, and there's zero interest in +1/+1 counters vs say a keyword like Deathtouch. Pretty great troll card with Vengeful Pharoah, but as it is just an awful Mirri's Guile.
Set seems to lack any anti-Chalice play at a glance.
Hey Fox ! I've seen you're a long time dreadstill player. Could you please share your UR list??
I'm revisiting this archtype, looks awesome
Why do lists typically play standstill? Just to recover from the card disadvantage of stifling your own trigger?
Yes. When you play a deck with Force of Will and Stiflenought, you desperately need something to fill your hand or lose the game in topdeck mode. Other options have historically been Dark Confidant, Treasure Cruise and -- that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
There were even times when both Confidant and Standstill were played together. I loved those times.
Lands (21)Quote:
Originally Posted by mextremartini
-Factory x4
-Wasteland x4
-Scalding Tarn x4
-other blue fetches x3
-Volc x3
-Island x2
-Mountain x1
Creatures (12)
-Delver x4
-Dreadnought x4
-Grim Lavamancer x2
-Snapcaster x2
Spells (27)
-Standstill x4
-Stifle x4
-FoW x4
-Daze x4
-Brainstorm x4
-Izzet Charm x2
-Bolt x2
-Wild Slash x1 (I like having access to 'no damage prevention' clause)
-Illusionary Mask x1
-Trickbind x1
SB:
-Flusterstorm x2
-Surgical Extraction x2
-Pyroblast x2
-Abrade x2
So far these are SB cards that should pretty much always show up in any U/R list, regardless of archetype. The rest of the cards are heavily influenced by personal preference, and for me that means favoring polarizing effects rather than generic applicability.
-Divert x2
-Commandeer x1
-Misdirection x1
-Dack Fayden x1
-Teferi's Realm x1
-Teferi's Response x1
There's room to change some things around, but among the better options are +1 Trickbind main, making room for a Dack in the main, SB Torpor Orb (in spite of SCM), and honestly Nimble Obstructionist would probably be a good addition to the 75 (particularly vs Storm). Also note that all of these suggestions are also geared at attacking U/W in particular.
Unfortunately red is a pretty boring, straightforward color so you don't have the creative space to effectively use a card like Vision Charm. On the plus side, all that Dreadnought is with these colors is a really good burn spell. Access to the tempo swing the threat of 12 damage provides [i.e. not having to have a reactive kills 5 toughness plan and being able to race combo, if necessary] in conjunction with Standstill allows for unconventional lines of play, which are not native to other U/R archetypes.
Hi Dreadnought lovers,
yesterday I took down a small local tourney with the following list:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Izzet Charm
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Smash To Smithereens
1 Divert
I ended being 5-1, beating Dark Depths, Soldier stompy, Elves, Grixis Delver, Deathblade and loosing to Jund. It was very fun to play, Dreadnougts were dreadful and noughty and were kicking butt! A true christmas deck:) cheers
Love the list, any more updates on it? very tempted to build it as Dreadnought is bae :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
Looks like Rivals of Ixalan is spoiled, time to see if any are playable...
-Silent Gravestone is quite reasonable yard hate that plays nicely with Grim Lavamancer while impeding Loam, DRS, and SCM.
-Blood Sun is going to see legacy play, and the pricetag is probably fine. The real winner with this card is City of Traitors since you'd untap with one more mana than you'd get from resolving a Blood Moon. Not really a card we'd run, but not a bad card to own.
-Blazing Hope is probably worth speculating on (as much as a StP analog can be worth doing so). This card is actually playable, and should definitely be considered by any deck that was previously trying to use Delver + StP. Expecting to see modern Death's Shadow move towards Esper with a card like this.
-Release to the Wind seems like a fine card to mess up removal or to EoT, against say a Gurmag, to allow a Standstill to come down. A bit overpriced at the moment though.
-Reckless Rage is fairly awful but I guess in some backwards way it deals 4 damage to a player via trample. Probably never running this card, but it does some things with Illusionary Mask.
-Warkite Marauder is funny with Grim Lavamancer; maybe in modern. :tongue:
Bad cards b/c bad cards beat Counterbalance:
-Nezahal, Primal Tide, 'nuff said
-Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison is Sol-land playable with Dreadnought-type strategies.
-Timestream Navigator potentially represents a 1-card combo (with 6 mana) that forces an opponent to concede the game or accept a draw post-JTMS ult.
One of the more interesting things with the enrage mechanic is Desert keeps looking better and better...there isn't a deck yet, but it is becoming more playable.
-Siegehorn Ceratops is a card we're never running, but it's way better than Longtusk Cub for that standard energy deck - there is nothing worse than having burn spells that can only target creatures vs an opponent who isn't using creatures. This card makes all those terrible standard burn spells playable, in the same way that Dreadnought gives Stifle a goldfishing application. This feels like the most underpriced rare at this time, but Fleecemane Lion 2.0 might not be a supported color pair at this time in standard.
This is a pretty poor set so far in terms of legacy application, but looks fun to draft.
The Dominaria update:
So Dreadnoughts are now historic, but very little is gained by this at this time.
Adventurous Impulse certainly interesting in a Delver-less approach heavy on green; an ideal cantrip for a face-down centric strategy.
Broken Bond reasonable green Disenchant with upside, particularly interesting with a variant that may run Quirion Ranger - this is only a support card but moves us closer to an idea of building Dreadnought around Stasis (allows for a phasing prison angle). The cards to support this idea don't exist yet at competitive costs.
Damping Sphere interesting symmetry breaker, but primarily a vintage only idea if you want to jam Dreadnoughts there with/without incorporating Workshop. There is this interesting idea of ramping out enablers with Workshop then turning artifact-only mana into conditionless [???] colorless later. Waste of a sideboard slot in legacy.
Divest fringe playable if you're maxed on Thoughtseize, but likely far worse than Annul which see little to no play.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria I guess if you don't want to buy JTMS this does things? The ult is certainly more oppressive as it hits lands, and the -3 can answer problems in a way JTMS can't. I'd love it if legacy was in a place where they crack Standstill on our EoT nuking 3 lands and then we cast the no value Brainstorms just to dump on more triple Stone Rain, but it's a 5 mana card.
Tempest Djinn playable in a budget mono-U build.
Honorable mentions:
Zhalfirin Void if there was some way to bounce this land reliably...and, if Mishra's Factory and Wasteland didn't exist. :tongue:
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle almost an idiotic way to cheat in a Dreadnought....almost. Ignoring the overcosting for a moment, this is at least interesting within the context of a Torpor Orb as it puts a trigger on cast.
Shalai, Voice of Plenty we don't run cards with effects like Guardian Beast nor Padeem, Consul of Innovation, but this one certainly has the best body and Karakas implications. Unplayable, but interesting.
Lingering Phantom too cute and useless vs DRS, but interesting draw/discard CA engine with Dreadnought in the mix. Had it cost 3 or less, there would have been a casual tiny leaders niche in a Silas Renn, Seeker Adept deck.
Healing Grace unplayable but hilarious vs deathtouch mechanic.
Garna, the Bloodflame move over Kolaghan and Flayer, manaless and vintage dredge has a new toy...except they go to hand, so it's worthless to Dread Return. :laugh:
So the UG variants got better on the dude-centric periphery while that color scheme remains unplayable. The theoretical UG approach is still failing to offer up an imbalanced angle of attack which can preclude the use of black [DRS]. The UW approach is already ridiculous and this set just offers up even more degenerate, uplayable spice. None of this spice really complements a competitive UW build as it doesn't really complement an E-Tutor build, but if you ever wanted to incorporate Auriok Salvagers, you'd have different graveyard-independent options at 4cmc. Very little black and even less red implications coming from Dominaria; particularly saddened by no competitive way to incorporate the outrageous flavor of Phyrexian Scriptures with Dreadnought (as printed it's a trashy Abyss).
Anyways at GP Seattle I ran UW Dreadnought which is easiest to understand with the title of Dread Monastery of the Unseen, but mostly referred to as Manifest Destiny. Got knocked out of day 2 contention in round seven, but went 5-3. In order the GP went:
r1: 0-2 vs miracles.
r2: 2-1 vs R/G Lands.
r3: 2-1 vs Rabble/Moon stompy.
r4: 2-0 vs maverick.
r5: 1-2 vs maverick.
r6: 2-1 vs B/R Reanimator.
r7: 1-2 vs grixis thieves. (no Dack -2 were allowed)
r8: 2-1 vs TES.
Aside from the loss in r5 to maverick, these match wins/losses are expected. Miracles/bad miracles (meaning UWx Blade), Delver (generally grixis), and czech pile/czech petty criminals (thieves) are generally unfavorable matchups. Opposing decks that have to "do something" are highly likely to lose, particularly vs a Dreadnought variant that can tutor up skill-less white cards. Despite not ending the day x-2, the vast majority of matchups made that day of legacy really quite enjoyable as the deck would really prefer to exist in a legacy format where SCM, Delver, DRS, and Counterbalance are all banned (which of couse will never happen, but damn the torpedoes). Definitely a good showing for a deck with exactly one designer. :cool:
Does anyone have any Young Pyromancer or Eldrazi Mimic
Testing? Im officially back playing Legacy again so ill let you guys know if I hit up any tournaments
Relying on Young Pyromancer creates a problem where you've got too many 2 mana threats and too few 1 mana threats. Playing UR with Delver, Grim Lavamancer, and SCM alongside Factory/Standstill generally provides a better gameplan rather than a Dreadnought deck somewhere between UR Delver/Grixis Delver and Blue Moon (except slower, and still wanting to run Daze). Not only does Grim Lavamancer get deployed before the idea of a turn 2 Standstill, but it is also exceptionally dangerous for DRS decks - forcing them to discard removal or even the old Grim to Tourach as they have to burn the FoW. As a quick note about sideboard cards, Lavamancer works incredibly well with Silent Gravestone...so while while you certainly could run Gravestone and YP, you're not breaking symmetry in any unified, anti-DRS direction (except perhaps backwards, as Gravestone doesn't generate YP triggers).
Eldrazi Mimic can certainly cheat in a Dreadnought, but that card doesn't win games when it isn't paired with Chalice/Sol Land. At 2cmc your Dreadnought enabler shouldn't be rewarding opponents for playing creature hate; there are much more disruptive or specialized cards which can accomplish this (and some of these like Trickbind still pitch to FoW). As far as colorless 2 mana enablers go, a Dreadnought deck should be more interested in changing the rules and cards like Torpor Orb, Ill. Mask, and even Sundial of the Infinite will accomplish this in more fundamentally unfair ways.
Legacy is getting clogged with DRS into value scum (Strix, SCM) at the moment. This isn't the best environment to introduce a 2-mana sorcery speed 2/1 and hope for the best. That stat line is meaningless against every creature they run, and that translates to: they will have removal sitting in their hand waiting for you to play a Dreadnought, because they don't have to care about whatever you're doing at 2 mana. Play Lavamancer and some Izzet Charms (even a Dack Fayden or two if you really want), and save your Bolts for Leovold/PWs/opponent's life total. I think even Walking Ballista would outperform either of your 2-drops @Rood.
Not sure if this still qualifies under this thread, but I'd like to think that it does. So, I used to play a lot DreadStill back in the days (even after it was no longer considered good anymore). I got tired of fighting against every deck having a suitable removal for my 12/12, so I dropped the deck and moved to a regular Landstill. Nothing wrong with that deck but I 've still been trying to configure a Dreadstill list that I actually like, but haven't been able to. But then it hit me. What if I've been blindly forcing a Dreadnought deck, when the core of the deck works just fine without it? I quickly threw a list together, tweaked a bit from here and there and started to think about the sideboard. Then it hit me again, I could still run Dreadnoughts and have them be even better than before, because they could surprise people out of the sideboard.
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Other blue fetches
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 True Name Nemesis
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrade
SB:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrade
2 Vendilion Clique
Some cards that didn't make it but I considered were Snapcasters in the main (I dislike it with Daze). EE, needle and relic were all valid considerations for the sideboard and might still make it in, but at the moment they didn't feel necessary.
Feel free to comment on the deck. I'll definitely test more with it and hopefully this will light up the deck for me again.
I'm running a similiar list to yours Yan but I don't maindeck Lavamancer I still play with the
dreadnought maindeck. My creature base is
4x Delver
4x Nought
3x True-Name
I also play the 4th copy of the true name in the board just to deal with really removal heavy lists.
Tested out Thing In the Ice and the conclusion was...it wasn't good enough in this deck. I DO however
play with Gitaxian Probe as a 3 of. I think the cards nuts in this shell.
I've been doing alot of testing with my new list and have been having alot of success
Here's what I've been using
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dismember
2 Misdirection
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
True Name is a workhorse in this deck. Literally gives you free outs to otherwise difficult matchups (Decay decks)
The board is a work in progress but it's coming along nicely. I've been having alot of sucess with the Dismembers and
Misdirections so far. Pierce/REB is for combo or tempo. The Extra TNN helps for our hard matchups postboard.
Tell me what you guys think?
I like the deck, but I don't like two Volcanic Islands. I know they can be protected with Stifle, but those should be saved at all costs for your Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. I would add a third in the main, as such so that you're not cut off (especially in games two and three) from your Blasts and Bolts if you get Wasted out and are left with dead cards in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
Four TNN in the seventy-five seems like complete overkill. Two in the main is a reasonable number; you don't want to be tapping down three mana during your main phase with all those reactive cards in your hand. I would play two, and then a single Clique main for a follow-up Standstill.
I've been playing a ton of Standstill lately, and shifted away from Probe. It just hasn't impressed me in these particular types of decks, because I want a better card in that slot that does something.
Izzet Charm is a card you should be looking into over Spell Snare and Dismember (unless you're playing in an extremely Goyf-heavy meta); this card is also nice against cards like Prelate on 1. Bring Fetches up to 7-8 (cutting 1-2 basic island) and swap one basic Island into a basic Mountain. Having TNN over Snapcaster is interesting; keep tabs on that during your games by asking what happens in this game if it was an SCM. Grim Lavamancer should be in the main as a 2x, but that means you're probably cutting Probe - you don't need to see a fair deck's hand to know this card ruins their plans unless they remove it asap.
For sideboard you should have 2x Abrade (Spell Pierce seems like the worst card in there). Your deck isn't providing answering problems which prison pieces can impose; you're on this rather linear merfolk'y strategy where an assumption seems to have been made that people won't interfere with your plan of turning creatures sideways. There's not really a problem with that approach, but it's a bit unclear as to why you locked yourself into the relentless 1-for-1'ing (Pierce, Dismember, and to a lesser extent Echoing) over disruptive elements which also advance the Dreadnought plan.
One last thing is that you should have about 2-2.5 cards that cheat Dreadnought into play per Dreadnought; your current list can only reasonably support two.
Went top 4 on a 25 person tournament. Went 3-1-1 in the Swiss, losing and drawing to DnT (bad variance, mana screw/mulls) but my wins were also lucky, against lands (!), Miracles and Dragon Stompy. Won against the number one seed on DnT. And lost in the semi-finals 1-2 against enchantress. If I had a commandeer I would have won :cool:
Went with a standard list of Fox with the TNN from Rood (didn't have snappy's and was quite fond of playing TNN)
Will post the exact list later (and maybe a small report)
Short version, I think I lost every game where I started with a one lander, or had to mull because of colorless lands. Won the games easily where I had 4 or even 5 lands in opening hands. My luck was really swingy.
As promised, the list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
1 Vision Charm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factories
3 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
2 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Teferi's Response
1 Reality Ripple
1 True-Name Nemesis
Couldn't find the Trickbind before the tournament, but Vision Charm did more than expected.
Will be changing 1 misdirection by a commandeer, and probably the Charm with a trickbind.
I put the TNN last minute in the last slot against Miracles, game 1: Miracles, turns out if they can't find plow, and I keep drawing al my factories, it's a good matchup :-)