Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
That's all?? With no explanation?
I found MoI very useful
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
That's all?? With no explanation?
I found MoI very useful
I'd play a singleton P2E over MOI any day. It doesn't cost a land drop, can't get wasted, and has surprise factor. MOI is trash in landstill.
MOI is like playing tabernacles: explanation is: you can do more with that space than having more nonbasics which don't allow you to play your 4cc bombs =/ its not baaad but its not the best and we want the best
At the very least, don't count it with your lands. Since the maze doesn't make mana and you said the Tolaria West is mostly a tutor, I'd say you need another land. Especially considering you don't run top.
If you already had a solid manabase, maze would be fine (although not particularly amazing). As it is, it should really be another mana producing land.
Edit:The biggest problem with maze is that it forces you to decide between playing removal and playing land. This is a really big deal when you're trying to set up an Elspeth or FoF a couple turns down the line. A secondary concern is that your removal is now vulnerable to wasteland. I played it in eternal garden for a while, and even when you have a crucible out it really sucks to hear "Waste your maze, swing with dreadnought." There are a few other issues, but those seem like the biggest two.Quote:
That's all?? With no explanation?
Maze can be pretty awesome in combination with mass removal, is uncounterable, and is also nice with Standstill. However, it's slow and dies to Wasteland. Apply prudence based on metagame.
A single Factory can stop an army of Mutavaults; a single Maze of Ith can only stop one. So which one is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Factory also trades with Mongoose, which is very useful. Maze just kinda watches you die.
Side note -- I ran a Maze in a GWBu Gifts Rock build I was working on a few months ago. It was nice as it was removal that I could squeeze into a Loam-based Gifts package like Loam/Waste/Monastery/Maze, but it wasn't that impressive outside that context. I kinda liked how it'd force them to overextend a bit so my Deeds were better, but it was also frustrating that I needed to build up mana to Deed and playing the Maze slowed that down. It's something of a messy card and I don't think I'd put up with it in most decks unless it fit in really nicely somehow, like that Gifts package. Landstill doesn't seem like it's got the synergy Maze is looking for.
And a single Desert will kill any number of Electric Eels which clearly proves that it's better than Overrun which doesn't kill any. Meaningless argument is meaningless. Would you mind pointing out where I said you should cut Mishra's Factory for it? Play it over removal, if anything. Maze of Ith is not a land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Anyway. I'm not saying you should run Maze of Ith in UW Landstill. I'm saying it's not self-evidently awful. It can be good in the right circumstances, even if UW is not the best Landstill variant for it. I ran them in UBG Landstill with Deeds and Intuition/Loam myself, which obviously helps. Intuitioning for Loam and two Mazes is so fun.
I can't believe Maze is even being talking about in a Landstill Conversation.Quote:
Anyway. I'm not saying you should run Maze of Ith in UW Landstill. I'm saying it's not self-evidently awful.
Maze of Ith is terrible in Land-still currently. There isn't an argument in the world which would support Maze showing any relevant playability that another card (say a removal spell, or a utility spell) wouldn't be better as. Ill. Citrus's point was to state the not so apparent truth. Your response was quite vindictive and not necessary.
It would go along the same lines as:
"Why do moderators who don't actively play certain archetypes have a higher "respect" level then everyone else in said thread.
While I do understand the reasoning for this question, it isn't in my place to a. be a cock or b. ask/ make that argument here. Best used for a better time or place.
The bottom line is this folks. You all have some very brilliant minds when it comes to piloting land-still. We as a group constantly push the deck into new era's and meta-games (boldly go where no man/deck/archtype? has gone before.) It is pretty much a consensus that Tolaria west has been too slow and is too slow for the future of legacy. Unless there is a shift in the balance of things, it will remain that way.
As for Maze it doesn't stop creatures that are difficult to deal with (shroud) and it's removed by the wasteland strategy.
I hope this has been semi-informative and non-offensive.
Hello everyone and my apologize for disturbing your little argumentation about Maze of Ith, but since Landstill is my favorit deck I hat no other choice then asking you guys about my current list.
I have followed this treads for a long time now and finally i reached the point where my list seems strong enough to stand a chance in my current Meta game (even if my Meta is a little random right now).
So I'll just cut to the list:
Lands:
3x Strand
2x Delta
1x Flats
3x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2xIsland
2x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Factory
2x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
Draw:
4x Bs
3x Standstill
2x FoF
2x Top
Counter:
4x FoW
3x Cs
3x Snare
Removal:
4x StP
3x Vindicate
3x EE
2x Wrath
Win Condition:
2x Elspeth
2x DoJ
1x Humility
SB:
2x Relic
1x Crypt
1x Path
3x Plague
2x Pulse
3x Negate
3x Preacher
The list performed well for me in a small tournament ( I know this isn't really impressiv :) ), I just like to hear your oppinion :D.
Finally I just need to thank of all you guys, for your ideas, reports, discussions and all the other stuff that kept me in this deck.
Without this side and this tread I'd propably still play casual on the kitchen table with some kind of aggro tribal deck :) .
@All: I'know that MOI dies to Waste, and gives no mana. But, MOI is not the only non basic land. Has "spell" effect and awaits for the best target in contrast with PtE. It's tutoreable, but yes..it gives no mana. Until now it worked...maybe no later.
I like your list, Felidae. It looks well balanced, and I'm not qualified enough to criticize any part of it.
What you you guys think of taking virtually that exact list, and going -3 Vindicate, +2 Cunning Wish & +1 Path to Exile? (With a different sideboard of course) Probably would also drop the swamp for another island in that case.
I was supporting your argument. I should have specified. I didn't mean for it to be a response at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Oh. Who were you responding to? Or what were you trying to say? I'm having trouble making sense of things.
@ mossivo:
Maze of Ith is best against aggro-contro or midrange decks with a small number of (usually largeish) creatures and no Wastelands. Supreme Blue is a good example from today's metagame. They can't counter it, missing a land drop is tolerable because they don't put that much pressure on you, and then when they're forced to play a second creature and you Wrath/Deed them it's devastating. At one point Legacy had quite a lot of these kinds of decks, though obviously that's less the case these days. So my point is that "Maze of Ith sucks" (unlike, say, "Path of Peace sucks") is not a constant truth but something that depends on the metagame. I wouldn't play it in the current metagame.
As for Tolaria West, though I was making no point regarding it, I've always thought it was bad.
I was experimenting with a hybrid of Landstill and Lands/Eternal Garden, but the problem is that you can't support maze/tabernacle and wrath/humility and run enough blue cards for Force. Simply not enough space.
though I am curious, has anyone tried running Mox Diamonds in Landstill? T1 Standstill seems like such a back breaking play. Being able to spellsnare around the Daze or use CS on turn 1 also seems good.
To be clear, I've only ever used Maze in Landstill as a 1-2 of. But a control deck with both Diamond/Loam and Force of Will is a pet project of mine since, well, a really long time, and getting the numbers to work out is, as you said, fucking hard.
I was tinkering with an experimental list, something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
(30) Lands + mox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
2 (Flex Spot) -- More Manlands? Mutavault?
3 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
(30) Non Lands
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath
1 Humility
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
What's about adding a greensplash in the deck, so you would be able to play LftL (instead of Crucible) and Nantuko Monastary in the Flex Spot.
A single Tolarian West might work as well, you would have less problems finding your Wasteland/Manlands etc. and with Academy Ruins in your deck EE might be a good board removal.
@Grahf:
Thank you for your cmt, personally I like Vindicate more then Wish, because you have a direct answer against anything relevant (as I said befor, my Metagame is a bit random :) )
Why is loam better than crucible? Because it can recur itself? Imo, crucible is better because it doesn't cost mana to use every time and because it can be recurred with ruins. Adding green for Monastery however makes sense. Dump the mazes for two trops and a Horizon Canopy, then dump FoF for Intuition--that's how we'll fetch ruins, wasteland, etc. out of the deck. Grip would also be an auto-add to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
- You can't simultaneously discount Loam being able to recur itself and then cite the ability to recur it with Academy as an advantage of Crucible.
- Maze of Ith is not a land. You cut spells for Mazes, Mazes for spells, and mana-producing lands for mana-producing lands.
- If you're going with Intuition, swapping one of the Crucibles for a Loam is something you should definitely do. You can keep the other two as Crucibles if you want; requiring less mana and fewer skipped draws to use is something one can respect.
- With Intuition/Loam in the deck I would definitely keep at least one Maze in. Being able to fetch two of them is backbreaking against some decks, but getting your hand clogged with Mazes is not so great against other decks, so the second one is a judgment call.
Other lands to consider include Kor Haven, Cephalid Coliseum, and Lonely Sandbar. (If you only have one Wasteland, Sandbar merits a close look -- it lets you keep recurring Wasteland with Loam while also drawing cards. On the other hand, coming into play tapped sucks, and with multiple Wastelands it's not as necessary.)
1 - I guess I misspoke. I'm not counting Loam's ability to recur itself as a disadvantage, simply saying that Crucible overall costs less and can be recurred by another card in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
2 - Maze is interchangeable with spells, but only to a certain extent. Engineered Explosives and Elspeth can't be pitched to Mox Diamond.
3 - If I can run Maze as a 1-of to tutor for with intution, I might as well run a single tabernacle too, right?
(30) Lands + mox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
2 Maze of Ith or a 1/1 split with Kor Haven
1 Tabernacle
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Horizon Canopy or Cephalid Coliseum
2 Island
2 Plains
(30) Non Lands
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath
1 Humility
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Intuition
Sandbar's interaction with Loam is only relevant if I'm relying on Loam--my primary gameplan is to get a crucible into play. Loam is a backup, for when the speed of the game dictates that I need to get recursion and two answers (mazes or maze/tabernacle) with intuition. Otherwise, 2x crucible/ruins or crucible/ruins and one answer (probably wrath or humility, whichever would screw the opponent harder) is a better package.
As for canopy vs Coliseum...it's a toss-up. Canopy fixes mana but coliseum draws more cards. By the time coliseum is active, you should have some kind of recursion engine active so that discarding lands is no longer an issue.
This is true. But you were saying "cut Mazes for Tropicals" which is clearly wrong; if you do that, either the deck had not enough mana before or it will have too much after. I think the right way to do it is to count Maze/Tabernacle when asking, "How many lands do I need to support Mox Diamond?", but not when asking, "How many lands do I need to cast spells?". It gets even more complicated in decks with Urborg. Usually I err on the side of safety and don't count it as something that produces mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
I dunno. Up to you. I think I'd be more inclined to put Tabernacle in the sideboard.Quote:
3 - If I can run Maze as a 1-of to tutor for with intution, I might as well run a single tabernacle too, right?
Well, yeah. But you can't rely on Plan A always succeeding. Sandbar lets you Intuition for Loam, Wasteland, Sandbar; the drawback is that when you draw it, it's a really, really bad Island. Again, judgment call. In this case I probably wouldn't include it.Quote:
Sandbar's interaction with Loam is only relevant if I'm relying on Loam--my primary gameplan is to get a crucible into play.
Why don't we just run goyfs while we're splashing green?
And KoTRs if there's a land shell?
kotor/goyf + humility = win ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Delussions have started...
So I've been looking for an efficient non-white answer to Iona, ideally something that also gives game against Progenitus. All I could think of was Innocent Blood replacing the Path to Exile slot. So I've come up with the following and I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on it or any better ideas? Have I thrown away any previously good matchups?
Theoretical MD List:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
3 EE
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elsepth
1 Eternal Dragon
Theoretical Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
4 Innocent Blood
3 Extirpate
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Negate
Wish into bounce/diabolic edict/doomblade is certainly better than Innocent Blood.
Tinefol is right.
(BTW, sorry man if I didn't reply to your PM, I had very difficult moments this holidays, I'm really sorry.)
Here's a list I put up to efficiently answer iona, thanks to Tinefol's suggestions on the topic. Maindeck relic is justifiable as answer to iona, and is generally good against all decks: cantrips vs aggro into solutions, gets tarmo at bay, wrecks ichorid g1. It should have an overall good plan against every deck in the field, truth be told. Still, I don't like wrath :) I'd rather play KF maindeck.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Plains (1)
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Underground Sea
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [R] Wrath of God
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade
SB: 1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [M10] Negate
best wishboard I've ever made, the splits are amazing :)
I normally lurk.
Why is this discussion of Eternal Garden happening in the Landstill thread?
I generally like Slaughter Pact over any instant that I would be paying mana for because its playable the turn you wish for it, gettig you out of some silly binds against things like Berserk Stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Aside from that, that's never a list tat I could see myself playing.
Mmmm, I don't know... General landstill affinity with land-based strategy, I guess? Just a supposition, you know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Powerful Tier1 that I fear everyday, indeed (signed: Sarcasm). Not to say doom blade/diabolic edict are both superior to pact in any way (namely: progenitus, easy side in against aggressive decks/control decks, pay-your-pact-and-see-your-sea-wasted etc.).Quote:
I generally like Slaughter Pact over any instant that I would be paying mana for because its playable the turn you wish for it, gettig you out of some silly binds against things like Berserk Stompy.
Don't play it, I don't care so much, I don't even play it myself (I still think firespout is superor to wrath nowadays, thought maindeck relic has its points). Aside from that, next time try to give a rational explanation on why you wouldn't ever play a list like that instead of just popping out and yell "OMG! why does the hell a discussion of a deck which abuses of lands is being perpetrated in the thread of a deck which abuses of lands?!?" or "shit man, your list is crap, I would never play it because.. well... it simply sucks, it's self-evident!". Sorry to be harsh (I'm usually not, and I feel a lot like mossivo in this moment! :laugh: ), but if this is the high content of your comments, plase go on lurking.Quote:
Aside from that, that's never a list tat I could see myself playing.
EDIT: This is not to say that list hasn't evident faults. I plainly admit it! It is to say: the list has faults, try to discuss them so we can get at a better list, don't just say it's crap. It's enervating.
Just a few things that I'd change about your list:
-cutting 1 Wrath for an Humility (even if your SB doesn't really like an Humillity), cause it is still a game winner on its own.
-adding an Enlightend Tutor in your MD or SB as you can tutor for an relic or for the Humility (or EE/Standstill if you need to)
- cutting 1-2 Relics for a Crypt, since you can recover it with Ruins
I still dont like the idea of more then 1 Relic in the MD, but it seems like the best answer for an Iona.
Personally I prefer an allround list without cutting so much for Iona (but in a Meta filled with Ichorid or Loam it might be worth the cut :) ).
Edict is weak against Survival builds packing Iona (which are becoming more and more popular) as they will almost always have additional creatures in play. Also, if you wish into an answer for Iona, then you're not Wishing into Extirpate to try to make their deck fair. Iona + Genesis will rock you hard, and if you somehow manage to deal with both of those then they still have Squee most likely. Bottom line: counter Survival (what a protip) or at the very least counter Retainers. Unfortunately with cards like Thoughtseize, Therapy and Witness their deck is built to push a Survival through a counter wall, at which point there are few good answers to decks packing Iona/Retainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Against Reanimator, you have to push Wish and/or your wished for card (likely the latter) through their discard and countermagic, but I'm significantly less familiar with that matchup.
@RogueMTG: Innocent Blood doesn't seem terrible. In fact it's probably solid to decent against Zoo and Merfolk as well. The biggest drawback that I see is the requirement to have access to :b: early, and the sorcery speed-ness of it which could prevent you from Spell Snaring their 2nd turn play.
@gustha: Relic maindeck seems like a good choice nowadays. Why the basic Swamp? It seems unecessary because you only need it for EE@3 and your wishboard. No good opponent is going to try to waste a Landstill player off black. Doom Blade seems really weak, especially considering you're not playing Path in the board. It's better than Path in exactly one situation (Iona) that maybe represents maybe 10% of the metagame and that's a HEAVY overestimation. To me, the risk of running up against Iona does not warrant a sideboard slot as narrow as Doom Blade, especially at the expense of Path to Exile.
That aside, have any UWx Landstill lists put up results lately? Are Deed-based lists (usually Uwbg) stronger or weaker than Wrath/Elspeth based lists right now? What are the key components required to be successful in a metagame that appears to still contain a healthy dose of Zoo and Merfolk, but now also CBTop with Progenitus. Throw in the recent success of decks like 43Lands and Aggro-loam, plus the ever present Ichorid and Storm Combo decks, and it's looking difficult for a Landstill player to not spread the deck too thin while still being competitive against most of the field.
What have other Landstill players done to deal with this? Personally, I'm questioning whether I'm even going to play Landstill at an upcoming big event, because there is too high a probability that there will be too many bad matchups.
I've tested a few times against reanimator in the past few weeks and I also considered adding something extra in the SB that is not white to deal with a resolved iona.
In the end I couldn't find a satisfying solution and upon further testing deemed it wasn't all that necessary. Sure you lose the games where Iona hits play, but the solution is worse then the problem.
I also experimented with 2 maindeck relics and I'd really recommend against it. It was more of a nuisance then it was an addition.
In the end, if you are REALLY that worried about Iona, Progenitus and the like. I'd recommend playing nevynneral's disk. I played 2 for quite some time and cut them because they were too slow but it has the merits of being useful for other match-ups as well (enchantress for example...).
Innocent blood and edict seem very suboptimal against gobs, merfolk and several other decks that have access to enough creatures to sac instead of there fatties and thus doesn't make the cut.
I haven't really seen any decent results lately from either version. My best recent placement was 20th (of 80 something) at the last Vestal tournament. I ended up going 4-2-1, one win shy of prizes D:. Win's were against TES, Belcher, Merfolk, and Dreadstill. Losses were to Reanimator and Merfolk, and the Tie was against Progenitus/Countertop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
A combination of Meddling Mages + Extirpate goes a long way against Loam strategies. Plus the mages have the added bonus of being good against Storm, and Extirpate the added bonus of being good against Ichorid (Mages aren't terrible here either).
I'm not sure Merfolk is ever going to be easy, I think I'm at like 33.3% win percentage against Merfolk in tournaments with Landstill.
I haven't had any real problems with Progenitus decks aside from occasionally going to time. But an extra Wrath effect or two probably wouldn't hurt. As Reagens pointed out, Disk might be solid here (and against Iona), it's not something I had thought about, but I'll be testing it.
I personally don't like the 4 color deed lists, a deck that wants to hit 4+ Lands every game can't afford to not run a solid number of basics and intend to have game against the likes of Merfolk & Tempo thresh. Plus deed is terrible against all the common fatties.
If you haven't read it I'd like to direct you to this page:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16023
It discusses the rational behind the DTB status and what will likely become the current DTB.
Landstill hasn't actually put the numbers up to really be considered a deck to beat putting about 5% of the top8 decks and 0% of 1/2 in large tournaments recently.
The data from this post suggests that Canadian Thresh is the single most successful deck, making up 13% of all top 8s at the 20 largest events since August. Followed by Countertop and Zoo/Goyf Sligh decks both at 9% and then Merfolk and Aggro Loam at 8%. ANT and Dredge put up 6% and finally Goblins and Landstill 5%
Its my understanding that Canadian Thresh has always been a difficult match-up for the deck, where counter-top decks are easier. Merfolk, ANT and Dredge are bot unfavorable where Goblins, Aggro Loam are far more manageable.
I play a Cunning Wish list, I have since Konsultant posted a list with Cunning Wish sometime last year when he was consistently doing very well with Landstill. I was very cynical about the card at first but now have a lot of difficulty playing Landstill without it. So you know where I'm coming from For refernce here is my list:
I jump between that list and a list that splashes red exclusively for Ajani Vengent.Quote:
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Marsh Flats
// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Moat
4 Counterspell
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Day of Judgment
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 Argivian Find
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
While we spend a lot of time talking about the Merfolk MU (because its awful) it is clear from this data that Canadian Thresh is the first deck that should be considered. What cards do you need to play in your 60-61 to win game one against Canadian Thresh? I remember Konsultant playing with Diabolic Edict in the SB to hit Nimble Mongoose, sadly since Noble Hirearch has started seeing so much play in Bant decks, it has limited splashability.
What cards need to be played to consistently win game one against Merfolk? ANT? Zoo?
Do you see Landstill as fundementally a White control deck with blue for counter/Draw or a blue control deck with white for better answers to creatures and amazing win conditions?
Is the current Legacy metagame outside of Landstill's ability to control? I've been trying to reconfigure my deck several times but I'm often finding the number of cards I feel I need to play are overwhelming.
I'd think it would be good to start a discussion about cards that are not played in nearly every deck, where are they good, what are the matchups that you'd rather have something else?
Vindicate
Vendillion Clique
Jace (numbers 2-X)
Sensei's Divining Top
Maindecked Counterbalance
Moat
Nevinyrral's Disk
Cunning Wish
Extra Swords effects
I'll stat off my part of the discussion
Cunning Wish - Its a crutch, really. I find it unimaginable to play game one without access to Pulse of the Fields, Extripate, Ravenous Trap and a couple more removal spells. It generally gets around a counterbalance and always gets in under Gaddock Teeg. I think its super important to give me the diversity that the deck needs to win so many game ones, its like being presideboarded often times. It even allows me to find or recover a Moat, Humility or Crucible.
Moat - Moat wins so many games its entirely unfair. Even against pridemage I love it because it reduces the game to countering pridgemage and any burn they throw at me.
Extra STPs - I've recently started playing 2 Path to Exile in the main as a means to combat Merfolk, its still in testing, but I'm pretty sure if I want to be able to beat that deck more consistently I want to have access to 6 main decked swords effects.
Nevinyrral's Disk - Its an unfair reset button that I am often able to use to scare them from playing additional threats so I can manage what is on the table. I most often stabilize without using it and force them into a position where they need to run out two or three cards to die to it before I activate it.
The end.
On specific removal: do you consider doom blade better than PtE in most of cases? Would you run a split version in the side (DB + PtE)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
On Nevynirral's disk: I tested a list with 1x of it main deck. I didnt disliked it but for similar reasons i cut it out. Maybe against enchantress EE and D. Blow / R. to dust to wish are the best options.
Hey, Chris. I like your list. The only problem I see with it is the lack of win conditions. I found that Landstill has a hard time losing but also a hard time winning. A couple tournaments ago, I played Landstill and drew something like three rounds, literally. Have you run into similar problems?
Also, I've started playing a second Humility since the format is so creature-dominant. Firespout is a "better" Wrath. I've been splashing red just for Firespout and Explosives in the mainboard.
For reference,
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
Basically, the deck is 1/3 removal, 1/3 countermagic, 1/3 draw-filtering and 6 bombs.
I've never liked playing with Cunning Wish. It always seemed clunky and unnecessary to me. That's just my opinion but I know several people who like it in Landstill. I found myself just pitching it to Force of Will because I never wanted to cast it.
I'm not a fan of Counterbalance right now. I think the format is too fast for it. If too many threats hit the table, Counterbalance decks can't keep up. If Loam decks pop up again, Counterbalance would be stronger since it would keep the faster aggro decks in check but still have a slower game where Counterbalance could generate more card advantage.
I use to play Disk for the broad sweep effect and the synergy with Elspeth but it was too clunky at four mana and CITP. I've been using Firespout because it's easier to cast with one red mana symbol in the cost as opposed to two white for Wrath or Day of Judgment and largely has the same effect, especially with six Swords in your list. Anything that Firespout doesn't kill can be handled by Swords and/or Explosives.
Moat's always a fine card but with all the Qasali Pridemages around, I'd rather have Humility. I am in no way disagreeing with you about it, though. Moat's a house.
Regarding Jace, I like how he can absorb damage but when I resolve a Fact or Fiction, I feel like it's hard to lose the game. You dig so deep for anything you could want that I think it's invaluable.
Vindicate is one of those cards that always seems good on paper but not in practice. When the format revolves around two-drops or less and you're going one-for-one with them with a three-casting cost spell, you're losing in that interaction, whether it's tempo or just the ability to keep up. The removal has to mirror the efficiency of the threat or have an overwhelming effect of its own. I prefer your two Paths instead. I think that's a much better move.
I try to gear the mainboard to beat the crap out of creature-based strategies and shore up the rest of the expected field with my sideboard. I like how you play Ethersworn Canonist. Back when I tested it against combo, I found it better than Counterbalance in conjunction with the ten + counters generally played in Landstill.
I use to play black and the only card I miss is Extirpate. That card can be such a blowout.
I'm sick of the UGW deck so I'm trying to get re-interested in Magic by playing Landstill. I hope we can get some good discussion going.
:eek: :eek: :eek:Quote:
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
Worst draw package I've ever seen...
-standstill: why do you play 2? Your list can fully support 3-4! (apart from the 2nd humility which can easily be the 3rd doj... >>> humility).
-sdt + fof: this cannot be. In my humble opinion, fof and sdt EXCLUDE each other. You have to choose between card quality an library manipulation and card quantity. And, given your list, I'd choose card quantity without a doubt!
-1 humility
-2 sdt
+1 doj
+1 standstill
+1 fof/standstill
There's really no reason for you to run sdt here, and I'm the biggest fan of sdt in landstill.
You also have lots of removal and board keepers, humility does its job nowadays only if your meta isn't full of merfolk, ant, reanimator etc... Otherwise, i'd personally go:
-1 humility
+1 EE
But this is a minor change; instead, the draw pakage should be seriously revisited. Don't fear playing 4 standstill, your list is tuned to take the maximum advantage off the best draw engine in legacy.The list is quite good for the rest, nothing to say.
Care to explain why?Quote:
You have to choose between card quality an library manipulation and card quantity.