Re: All B/R update speculation.
What I think would happen.
Fastlands and Filterlands become playable in Legacy and while the amount of basics that are in the format will increase, the difficulty in locating them means they will feel less impactful.
Decks like Stompy, Big Red, Lands and other Punishers win.
Decks held together with DRS, Brainstorm or Veteran Explorer lose out.
Lands, a deck with 3 fetches in it feels limited impact. The deck moves to 4 Duals and 2 Forest, it is forced to Ghost Quarter itself in the face of Bloodmoon more though as it no longer can fetch basics.
After 6 to 9 months debate on banning Loam becomes a common sight in this thread. No one mentions Brainstorm any more.
Moon, Back to Basics, Loam and Crucible become all stars.
Could be wrong, with any luck we'll never know.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Another thing to consider when banning fetches is that, while brainstorm would certainly be less powerful, the impact of the secondary cantrips is greater - if you want to be playing three colors, it'd probably be Uxx, because stuff like ponder gets much stronger when a big part of winning is finding the right colors. Unless you're playing loam, like Dice is describing, cantrips would still probably be the best way to fix.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
taconaut
Another thing to consider when banning fetches is that, while brainstorm would certainly be less powerful, the impact of the secondary cantrips is greater - if you want to be playing three colors, it'd probably be Uxx, because stuff like ponder gets much stronger when a big part of winning is finding the right colors. Unless you're playing loam, like Dice is describing, cantrips would still probably be the best way to fix.
Preordain and Ponder/Portent get significantly better than Brainstorm because of scry and shuffle effects. Getting Brainstorm locked sometimes still happens even with 7-8 fetchlands and alternative shuffle effects (like Stoneforge Mystic.)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Decks like Stompy, Big Red, Lands and other Punishers win.
Would they ? On the short term yes, but with manabases forcibly fairer, it's not an argument I would say is obvious on the long term. Today Blood Moon is a house because the opponent's only out is its what, two basics in the remaining ~50 cards of his deck. Depending on who goes first maybe you've been able to secure one before it dropped but you're still quite cut from your colors.
Now with a deck with probably 8-9 basics (if not more if it's a two color deck), chances for your opponent to actually find two in the first ten cards are not insignificant at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
After 6 to 9 months debate on banning Loam becomes a common sight in this thread.
:)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The sad thing is I'd probably still try to play Knight of the Reliquary with fetches gone :( #4canopy4wasteland
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds bitches.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds bitches.
Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass would suddenly crush everything.
I both think that would be the funniest thing ever and that the format would be hideous.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass would suddenly crush everything.
I both think that would be the funniest thing ever and that the format would be hideous.
Why it will be hideous?
Focusing on Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wild is the wrong way to go. I will never include those cards in my deck.
People always forget the slow fetchlands from Mirage:
Flood Plain
Bad River
Rocky Tar Pit
Mountain Valley
Grasslands
This will reduce the speed of decks using Brainstorm, turn 2 TNN/Leo, Storm, etc.
Like i said in my previous post Wotc already had printed the cards. They only have to make the right decision, and push the format in a way it will be more accessible and still fun.
Fast fetchlands allow to increase the speed of decks with Blue thanks to cantrips. Fair decks that do not use blue have to tax the opponent or use discard spells.
So the Fetchland will not go, the speed will go. You will not be able to play 12 Fetchlands and 6 Duals. You will probably change to 6 fetchlands/6 duals/6 basics or gold lands so you can have fast start and filter your deck in the mid game or after controlling the board in the first two/three turns. This still will allow TNN turn 2, but it will be less frequent.
Brainstorm will become clunky, but still available. With cards like Stoneforge mistic/traverse the ulvenvald/Slow fetch/etc you will be able to sculpt your hand just at a slower rate and less effective. It will definitely increase the difficulty of the format. But this is want we want at the end.
Play the Royal format of the game.
High Skill/ High Difficulty/ High Experience/ High Reward.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
Why it will be hideous?
People always forget the slow fetchlands from Mirage:
Flood Plain
Bad River
Rocky Tar Pit
Mountain Valley
Grasslands
I would love to face those cards with my Lands deck, although it might be too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
In two, maybe three, color decks there is always the Panorama lands as well like Bant Panorama. It enters untapped and gives you colorless, or fetches a basic tapped if you need it to. The fact that it hits 3 different land types means it's slow but effective. Same with the shard/wedge lands like Jungle Shrine and Mystic Monastery.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I would love to face those cards with my Lands deck, although it might be too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
Pithing Needle shows up in all sideboards for Port/Wasteland/Stage. Game 1, rough shape though. I think someone above mentioned that Lands becomes incredible in a fetchless metagame, which I agree with.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
In two, maybe three, color decks there is always the Panorama lands as well like
Bant Panorama. It enters untapped and gives you colorless, or fetches a basic tapped if you need it to. The fact that it hits 3 different land types means it's slow but effective. Same with the shard/wedge lands like
Jungle Shrine and
Mystic Monastery.
Do not forget Brainstorm into Ash Barrens:wink:
Quote:
Pithing Needle shows up in all sideboards for Port/Wasteland/Stage. Game 1, rough shape though. I think someone above mentioned that Lands becomes incredible in a fetchless metagame, which I agree with.
Agreed Lands might become a powerful deck.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MorphBerlin
Yeah how is ono-R stompy (the premier Moon deck) going to support it without duals?:eyebrow:
I never said it couldn't be run. I said it was a lot harder to run. Only a few decks will actually be able to run Blood Moon, mono-Red Stompy being one of them, and they're all pretty bad right now so it's not like we'd be improving the best decks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.
Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.
[two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."
See where this leads?
[EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.
Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.
Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.
[two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."
See where this leads?
[EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.
Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
Not assuming that at all...it was just a theoretical observation. Of course lands would adapt.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
in this ridiculous scenario, i think it's probably overlooked that price of progress would be a staple of non-burn decks looking for some more reach. also, burn would be likely a tier 1 deck if people still chose to play these 3-4 color decks with no fetches.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.
Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.
[two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."
See where this leads?
[EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.
Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
I do not know your meta, but Wasteland is played everywhere at the moment. And no one is screaming ban Wasteland. According to MtgTop8 Wasteland is present in 43% of the decks, which is very close to the number you used.
Brainstorm 55%
Ponder 52%
FoW 49%
Delta 48%
Wasteland 43%
Volc 39.5%
DRS 37.5%
U-Sea 37.5%
Trop 34.5%
Rainforest 34.2%
Tarn 32.3%
...
Daze 21%
Spyglass is a great card, but I did not see and abundance of it.
If I play Eldrazi, today, I can go Ancient Tomb -> spyglass (see 2x Delta) -> name delta-> game over.
But I see a decline in Eldrazi recently. Maybe in Robots it might be a thing.
Even Chalice of the void, which is the best tax against Xerox Decks is played in 13.6% of decks.
So I do not understand your point. According to MtgTop8 Eldrazi has 6% of the metagame and Robots was played once or twice in the last two month. This is based on public data shared by WotC and other organisers.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mistercakes
in this ridiculous scenario, i think it's probably overlooked that price of progress would be a staple of non-burn decks looking for some more reach. also, burn would be likely a tier 1 deck if people still chose to play these 3-4 color decks with no fetches.
I guess PoP would just go in line with Bloodmoon, Magus, Ghost Quarter, Back to Basics & Co for punishing greedy manabases with a dozen duals. I don't think that pushing some punishing mechanics is a bad thing per sé. I am more concerned with the fact that greedy 4c decks seem to get away so easily in our current meta despite all the tools in the pool, thanks to DRS and the usual manafixing
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I am more concerned with the fact that greedy 4c decks seem to get away so easily in our current meta despite all the tools in the pool, thanks to DRS and the usual manafixing
I share your concern about this. It's a similar problem to the one we had a year ago, only this one looks worse (though it certainly plays better) because the decks are both kitchen-sink and max-value at the same time. I think there's a deeper problem that's really difficult to remedy, though. Sure, the lands and creatures (well, three of the creatures) are driving 4c decks, but the only one that really helps their color situation is Deathrite, for which I still don't think we need a ban. I'm leaving aside fetchlands for the purpose of this post, though I'm happy to discuss them further.
The major issue is that none of these decks would function without pushed creatures printed over the past six years. I've said it before and I'll say it again: when Wizards decided(!) that noncreature spells were too strong and that creatures weren't strong enough, they could've done three things:
—Print better creatures
—Stop printing such powerful spells
—Print better creatures and worse spells
They went with the third option, and it really, really shows. None of these creatures—Deathrite Shaman, Leovold, Delver, Emrakul, G-Brand, True-Name Nemesis (LOL)—would be nearly as good if comparable tools for stopping them were still hitting shelves. That would be bad for Legacy for obvious reasons, but there's also option 2: just stop printing things like Brainstorm that get everybody panty-twisted around here because they let you draw cards, but also don't print a 2-mana 6/7; that would be stupid. (Tempora mutantur sed nihil mutant.) There was never any excuse for throttling forward creatures the way they did, and all the problems people have with a lack of format diversity and deckbuilding innovation go straight back to that. It's all value, all the time if you want to win. As an aside, that's what happens when you complain about control decks. I'm guilty, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matsu
I do not know your meta, but Wasteland is played everywhere at the moment. And no one is screaming ban Wasteland. According to MtgTop8 Wasteland is present in 43% of the decks, which is very close to the number you used. . . . Spyglass is a great card, but I did not see and abundance of it. If I play Eldrazi, today, I can go Ancient Tomb -> spyglass (see 2x Delta) -> name delta-> game over. . . . So I do not understand your point.
First of all, we're talking about where the meta would go, not where the meta is right now, so if you won't work with that, there's nothing to discuss.
Wasteland gets significantly stronger when you have to wait a turn to use your Mirage-block fetchlands. The fact that they take a turn to use makes Spyglass significantly better because not only can you—on the draw!—play Spyglass, look at the opponent's hand, and name the Mirage fetch that hurts the opponent the most based on their T1 land drop and the contents of their hand, you can do that on the first turn. So yes, Eldrazi gets a HUGE boost against anything that's not monocolored. Or you can Wasteland the opponent before they can activate their fetch. And if the opponent sticks with Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse, it doesn't help them much because they can only find basics, and they throw all their T1 plays as a matter of course. I'm fine with more people's playing basics, but I'm absolutely not fine with losing any number of decks that couldn't exist in any other format because the fixing sucks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
I share...
Agree with everything you said^+1
I believe it is possible to turn Legacy into a no fetch format, unless WotC starts to hit those "iconic"creatures with the BanHammer.
Which might upset more people then we think.
