[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I got bored so I actually checked possibilities from DeckCheck. I noticed that a lot of top4 decks are packing Iona on main as a DR target. A lot of people are also not using Darkblast on main anymore.

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I'm in love with maindeck Iona. It's the reason I started playing this deck. It's BROKEN. It's a slower FKZ that still wins the game but doesn't depend on Bridge from Below, which is a huge plus. Zealot helps only against storm combo, but they're still a turn ahead since they have a faster clock. IMHO, Zealot only belongs to a LED shell, because it can exploit its innate speed.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

What is the general consensus when it comess to DR targets here? Also, for information purposes, Digital Devil used 3 Darkblasts on the side.

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Personally, I think 4 GGT + Iona is enough. I don't want my deck to be filled with useless cards, so Iona is the only creature whose single purpose is to be reanimated, while in the worst case GGT is a Dredge-6 creature. About Darkblast... when building a deck, just look at my lists, then do differently: you'll perform greatly, I swear XD XD

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

On the sideboard, like what Anusien mentioned, should we concentrate with spells or DR targets? No doubt that Terrastodon is a powerhouse but outside of that, are Angel of Despair and FKZ worth the SB spot? Unmask and Forces seems tempting on the side.

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I dislike both Woodfall Primus and Terastodon - they deal with permanents which are already dealt with Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge. If they have a Leyline, you're not Dread Returning a single creature. If they have Crypt/Relic, they just pop up their artifact in response. There still are Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge/Moat/Elephant Grass/Wheel of Sun and Moon/Whatever, but then Nature's Claim is better, since it's cheaper and INSTANT. If you play Terastodon/Primus, you have to do that in your mainphase. If you play EOT Nature's Claim, you can use that same Dread Return for Iona, for Eternal Witness to recur your used Nature's Claim, all this while not giving your opponent a single 3/3, or wasting sideboard slots with Primus. Also, remember an important thing: you're wasting an attack, since your DR targets don't have haste. Since this deck is capable of doing 10+ damage in a single turn, it means you're throwing away a chance to win. Ok, Terastodon is huge and deals with problematic permanents all at once, while Primus depends on Cabal Therapy/Dread Return to destroy a second permanent. Agreed, if I had to choose between Primus/Terastodon, I'd pick Terastodon. But I don't want to be too redundant, I want some "omnibus rebus responsum" cards. So, I want Angel of Despair. Angel of Despair is good, since you can play it to kill itself and eventually generate an insane number of zombies (in case you need more blockers than you have); Angel of Despair is Ichorid food; Angel of Despair flies; most importantly, Angel of Despair also deals with creatures. There are only a few creatures which are a pain for us, but I don't want to occasionally scoop because of a Windborn Muse, Phyrexian Dreadnought or anything dangerous. Anyway, Jailer/Gaddock Teeg/Meddling Mage still die to Darkblast(s).

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

There was a discussion on Chain of Vapor vs. Nature's Claim. I do agree that dealing with a problem artifact or enchantment permanently is better than dealing with it for a turn. That in turn, I also believe we should pack some sort of creature hate on the SB.

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Maybe I'm the only one here, but I find Claim to be better than Chain. We don't have the explosiveness of LED Ichorid to hope to win outright. Also, I believe most players pack Chain in their sb because our Vintage counterpart does so. This is Legacy: you bounce their hate, they re-play it the very next turn; you destroy their hate, they're screwed forever.

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Originally Posted by Exospaciac

Anusien is right, and no, I don't think FKZ is worth the spot. I never once DR'ed him. Iona also did not seem worth the slot. I'd reanimate her, but at that point the only thing that would have kept me from winning with a Troll would have been something like topdecked Plow. She's definitely win more.

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Imagine a scenario where you have the chance to fast-Dread Return a creature. Troll dies to everything and can be chump blocked, Iona wins the same turn it enters the battlefield, and if your opponent is still willing to continue the game, it is a 7/7 with flying. You're right about Zealot, since to win with it, you need to be ahead. Iona, though, seals both games you're winning and makes you win games you were losing. I have empyrical proof about this.
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P.S. All this obviously IMHO.

Cool, thanks for the info Digital Devil!

Back to Sideboarding:

Instead of using Darkblast as a creature removal, what about Swords to Plowshares, possibly Path to Exile? With no Chain of Vapour on the side, how do we deal with a resolved reanimated creature naming black? I figured since we are already producing any color, why not pick the white option? Yes, it does gain the opponent life but doesn't Nature's Claim do that anyways? Also, with StP or PtE, your target can be any size and they do not hit the 'yard.

This is Digital Devil's SB:

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus

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This would be my ideal side:

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4 Nature's Claim
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair/Terastodon/Woodfall Primus (still contemplating on which one)
2 Open Slot (possibly Unmask or Force of Will)

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Any comments?

Without some form of Primus/Terastodon/Angel of Despair, you can't really beat Lands or Enchantress in game 1. And you're going to struggle against Stax and Ghostly Prison as well.

Iona is almost certainly better against combo, but that's the only matchup it is. If you get a chance to Dread Return against combo, you're probably doing alright anyway. And post-board, Ancestor's Chosen is a fine Dread Return target to bring in because it gains you a million life. Iona seems awesome. But I don't think it's significantly better than reanimating something else, and there is a steep opportunity cost. I am just not impressed with Iona's ability to not be a blank during most of the game. I don't really want a single dedicated DR target, but at least Angel and Terastodon get you out of bad matchups.

Also, reanimating Angel of Despair to kill itself is about the worst idea I've ever heard.

Honestly, the only Dread Return targets I think are non-awful: Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Angel of Despair, Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp.

@Anusien
1. Stinkweed Imp? Why is he not awful? I'm new to the deck, so I don't really have any evidence for this, but...what makes him non-awful? I kind of think Thug would be a better choice to DR.
2. How do you lay out your GY? I've been trounced by the rules, so how do you do it?

Also, in general:
There is someone in my meta who plays Enlightened Tutor control. It's kind of funky, and rather budget, but there is one combo i'm rather afraid of, and that is Academy Ruins+Crypt. Should I board in Leyline for this MU to prevent those shenanigans? He also uses Grindstone as a win-con, any tips?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

@Anusien
1. Stinkweed Imp? Why is he not awful? I'm new to the deck, so I don't really have any evidence for this, but...what makes him non-awful?

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I have put Stinkweed Imp in front of Emrakul. Suck it.

I have put Stinkweed Imp in front of Blazing Archon against Reanimator. Suck it. Reanimator basically can't win through Stinkweed Imp, which gives you inevitability if you have some way to win in your 60.

I would not run Leyline against CB/Top decks. If the game goes long, they're gonna win no matter which ridiculously slow setup spells they use. Over-sideboarding to answer some of these comboes instead of running aggressive cards is going to wreck you. So if you pack Leyline, you're more likely to not win quickly and end up in the late game where they can blow you out with Humility/Moat/whatever.

I have been thoroughly pwned. XD
*EDIT: just answered

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

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Why would Swords/Path to better than Chain of Vapor against her? As I see it, you just give them 7 life or a land instead of giving them a dead card in hand. Iona only gets cheated into play, and it's not very likely that she will reappear anytime soon if she gets bounced.

I won in the face of 'Iona on black' 2 games in a row yesterday vs. Reanimator. I had chump fliers to block and could just race them easily. Blazing Archon is scarier IMO, as I had no pre-SB answers. With SB I DR'd an Angel of Despair to kill Archon and swing for the win. This was after losing about 40 cards thanks to Ravenous Trap (grr). Keeping a Dredger in hand at all times ftw!

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

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I can't see why just bouncing her, even for one turn, isn't effective. You should be able to go off during the turn she's gone, and after that, you don't need any spells. All Iona on black does is prevent us from DRing a huge troll back, but really, who cares about that when you have zombie hordes and recurring Ichorids?

Archon isn't too bad either. Just build up dudes, Therapy the countermagic away, eot bounce, and swing for the win.

I've been doing a lot of goldfishing lately, and I've been seeing quite a few of what I consider crap hands. I was wondering if anyone would mind if I posted 5 different sample hands, along with their subsequent mulligans if I choose to take them. I'd like critique on that, but I don't want to clog up the boards. Does anyone have a problem with it?

Also, with respect to (nameless one):
Personally, I think Chain is a catch-all answer. It bounces everything, from Iona, to Yixlid Jailer, to Moat. Chain only takes 4 slots, whereas your proposed SB takes up 8 to deal w/ problem permanents.

@ Bakofried,

Why is that even a question? You're not clogging up the board... I mean, I don't consider working on an optimal build clogging... Feel free and post the hands you think are worth keeping and the hands you think are worth mulling. I'm interested

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Also, reanimating Angel of Despair to kill itself is about the worst idea I've ever heard.

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I'm not pretending someone else's going to do that, because it only works if you are at 1 life, you have 3 Bridge from Below in your graveyard and 3 non-token creatures on the battlefield, and your opponent has 12 creatures. It happened to me while playing against a deck packing Empty the Warrens. I won that game thanks to this otherwise awful move... it's not that I'm playing Angel only to do that, since it's just a deep-space-corner case. Also,

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

when building a deck, just look at my lists, then do differently: you'll perform greatly, I swear.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Honestly, the only Dread Return targets I think are non-awful: Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Angel of Despair, Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp.

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I agree.

Ok, so first I pile shuffle, (5 across 3 down) then I riffle shuffle a few times. For reference, I'm using frogboy's list.
First Hand:
Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Gemstone Min, Gemstone Mine
I think I should mulligan this. I could draw into a dredger with the study, but I might not, which would be a pain.
Mull to Six:
Bridge, Ichorid, Careful Study, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, Gemstone Mine
I'm fairly certain this is a keeper. The Study will at least drop an Imp; this might lead to turn 2 awesome breakthrough (unless I get a bad dredge)
Did I mulligan correctly? Goldfishing the first few turns says no. First turn I Studied into Tarnished Citadel+something unimportant, discarding Bridge+Imp. The dredge turned up poor, hitting Bridges, and a Therapy+DR, but nothing else with dredge. I Therapy myself (correct play, or no?) to dump the Imp with Ichorid and Breakthrough in hand, I go to Breakthrough, and whiff. Should I have held off, and dredged during my draw step first? Is whiffing on Breakthrough as big a disaster as I'm imagining? Or should I care less?
Second Hand:
Cabal Therapy x2, DR, Gemstone, Citadel, Study, Ichorid.
Again, no dredger. I have a Study to dig for one, and possibly Therapies to dump them if I draw them later, but it doesn't look promising. I'm shipping it back.
Mull to Six:
Ichorid (he's always in my opener, for some reason) Careful Study, Tribe, Mine, City, Coliseum.
I'm shipping it back; no dredger.
Mull to Five:
Tribe x3, Narc x2.
Nuff said.
Mull to Four:
Tribe, Darkblast, Therapy, Mine.
I have an outlet, a dredger, and land. I'm not taking any chances on going beneath 4. How do the first couple turns go? Well, my first dredge hits double troll, so I'm happy.
Third Hand:
GGT, Stinkweed, Therapy, Bridge, Ichorid (WTF), Darkblast, Coliseum.
Well, if I was on the draw, I might keep it, but not on the play. Let's assume I'm on the play.
Mull to Six:
PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Imp, Narc.
No.
Mull to Five:
PImp, Darkblast, Breakthrough, Narc, Mine.
The dredge count may be minimal, but I have a perm. outlet along with a draw spell. I can't resist.
At this point I need to stop for the night. Let me know what you think though. Here are my main concerns/questions:
1. When do you draw, and when do you dredge? Do you always dredge? Or do you try to peel a land sometimes?
2. Zombie tokens - How valuable are they? If I've only hit 1 Bridge but have 3 Cabal Therapies+1 DR in the GY, and a PImp, Narc x2 on the field, should I reanimate a troll, or hold off?
3. Draw spells. Should I be afraid to blow them occasionally?

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Originally Posted by bakofried

First Hand:
Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Gemstone Min, Gemstone Mine
I think I should mulligan this. I could draw into a dredger with the study, but I might not, which would be a pain.

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I would have mulled to 6, too.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Mull to Six:
Bridge, Ichorid, Careful Study, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, Gemstone Mine
I'm fairly certain this is a keeper. The Study will at least drop an Imp; this might lead to turn 2 awesome breakthrough (unless I get a bad dredge)
Did I mulligan correctly? Goldfishing the first few turns says no. First turn I Studied into Tarnished Citadel+something unimportant, discarding Bridge+Imp. The dredge turned up poor, hitting Bridges, and a Therapy+DR, but nothing else with dredge. I Therapy myself (correct play, or no?) to dump the Imp with Ichorid and Breakthrough in hand, I go to Breakthrough, and whiff. Should I have held off, and dredged during my draw step first? Is whiffing on Breakthrough as big a disaster as I'm imagining? Or should I care less?

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Guess you were unlucky. Since this is sort of an enigma, you might want to say if you are on the play or on the draw. I dislike goldfishing because you always play as if you were on the play, but sometimes you lose the die roll, and sometimes you want to draw first. Assuming it is pure goldfishing, I would have done your same exact moves. Don't know if it would have been bad, but in your same exact situation (dredging chaff and nothing with Dredge) I would still have Therapied myself naming Imp, and then played Breakthrough, since that is the only way to chain dredgers and recover from previous bad mills. Of course it's goldfishing.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Second Hand:
Cabal Therapy x2, DR, Gemstone, Citadel, Study, Ichorid.
Again, no dredger. I have a Study to dig for one, and possibly Therapies to dump them if I draw them later, but it doesn't look promising. I'm shipping it back.

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It's a risky keep, but I think it's mandatory to mull.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Mull to Six:
Ichorid (he's always in my opener, for some reason) Careful Study, Tribe, Mine, City, Coliseum.
I'm shipping it back; no dredger.

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I'm shipping it back, too - this hand is much like the first, except it has one card less. If I didn't keep the first, why should I play with this? I do admit Tribe in the opener is tempting, though... Maybe if I weren't playing in solo mode and were on the draw against some slow deck I would have kept, but I'm not 100% sure about it.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Mull to Five:
Tribe x3, Narc x2.
Nuff said.

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XD

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Mull to Four:
Tribe, Darkblast, Therapy, Mine.
I have an outlet, a dredger, and land. I'm not taking any chances on going beneath 4. How do the first couple turns go? Well, my first dredge hits double troll, so I'm happy.

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Pretty good draw for a 4 card hand. I would have kept this too, but my moves would change depending on against which deck I would challenge at the moment. While goldfishing, it's still pretty good.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Third Hand:
GGT, Stinkweed, Therapy, Bridge, Ichorid (WTF), Darkblast, Coliseum.
Well, if I was on the draw, I might keep it, but not on the play. Let's assume I'm on the play.

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Right.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Mull to Six:
PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Imp, Narc.
No.

Mull to Five:
PImp, Darkblast, Breakthrough, Narc, Mine.
The dredge count may be minimal, but I have a perm. outlet along with a draw spell. I can't resist.

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I'm keeping too.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

1. When do you draw, and when do you dredge? Do you always dredge? Or do you try to peel a land sometimes?
2. Zombie tokens - How valuable are they? If I've only hit 1 Bridge but have 3 Cabal Therapies+1 DR in the GY, and a PImp, Narc x2 on the field, should I reanimate a troll, or hold off?
3. Draw spells. Should I be afraid to blow them occasionally?

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1. Against matchups like Stax/Enchantress, I sometimes need to draw that Nature's Claim, or that rainbow land to cast it. But don't bother me, I often mull aggressively until I have an answer, then dredge until I have a dominant board position, hoping to seal the game before they establish their lock, then if I can't win I sometimes cross my fingers to draw an out instead of dredging. Most times I do dredge, unless I know my opponent has a Ravenous Trap... and I also start to draw when my opponent has a Leyline/Wheel of Sun and Moon, but that one is obvious =)
2. You have to do some maths in order to understand what you should sacrifice to DR. If you fear some sweeper (Wrath/Deed, for example), you sometimes want to sacrifice your Zombies, so if they sweep the board, and you have Bridge(s) in your graveyard, you still get some zombie tokens to continue the aggro plan the next turn. And sometimes you want to sacrifice your 3 non-token creatures because you have 2/3/4 Bridges in your graveyard, and want to put a million of Zombies into play. I guess it depends on the situation.
3. I sometimes play blind Careful Studies, because I find them to be the less important cards in the deck (and I almost always side them out g2)... but be sure that I won't play Breakthrough unless I have 1/2 dredgers in my graveyard.
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Obviously I speak because I need to improve, too, so don't take seriously what I said.

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

3. I sometimes play blind Careful Studies, because I find them to be the less important cards in the deck (and I almost always side them out g2)... but be sure that I won't play Breakthrough unless I have 1/2 dredgers in my graveyard.

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This is one thing I disagree with. In my testing and experience I've found Careful Study to be one of our most valuable cards, especially in postboard games. Next to Cabal Therapy I would say Study is actually the most misplayed card in the deck. Study allows you to rebuild quickly after getting your graveyard wiped without committing your entire hand, and digs for that second land.

I often see player s spending their draw spells when they already have a commanding board position. Over committing resources from your hand to the yard is the easiest way to maximize the efficiency of your opponent’s Crypts/Relics/Traps/Bogs/whatevers.

This is not to say there won’t be times when it is correct to use all of your draw spells early in a postboard game. But in my mind those situations generally involve hands that have no other discard, matchups where finding another land is paramount, or faster opposing decks with no real way to dig – and still only after you’ve seen their hand or are facing heavy pressure.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

This is one thing I disagree with. In my testing and experience I've found Careful Study to be one of our most valuable cards, especially in postboard games. Next to Cabal Therapy I would say Study is actually the most misplayed card in the deck. Study allows you to rebuild quickly after getting your graveyard wiped without committing your entire hand, and digs for that second land.

I often see player s spending their draw spells when they already have a commanding board position. Over committing resources from your hand to the yard is the easiest way to maximize the efficiency of your opponent’s Crypts/Relics/Traps/Bogs/whatevers.

This is not to say there won’t be times when it is correct to use all of your draw spells early in a postboard game. But in my mind those situations generally involve hands that have no other discard, matchups where finding another land is paramount, or faster opposing decks with no real way to dig – and still only after you’ve seen their hand or are facing heavy pressure.

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I agree with the fact that Careful Study can help finding our anti-hate cards, but what are you siding out, then? Dredgers? Bridges? I think the same exact things you said about Breakthrough, except you have to pay 1 mana more if you want to keep your Chains/Claims, but you dig twice deeper. So, I side out Studies.

Hey guys,

I finally finished a dredge list that I would like to start trying out and was wondering what your thoughts were. I don't know if its just me, but when I play the deck with Ichorids only I find that it takes me too long to be able to dredge return something - so I've really been trying to get Bloodghasts in the deck. I read the first page and then from 81-93, and I haven't really seen (or remember... the two in a list) so please let me know if something is going greviously wrong ;p


4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 FKZ
1 Iona

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 BFB

4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Realm Razer


So the list has 12 dredgers, which I think feels correct - except two of them only dredge 2. I'm also not really happy about not having Tireless Tribes, but I figure that I "gain" life due to not running Tarnished Citadel - still I would like to run them if I could fit them somewhere ;( I also have around 10 black creatures that I don't mind removing to Ichorid; and 27 creatures total (6 good DR targets). Although, I need help with sideboarding. Note: I often take out my "explosive" cards for SBing in order to get trump cards - I don't know if this is correct.

I often don't know what they are going to bring in, so against Zoo/aggro decks (and change DR targets): +2 Firestorm, +3 Grudge, -3 Careful Study, -2 Breakthrough.
Against lands/loam/reanimate - bring in leylines, take out MD reanimation targets and 2 careful study (if reanimate), take out 3 study/2 break if loam/lands (assuming they are on bojuka bog plan almost exclusively, bring in razer - no FKZ). Against any control type deck bring in chains/terastodon.

So, give me some pointers!

Thanks.

A few things about your list:

1. I'm not convinced by Bloodghast. I've had no problems getting a Dread Return target on turn 2 consistently with just 3 Ichorids and 4 Narcomoebas (using frogboy's list). Don't be afraid to sacrifice Zombies to get your huge DR target. Yes, there are times where I have to wait a turn to Dread Return, but usually I Therapy my opponent out and make sure they can't do anything so my next turn is safe.

2. The two Dread Return targets you run maindeck are, in my opinion, not worth running. Both of them are win more. Flame-Kin Zealot only helps race combo (if they haven't gone off in your face before you DR it) and while Iona wins games, a 20/20 Troll wins almost all of those same games. You already have Cabal Therapies to make sure your opponent can't play any good spells. Iona is overkill.

If you want to maindeck Dread Return targets, go with either Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. This will help your Lands, Stax, and Enchantress matchups G1. Everything else but combo is already at your mercy G1.

This is all just IMO, but it's mostly stuff I've learned from the others in this thread.